20% on Politicians Pensions above E100,000

Alibaba

A 20% cut in politicians pensions ABOVE E100,000.

A joke !!

About time this Government got real and CUT, REALLY CUT, 60 - 70 % at least.

And any of those people shouldn't qualify for a pension until they're 65.

This Government are going to introduce a draconian budget next week but how can they sell that when these people seem to be in another world.

Its a scandal .

Solair

I could understand a small % being high as there are some people who are the equivalent of CEOs in large companies e.g. maybe the Taoiseach, but that % is utterly ridiculous.

ardmacha

I agree that these pensions etc are excessive. However people routinely advocate here that the government just ignore arrangements made, which is not a proper way to run a country. If you get someone in to do a job on your house you cannot just decide not to pay them at the end because you thought of something else to spend the money on. These cuts are unprincipled, figures like 10%, 20% are plucked out of the air with no particular justification. Unprincipled government is bad government.

Alibaba

Solair wrote: »

I could understand a small % being high as there are some people who are the equivalent of CEOs in large companies e.g. maybe the Taoiseach, but that % is utterly ridiculous.

And the cut is only on the portion above 100k AFAIK

RobbieTheRobber

Alibaba wrote: »

And the cut is only on the portion above 100k AFAIK

12% is already applied to anything over 60,000 so now anything above 100,000 euro will be subject to a total levy of 20%

HellFireClub

What a load of absolute crap. How about on budget day, someone stands up in Leinster House and mutters the words, "and in addition to your pension being cut by 20%, you won't be able retire and access your pension until you actually reach retirement age, consistent with the rules that govern every single other person working in the state.

Morons.

jbkenn

ardmacha wrote: »

I agree that these pensions etc are excessive. However people routinely advocate here that the government just ignore arrangements made, which is not a proper way to run a country. If you get someone in to do a job on your house you cannot just decide not to pay them at the end because you thought of something else to spend the money on. These cuts are unprincipled, figures like 10%, 20% are plucked out of the air with no particular justification. Unprincipled government is bad government.

So you feel Mary McAleese is worth €160,000 per annum for 14 years freeloading in the Aras?, oh, and Martin of the Your Country Your Call cluster**** on his Senators salary and expenses to help cushion the blow?.
So you feel Peter Sutherland, a multimillionaire is entitled to €50,000 p.a. pension for 2 years 8 months and 9 days service in the early 1980's as Attorney General?.
As you sit down to your nice cup of Barry's Tea, you can glow in the fact that we pay one of the directors, Peter Barry €126,481 p.a.... and there were Lyons Tea thinking they were "all talk".
Tell me why we should pay a convicted shyster Ray Burke any pension at all, never mind €103,839 p.a.
Take pity on Mary Coughlan who at 46 has to wait another 4 years before she can collect her €130,000 at 50 years of age
All Public Service pensions should be capped at the average industrial wage of €35,000 p.a.
If you are happy for the taxpayer to borrow the billions to continue pay the Public Sector pension bill, so be it, I am not.

Icepick

HellFireClub wrote: »

What a load of absolute crap. How about on budget day, someone stands up in Leinster House and mutters the words, "and in addition to your pension being cut by 20%, you won't be able retire and access your pension until you actually reach retirement age

They have a contract, so you can't do that. Taxing it is the only (legal) way to go.

WalterMitty

More spin from this govenment, all the news headlines saying 20% cut on pensions of over 100,000 when its actually only the part over 100,000. All public servants should only get out what they put in in contributions plus inflation on those contributions plus a real life based investment return based on return of the average private sector pension fund during the period of their contributions.

WalterMitty

Icepick wrote: »

They have a contract, so you can't do that. Taxing it is the only (legal) way to go.

All contracts are negotiable when those liable under such contracts are bankrupt.

HellFireClub

Icepick wrote: »

They have a contract, so you can't do that. Taxing it is the only (legal) way to go.

All that's needed is that the legislation that exempts these parasites from the full effects of the Pensions Act, as per section 52(1) of the act, which exempts these numptys from the requirement (and any other criteria as the minister may see fit for that matter), that a person must reach their normal pensionable age before they get paid their pension entitlements, be rescinded and therefore, there are no contractual issues.

Their contracts are not the problem here, their contracts are irrelevant, the problem is section 52(1) of the Pension Act, 1990, which allows the Minister for Finance to exempt any party that he see's fit, from the standard rules of the Pensions Act that sets out the fundamental pension conditions and entitlements for every other employee in the state.

***********************************************************************************************

Exclusion from and modification of Part IV and Third Schedule .
52.—(1) Where the Minister considers that some or all of the benefits under specified schemes or categories of schemes are, or may be, paid in whole or in part out of moneys provided from the Central Fund or moneys provided by the Oireachtas, he may by regulations made with the consent of the Minister for Finance exclude those schemes or categories of schemes from the application of this Part and the Third Schedule .

(2) Where the Minister considers that—

(a) it would be unreasonable, having regard to their nature, character and resources and the methods by which benefits payable under them are funded, and

(b) it would be contrary to the interests of their members,

to require specified schemes or categories of schemes to comply fully with specified provisions of this Part and the Third Schedule , he may by regulations made with the consent of the Minister for Finance provide that those provisions shall apply in relation to those schemes or categories of schemes with specified modifications, being modifications that, in the opinion of the Minister, are reasonable and do not materially alter those provisions.
*************************************************************************************************

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0025/print.html#sec19

NIMAN

Too little, too late.

I think the Gov will be thinking we will all be over the moon on this, but we need more, a lot more. The wealthy elite are still taking the biscuit and it needs sorted.

If there's to be pain, then everyone must share in it. Everyone.

HellFireClub

NIMAN wrote: »

Too little, too late.

I think the Gov will be thinking we will all be over the moon on this, but we need more, a lot more. The wealthy elite are still taking the biscuit and it needs sorted.

If there's to be pain, then everyone must share in it. Everyone.

A crowd of exempt idiots being allowed to retire in their early 50's, idiots like Brian Cowen for example, a solicitor with a private practice, such a person being allowed to retire on a full Taoieach's pension, and probably a minsterial pension there on top of that, when he has 15-20 years of productive work left in him, is nothing other than a disgusting waste of tax payers money. He certainly doesn't look like he will be going hungry any time soon either, a more honourable man would hand it back, it'll still be there when he hits 65, but this is an example of more of it, greed greed and more greed....

Gumbo

WalterMitty wrote: »

More spin from this govenment, all the news headlines saying 20% cut on pensions of over 100,000 when its actually only the part over 100,000. All public servants should only get out what they put in in contributions plus inflation on those contributions plus a real life based investment return based on return of the average private sector pension fund during the period of their contributions.

Why not give PS employees the option to not contribute and look after their own pensions? I know i would if i could.

but how will the government find the funds each week to pay current pensioner's as we all know that it uses current contributions to pay current pensions.

ardmacha

These arrangements may be odious, but they have existed for some time and people were happy to re-elect the government that made these provisions. Bertie Ahern may be odious, but why should his pension be subject to a tax which the pension of "Fingers" Fingleton is not?

femur61

HellFireClub wrote: »

What a load of absolute crap. How about on budget day, someone stands up in Leinster House and mutters the words, "and in addition to your pension being cut by 20%, you won't be able retire and access your pension until you actually reach retirement age, consistent with the rules that govern every single other person working in the state.

Morons.

I agree with you, I think they are only softening people up to the idea of change. I think penny is dropping that country is broke, and the PS are some of the highest paid in the EU.

Good loser

ardmacha wrote: »

These arrangements may be odious, but they have existed for some time and people were happy to re-elect the government that made these provisions. Bertie Ahern may be odious, but why should his pension be subject to a tax which the pension of "Fingers" Fingleton is not?

Not good enough atall.

Our situation is getting more perilous by the day.

See what's happening in England.

Icepick

WalterMitty wrote: »

All contracts are negotiable when those liable under such contracts are bankrupt.

This is just messy and costly.
They should just tax it by 90% before these people reach retirement age and be done with it.

murphaph

Letter sent to my (would be minister TD) asking for his opinion on Bertie and Brian taking huge pensions well before reaching retirement age. Will see what comes back.

People need to DIRECTLY contact the government about this sort of issue and make sure they feel us breathing down their necks.

NIMAN

Can anyone explain why these folk can collect their pensions at any age whereas the rest of the working population (or plebs) have to wait until they get to 60 or 65 to collect a pension?

What makes them different to other workers? Or is it just the fact that they make the rules as as such look after themselves?

If this was happening 200yrs ago, they would have been hung, drawn and quartered by the public long ago.

WalterMitty

kceire wrote: »

Why not give PS employees the option to not contribute and look after their own pensions? I know i would if i could.

but how will the government find the funds each week to pay current pensioner's as we all know that it uses current contributions to pay current pensions.

The money wont be there to pay 50% pensions to hundreds of thousands of public servants in decades to come though so I agree you would be better off being able to opt out now and make your own provision if you are more than 15/20 years off retirement

Park Royal

This is a so called Republic .............?

with its citizens being treated equally.........and fairly.....?


some citizens are being subject to eviction from their houses......

others walk away with Rolls Rice huge Golden pensions into which they

didn't put a bob..........

The country is in crisis ......we have lost our Sovereignty........

we are bankrupt..........if ever there was a time to sort these obscene

pensions out its now.........but I fear Enda and Howlin and Pat Rabbitte among

others may be looking at their own circumstance when they depart......I hope

they prove me and the country wrong.......Enda your the Father of the house

lets see real leadership.....

07734

This might be a silly question, but these pensions are already subject to income tax, aren't they?

So is the 20% on top of income tax?

Sorry, it's still early....

FreudianSlippers

Alibaba wrote: »

A 20% cut in politicians pensions ABOVE E100,000.

A joke !!

About time this Government got real and CUT, REALLY CUT, 60 - 70 % at least.

And any of those people shouldn't qualify for a pension until they're 65.

This Government are going to introduce a draconian budget next week but how can they sell that when these people seem to be in another world.

Its a scandal .

Lala land. How prey tell do you suggest they do this legally?

FreudianSlippers

Park Royal wrote: »

This is a so called Republic .............?

with its citizens being treated equally.........and fairly.....?


some citizens are being subject to eviction from their houses......

others walk away with Rolls Rice huge Golden pensions into which they

didn't put a bob..........

The country is in crisis ......we have lost our Sovereignty........

we are bankrupt..........if ever there was a time to sort these obscene

pensions out its now.........but I fear Enda and Howlin and Pat Rabbitte among

others may be looking at their own circumstance when they depart......I hope

they prove me and the country wrong.......Enda your the Father of the house

lets see real leadership.....

Words/concepts you should look up:
Republic
Equality
Fairness
Pension contribution
Eviction process in Ireland
Sovereignty
Bankruptcy



:facepalm:

meglome

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Lala land. How prey tell do you suggest they do this legally?

It's a pity though the media don't make this a lot clearer. People just think the money can be taken off the recipients of these pensions.

Now I'm all for changing the rules on the new pensions and taxing the existing ones much more heavily as we just can't afford to pay them.

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

These arrangements may be odious, but they have existed for some time and people were happy to re-elect the government that made these provisions. Bertie Ahern may be odious, but why should his pension be subject to a tax which the pension of "Fingers" Fingleton is not?

Yeah but if you ask the majority of the electorate they did not see their pension entitlements when the distraction of making promises are put in front of them.....People were happy to re-elect on these promises nothing more....

fliball123

Park Royal wrote: »

This is a so called Republic .............?

with its citizens being treated equally.........and fairly.....?


some citizens are being subject to eviction from their houses......

others walk away with Rolls Rice huge Golden pensions into which they

didn't put a bob..........

The country is in crisis ......we have lost our Sovereignty........

we are bankrupt..........if ever there was a time to sort these obscene

pensions out its now.........but I fear Enda and Howlin and Pat Rabbitte among

others may be looking at their own circumstance when they depart......I hope

they prove me and the country wrong.......Enda your the Father of the house

lets see real leadership.....

George Orwells famous quote from Animal Farm "some animals are more equal then others" springs to mind

Solair

The problem, as I see it, is that politicians and senior public service fat cats hide behind frontline workers.

There is a huge layer of fat in the upper echelons of the public service bodies, civil service and also at middle/upper management level. The terms they're employed under are absolutely over the top and not comparable to the private sector at all.

The problem is that when they do inflict cuts, they hit the low paid public sector workers and tend to cut front line staff too.

Removing frontline staff makes services deteriorate and creates a political storm. I am starting to wonder if it's some kind of a spin-doctoring trick they're pulling i.e. if you cut the Dept of Health's budget they keep all the fat-cats and layers upon layers of bureaucracy while keeping the fat cat layers of management.

Then because politicians salaries and pensions are linked to civil service pay grades, they have no interest in cutting or modifying those grades.
That link is toxic, it's a conflict of interest and it needs to be absolutely severed.

We need a serious and very hardcore external audit of the entire system. Reform should not mean a serious diminishing of services, or getting rid of lots of low paid / average earner front line staff, it should mean doing things more efficiently and removing the huge overheads.

All I see with these cut backs is something like "operation human shield" where the fat-cats hide behind the ordinary workers.

WalterMitty

Solair wrote: »

The problem, as I see it, is that politicians and senior public service fat cats hide behind frontline workers.

There is a huge layer of fat in the upper echelons of the public service bodies, civil service and also at middle/upper management level. The terms they're employed under are absolutely over the top and not comparable to the private sector at all.

The problem is that when they do inflict cuts, they hit the low paid public sector workers and tend to cut front line staff too.

Removing frontline staff makes services deteriorate and creates a political storm. I am starting to wonder if it's some kind of a spin-doctoring trick they're pulling i.e. if you cut the Dept of Health's budget they keep all the fat-cats and layers upon layers of bureaucracy while keeping the fat cat layers of management.

Then because politicians salaries and pensions are linked to civil service pay grades, they have no interest in cutting or modifying those grades.
That link is toxic, it's a conflict of interest and it needs to be absolutely severed.

We need a serious and very hardcore external audit of the entire system. Reform should not mean a serious diminishing of services, or getting rid of lots of low paid / average earner front line staff, it should mean doing things more efficiently and removing the huge overheads.

All I see with these cut backs is something like "operation human shield" where the fat-cats hide behind the ordinary workers.

I agree. We should get in people from the best run public services in world like Scandinavia,Netherlands, France,Germany, Singapore and ask them to advise us on best structures ,practises etc or at very least look at what they do , how many chiefs to indians etc etc

Park Royal

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Words/concepts you should look up:
Republic
Equality
Fairness
Pension contribution
Eviction process in Ireland
Sovereignty
Bankruptcy



:facepalm:

Dear FreudianSlippers, I am still stuck on the word or concept "CRISIS"

......for some reason......its in my mind similar to the 5 of hearts....

as a result I cant forget it.....!

the culture of deference

Only in the land of fairies and lephrachauns would incompetents like Brian Cowen and Mary Harney be allowed to earn 3,000 euro a week in a pension from

tha age of 50


until they die, then it gets split to spouse then kids.

why do we let this happen

fliball123

the culture of deference wrote: »

Only in the land of fairies and lephrachauns would incompetents like Brian Cowen and Mary Harney be allowed to earn 3,000 euro a week in a pension from

tha age of 50


until they die, then it gets split to spouse then kids.

why do we let this happen

The kids dont get it ..the spouce may but the kids dont get it ...

Alibaba

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Lala land. How prey tell do you suggest they do this legally?

Well, They've already done it haven't they..ie cut the pensions.

Only thing is they didn't go at all far enough... They should have cut the whole pension by 70 - 80 %

Ahern and Cowens pension will drop by around 4,000 a year BUT they're still on around E145,000 which is.......... CRAZY .

And next week they will cut, child benefit , increase vat etc and hit the most badly off in society.

What kind of a Disneyland do these people think they are living in,

Until This Government PROPERLY adresses this issue and not just pussy footing around with it there will always be a deep distrust of politicians.

nesf

07734 wrote: »

This might be a silly question, but these pensions are already subject to income tax, aren't they?

So is the 20% on top of income tax?

Sorry, it's still early....

Yup, exactly. People are acting like these people don't pay income tax etc on these pensions. Any changes to the tax regime will affect these people as much as it affects anyone else in the country.

sparksfly

nesf wrote: »

Yup, exactly. People are acting like these people don't pay income tax etc on these pensions. Any changes to the tax regime will affect these people as much as it affects anyone else in the country.

"Anyone else in the country" does not get a guaranteed pension at any age, never mind at 50.
I cant believe people can still justify any support these parasites.

Dannyboy83

I would like to see the media run a name and shame campaign.
The government are not going to take steps to address this issue.

It's up to the media to publicly shame the political pension elite into handing 50% back to the state.

fliball123

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I would like to see the media run a name and shame campaign.
The government are not going to take steps to address this issue.

It's up to the media to publicly shame the political pension elite into handing 50% back to the state.

This would be a good measure..the same should be applie d to any private sector individual who had any hand in the banking fiasco....and call it bankrupcy tax...

nesf

sparksfly wrote: »

"Anyone else in the country" does not get a guaranteed pension at any age, never mind at 50.
I cant believe people can still justify any support these parasites.

I'm not justifying it, just am pointing out that they pay tax on these absurd pensions.

Samba

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I would like to see the media run a name and shame campaign. The government are not going to take steps to address this issue.

It's up to the media to publicly shame the political pension elite into handing 50% back to the state.

It cropped up, hardly what you would call an in depth analysis, but it's nice to see some of them have a conscience and they've opted to return part of or their entire pension. Eithne Fitzgerald has essentially forfeited her pension entitlements, i'd love to hear/read her views on the matter.

Linky

Another interesting link on Government pension funds

The section on funding certainly raises an eyebrow and with the current state of affairs, the current pension system is an unsustainable burden on our economy imho.

patwicklow

Well the rot is still at the top thats all i can say

Park Royal

I have to commend any of the recipients of the obscene Golden pensions who have offered to forego all or part of their pensions......

I recall one of them found it troublesome to keep his three houses, cars , housekeepers etc and him only on £100K in 1999......

Those were the days apparently when even Sligo developers could hand £50K
to FF........

It crossed my mind , if the 250 golden pension recipients , happened to be the officers and crew of the Titanic how many women and children would have actually made it into the life boats....?

murphaph

Park Royal wrote: »

It crossed my mind , if the 250 golden pension recipients , happened to be the officers and crew of the Titanic how many women and children would have actually made it into the life boats....?

What lifeboats?

Bannasidhe

murphaph wrote: »

What lifeboats?

Lifeboat provision has now been privatised and charges apply at point of usage a.k.a Pay-as-you-go lifeboats .

JaneyMacker

To tell the truth. If I was getting that pension id never give any of it up voluntarily.
But since this tax doesnt tax me, i say tax them til they bleed.

edgecutter

We need to Lynch the whole lot of them especially this fcuker.

bertieClap_172929t.jpg

JaneyMacker

sparksfly wrote: »

"Anyone else in the country" does not get a guaranteed pension at any age, never mind at 50.
I cant believe people can still justify any support these parasites.

Ehhhmm.
Never let the facts get in the way huh.
Everybody citizen in the country gets a guaranteed pension. At least a guaranteed as any pension can be called in the long run.

zero_hope

I propose that we tax all politicians 100% above the minimum wage threshold. Given the value that the politicians produce their tax rate should be above 100%.

Geuze

JaneyMacker wrote: »

Ehhhmm.
Never let the facts get in the way huh.
Everybody citizen in the country gets a guaranteed pension. At least a guaranteed as any pension can be called in the long run.

It is not true that every citizen in Irl gets a guaranteed pension.

Not everybody over 65 gets a State pension.

There are tens of thousands of people over 65 who do not, and never will, receive a State pension.

JaneyMacker

Geuze wrote: »

It is not true that every citizen in Irl gets a guaranteed pension.

Not everybody over 65 gets a State pension.

There are tens of thousands of people over 65 who do not, and never will, receive a State pension.

Who are these citizens who are not entitled to a state pension?

Geuze

If you didn't pay enough PRSI at class A or class S then you will not receive a CSP.

Thousands of workers either never paid PRSI class A, or not enough.

You may apply for the means-tested NC State Pension, but you may not pass the means-test.


I know plenty of people over 65 who do not receive a State Pension.