A new beginning?

foxylock

Hi guys,

My first post here, although I've been having the odd sneaky read with a while. I'm in search of some info, maybe even encouragement!!

A couple of months ago my uncle died sudden and left his house and farm to me. It's no Southfork but it is and has been my place of refuge for many years now. Although I live twenty miles away from it with my wife and son ..... and another one on the way, it's the only place I ever felt a sense of belonging to, I practically grew up there and all my happy childhood memories are in some form or another related to this "Homestead". I suppose there's nothing like the reading of a will to create hassle in a family and this one is no different, however I think most of the issues and "grabbers" have been sorted now. My wife works full time and I'm in the construction industry so work is a bit hit and miss although at the moment I'm pretty busy.

"So what brings you here?" I hear you cry. Well, the farm is near derelict: the fields are ran out, ditches are growing twenty feet into each field, not a swinging gate to be seen and 90% of the fences are, well, horizontal. The farm has been operating at a loss for many years and I suppose ill health prevented the uncle from doing much at all and his stubborn pride took care of the rest. The one real positive aspect is the flock of sheep are in fantastic condition, no expense was ever spared in healthcare and the results are plain to see and a tribute to the man who has gone before me.

This is becoming very wordy so I better wrap it up! I need advice as to where to go from here. I want to make it a viable enterprise and am not one bit afraid of hard work, I know a bit about sheep as I was the only nephew who ever helped the uncle out. But I lack knowledge of marts, paperwork, grants, etc. As regards investment I can afford to put about ten grand into the place for a start and take it from there as I can't afford to gamble my families future either and the kids need protecting. Has anyone of you guys ever been in a similar position, are sheep profitable, so many questions so little time!!

I like to view things in as positive a light as possible, but coping with the loss of a great friend and uncle is difficult enough without the uncertainty brought by this inheritance. There have been some dark days the past few months but hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel, hopefully it will be a new beginning.

It's gettin late thanks for reading and all advice would be sincerely appreciated.

Keeperlit

From your post you already have a good base flock of ewes and have up to ten grand to invest so you are half way there already!A bit of maintenance and it wont be long before you have the place back in shape but patience is key Rome wasnt built in a day!Best of luck with it and hope it works out

funny man

What a good story and so well told, but sentiment will not pay the bills so you have a choice of making money from the land or using as a hobby, now i'm guessing that there is no housing on the land and if it's in such a dilapidated state that it would take alot more than 10k to sort it out. If you want to make money from it i'd suggest renting it out to someone who will reseed and fence it for a few years rent free and after that a long term lease will allow you to earn money tax free, if it's marginal land forestry may be an option you could also retain the house and a couple of acres if you were interested in a small enterprise.

yog1

Keeperlit wrote: »

Rome wasnt built in a day!

this is the most important bit of advice you'll ever get imo, take your time and invest wisely, do you intend to keep the sheep, do you still want to work your job,
sheep is a great trade at the minute and it might be an option to sell SOME of the sheep to fund the investment into the farm, use the money from this to fix fences and get things back into order, then maybe let the ground to someone you trust won't farm the life out of it for a few years, keep re-investing the rent into the farm and in 5yr you'll see some change, all this might also mean that you might not have to invest the full 10k you have and it might make the change into farming a little less hectic, if thats what you want to do
i'm not trying to tell you what to do, and its only a suggestion, i got threw in at the deep end, with working a full time job as a spark one day then farming the next, it was a big change and took me over 2 years to fully understand what i had took on, and even now i'm struggling to keep up with the lessons, it's a whole different world, learning about livestock and what way to manage the land was one thing, then came the business side of paperwork, grants, banking on only getting paid once a year, and thinking of a long term plan, NOT easy, just take your time and study everything out, don't rush to do too much like i did and end up digging a hole and wondering if you'll ever get out, sleepless nights are not fun,
best of luck with whatever decision you make, and you came to the right place for advice, helpful lot here and don't seem to want too much back in exchange,

Bizzum

Hi Foxylock, welcome aboard!

What scale are we talking about here? For example 25 acres with ten grand investment would be a completely different prospect to 250 acres with the same money available as investment.
Again a flock of 25 would have different requirements to a larger flock.
Tell us a little more. What if any facilities have you available? Any machinery etc?

The very best of luck with it all!

just do it

foxylock wrote: »

I live twenty miles away from it with my wife and son ..... and another one on the way.

I'd agree with the suggestions above, and certainly unless you intend moving closer. Talk to the local auctioneer, neighbours etc and hold onto the 10k. Rent it for free under the conditions that who ever takes it on brings it back to its former glory - fencing, reseeding etc. You can be involved in this process without having to lug over and back to the place every day.

Aside from the money hours and hours will disappear on you, and be demanded of you, to do this work yourself. And what if your next job is 40 miles in the other direction? Or you've no job for a while and need to fall back on savings?

Good luck what ever you decide.

Figerty

Get a good accountant. 10K cash can go a long way if you use you tax system very well. You will be making returns, have capital allowances and will be able to offset the costs against you and your wifes accounts. 10K could turn into 15 to 20K effectively. I buy nuts to feed the cow instead of buying extra bales; You wont get a receipt for bales of farmers!

So getting receipts, claiming back VAT etc. will be as important as working your rear end off straighening up the place.

If it was me, I start by making the place as secure as possible for the stock so that if you are not around they are safe and secure.

Secondly, I'd then consider restoring drainage and then development.

If there is a house on site, you could look at restoring it and renting it out long term.

It sounds like this place is a refuge for you, and thats not a bad thing these days, who know in time it might be a place to move to.

rancher

foxylock wrote: »

Hi guys,

My first post here, although I've been having the odd sneaky read with a while. I'm in search of some info, maybe even encouragement!!

A couple of months ago my uncle died sudden and left his house and farm to me. It's no Southfork but it is and has been my place of refuge for many years now. Although I live twenty miles away from it with my wife and son ..... and another one on the way, it's the only place I ever felt a sense of belonging to, I practically grew up there and all my happy childhood memories are in some form or another related to this "Homestead". I suppose there's nothing like the reading of a will to create hassle in a family and this one is no different, however I think most of the issues and "grabbers" have been sorted now. My wife works full time and I'm in the construction industry so work is a bit hit and miss although at the moment I'm pretty busy.

"So what brings you here?" I hear you cry. Well, the farm is near derelict: the fields are ran out, ditches are growing twenty feet into each field, not a swinging gate to be seen and 90% of the fences are, well, horizontal. The farm has been operating at a loss for many years and I suppose ill health prevented the uncle from doing much at all and his stubborn pride took care of the rest. The one real positive aspect is the flock of sheep are in fantastic condition, no expense was ever spared in healthcare and the results are plain to see and a tribute to the man who has gone before me.

This is becoming very wordy so I better wrap it up! I need advice as to where to go from here. I want to make it a viable enterprise and am not one bit afraid of hard work, I know a bit about sheep as I was the only nephew who ever helped the uncle out. But I lack knowledge of marts, paperwork, grants, etc. As regards investment I can afford to put about ten grand into the place for a start and take it from there as I can't afford to gamble my families future either and the kids need protecting. Has anyone of you guys ever been in a similar position, are sheep profitable, so many questions so little time!!

I like to view things in as positive a light as possible, but coping with the loss of a great friend and uncle is difficult enough without the uncertainty brought by this inheritance. There have been some dark days the past few months but hopefully there's light at the end of the tunnel, hopefully it will be a new beginning.

It's gettin late thanks for reading and all advice would be sincerely appreciated.

If it was mine, I would go with the sheep. They will give you the best return on your investment. I would keep one acre for every three to four ewes that i had,and try to fence that block properly for sheep. It's likely that you're going to have a crop of lambs this year so you'll have some income.
In the next two months I would get as much hedges cut as I could and rent out the land that's left, for tillage would be best if its ploughable, also guys who rent land for tillage are much more professional and will build up the fertility, also they might take out a few ditches. You will also have some income there
Going forward I would try to get a shed or even a tunnel up to get the sheep aff the land for the winter and for your own comfort for lambing, also sign up to teagasc, they will keep you on track with regulations.
I am not an agri advisor,but it's what I would do and I hope its some help

Incidentally I'd guess that selling sheep, that you got for nothing. to fund investment would not be tax efficient, in that you would have to pay tax on the sheep, and then when you use the money for capital expense, could only claim it back over seven years.

Tipp Man

Bizzum wrote: »

Hi Foxylock, welcome aboard!

What scale are we talking about here? For example 25 acres with ten grand investment would be a completely different prospect to 250 acres with the same money available as investment.
Again a flock of 25 would have different requirements to a larger flock.
Tell us a little more. What if any facilities have you available? Any machinery etc?

The very best of luck with it all!

Hard to see how anybody can give advice when we have no idea of the scale, quality of land etc

rancher

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hard to see how anybody can give advice when we have no idea of the scale, quality of land etc

If you read his letter,you'll see 1) he knows something about sheep and whatever hope he has of making a go of this,it will have to be something he knows about. 2) he is short on investment capital so he'll need an income straight away. 3) even when lambs were only 70 euros I was making 30 euros per ewe NET profit so the system will not lose money when the inevitable price drop in agri commodities does come.

5live

rancher wrote: »

If it was mine, I would go with the sheep. They will give you the best return on your investment. I would keep one acre for every three to four ewes that i had,and try to fence that block properly for sheep. It's likely that you're going to have a crop of lambs this year so you'll have some income.
In the next two months I would get as much hedges cut as I could and rent out the land that's left, for tillage would be best if its ploughable, also guys who rent land for tillage are much more professional and will build up the fertility, also they might take out a few ditches. You will also have some income there
Going forward I would try to get a shed or even a tunnel up to get the sheep aff the land for the winter and for your own comfort for lambing, also sign up to teagasc, they will keep you on track with regulations.
I am not an agri advisor,but it's what I would do and I hope its some help

Incidentally I'd guess that selling sheep, that you got for nothing. to fund investment would not be tax efficient, in that you would have to pay tax on the sheep, and then when you use the money for capital expense, could only claim it back over seven years.

This is the trouble with advice online. This may need planning permission and replanting of equivalent lengths of hedging in another location.

As a few others said, foxylock, a bit more info on land quality and facilities and also if your uncle was in receipt of Single Farm Payments and if you are in a Disadvantaged Area would help in giving advice.

Finally, welcome to the forum and happy farming to you:)

Tipp Man

rancher wrote: »

If you read his letter,you'll see 1) he knows something about sheep and whatever hope he has of making a go of this,it will have to be something he knows about. 2) he is short on investment capital so he'll need an income straight away. 3) even when lambs were only 70 euros I was making 30 euros per ewe NET profit so the system will not lose money when the inevitable price drop in agri commodities does come.

If he only has 10 acres at 5 ewes per acre - that's 50 ewes @ your 30 profit per ewe gives a whopping 1500 NET profit, lets double it as lambs are doing well, thats a whopping 3k NET profit. He'll do well to bring up a family on that if he needs to.

He'd spend it on petrol to drive the 40 mile round trip every day to the farm. :rolleyes:

More details needed before you go taking out any ditches or the like

JohnBoy

agreed.

more details needed, how big is the farm and how many sheep.

I would agree with the suggestion of renting at least some of it. it will bring you cashflow to invest over the coming years.

I dont know how feasible sheep farming at 20 miles reach will be though. what state is the house in?

funny man

Figerty wrote: »

Get a good accountant. 10K cash can go a long way if you use you tax system very well. You will be making returns, have capital allowances and will be able to offset the costs against you and your wifes accounts. 10K could turn into 15 to 20K effectively. I buy nuts to feed the cow instead of buying extra bales; You wont get a receipt for bales of farmers!

So getting receipts, claiming back VAT etc. will be as important as working your rear end off straighening up the place.

If it was me, I start by making the place as secure as possible for the stock so that if you are not around they are safe and secure.

Secondly, I'd then consider restoring drainage and then development.

If there is a house on site, you could look at restoring it and renting it out long term.

It sounds like this place is a refuge for you, and thats not a bad thing these days, who know in time it might be a place to move to.

Firstly figerty as self employed people we do a self assesment tax this allows us to do the accounting so you can buy bales and include them as a cost, you don't need receipts unless it was paid for in cash. it's only in an audit situation you may be requested to provide proof of purchase but a cheque stubb wii surfice.
I would urge cation in a situation like this as i reckon we are in for a good few very bad years and to be advising someone to spend spend spend is a dangerous thing as the ROI (return on investment) on the 10k will be minimal plus a farm as most of us know is a bottomless pit when it comes to spending money and for someone with a young family, depending on work (no job is now secure) to pay the bills i would liken this to playing with fire.
On the sheep yea 500 ewes ave €26/ewe €13000, some work for that money before tax/prsi/usc capital invest and then the big one we all forget our own labour.

Juniorhurler

funny man wrote: »

Firstly figerty as self employed people we do a self assesment tax this allows us to do the accounting so you can buy bales and include them as a cost, you don't need receipts unless it was paid for in cash. it's only in an audit situation you may be requested to provide proof of purchase but a cheque stubb wii surfice.
I would urge cation in a situation like this as i reckon we are in for a good few very bad years and to be advising someone to spend spend spend is a dangerous thing as the ROI (return on investment) on the 10k will be minimal plus a farm as most of us know is a bottomless pit when it comes to spending money and for someone with a young family, depending on work (no job is now secure) to pay the bills i would liken this to playing with fire.
On the sheep yea 500 ewes ave €26/ewe €13000, some work for that money before tax/prsi/usc capital invest and then the big one we all forget our own labour.

Sure isn't our own labour free!!:D

blue5000

Hi Foxylock welcome to boards and farming:)

Without more info all I can say is make sure the bounds are fenced, at least this will help with the neighbours. Simple way to do this is get a fencing contractor in, the other way is get a contractor in to drive the strainers, and you do the rest yourself.

Good thing about sheep is you can build up numbers fairly quickly without buying in.

rancher

5live wrote: »

This is the trouble with advice online. This may need planning permission and replanting of equivalent lengths of hedging in another location.

As a few others said, foxylock, a bit more info on land quality and facilities and also if your uncle was in receipt of Single Farm Payments and if you are in a Disadvantaged Area would help in giving advice.

Finally, welcome to the forum and happy farming to you:)

Well done foxy lock you've definitely attracted all the knockers to this forum.
Any advice I've given you is based on you wanting to farm this land as a hobby. No matter what you do thats all it will be,whether its 10, 20,or 100acres, for instance a farmer who won suckler farmer of the year not so long ago, declared his profit on the journal on the year he won, and on 250 cow suckler to beef system his net profit was40000 euros. Do not base your plans on prices at the moment as this is only a bubble and prices are starting to shake already. The system I gave you there is a simple system requiring low investment and if you like farming I'd say you'd enjoy it.
Regarding your subsidies IF YOU HAVE ANY, keep them away from the farm and put them to your childrens education, much better investment.
Anyway thats my tuppence worth, hope you get something helpful out of it.

Tipp Man

rancher wrote: »

Well done foxy lock you've definitely attracted all the knockers to this forum.
Any advice I've given you is based on you wanting to farm this land as a hobby. No matter what you do thats all it will be,whether its 10, 20,or 100acres, for instance a farmer who won suckler farmer of the year not so long ago, declared his profit on the journal on the year he won, and on 250 cow suckler to beef system his net profit was40000 euros. Do not base your plans on prices at the moment as this is only a bubble and prices are starting to shake already. The system I gave you there is a simple system requiring low investment and if you like farming I'd say you'd enjoy it.
Regarding your subsidies IF YOU HAVE ANY, keep them away from the farm and put them to your childrens education, much better investment.
Anyway thats my tuppence worth, hope you get something helpful out of it.

So you'd rather give out advice based on incomplete information not really knowing the necessary facts?? Great advice that is

You have also assumed that it will be a hobby farm - I didn't see the OP mention the word hobby - I did see him mention viable enterprise which is why i asked for more facts

And then you have the cheek to call people who want to know more about the circumstances before giving their advice "knockers"?? Nice one. What you call knockers I call people actually taking the poster seriously and trying to give him proper advice as opposed to some rubbish they rattled off in 5 mins without considering all the circumstances

rancher

Tipp Man wrote: »

So you'd rather give out advice based on incomplete information not really knowing the necessary facts?? Great advice that is

You have also assumed that it will be a hobby farm - I didn't see the OP mention the word hobby - I did see him mention viable enterprise which is why i asked for more facts

And then you have the cheek to call people who want to know more about the circumstances before giving their advice "knockers"?? Nice one. What you call knockers I call people actually taking the poster seriously and trying to give him proper advice as opposed to some rubbish they rattled off in 5 mins without considering all the circumstances

I shall look forward to your " advice"

Tipp Man

rancher wrote: »

I shall look forward to your " advice"

I never said I had any advice to give

I simply questioned how people, such as yourself, can give advice without knowing some basic details and critical information

foxylock

oh oh I didn't mean to start a fight!!!!!!

Firstly lads I must say I'm overwhelmed by the quantity and quality of your replies, I didn't give enough information in the initial post because I didn't want to overcomplicate and also I was uncertain as to how it would be received. I now realise the type of people here are genuine country livin lovin folk like myself and what a relief that is.

So it's a fifty acre hill farm with reasonable land but like I said before needs work, a reseed would not go astray for a start. The sheep are 90% Scottish blackface with the rest a X from a stray Texel ram a few years back. As regards numbers, there's about 180 good breeding ewes, 6 rams and a few wethers. There's also a 400 acre grazing right and a couple of pretty decent sheds. The subsidy is about 8k and call me old fashioned but I dont want to rent it out. I have always had the idea that one day I would be the one to turn it around and turn the minus into a plus...... maybe I am mad.

The house is in good nick but I don't want to uproot the family just yet. once again I appreciate the replies and hopefully I have thrown some more light on the subject.

Username John

foxylock wrote: »

oh oh I didn't mean to start a fight!!!!!!

Firstly lads I must say I'm overwhelmed by the quantity and quality of your replies, I didn't give enough information in the initial post because I didn't want to overcomplicate and also I was uncertain as to how it would be received. I now realise the type of people here are genuine country livin lovin folk like myself and what a relief that is.

So it's a fifty acre hill farm with reasonable land but like I said before needs work, a reseed would not go astray for a start. The sheep are 90% Scottish blackface with the rest a X from a stray Texel ram a few years back. As regards numbers, there's about 180 good breeding ewes, 6 rams and a few wethers. There's also a 400 acre grazing right and a couple of pretty decent sheds. The subsidy is about 8k and call me old fashioned but I dont want to rent it out. I have always had the idea that one day I would be the one to turn it around and turn the minus into a plus...... maybe I am mad.

The house is in good nick but I don't want to uproot the family just yet. once again I appreciate the replies and hopefully I have thrown some more light on the subject.

Hello foxylock,

Welcome to the farming forum.

I was in a similiar situation to yourself a few years ago, albeit on a much smaller scale. I moved home & took over the farm, on which there was a few sheep, and have worked on improving it since.

You have a nice few sheep there - I would say they could generate a nice amount to add to your off-farm income, maybe not enough to call it a good income on its own. IMHO

As previous posters have said - take it easy, dont rush into it, as tempting as it may be to do so.

Re "lack knowledge of marts, paperwork, grants, etc."
- The mart I think is just experience, and having a good calm head. I wil also say I dont have the mart fully cracked yet though Maybe get a neighbour to help the first few times out... Is it worth considering sending lambs direct to factory? I am looking at this for next year, as I dont have the time to get to the mart.
- The paperwork isnt too bad though, from what I have found.
- Any grants are gone, so thats that done with

You have a few options I guess, for advise overall
- Join Teagasc
- Get some advice from a local Agri planner
- Best of all, is get advice from neighbours, who are sheep farmers
- And you can always ask as many Q as you want on this forum, answers are usually good enough

I would look into Teagasc discussion groups, to see if there is one in your area. I am not in one, I think they do exist for sheep farming in some places in the country?
Does anyone know anything more about these?
From what I have heard, they seem to be very good.

The 10k you have mentioned, I would hang back on spending that. Two reasons I say this
1) you have 8k in payments + whatever you get from lamb sales, then this should finance a lot of changes on the farm over time - if you decide to not take any profit from the farm for a few years. This would be my preference.
2) In my experience you need to start doing your own thing, decide on a system that works for you, then see what you need for that system... This may not necessarily be the way it was up til now, so what you think now, may change...

You cant really go wrong spending money on fences, gates & reseeding.

You will also find money almost spends itself, on various bits & pieces, improvments here & there.

I found the best thing was to select which field to fence & reseed each year - it will cost a bit by the time you start to clear ditches, buy & drive poles, sheep wire, seed, fertiliser, etc...
I can pull some numbers of what mine cost me if you like, it might help you with your planning?

Also - I found money on better facilities was money well spent. Even though I am not there by any means, but I try to do things a bit better now, and not *as* dependent on pallets & baler twine

Right, I kinda ended up rambling a bit more than I wanted there.

Lastly - whatever you do, best of luck with it.

foxylock

Thanks for that John, some figures would be a great help as I spent today pricing gates and the price of a heavy duty mesh gate 14' is coming in at bewteen 265 and 220 depending on who I go to all offering a slightly better price on bulk orders but still not willing to commit. With the place needing upwards of 14 gates I dunno whether to bite the bullet and purchase before VAT increase or spread the pain over the next year and see how it goes. Fencing must also be a priority as I currently have a few of the neighbours ewes mowing down my good grass while the rest of his flock are planning a break in ..... I can see it in their eyes!!

djmc

If it is very overgrown a flail mower and maybe hire a man with a hedge cutter
for a day should clean the place up a bit
Ask teagasc about the AEOS scheme for fencing you might get some money sometime but not a lot this could be axed in the budget also

Figerty

You are making the presumption that the OP is self-employed, I didn't make that assumption. When I took over the farm at home I was and still am in the main a PAYE worker.

Having to file accounts was a new experience for me, and it has allowed me to put the losses on the farm while trying to bring it up to scratch, against my PAYE income.

My accountant has made me aware of all the capital allowances etc. that I am now entitled to. Secondly, I take your point about paying by cheque, but I know if I paid the locals by cheque for bales, they would choke on their own seizure. I got caught by a local digger contractor that quoted a job but would not take a cheque. This guy is my neighbour so I couldn't really afford to fall out; won't be giving him work again though.

You could argue that 10K invested in the land is money well spent if the Euro collapses! Better to be in the land than in the worthless bank!
The other way to look at it is that the 10k is a long term investment.

I joked a few years ago with the guy doing my slatted shed that he better take the cheque because if he didn't and the banks collapsed, then I would still owe him the money if the banks crashed.

funny man wrote: »

Firstly figerty as self employed people we do a self assesment tax this allows us to do the accounting so you can buy bales and include them as a cost, you don't need receipts unless it was paid for in cash. it's only in an audit situation you may be requested to provide proof of purchase but a cheque stubb wii surfice.
I would urge cation in a situation like this as i reckon we are in for a good few very bad years and to be advising someone to spend spend spend is a dangerous thing as the ROI (return on investment) on the 10k will be minimal plus a farm as most of us know is a bottomless pit when it comes to spending money and for someone with a young family, depending on work (no job is now secure) to pay the bills i would liken this to playing with fire.
On the sheep yea 500 ewes ave €26/ewe €13000, some work for that money before tax/prsi/usc capital invest and then the big one we all forget our own labour.

funny man

Point taken but you can do it if your PAYE also. I'm shocked that you would pay out cash for anything, that money cost you roughly double what you paid out eg earn 10k tax 5k pay out cash5k, unless your getting a substantcial reduction this makes no sense.
I'd choke if someone asked me for cash.
Sorry but spending money in case the Euro collapses is complete folly especially into something that will give little or no ROI.
Sorry Other posters i thought i was positive highlighting the small profit thats to be had before any investment.

i know money is not everything but it sure is useful stuff!

just do it

Tipp Man wrote: »

If he only has 10 acres at 5 ewes per acre - that's 50 ewes @ your 30 profit per ewe gives a whopping 1500 NET profit, lets double it as lambs are doing well, thats a whopping 3k NET profit.

If they're realistic net profit figures I'm blood testing all the cows in the morning and getting myself some of them there sheeps:D;)

milkprofit

Locate the few best- young sheep farmers in your area
Offer to do one -two days work for him if he she will do 1 day managment with you Drawing up plans -going to mart paper work keeping a*/c etc
Dont be affraid- proud to set some land short term while you gain experience
Also talk to good accountant befor you spend a cent
It might be very wise to keep yuor 10..000 for personal use
let farm stand on its owen

5live

rancher wrote: »

Well done foxy lock you've definitely attracted all the knockers to this forum.
Any advice I've given you is based on you wanting to farm this land as a hobby. No matter what you do thats all it will be,whether its 10, 20,or 100acres, for instance a farmer who won suckler farmer of the year not so long ago, declared his profit on the journal on the year he won, and on 250 cow suckler to beef system his net profit was40000 euros. Do not base your plans on prices at the moment as this is only a bubble and prices are starting to shake already. The system I gave you there is a simple system requiring low investment and if you like farming I'd say you'd enjoy it.
Regarding your subsidies IF YOU HAVE ANY, keep them away from the farm and put them to your childrens education, much better investment.
Anyway thats my tuppence worth, hope you get something helpful out of it.

Still touchy??:D:D:D

Bizzum

rancher wrote: »

I shall look forward to your " advice"

I for one always do. There are quite a few very good posters on here and the man from Tipp is one of them!

5live

foxylock wrote: »

oh oh I didn't mean to start a fight!!!!!!

Firstly lads I must say I'm overwhelmed by the quantity and quality of your replies, I didn't give enough information in the initial post because I didn't want to overcomplicate and also I was uncertain as to how it would be received. I now realise the type of people here are genuine country livin lovin folk like myself and what a relief that is.

So it's a fifty acre hill farm with reasonable land but like I said before needs work, a reseed would not go astray for a start. The sheep are 90% Scottish blackface with the rest a X from a stray Texel ram a few years back. As regards numbers, there's about 180 good breeding ewes, 6 rams and a few wethers. There's also a 400 acre grazing right and a couple of pretty decent sheds. The subsidy is about 8k and call me old fashioned but I dont want to rent it out. I have always had the idea that one day I would be the one to turn it around and turn the minus into a plus...... maybe I am mad.

The house is in good nick but I don't want to uproot the family just yet. once again I appreciate the replies and hopefully I have thrown some more light on the subject.

Dont worry about the fights. Some of us would fight with our shadows;)

You sound happy at this and have a very good base to start from. The one big decision you have to make now is what market you are breeding towards. If texel cross sheep do well on the farm then you have huge potential to breed stock for slaughter ie texel or suffolk or other cross breeds for the butcher/factory or replacement ewe lambs/hoggets for lowland farmers flocks. This would mean buying in your own replacements or keeping a blackface ram to breed your own.

Now i know nothing about hill sheep so i will leave you in more capable hands.

Enjoy:)

Username John

foxylock wrote: »

Thanks for that John, some figures would be a great help as I spent today pricing gates and the price of a heavy duty mesh gate 14' is coming in at bewteen 265 and 220 depending on who I go to all offering a slightly better price on bulk orders but still not willing to commit. With the place needing upwards of 14 gates I dunno whether to bite the bullet and purchase before VAT increase or spread the pain over the next year and see how it goes. Fencing must also be a priority as I currently have a few of the neighbours ewes mowing down my good grass while the rest of his flock are planning a break in ..... I can see it in their eyes!!

The last bit of fencing I priced, was for grant specification, so it probably was on the expensive side, and it was coming out around €3.50/metre. You could prob reduce this to closed to the €3 / metre mark if you wanted to. It all depends on the type of posts you buy, etc.
I was told on here a good bit ago to only buy creseote treated stakes, that they are a far better job. I didnt - as I could buy far more cheaper ones, and so do more fencing. Even with hindsight, I still dont know if I was right or wrong... but thats what I did anyways

Gates - I only buy light non-mesh gates. I cant remember what I paid for gates now, but I think they were around the 120 mark, so nearly half what you are quoting above. I dont see the point of heavy gates for just sheep. The local co-op usally has a sale on gates at 10% off every now and then, so I try to buy a few then.
Mesh - I just put some wire on them to stop lambs if they need it, tie it on with fence wire & pliers. Either heavy sheep wire, or chain link type wire. Its cheaper, and it does the same job.
As for buying a load of gates - do you need them all? IMO putting up a new gate, whilst the fencing either side is bad isnt really worth it. You might be better of buying less gates, and spending the remainder on posts & wire?

Regarding the tidying up of the place - I think someone suggested a flail mower. I wouldnt advise it. A digger next spring would clear a lot of overgrown ditch / hedge, and make a nice job of a field ahead of reseeding. Its a once off job, so IMO not worth buying a machine to deal with it.

Someone also said get a good accountant - definitely. Maybe sooner rather than later, as 31st Dec & tax-year-end is fast approaching. As you have so much to do, and places to spend, it would be unfortunate if you were caught for tax...

rancher

Username John wrote: »

The last bit of fencing I priced, was for grant specification, so it probably was on the expensive side, and it was coming out around €3.50/metre. You could prob reduce this to closed to the €3 / metre mark if you wanted to. It all depends on the type of posts you buy, etc.
I was told on here a good bit ago to only buy creseote treated stakes, that they are a far better job. I didnt - as I could buy far more cheaper ones, and so do more fencing. Even with hindsight, I still dont know if I was right or wrong... but thats what I did anyways

Gates - I only buy light non-mesh gates. I cant remember what I paid for gates now, but I think they were around the 120 mark, so nearly half what you are quoting above. I dont see the point of heavy gates for just sheep. The local co-op usally has a sale on gates at 10% off every now and then, so I try to buy a few then.
Mesh - I just put some wire on them to stop lambs if they need it, tie it on with fence wire & pliers. Either heavy sheep wire, or chain link type wire. Its cheaper, and it does the same job.
As for buying a load of gates - do you need them all? IMO putting up a new gate, whilst the fencing either side is bad isnt really worth it. You might be better of buying less gates, and spending the remainder on posts & wire?

Regarding the tidying up of the place - I think someone suggested a flail mower. I wouldnt advise it. A digger next spring would clear a lot of overgrown ditch / hedge, and make a nice job of a field ahead of reseeding. Its a once off job, so IMO not worth buying a machine to deal with it.

Someone also said get a good accountant - definitely. Maybe sooner rather than later, as 31st Dec & tax-year-end is fast approaching. As you have so much to do, and places to spend, it would be unfortunate if you were caught for tax...

I too used treated stakes that were half the price of crosoted and there still to the good after twenty years.
Regarding the new planning rules, the proposal regarding ditches is that you are allowed remove 500 metres provided you don't create a feild larger than 5ha.Above that you need department approval. As far as i know these rules haven't been sanctioned by EU yet,still being discussed!!! As I said before join teagasc they will keep you abreast of regulations
Regarding gates I just use 10 ft sheep hurdles costing maybe 70 yoyos, good enough for sheep, don't even need heavy strainers to pin them to.

Username John

rancher wrote: »

I too used treated stakes that were half the price of crosoted and there still to the good after twenty years.
Regarding the new planning rules, the proposal regarding ditches is that you are allowed remove 500 metres provided you don't create a feild larger than 5ha.Above that you need department approval. As far as i know these rules haven't been sanctioned by EU yet,still being discussed!!! As I said before join teagasc they will keep you abreast of regulations
Regarding gates I just use 10 ft sheep hurdles costing maybe 70 yoyos, good enough for sheep, don't even need heavy strainers to pin them to.

On the ditches - I meant more get a digger to take out the scrub that has encroached into the field, and clear up, rather than level the ditch itself.

Its funny - my grandfather took out a load of ditches in our place, to make the fields bigger. Now I am almost putting them back in - albeit with fences rather than sod ditches. Progress ha! :rolleyes:

Bizzum

foxylock wrote: »

Fencing must also be a priority as I currently have a few of the neighbours ewes mowing down my good grass while the rest of his flock are planning a break in ..... I can see it in their eyes!!

Maybe if you chat with your neighbour, an agreement can be made that you fence some part of the boundary and he more of it. 50/50 so to speak. I'm not saying this will work but it may be a runner depending on the lie of the land and your relationship with your neighbours!

In relation to hedges being overgrown, with time a man with a chainsaw and tractor/loader can get through an ammount of work, depending on the nature of the hedgerow. Over one winter I breasted back a lot of overhanging ash.
A lot of these things can be more of a marathon than a sprint!

rancher

Username John wrote: »

On the ditches - I meant more get a digger to take out the scrub that has encroached into the field, and clear up, rather than level the ditch itself.

Its funny - my grandfather took out a load of ditches in our place, to make the fields bigger. Now I am almost putting them back in - albeit with fences rather than sod ditches. Progress ha! :rolleyes:

yea I know what you meant, sentence about ditches was in relation to a criticism by 5live to one of my earlier posts

JohnBoy

What's your short/medium term goal here?

do you need an income now or are you able to take a couple of years of making no money?

That decides a lot.

I'm in a not entirely unrelated situation, but I'm 60 miles from the farm and while the yards and sheds are in a state the fields arent actually that bad.

We've held back on buying livestock until we're living on the farm (anyone want to buy a house actually? ) and for now we're selling silage off some and renting more of it.

The rent is nice to have from some of it. it's not huge money, but it's stable money that you dont have to spend anything to achieve. is renting some of the owned land an option?



Good fences make good neighbours! it's a cliche but it's true. if you can afford to then spend as much income as you can on these until they're right. get in the digger man to clean them back and then get fencing up. I'm in favour of spending more on fencing than less. it's a long term investment, I'd nearly rather put up 100m of 20 year fencing than 200m of 10 year fencing. but you have to balance that with cashflow.

Prioritise your boundaries first, internal fencing is a mangement tool, boundary fencing is so much more.

Dont worry about the vat increase. non vat registered farmers can reclaim the vat on a number of specified materials, including fencing materials.

I'd buy the best gates I can, same again, they're a lifetime investment, put them on the boundary points, use pallets inbetween fields if you have to.


Invest as little of that 10k as possible, try and make the farm pay it's own way if you can.


so endeth my ramblings. I'm not a farmer, but I'm working on it

5live

rancher wrote: »

yea I know what you meant, sentence about ditches was in relation to a criticism by 5live to one of my earlier posts

I merely pointed out the potential legal implications of removal of ditches
to the original poster as i assumed he may not be aware of the new regulations;)

foxylock

Thanks again lads much food for thought from ye again. Here's where I stand at the moment.

I won't get bogged down on ditch removal, for the moment I have one 150 metre stretch ear marked for the digger but right now it's not a priority. I'm leaning towards buying the best gates I can afford because I see no economic sense in buying inferior gates twice or more!! Yes the boundaries need urgent attention but with a very unusual shaped farm, a river and some dangerous glens I surely have five kilometres to cover..... not something that can be done overnight. I'm adamant that I won't rent it out and I must reseed this year which brings the question of drainage to the fore. The old cowhouse is a decent size and can easily and cheaply be converted into sheep housing as I would like to make a start on establishing a small lowland flock early next year.

I was on the hill today with the flock and to be honest there is no better place to be, I had my two year old with me doing a flock count he can only count to nine so that's how many sheep we now have , oh and " tooo baa baa black"

Anyway much to ponder...............

just do it

Use this link to map your land. You'll be able to measure distances, areas etc.

You may need to click refresh a few times to get it to work (if worked fine for me originally but now I have to do this) or alternately google the "geological survey of ireland public viewer".

I agree, nothing nicer than being down the land with the young lad or lassie. They're happy out, and better than the tv!

razor8

here are my costs per ewe based on a 220 ewe flock. it may give you some basis to work from


Category Cost
Professional Fees €2.45
Contractors €10.80
Diesel €5.23
Dosing €2.44
Feedstuff €7.26
Fencing €2.15
Fertiliser €5.20
Grass €1.82
Machinery €5.23
Miscellaneous €1.82
Scanning €0.90
Tagging €1.13
Veterinary €4.44
Vaccines €4.35

€55.22

foxylock

"just do it" that's a fantastic tool I didn't know existed, there goes the rest of my night :D:D sound!!

"razor8"
thanks for your openness on costs not many people would be so forthcoming. I suppose these costs are only going to go one way..... skyward. Would you consider scanning essential and do you practise immediate culling of barren ewes or chance them later on and hope for the best. When I say chance them I meant with a ram of course:eek:

Birdnuts

foxylock wrote: »

Thanks again lads much food for thought from ye again. Here's where I stand at the moment.

I won't get bogged down on ditch removal, for the moment I have one 150 metre stretch ear marked for the digger but right now it's not a priority. .........

If the ditches are in good nick ie. not gappy or overgrown, you should consider retaining them since stock appreciate the shelter provided - especcially on exposed hillsides. The stock in these parts have been glued to them in recent days, which is understandable given the battering from the elements!!

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

here are my costs per ewe based on a 220 ewe flock. it may give you some basis to work from


Category Cost
Professional Fees €2.45
Contractors €10.80
Diesel €5.23
Dosing €2.44
Feedstuff €7.26
Fencing €2.15
Fertiliser €5.20
Grass €1.82
Machinery €5.23
Miscellaneous €1.82
Scanning €0.90
Tagging €1.13
Veterinary €4.44
Vaccines €4.35

€55.22

Very good costs there, are you running them with cattle? I find it very hard to keep costs at that level on an all sheep farm @ 10 ewes/ ha

razor8

i only keep 3 cattle for 3 months over the summer to qualify for the mixed grazing supplementry measure for reps

i only stock at around 3 ewes to the acre which is quite low compared to teagasc recommendations

Username John

razor8 wrote: »

here are my costs per ewe based on a 220 ewe flock. it may give you some basis to work from


Category Cost
Professional Fees €2.45
Contractors €10.80
Diesel €5.23
Dosing €2.44
Feedstuff €7.26
Fencing €2.15
Fertiliser €5.20
Grass €1.82
Machinery €5.23
Miscellaneous €1.82
Scanning €0.90
Tagging €1.13
Veterinary €4.44
Vaccines €4.35

€55.22

Thanks for figures Razor - interesting reading.

I tried to pull out some of my own figures, but as I am doing a lot of reseeding, fencing, built a new shed last year, they are not really representative... Plus - my accounting skills arent the best...

But, they are figures I should know, so I need to dig a bit deeper...

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

i only keep 3 cattle for 3 months over the summer to qualify for the mixed grazing supplementry measure for reps

i only stock at around 3 ewes to the acre which is quite low compared to teagasc recommendations

Very good, I use straw and meal in the winter,just for 6to8 weeks so feedstuff and straw is around 25euro per ewe but contracting is1euro ewe for hedgecutting as no silage

6600

For the OP, someone with a circular saw will tidy up the ditches quickly. At least then you'll be able to see where you're going!

Not really related to the OP, but someone on this thread said that a cheque stub is sufficient to satisfy the Revenue re proof of purchase. That's complete wishful thinking whoever said that. They can and do look for an invoice for every item of expenditure and disallow anything that doesn't. Sorry for being such a party pooper but to tell anyone starting out in farming anything else is not going to help them. If you are stupid enough to give someone cash just remember you're paying their tax for them! The Revenue don't make concessions for farmers they treat them the same as any other business.

razor8

foxylock wrote: »

"just do it" that's a fantastic tool I didn't know existed, there goes the rest of my night :D:D sound!!

"razor8"
thanks for your openness on costs not many people would be so forthcoming. I suppose these costs are only going to go one way..... skyward. Would you consider scanning essential and do you practise immediate culling of barren ewes or chance them later on and hope for the best. When I say chance them I meant with a ram of course:eek:

i would, it allows me to decide exactly what feeding is needed for singles twins or triplets and also aids cross fostering triplet lambs.
barren ewes on my farm go unless they are ewe lambs or hoggets after that they go. its a no brainer with the prices these days, you purchase a ewe with twins for another €100 if you wanted too
my secret is always keeping my best twin/triplet ewe lambs which are punched in the ear when they are born and the heaviest ones kept each year.

rancher

foxylock wrote: »

I was on the hill today with the flock and to be honest there is no better place to be, I had my two year old with me doing a flock count he can only count to nine so that's how many sheep we now have , oh and " tooo baa baa black"

Anyway much to ponder...............

Definitely a lifestyle advantage to this sheep farming, was out for my walk on the roads today passing dairy and beef farms with the stock indoors and the muck and work that involves, then came to the sheep pictured in my post last week in the picture forum and I thought '' ah yes'' nothing like it.

funny man

6600 wrote: »

For the OP, someone with a circular saw will tidy up the ditches quickly. At least then you'll be able to see where you're going!

Not really related to the OP, but someone on this thread said that a cheque stub is sufficient to satisfy the Revenue re proof of purchase. That's complete wishful thinking whoever said that. They can and do look for an invoice for every item of expenditure and disallow anything that doesn't. Sorry for being such a party pooper but to tell anyone starting out in farming anything else is not going to help them. If you are stupid enough to give someone cash just remember you're paying their tax for them! The Revenue don't make concessions for farmers they treat them the same as any other business.

Have you proof to back this up. I have come through two Tax audits one as a sole trader and the other as a company and revenue had no problem with cheque stubs and no invoice or receipt, they only said they would not except a stub if i couldn't produce an accurate name and address of the payee. every farmer on here buys goods especially from other farmers without invoice or receipt so are you imploying that this can't be used as an expense?