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Unsustainable Mortgage
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Contract law is not the same all across the world. There is contract law in Ireland. Show a case in Ireland where this has happened, not some US case.
Also you didnt mentioned that case you linked to was overturned the next day on appeal.
Well to be Honest in the world of contract law there is nearly no difference worth talking about for more than 98% of the countries in the world. There are some minor policy enforcement differences though. Example in the UK handing back the keys works the debt doesn't follow you where in Ireland that solution might not work so well. The USA is similar to the UK
The info from TomHoward could be more useful if you handed back the keys but doesn't seem in this time to hold much promise for continuing to pay the Mortgage
Derry0 -
The post by timhoward is nonsense, based on a completely flawed book written by an emotionally desperate man.
The fact that the bank didn't give you a suitcase of euro notes with which to buy your house doesn't make your mortgage void.0 -
The post by timhoward is nonsense, based on a completely flawed book written by an emotionally desperate man.
The fact that the bank didn't give you a suitcase of euro notes with which to buy your house doesn't make your mortgage void.
Thank you. At least the other tread on this was locked.0 -
Indeed, bring the discussion back to the OP's issue. Let's end this sidetrack down the garden path.
Remember, report posts if you think there is a problem - Mods can't, and don't, read each individual thread0 -
Isn't it very funny on here that the powers that be on here only want replies on here that go toward working with the bank dont dare question them dont dare suggest not paying.
Oh no you must bend over backways and give them everything post anything else and your either banned here or your thread is locked.
Well i haven't paid my mortgage since last march and iv every intention on taking on the bank on the whole contract issue.
They got bailed out so ill bail myself out. If it gets took off me ill be the first to come on here and say my efforts didnt work.
But for people to come on here and try shut down other options is wrong and totally defeats the purpose of a forum.0 -
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The post by timhoward is nonsense, based on a completely flawed book written by an emotionally desperate man.
The fact that the bank didn't give you a suitcase of euro notes with which to buy your house doesn't make your mortgage void.
How can you make that out seamus????
Nothing the man said is nonsense but all is actual fact!!!!!
Lets see how long its gona take for this thread to be locked.
We wouldn't want the cat getting out of the bag now would we guys0 -
There is no cat to let out. If people are having trouble with their mortgages they should seek professional help (FLAC, MABS their own bank etc..) not listen to odd ideas from strange people.0
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Well to be Honest in the world of contract law there is nearly no difference worth talking about for more than 98% of the countries in the world. There are some minor policy enforcement differences though. Example in the UK handing back the keys works the debt doesn't follow you where in Ireland that solution might not work so well. The USA is similar to the UK
The info from TomHoward could be more useful if you handed back the keys but doesn't seem in this time to hold much promise for continuing to pay the Mortgage
Derry
Thats not a difference in contract law but a difference in the contract itself, non recourse loans on private residential property are (were) normal in the states but irish banks dont offer this type of loan.0 -
cookie1977 wrote: »There is no cat to let out. If people are having trouble with their mortgages they should seek professional help (FLAC, MABS their own bank etc..) not listen to odd ideas from strange people.
Tell me cookie, whats MABS gona do, pay my mortgage. lol. Yeah rite, whats the bank gona do??? Let ya off the interest. lol. Yeah rite.
The only thing i agree with what you said is, i would advise nobody to listen to anybodys odd ideas least of all mine. But i know what im gona do because i know the bank dont own the loan on my mortgage anymore.
When the bank was asked to provide proof they own the loan they sent me everything but what i asked for. I wonder why that is????
Probably because they dont even know where it is. Some bondholder bought my mortgage. If the bank gave me his name id shake his hand for paying my debt for me0 -
Its a fact at the moment that there are several cases in courts in Ireland that are been adjourned again and again because the banks cant come up with this stuff when asked.
I suppose ill be told im talking bull here too. lol0 -
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Its a fact at the moment that there are several cases in courts in Ireland that are been adjourned again and again because the banks cant come up with this stuff when asked.
I suppose ill be told im talking bull here too. lol
Are you saying that the bank will allow you to continue to live in your house while you willfully neglect to pay your bills in the hope of some tecnicality coming to your rescue? well, your brave, il give you that!0 -
You would be hard pressed to find a loose mortgage agreement and then again if you did you be hard pressed to find it standing up in court.
I for one agree to press the banks if they are wrong, however why should mortgage arrear holders get bailed out just because their lender was also?
Plenty of folk don't have mortgages so why should they bail there neighbours out? They'd be bailing out simple folks with homes to those who got ultra greedy and bought multiple houses. There is simply not a universal solution that suits all.
There is no point in givingnhard strapped people false hopes on foreign laws that do not apply here.
Lastly, the only reason this tread will be locked is because it's gone far off the op original request for information.0 -
unclebill98 wrote: »You would be hard pressed to find a loose mortgage agreement and then again if you did you be hard pressed to find it standing up in court.
I for one agree to press the banks if they are wrong, however why should mortgage arrear holders get bailed out just because their lender was also?
Plenty of folk don't have mortgages so why should they bail there neighbours out? They'd be bailing out simple folks with homes to those who got ultra greedy and bought multiple houses. There is simply not a universal solution that suits all.
There is no point in givingnhard strapped people false hopes on foreign laws that do not apply here.
Lastly, the only reason this tread will be locked is because it's gone far off the op original request for information.
Well i dont see how its gone off topic unclebill because its another angle to take on the debt that is in question would you not agree. The only thing is the discussion wont be let go ahead where people might want more information on the subject but are not allowed go into detail because its seen as going off topic. Well thats a big contradiction i think.
Bill would you not feel better helping your neighbour rather than having your hard earned cash go to those who created the problem and face no responsibilities for there actions??
I know id rather help my neighbour than seen 60% if not more of my money go to funding the problem that put us all here.0 -
I pay my mortgage every month. I've nothing left over for treats or entertainment after paying the mortgage. Why dont I get a bail out since Ive forgone all of the trappings of life so that I can continue to pay my taxes/mortgage etc... when others maybe weren't as restrictive with their spending. Or am I just a fool?0
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There are plenty of bank bashing treads on this forum that are unlock and have had great debates.
Sorry, It was more aimed at the deleted treads, your right I can see value in your argument before the toy show.
While I admire stance on not paying your own mortgage and instead wishing to help pay for your neighbours. I feel this stance is not across the board and certainly not one I'd share.
Sure in the end of the day any bailout will result in paying back the lenders......so it still goes against your original stance.0 -
Pablo Sanchez wrote: »Are you saying that the bank will allow you to continue to live in your house while you willfully neglect to pay your bills in the hope of some tecnicality coming to your rescue? well, your brave, il give you that!
Well Pablo, i honestly dont give two dams what the bank think, they dont care about me thats for sure.
Btw i dont like your assumption that i dont pay my bills. As all my bills are more than upto date. I owe no man or woman a penny nor are any services i recieve in the red.
Also i will gladly pay my mortgage upon proof that they are the owners of the loan and prove it.
Its not that im brave iv just realise that whats the point in killing myself to pay a mortgage thats over 100k in neg eg due to no fault of my own when it hasn't even been proven that i owe the money in the first place??
Where's the deed?? Where's the contract???
They are gone with the wind my friend
How many people have you heard of that took there own life over bloody mortgage debt or debt in general especially round this time of year.
I think its a crying shame and destroys lives for eternity for no good reason other than false pressure far as im concerned0 -
cookie1977 wrote: »I pay my mortgage every month. I've nothing left over for treats or entertainment after paying the mortgage. Why dont I get a bail out since Ive forgone all of the trappings of life so that I can continue to pay my taxes/mortgage etc... when others maybe weren't as restrictive with their spending. Or am I just a fool?
Well cookie i cant speak for you being a fool and wouldn't dare suggest such a thing. But i was like you. After paying my mortgage and everything else id be lucky to have €50 in my pocket for the week.
After getting layed off at 31 working since im 15 i was in direstraights with pressure being put on me by the bank over my mortgage. Went for a moritorium and the said at the time they werent in the position to grant one at that stage. Well i could only laught cause i know i certainly wasn't in a position to pay either so wtf??? lol
So one day a mate of mine called me up out of the blue and told me to read the blank of ireland book. So i did, not i must say i got it hard to take it all in, like how is this all possible. So spent another two weeks doing research and 6months on cookie i cant tell you im a different man.
When i get a letter from the bank now i just laugh at it and when the end comes if my house is took i honestly dont care because id build better and bigger for half the money. So screw em i say.
Do your own reaserch make your own mind up. Im only sharing my story
PS: Cookie i also know what your saying about others not being restrictive. Adding two new cars and a holiday to Disney land onto the mortgage.
But the banks deserve to get badly stung here i think because if they weren't on commission on the amounts they lent out half this crap would never have happened. It was total and utter madness.0 -
No I have read around a lot and I still think the advice here:
www.keepingyourhome.ie
and the section on mortgage arrears is the right choice for people in dire straits.
http://www.keepingyourhome.ie/mortgage_arrears_resolution.html.en
I too dont know your position and maybe you'll keep us informed of how you get on but resolution wise I think the best chance of success is with using the law as it is written to help you rather than hoping for success with a possibly (emphasis here) weak stance.
The first port of call with anything is to escalate. Utilise the legal structure (in this case the code of conduct for mortgage arrears) as it is written before trying more extreme measures is what I would always advise people. The extreme measures should always be a last resort as being that they're extreme they are also the most risky.
Good luck0 -
Am I right to say you DID borrow the money, you did buy a house and your now challenging them on proving they actually loaned you the money?
If it's no fault of your own, then who's fault is it?
Let say the banks had not been bailed out, would you be as against them as you seem to be by your posts?0 -
unclebill98 wrote: »Am I right to say you DID borrow the money, you did buy a house and your now challenging them on proving they actually loaned you the money?
If it's no fault of your own, then who's fault is it?
Let say the banks had not been bailed out, would you be as against them as you seem to be by your posts?
Your rite bill. Well all i know is somebody paid the guy i bought it off so he was happy and went off and got himself into even bigger debt. No im not challenging them on did they actually loan me the money because they actually gave me no money. I got a house for making a promise to work my ass off for the next 30years and give them all i had. In other words creating a promisory note
But like i said, where is the contract between me and the bank? Wheres the mortgage deed as proof of the contract. Ooops that was shreeded and the information was logged onto MERS for the bank to avoid paying stamp duty on the transaction when it was securitized and sold on for profit.
Well i certainly never knew any of this was going to happen all because of me signing a load of papers. Full disclosure being part of a valid contract is gone now. Shall we continue.............0 -
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And i have to pay for PureClass to pay for his home by keeping up the banks with my taxes.
Freeloader you are. And I personally have no time for the banks most of the time but you sir are just a freeloader unwilling to fight for your home but just decide not to pay because its the easy option.
Many people got greedy in the boom years. I am young but didnt get greedy. Neither did my family. We lived within our means all the time and not on credit like so many people did and still do.0 -
Your lack of a grasp of the realityof the situation is staggering, this will only end in tears...and not for the bank im afraid.your saying that you think that your mortgage was sold or securitised as a bond by the bank? And even if it was, how does the legal mortgage contract you signed become invalid by the securitsation? The solictor you consulted when taking out the mortgage agrees with your flawless legal acumen I presume?Your rite bill. Well all i know is somebody paid the guy i bought it off so he was happy and went off and got himself into even bigger debt. No im not challenging them on did they actually loan me the money because they actually gave me no money. I got a house for making a promise to work my ass off for the next 30years and give them all i had. In other words creating a promisory note
But like i said, where is the contract between me and the bank? Wheres the mortgage deed as proof of the contract. Ooops that was shreeded and the information was logged onto MERS for the bank to avoid paying stamp duty on the transaction when it was securitized and sold on for profit.
Well i certainly never knew any of this was going to happen all because of me signing a load of papers. Full disclosure being part of a valid contract is gone now. Shall we continue.............0 -
And i have to pay for PureClass to pay for his home by keeping up the banks with my taxes.
Freeloader you are. And I personally have no time for the banks most of the time but you sir are just a freeloader unwilling to fight for your home but just decide not to pay because its the easy option.
Many people got greedy in the boom years. I am young but didnt get greedy. Neither did my family. We lived within our means all the time and not on credit like so many people did and still do.
How dare you assume im a freeloader Chris. Im far from the fact. Iv worked my ass off for the last 16 years and got nothin really to show for it. I know one thing i certainly didn't bring down this economy and the neck on you to claim or assume iv bumbed off it is outrageous.
Chris you and other have the neck to defend banks and the financial system on here when there are men and women in this country taking there own lives because of debt and nasty letters from these great financial institutions. Well im glad to hear Chris your OK with this. But ME, no im not ok with this.0 -
Pablo Sanchez wrote: »Your lack of a grasp of the realityof the situation is staggering, this will only end in tears...and not for the bank im afraid.your saying that you think that your mortgage was sold or securitised as a bond by the bank? And even if it was, how does the legal mortgage contract you signed become invalid by the securitsation? The solictor you consulted when taking out the mortgage agrees with your flawless legal acumen I presume?
Pablo i wreckon it maybe you that has a lack of grasp of what actually went on in all the common wealth countries for that matter.
Every mortgage in this country was sercutized Pablo givin aaa ratings by different companies and sold on for profit. So lets break it down the payment for said mortgage.
Payment 1
The bondholder bought my mortgage and others at a profit for the bank.
Payment#2
The banks insurance on defaulted loans
Payment#3
30 years of me slaving to pay
Payment#4
The bailout by the taxpayer : Here's me paying the loan again woopie
How many more times does this loan have to be paid for like lol0 -
Ansuildunta wrote: »i still have another 2.5 years on the fixed 5.9% rate, then ill be on the tracker. i thought to come off a fixed rate you would have to pay a massive sum of money,
Ansuildunta are you sure you will be able to go back to the tracker? Im also with Ulster bank and also fixed for 5 years. I got a tracker mortgage when i bought and 3 years later switched to a 5 year fixed. I have spoken to 2 different people in Ulster Bank asking could i revert back to the tracker when the fixed period ends, and both said that it was not possible to get a tracker back, you go back to the standard variable rate. Another boardsie in same predicament Her fixed rate is up and her option letter is below. Unfortunatly it does not mention anything about a tracker. I would imagine it would make a big difference to your repayments if you could get the tracker back
AT THE END OF THE FIXED PERIOD: Ulster Bank Ireland Limited may offer to continue the advance for such a period and at such a fixed rate as it may decide. It may also offer alternative available products. If such offer is made and you elect to accept then you must do so in writing, your acceptance to be signed by all parties to the mortgage and to be received by Ulster Bank Ireland Limited. If of no such offer is made or if an offer is made and no acceptance received as prescribed above, then, from the day following the expiry of any option selected above, the Ulster Bank Home Loan Rate shall apply in accordance with General condition 2 of the Offer of Advance originally accepted by you being the Bank's General Conditions Relating to Advances by Ulster Bank Ireland Limited House Mortgages Section, which varies the Interest Rate, and the said General Conditions relating to the Advances shall be construed accordingly.
General condition 2 of the Offer of Advance is as follows:
Interest is calculated on the balance outstanding on the home loan at the close of business each day from the date of release of the advance monies until the home load is repaid. Interest so calculated is charged on the last day of the calender month in which release of funds takes place and on the last day of each calender month thereafter until the home loan is repaid. Interest charged to the home loan is included in the outstanding balance on which interest is calculated. The outstanding balance on which interest is calculated will include any overdue repayments and other sums outstanding. Overdue repayments and other sums outstanding will be included in the outstanding balance from the date on which they are debited to the home loan account until the date on which they are discharged. If redemption of the home loan takes place mid month the amount required to redeem the loan will include interest from the first day of the month in which redemption takes place to the date of redemtion. The monthly repayments will vary if changes in the Home Loan Interest Rate occur. Variation in Ulster Bank Home Loan Rate may occur at any time and notice of each variation will be published at least once in a national daily newspaper. Interest is calculated on a compound basis.
Drawdown date of your mortgage will be the date on which the advance monies are issued. If drawdown date is before the date on which direct debits are raised in any given month the first repayment will be on the 1st of the month following the month in which drawdown takes place and will be interest only on the amount drawndown from the date of drawdown until month end. This repayment will be in addition to the number of repayment instalments shown on the schedule of inmportant information. If drawdown date is after the date on which direct debits are raised in any given month interest will be charged on the last day of the month on the amount drawn down from date of drawdown until month end. This interest will be added to your first normal repayment on the 1st of the month following the month which follows the month in which drawdown takes place. In this case the total number of repayments will be as shown under the number of repayment instalments in the schedule of important information.
APR calculation assumes that drawdown of the loan will take place on the 15th of the month following the month in which the Offer of Advance issues.
The Special Conditions Relating To Loan xxxxxxxx:
The rate of the Ulster Bank Flexible Mortgage Tracks the ECB rate with a margin which is fixed for the life of the home loan term. THE MARGIN OF THIS HOME LOAN IS ECB RATE PLUS O.85%. This margin is dependent on the amount borrowed and the value of the property to be mortgaged.0 -
Pablo i wreckon it maybe you that has a lack of grasp of what actually went on in all the common wealth countries for that matter.
Every mortgage in this country was sercutized Pablo givin aaa ratings by different companies and sold on for profit. So lets break it down the payment for said mortgage.
Payment 1
The bondholder bought my mortgage and others at a profit for the bank.
Payment#2
The banks insurance on defaulted loans
Payment#3
30 years of me slaving to pay
Payment#4
The bailout by the taxpayer : Here's me paying the loan again woopie
How many more times does this loan have to be paid for like lol
no the bondholder bought a bond based upon the strength of your motgage, not the mortgage itself. Thats the small but crucial difference. Also I presume you have proof of all this? also we are not in the commenwealth.0 -
NON-MARKETABLE RETAIL MORTGAGE-BACKED DEBT INSTRUMENTS (RMBDs)
The following eligibility criteria are applied to RMBDs (see also Table 4):
Type of asset: It must be a debt instrument (a promissory note or a bill of exchange) that is secured by a pool of residential mortgages and that falls short of full securitisation. Substitution of assets in the underlying pool must be possible and a mechanism needs to be in place to ensure that the Eurosystem enjoys priority over creditors other than those exempted for public policy reasons.
Irish mortgage-backed promissory notes are currently the only instruments in this asset class.
A 2005 ECB document (p17) tells us more about the procedures –
The assets concerned are non-marketable debt instruments in the form of residential mortgage-backed promissory notes secured by a deed of charge (floating) over a pool of residential mortgage assets held by the issuer. The issue of promissory notes (by the original issuers) is envisaged as and when required in the context of Eurosystem monetary policy operations or intraday credit operations; these assets are not listed on a regulated market.
The risk control measures applied prescribe a loan-to-value ratio of 80%. This is the ratio, expressed as a percentage, of the balance of a loan to the last professional valuation of the relevant property. In addition, a haircut of 20% is applied, together with a margin of 1% for intraday and overnight transactions and 2% for transactions with an original maturity of more than one business day.
This sounds like a pretty good deal for Irish mortgage providers. They could write an IOU based on on a floating pool of mortgages, avoid all the hassles of having the IOU traded on any market, get a certification that the mortgages had a LTV of 80 percent, and hey presto, they had de facto ECB funding for those mortgages. Yes there was a haircut but that could be easily covered through deposits, bonds, and other funding sources.
http://www.irishelection.com/2011/01/the-central-bank-and-the-mortgage-drug/0 -
Your rite bill. Well all i know is somebody paid the guy i bought it off so he was happy and went off and got himself into even bigger debt. No im not challenging them on did they actually loan me the money because they actually gave me no money. I got a house for making a promise to work my ass off for the next 30years and give them all i had. In other words creating a promisory note
But like i said, where is the contract between me and the bank? Wheres the mortgage deed as proof of the contract. Ooops that was shreeded and the information was logged onto MERS for the bank to avoid paying stamp duty on the transaction when it was securitized and sold on for profit.
Well i certainly never knew any of this was going to happen all because of me signing a load of papers. Full disclosure being part of a valid contract is gone now. Shall we continue.............
So what exactly is your gripe?
You agreed you borrowed the money, you agree you got a house in return for the mortgage you applied for free willing.
Your issue is the fact the bank then went and done some internal stuff and did whatever etc etc etc....
And now your basically arguing that you no longer owe the bank but some other entity and you want proof of this before agreeing to pay your mortgage that you can not afford and sure, even if the bank does give you the evidence your looking for you'll simple not pay it then cause you cant rather than won't.....
Have i summed that up in one?0 -
Ansuildunta are you sure you will be able to go back to the tracker? Im also with Ulster bank and also fixed for 5 years. I got a tracker mortgage when i bought and 3 years later switched to a 5 year fixed. I have spoken to 2 different people in Ulster Bank asking could i revert back to the tracker when the fixed period ends, and both said that it was not possible to get a tracker back, you go back to the standard variable rate. Another boardsie in same predicament Her fixed rate is up and her option letter is below. Unfortunatly it does not mention anything about a tracker. I would imagine it would make a big difference to your repayments if you could get the tracker back
I'm unsure of Ansuildunta's specifics but I got a tracker when I first got my mortgage but initially went on a fixed rate (which I came off of last August and went onto the tracker). I'm presuming this is their case too. Whereas it sounds like you were on a tracker, switched to a fixed and then hoped to get back to a tracker. This could mean you lost your tracker0 -
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unclebill98 wrote: »So what exactly is your gripe?
You agreed you borrowed the money, you agree you got a house in return for the mortgage you applied for free willing.
Your issue is the fact the bank then went and done some internal stuff and did whatever etc etc etc....
And now your basically arguing that you no longer owe the bank but some other entity and you want proof of this before agreeing to pay your mortgage that you can not afford and sure, even if the bank does give you the evidence your looking for you'll simple not pay it then cause you cant rather than won't.....
Have i summed that up in one?
You have and you haven't bill.
My issue is the fact that they dont own the loan and are claiming payment for something they dont own.
Honestly im only starting to understand it all and at first all seemed very bizzare.0
This discussion has been closed.
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