Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to join forces

jasonc5432

Seeing how Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are two cheeks of the same arse, isn't it time they joined forces?

Their policies are exactly the same. Their beliefs are exactly the same. Their behaviour in government is exactly the same.

Surely it would be easier if we just had them join forces, with their sworn enemy being those who do not support either of these two parties -- because that's how it is at present.

No?

whippet

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Their policies are exactly the same. Their beliefs are exactly the same. Their behaviour in government is exactly the same.

Actually .. what you should be saying is that:

They are both doing what the IMF/EU are telling them to do .. and the same senior civil servants are still in the background running the departments.

jasonc5432

whippet wrote: »

Actually .. what you should be saying is that:

They are both doing what the IMF/EU are telling them to do .. and the same senior civil servants are still in the background running the departments.

The point is, they are the exact same. Both right wing. Both believing in the exact same approaches to solve the crisis.

Isnt it time Irish people started to realize that there is no difference between them, so if we want something 'different', we must refuse to vote for Fine Gael or Fianna Fail.

Of course, there are those who do not want anything different.

There are those who believe that the worst economic depression in the history of the state is decent form.

But, surely people who live in the real world have to start seeing that voting for FF or FG is a vote for more of this same old rubbish politics.

Neither party even has a strong ideology anyway.. aside from cronyism, nepotism, back slapping, and gombeenism, but aside from those admirable virtues, they stand for nothing except themselves in the main.

Now, dont get me wrong, there are some good people in both parties. However, they are a minority.

raymon

I disagree ,

Fianna fail were a rag tag bunch of traitors, thieves ,perjurors , tax evaders, misrepresenters, brown envelope collectors, dodgy bankers etc etc ad nauseum

I have not seen these traits in abundance in other parties .

I'm not a fan of FG / Labour but FF are in a different league completely

jasonc5432

raymon wrote: »

I disagree ,

Fianna fail were a rag tag bunch of traitors, thieves ,perjurors , tax evaders, misrepresenters, brown envelope collectors, dodgy bankers etc etc ad nauseum

I have not seen these traits in abundance in other parties .

I'm not a fan of FG / Labour but FF are in a different league completely

You have not heard of any high profile FG corruption scandals over the past 20 years?

You dont know about Ruairi Quinn's pledge to the 3rd level education students?

FG and Labour have just recently handed over circa 800 million to unsecured bondholders, who bought them as junk on secondary markets gambling on a return.

At the same time, FG and Labour are expecting the rest of us take austerity.

FG and FF are disasters. Labour are catching up quite quickly. Irish politics has moved so far to the right that we are now engaging the idea of closing down nursing homes that house our elderly, the people who built this country.

Why?

In favour of funding the lavish bonuses of bankers, millionaire ministerial pensions, and unsecured junk bondholders.

If that is not corruption, I do not know what is.

Corruption is defined as:
"The action of making someone or something morally depraved or the state of being so."

Taking money from the poorest to continue funding the richest is about as morally depraved as it gets

Chucky the tree

jasonc5432 wrote: »

The point is, they are the exact same. Both right wing. Both believing in the exact same approaches to solve the crisis.

Isnt it time Irish people started to realize that there is no difference between them, so if we want something 'different', we must refuse to vote for Fine Gael or Fianna Fail.

Of course, there are those who do not want anything different.

There are those who believe that the worst economic depression in the history of the state is decent form.

But, surely people who live in the real world have to start seeing that voting for FF or FG is a vote for more of this same old rubbish politics.

Neither party even has a strong ideology anyway.. aside from cronyism, nepotism, back slapping, and gombeenism, but aside from those admirable virtues, they stand for nothing except themselves in the main.

Now, dont get me wrong, there are some good people in both parties. However, they are a minority.

Your rant has seemingly distract you a bit. Also, Fianna Fail are not right wing. We wouldn't be in this mess if they were.

jasonc5432

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Your rant has seemingly distract you a bit. Also, Fianna Fail are not right wing. We wouldn't be in this mess if they were.

Socially,
Right wing = conservative

Fianna Fail are conservative.


Economically,
Right wing = neoliberal

Fianna Fail are neoliberal.

jasonc5432

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Your rant has seemingly distract you a bit. Also, Fianna Fail are not right wing. We wouldn't be in this mess if they were.

^^ Your lack of knowledge appears to have distracted you a bit

Chucky the tree

I didn't realise neoliberalism was in favour of huge increases in social welfare and child benefits. I also didn't know it supported a large increase in public sector worker numbers and wages and making Trade Unions your bed fellow.

jasonc5432

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I didn't realise neoliberalism was in favour of huge increases in social welfare and child benefits. I also didn't know it supported a large increase in public sector worker numbers and wages and making Trade Unions your bed fellow.

You are quite right. But neoliberalism in its extreme would not have any state interventions whatsoever. So, by your extreme definition, no party is neoliberal.

The reality is, very few politicians would ever fully fit a specific 'tag'. However, some fit more closely than others, and thus are referred to as sympathizing with that political philosophy.

The fact is, fianna fail is by and large a huge proponent of neoliberalism.

You are quite wrong saying fianna fail are not right wing.
Again, they are not as right wing as Fascist dictators. But, right of centre, they are.

Surely youll agree with that?

headmaster

jasonc,
please do not embarass yourself anymore than you have to. Saying FF and by definition FG, are/were right wing, is a very stupid statement indeed.

Chucky the tree

jasonc5432 wrote: »

You are quite right. But neoliberalism in its extreme would not have any state interventions whatsoever. So, by your extreme definition, no party is neoliberal.

The reality is, very few politicians would ever fully fit a specific 'tag'. However, some fit more closely than others, and thus are referred to as sympathizing with that political philosophy.

The fact is, fianna fail is by and large a huge proponent of neoliberalism.

You are quite wrong saying fianna fail are not right wing.
Again, they are not as right wing as Fascist dictators. But, right of centre, they are.

Surely youll agree with that?

Well I never said any party was neoliberal, however you are the one who claimed fianna Fail were. I don't agree they are right of certain, I think they are centre. They favour some right wing polices and favour some left wing policies. They'll basically do or say anything for votes so it's very hard to label them as right or left wing.

jasonc5432

headmaster wrote: »

jasonc,
please do not embarass yourself anymore than you have to. Saying FF and by definition FG, are/were right wing, is a very stupid statement indeed.

Define right wing and tell us why FF and FG do not fit?

We have Far left, centre left = Left wing

Centrists

And, Centre right, and far right = Right wing.


Thats a basic taxonomy.

Left wingers promote change.

Right wingers promote conservatism.

Now, let's see your version?... if you have a clue what youre on about that is

jasonc5432

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well I never said any party was neoliberal, however you are the one who claimed fianna Fail were. I don't agree they are right of certain, I think they are centre. They favour some right wing polices and favour some left wing policies. They'll basically do or say anything for votes so it's very hard to label them as right or left wing.

I agree with much of the above.

The centre vs right is not vital anyway.

The political approaches of FF and FG are the same though.

whippet

raymon wrote: »

Fianna fail were a rag tag bunch of traitors, thieves ,perjurors , tax evaders, misrepresenters, brown envelope collectors, dodgy bankers etc etc ad nauseum

I have not seen these traits in abundance in other parties .

you haven't seen these traits in abundance in FG and the other as they haven't been in power enough to abuse that power.

In reality the makeup of the irish political system lends itself to this sort of nonsense.

Sure look at one of FG's ex-stalwarts Lowery still topping polls in Tipp ...

irishh_bob

jasonc5432 wrote: »

The point is, they are the exact same. Both right wing. Both believing in the exact same approaches to solve the crisis.

Isnt it time Irish people started to realize that there is no difference between them, so if we want something 'different', we must refuse to vote for Fine Gael or Fianna Fail.

Of course, there are those who do not want anything different.

There are those who believe that the worst economic depression in the history of the state is decent form.

But, surely people who live in the real world have to start seeing that voting for FF or FG is a vote for more of this same old rubbish politics.

Neither party even has a strong ideology anyway.. aside from cronyism, nepotism, back slapping, and gombeenism, but aside from those admirable virtues, they stand for nothing except themselves in the main.

Now, dont get me wrong, there are some good people in both parties. However, they are a minority.

fianna fail are populist

fine gael are moderatley conservative - centre right

we dont have a right wing party in this country , nearly all the parties hover around the centre like a white line in the middle of a road , then again irish people are deeply unidealogical and they say you get the politicans you deserve

Manach

Based on purely conservative PoV, neither FG/FF are truly socially conservative and would tend to be centralist from a European standpoint.

Dob74

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I didn't realise neoliberalism was in favour of huge increases in social welfare and child benefits. I also didn't know it supported a large increase in public sector worker numbers and wages and making Trade Unions your bed fellow.

FF's problem is they stand for nothing.
The only reason they gave PS workers increases is because they are scared of the Unions. Preferring to pay top dollar for senior PSWer's while those in the bottom grades get paid poorly.
Child benefit is doled out to millionaire and peasants at the same rate.

Given there record on regulation, lack of corporate governance and scewing the justice/planning systems to work for the wealthy.
I would consider them a right wing party.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

thebman

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well Britain has the same situation pretty much with Liberal Democrats and Tory's in together yet being at odds with each other on a lot of issues.

raymon

whippet wrote: »

you haven't seen these traits in abundance in FG and the other as they haven't been in power enough to abuse that power.

In reality the makeup of the irish political system lends itself to this sort of nonsense.

Sure look at one of FG's ex-stalwarts Lowery still topping polls in Tipp ...

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Lowry is a corrupt politician .... this is undisputed

Lowry was expelled from FG for being corrupt

FF welcomed Lowry into their arms.... birds of a feather

I'm no fan of FG but what is your point ?

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

dsmythy

Fianna Fáil are do whatever gets them into powerists. Give people pension pay and dole way over inflation means votes. And they did that for 10 years. Imagine if fiscal conservatives were in charge during the boom before the bubble?

Fine Gael have a slightly more ideological bent to them but will fail to push through with them because it costs votes. We need a party of the right that will say what they want to do and stick with it regardless if it means people vote for them or not. People would turn around eventually when they try every other failure.

whippet

raymon wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Lowry is a corrupt politician .... this is undisputed

Lowry was expelled from FG for being corrupt

FF welcomed Lowry into their arms.... birds of a feather

I'm no fan of FG but what is your point ?

Lowry was just an example that every political party in Ireland has some level of corruption .... But being in power give more opportunity to exploit the potential of corruption.

If FG were in power for the last 17 years or so do you think they wouldn't have made nice bed fellows with the developers, bankers etc like FF did?

What seems to have been overlooked a lot in recent commentary is that FF didn't have control of many county councils in the last decade. The level of corruption at council level especially in regard to planning was crazy .....

My point being ... The irish political system almost by default promotes corruption. The county council system is a shambles.

murphaph

jasonc5432 wrote: »

The point is, they are the exact same. Both right wing. Both believing in the exact same approaches to solve the crisis.

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Neither party even has a strong ideology anyway.. aside from cronyism, nepotism, back slapping, and gombeenism, but aside from those admirable virtues, they stand for nothing except themselves in the main.

Lol'ed at that. Make up your mind FFS Jason!

You don't really seem to know what you're talking about to be honest.

No party that presided over increases in welfare payments that way outstripped inflation could be considered conservative, never mind right wing as you put it, so that's FF out of the equation.

I had hoped that FG would provide a viable conservative (fiscally, not socially) alternative but it seems FG are happy to try to keep the CPA ticking over and borrowing to pay wages in the PS which we can't afford.

There are no real conservative parties in Ireland Jason.

jasonc5432

whippet wrote: »

Lowry was just an example that every political party in Ireland has some level of corruption .... But being in power give more opportunity to exploit the potential of corruption.

If FG were in power for the last 17 years or so do you think they wouldn't have made nice bed fellows with the developers, bankers etc like FF did?

What seems to have been overlooked a lot in recent commentary is that FF didn't have control of many county councils in the last decade. The level of corruption at council level especially in regard to planning was crazy .....

My point being ... The irish political system almost by default promotes corruption. The county council system is a shambles.

I agree, FF and FG are indistinguishable and considering them separate parties on issues, aside from civil war ones, is ludicrous.

They espouse the same policies. They are the same.

The current and previous gogernment have been exactly the same substantively

raymon

whippet wrote: »

Lowry was just an example that every political party in Ireland has some level of corruption .... But being in power give more opportunity to exploit the potential of corruption.

If FG were in power for the last 17 years or so do you think they wouldn't have made nice bed fellows with the developers, bankers etc like FF did?

What seems to have been overlooked a lot in recent commentary is that FF didn't have control of many county councils in the last decade. The level of corruption at council level especially in regard to planning was crazy .....

My point being ... The irish political system almost by default promotes corruption. The county council system is a shambles.

If you take your example of lowry .... FG expelled him FF took him into their gang of thieves.

You raised the example of lowry ...... I don't see your point.

If anything it says that FG do not want corrupt TDs like lowry in their ranks

jasonc5432

raymon wrote: »

If you take your example of lowry .... FG expelled him FF took him into their gang of thieves.

You raised the example of lowry ...... I don't see your point.

If anything it says that FG do not want corrupt TDs like lowry in their ranks

Lowry was corrupt, while in FG. They kicked him out. Good call.

But, cronyism is alive and well in FG. FG LOVE cronyism:

Taoiseach breaches Govt's salary cap for special advisors - report | BreakingNews.ie: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-breaches-govts-salary-cap-for-special-advisors--report-530842.html#.TttWYCYuuQA.twitter

irishh_bob

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

a huge number of people in ireland still vote along family lines

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

If you take your example of lowry .... FG expelled him FF took him into their gang of thieves.

You raised the example of lowry ...... I don't see your point.

If anything it says that FG do not want corrupt TDs like lowry in their ranks

They were more than happy to keep Lowry on board until he had finished his campaign of fund-raising for FG - he sure as hell was good at that!

irishh_bob

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

the lib dems make up but a tiny percentage of that coalition and thier lousy poll ratings suggest they wont be keen to walk anytime soon

jasonc5432

irishh_bob wrote: »

a huge number of people in ireland still vote along family lines

And, even better, many people will vote for candidates PURELY because of their own individual candidate's family lineage.

However, if that's what the people vote for, that is what they must get.

That is democracy, so I wont question the right of those individuals to serve.

However, the quality of many of these 'sons' and 'daughters' and 'brothers' etc is clearly, in hindsight, fairly poor.

If the quality of people voted into government was higher, then surely our politics/government would be of higher quality.

Instead... we continuously voted for people of the stock of Bertie Ahern -- a man who STILL has supporters countrywide, who I often bump into.

Irish politics is quite strange in various ways.

At least if FF and FG had a merger, then at least we would begin to have some choice -- that is ---

1. Traditional back slapping yahoo boys of FF and FG

or

2. Someone OTHER THAN the traditional back slappers -- ANYONE!

Bannasidhe

raymon wrote: »

I disagree ,

Fianna fail were a rag tag bunch of traitors, thieves ,perjurors , tax evaders, misrepresenters, brown envelope collectors, dodgy bankers etc etc ad nauseum

I have not seen these traits in abundance in other parties .

I'm not a fan of FG / Labour but FF are in a different league completely

How about cronyism and making sure your supporters get a good feed from the public trough?

If true this smacks of job-for-the-boys cronyism to me:

Enda Kenny personally overruled two Cabinet ministers to secure a €35,000 pay increase for a close friend and former adviser, the Irish Mail on Sunday can reveal.
The Taoiseach, who will tonight tell the nation why we need to accept €4bn in Budget cuts, insisted his one-time spin doctor Ciarán Conlon be given a 37% pay increase by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2069731/How-Irish-PM-ordered-officials-break-salary-cap-old-friend-PR-adviser.html#ixzz1fZLiw9S8

Sierra Oscar

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How about cronyism and making sure your supporters get a good feed from the public trough?

If true this smacks of job-for-the-boys cronyism to me:

Oh there are already plenty of examples of FG cronyism since the party took up office.

Five out of six judges appointed have connections to Fine Gael or Labour

JUDICIARY: THE GOVERNMENT has nominated six judges to date – and five have a personal, family or funding link to Fine Gael or Labour.

I think it is yet to dawn on some FG supporters on Boards.ie that FG are now actually in government and accordingly it is time for the party to practice what it breached for over a decade.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

D500B

As someone who is right wing in terms of economics I find it very frustrating that at some elections you know that Labour are definitely going to be in government even if they are only a small portion of the national vote. They will just be kingmakers as the FF and FG will never form a coalition despite the high level of common ground.
It really is time Fine Gael and Fianna fail stopped it with the civil war. Nobody cares about that anymore.

jasonc5432

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How about cronyism and making sure your supporters get a good feed from the public trough?

If true this smacks of job-for-the-boys cronyism to me:

AND, the daily mail story is from the United Kingdom's Daily Mail. url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1fZLiw9S8[/url

How embarrassing.... we are the laughing stock of the world.

FF and FG supporters will defend their 'boy-os' to the death though.

Yup ya boy yeh! Id say they spend more time thinking about their annual party p1ss-ups than they do about the people of Ireland.

The same old story with FF and FG.

Roll on 2012 until I get all Irish commitments finished up and get out of this mess of a country, leaving far behind this band of political travesties

Border-Rat

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Seeing how Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are two cheeks of the same arse, isn't it time they joined forces?

Their policies are exactly the same. Their beliefs are exactly the same. Their behaviour in government is exactly the same.

Surely it would be easier if we just had them join forces, with their sworn enemy being those who do not support either of these two parties -- because that's how it is at present.

No?

You just don't get it, they need to be kept seperate to keep up the charade of 'Democracy' in the South.

IngazZagni

As a matter of interest Jason 5432, what party or political system do you support? You give me the impression that you think it's only FF/FG that are involved in cronyism, and old hat politics. Who should we turn to to escape this type of politics, or do you believe there is a viable alternative?

jasonc5432

D500B wrote: »

As someone who is right wing in terms of economics I find it very frustrating that at some elections you know that Labour are definitely going to be in government even if they are only a small portion of the national vote. They will just be kingmakers as the FF and FG will never form a coalition despite the high level of common ground.
It really is time Fine Gael and Fianna fail stopped it with the civil war. Nobody cares about that anymore.

While I do not fully subscribe to your economic perspective, I wholeheartedly agree with your above comments and couldnt have put it better myself.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Somalion

D500B wrote: »

As someone who is right wing in terms of economics I find it very frustrating that at some elections you know that Labour are definitely going to be in government even if they are only a small portion of the national vote. They will just be kingmakers as the FF and FG will never form a coalition despite the high level of common ground.
It really is time Fine Gael and Fianna fail stopped it with the civil war. Nobody cares about that anymore.

Been reading through this thread and just thought I'd chime in to say I couldn't have said it better myself. This FF vs FG crap has went on too long.

jasonc5432

IngazZagni wrote: »

As a matter of interest Jason 5432, what party or political system do you support? You give me the impression that you think it's only FF/FG that are involved in cronyism, and old hat politics. Who should we turn to to escape this type of politics, or do you believe there is a viable alternative?

The pendulum system of swinging between FF and FG prevents credible alternatives from growing in Ireland.

This is exactly the problem.

I vote independent in the main.

I vote for the person who satisfies my specifications on basic criteria -- economic policy, social policy, environmental/energy/agri policy.

I have voted labour in the past, but regret that now. The current labour party appear to be a bit like the greens were at last government -- too weak to demand what they want (IF it is anything different) and too selfish to resign from government.

I believe that there is always a viable alternative. Politics is an ever evolving facet of any culture.

However, as i say above, the continuous movement from one group of self serving crony-ists to another (FF and FG) serves to stagnate Irish politics.

I blame it for much of the decline in the quality of irish political debate for example.

Discourse on political issues amongst many supporters of FF and FG is often quite a vacuum.

Of course, I know many FF and FG supporters who are excellent people. In fact, many people in FF and FG, as TDs, are excellent people -- however, the majority subscribe to something more akin to a mob mentality, than a public-service political-life one.

It is a shame.

Of course, it is the people who choose the politicians, so we must hold the mirror up to ourselves too -- we must make better choices. Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny our last two national leaders -- no wonder we are in this mess.

irishh_bob

jasonc5432 wrote: »

The pendulum system of swinging between FF and FG prevents credible alternatives from growing in Ireland.

This is exactly the problem.

I vote independent in the main.

I vote for the person who satisfies my specifications on basic criteria -- economic policy, social policy, environmental/energy/agri policy.

I have voted labour in the past, but regret that now. The current labour party appear to be a bit like the greens were at last government -- too weak to demand what they want (IF it is anything different) and too selfish to resign from government.

I believe that there is always a viable alternative. Politics is an ever evolving facet of any culture.

However, as i say above, the continuous movement from one group of self serving crony-ists to another (FF and FG) serves to stagnate Irish politics.

I blame it for much of the decline in the quality of irish political debate for example.

Discourse on political issues amongst many supporters of FF and FG is often quite a vacuum.

Of course, I know many FF and FG supporters who are excellent people. In fact, many people in FF and FG, as TDs, are excellent people -- however, the majority subscribe to something more akin to a mob mentality, than a public-service political-life one.

It is a shame.

Of course, it is the people who choose the politicians, so we must hold the mirror up to ourselves too -- we must make better choices. Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny our last two national leaders -- no wonder we are in this mess.

so bye and large your a labour party voter ?

jasonc5432

irishh_bob wrote: »

so bye and large your a labour party voter ?

Absolutely not.

I've voted for them once in general elections. Once.

All other votes went to independent candidates.

Interestingly, the labour candidate I voted for has 'resigned' in protest.

So, I still consider my choice a good one.

However, as a party, I wont choose them again.

So... ""by and large"" -- NO!

invinciblePRSTV

irishh_bob wrote: »

jasonc5432 wrote: »

The pendulum system of swinging between FF and FG prevents credible alternatives from growing in Ireland.

This is exactly the problem.

I vote independent in the main.

I vote for the person who satisfies my specifications on basic criteria -- economic policy, social policy, environmental/energy/agri policy.

I have voted labour in the past, but regret that now. The current labour party appear to be a bit like the greens were at last government -- too weak to demand what they want (IF it is anything different) and too selfish to resign from government.

I believe that there is always a viable alternative. Politics is an ever evolving facet of any culture.

However, as i say above, the continuous movement from one group of self serving crony-ists to another (FF and FG) serves to stagnate Irish politics.

I blame it for much of the decline in the quality of irish political debate for example.

Discourse on political issues amongst many supporters of FF and FG is often quite a vacuum.

Of course, I know many FF and FG supporters who are excellent people. In fact, many people in FF and FG, as TDs, are excellent people -- however, the majority subscribe to something more akin to a mob mentality, than a public-service political-life one.

It is a shame.

Of course, it is the people who choose the politicians, so we must hold the mirror up to ourselves too -- we must make better choices. Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny our last two national leaders -- no wonder we are in this mess.

so bye and large your a labour party voter ?

Did you bother reading the 3rd sentence of what you replied to? y'know where he says he mainly votes independent? I'm on a mobile so i can't use the rolleyes smiley but your post most certainly deserves it.

IngazZagni

jasonc5432 wrote: »

The pendulum system of swinging between FF and FG prevents credible alternatives from growing in Ireland.

This is exactly the problem.

I vote independent in the main.

I vote for the person who satisfies my specifications on basic criteria -- economic policy, social policy, environmental/energy/agri policy.

I have voted labour in the past, but regret that now. The current labour party appear to be a bit like the greens were at last government -- too weak to demand what they want (IF it is anything different) and too selfish to resign from government.

I believe that there is always a viable alternative. Politics is an ever evolving facet of any culture.

However, as i say above, the continuous movement from one group of self serving crony-ists to another (FF and FG) serves to stagnate Irish politics.

I blame it for much of the decline in the quality of irish political debate for example.

Discourse on political issues amongst many supporters of FF and FG is often quite a vacuum.

Of course, I know many FF and FG supporters who are excellent people. In fact, many people in FF and FG, as TDs, are excellent people -- however, the majority subscribe to something more akin to a mob mentality, than a public-service political-life one.

It is a shame.

Of course, it is the people who choose the politicians, so we must hold the mirror up to ourselves too -- we must make better choices. Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny our last two national leaders -- no wonder we are in this mess.

I think the fact that you can't provide a viable alternative says it all. I don't understand how you can criticize the Irish people for voting people like Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny into office and yet have no other preference yourself.

I think it's unfair to criticize Labour in Government for not giving us left wing decisions. They are the junior party in coalition remember and the best they can do is filter any decisions by FG that Lab may think are too extreme. People voted for LAB so they could be in Government. Backing out of Gov would be an injustice to their voters and create even more problems for our Country.

This attitude of always hating politicians and the establishment etc etc is hurting politics. Becoming a politician is something someone decides to do and it takes a lot of effort for one to become elected. When the Country blankets all politicians as the same and they are all bad people blah blah is preventing our young people from becoming politicians. Just look at the Dail or the Senate. Who is representing our youth or campaigning for (real) change and not just talking about it? Actually what is the average age of our elected representatives? I'm not sure but I'd say it's quite high.

I also feel that voting for independents in the main is the wrong thing to do. I mean having independents is good and I myself gave an independent my number 1 in the last election but having an independent Government would not work. Look at the last Government. When FF where hanging on by a thread they looked to independents to vote with them and that's where cronyism was shown at it's finest. "You'll get your bypass and that hospital if you vote in favor of our plans".

jasonc5432

IngazZagni wrote: »

I think the fact that you can't provide a viable alternative says it all. I don't understand how you can criticize the Irish people for voting people like Bertie Ahern and Enda Kenny into office and yet have no other preference yourself.

I think it's unfair to criticize Labour in Government for not giving us left wing decisions. They are the junior party in coalition remember and the best they can do is filter any decisions by FG that Lab may think are too extreme. People voted for LAB so they could be in Government. Backing out of Gov would be an injustice to their voters and create even more problems for our Country.

This attitude of always hating politicians and the establishment etc etc is hurting politics. Becoming a politician is something someone decides to do and it takes a lot of effort for one to become elected. When the Country blankets all politicians as the same and they are all bad people blah blah is preventing our young people from becoming politicians. Just look at the Dail or the Senate. Who is representing our youth or campaigning for (real) change and not just talking about it? Actually what is the average age of our elected representatives? I'm not sure but I'd say it's quite high.

I also feel that voting for independents in the main is the wrong thing to do. I mean having independents is good and I myself gave an independent my number 1 in the last election but having an independent Government would not work. Look at the last Government. When FF where hanging on by a thread they looked to independents to vote with them and that's where cronyism was shown at it's finest. "You'll get your bypass and that hospital if you vote in favor of our plans".

So -- to sum up the above -- Bertie, Enda, FF, FG, and Labour are all great.

And if anyone has a problem with that then 'it says is all', and you 'dont understand how anyone could criticise' Bertie or the people who voted for him.

Ok. Well. Right. Clearly...emm... no ... actually... no... Im going to start reading more about the potential destinations Ive listed to move to in 2012.

Rather than discuss those points

IngazZagni

jasonc5432 wrote: »

So -- to sum up the above -- Bertie, Enda, FF, FG, and Labour are all great.

And if anyone has a problem with that then 'it says is all', and you 'dont understand how anyone could criticise' Bertie or the people who voted for him.

Ok. Well. Right. Clearly...emm... no ... actually... no... Im going to start reading more about the potential destinations Ive listed to move to in 2012.

Rather than discuss those points

The point I'm making is that if you can't give me an alternative then how can you criticize others for voting for these people? Are they the best of a bad bunch. I think that may be the case although in the case of Bertie, a liar and a fraud that really only came to light in his latter years.

Oh and I'm in a job that has me moving all over Europe and let me tell you, the grass is not always greener on the other side. I'm typing this from Madrid. A nice city to visit but dig deeper and you find that it's probably far worse than Ireland in many respects. Corruption galore and close to a 50% unemployment rate for young people. It's really sad. Unions that make Irish Unions look really efficient etc etc. Avoid Italy like the plague and Countries like the Netherlands that I really like are beginning to show signs of strain. There is nowhere like home...

jasonc5432

IngazZagni wrote: »

The point I'm making is that if you can't give me an alternative then how can you criticize others for voting for these people? Are they the best of a bad bunch. I think that may be the case although in the case of Bertie, a liar and a fraud that really only came to light in his latter years.

Oh and I'm in a job that has me moving all over Europe and let me tell you, the grass is not always greener on the other side. I'm typing this from Madrid. A nice city to visit but dig deeper and you find that it's probably far worse than Ireland in many respects. Corruption galore and close to a 50% unemployment rate for young people. It's really sad. Unions that make Irish Unions look really efficient etc etc. Avoid Italy like the plague and Countries like the Netherlands that I really like are beginning to show signs of strain. There is nowhere like home...

That there is 'nowhere like Ireland' is very true in many ways. Some positive, but many increasingly negative.

For this reason, I know that the grass is in fact 'greener' as you put it in many ways in places like Denmark and Sweden and Norway.

These are primary on my list of alternative destinations for 2012, for various reasons -- social policy reasons, and economic policy reasons.

A large part of me wants to stay in Ireland, but next year provides me an ideal opportunity to make a transition career-wise, and with this in mind -- the aforementioned countries certainly provider sounder alternatives than Ireland does right now Im afraid.

If Irish politics showed signs of change I would stay, but it doesnt, and if anything I believe it is deteriorating... lots of mice chasing tails, lots of back slappers, lots of yahoos, but very few people truly interested in representing the people of Ireland in a responsible and reflective manner.

Ellis Dee

I see them as six of one and half a dozen of the other. The only difference is that FF were in power for too long at a time when the trough was pretty full (mainly because the global economy was booming) and not many got worked up over the corruption and greed of the political class and its business allies. Give FG the same opportunity and they would be as bad - or worse.:):):)