Limerick Traveller Family story in Irish Times

Kess73

Sid_Justice wrote: »

There are social barriers to interbreeding between Travellers and non-Travellers. Travellers almost exclusively reproduce within their own numbers. Within a number of generations, this activity will make you genetically distinguishable from non-Travellers by testing for specific genetic markers. One method of demonstrating Travellers' genetic distinction is there increased prevalence of recessive traits such as Galactosemia. All Irish travellers with Galactosemia have the Q188R allele on the 9p13. Irish travellers who don't have Galactosemia, who aren't homozygous for this gene, may be heterozygous. The phenotype doesn't matter, I don't know why you made that erroneous assumption or incorrectly inferred this is what I believe. The important criteria for genetic distinction is increased prevalence of rare genes.

Are am I right in assuming you consider Irish people a separate ethnic group. Separate culture, language, shared genetic and geographical ancestry. Irish people aren't just British people who live on an island and inbred, they're not just white European. It's a separate ethnicity in my definition.

Following on from this line of reasoning, Irish Travellers have their own culture, language, shared ancestry and originally come from the same geographical region, despite, their spread across UK and America.



I don't see any point here. We were discussing ethnicity, specifically, genetic arguments for ethnicity and then you start pontificating about social services and taxation. People born here to Nigerian parents 'can avail of the same social services, treated in the same manner as an Irish citizen and afforded the same rights to live by'. This doesn't make any difference to their ethnicity, which I wouldn't describe as Irish or White Irish as they're ethnically Nigerian (West-African) but are Irish in terms of nationality/citizenry*.

My argument is Travellers are a separate ethnic group, you questioned my reasoning, I explained my reasoning, and then you brought in this topic. That lead to me thinking you actually don't understand the argument.

The thread is not just about ethnicity, and I was not speaking about ethnicity when I made my point. You are the one who keeps bringing ethnicity into it.

As for travellers being a seperate ethnic group, well I respect your opinion in that you see them as one, but I do not see them as one and as such am not trying to discuss them as being one.

You seem to be the only person who is claiming the discussion in the thread is just about ethnicity. It smacks of a person who wants to drag a conversation in one direction only and to strawman as much as possible.

Oh by the way the phenotype does matter when it comes to inbreeding, but I am sure you can find that info in the same place that you took your other info from.


I have posted in this thread based on the article in the first post, and given my own opinion on travellers in general as well as travellers of one surname. You can claim that they are an ethnic group if you like, I see them as no such thing and find the claim to be laughable whenever I hear it. But I guess the claims of being a seperate ethnic group has been shown to be a handy way for some sections of the travelluing community to avoid accepting responsibity for certain social issues and criminal issues, and get trotted out time and time again to suit arguements.

I think I have been pretty clear in this thread in how I generally see travellers, and tend only to refer to them as travellers in threads like this because in day to day life I simply see them as people and not some tag or title, and certainly not a ethnic group.


As for you assuming I see the Irish as a totally seperate enthnic group for the reasons you gave/assumed, well I don't see the Irish as a totally seperate ethnic group but rather as one that shares many of it's ethnic traits with a number of other groups, and as such is more of a sub group than a truly individual group.

Genetically I would not certainly not have thought of the British in terms of the Irish and ethnicity. My mind would have gone to the Basque Country.

In terms of shared language and to a large degree culture the British comparison would be more valid alright imho as trying to use the Irish language at this point as some kind of proof of a seperate language that helps define a seperate ethnicity is a weak arguement at best given that the vast majority of Irish have little to no real fluency in the language and it does not even rank in the top three languages on the island in terms of how frequently it is spoken.

Sid_Justice

bigpink wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2011/1128/1224308217459.html
Well Travellers wanted to be treated equal but then they want to be an seperate ethic race:rolleyes:

bobbysands81 wrote: »

'Travellers' have as much a claim to ethnic minority status as 'Mayo Hurlers' have.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Somebody called Travellers an ethnic minority, they're not.* I'm pointing out that Mayo Hurlers have as much right to call themselves an ethnic minority as Travellers do.

*This is not a slur on Travellers, many travellers themselves don't consider themselves an ethnic minority.

For the record (and clarity) I'm using the Collins English Dictionary definition of ethnic minority:

ethnic minority

an immigrant or racial group regarded by those claiming to speak for the cultural majority as distinct and unassimilated

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Travellers are genetically distinct with their own culture and language. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't get ethnically distinct status.

kinseydub wrote: »

Could you elaborate how travellers are genetically distinctt ?

Kess73 wrote: »

It does not make them genetically distinct

Kess73 wrote: »

genetic distinctions,

You seem to be the only person who is claiming the discussion in the thread is just about ethnicity.

yeah , obviously I am the only one talking about the actual topic of the thread...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You quote my posts and then tell me what I'm talking about...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Brennans Row

bigpink wrote: »

. . . . . . Imo let them rot there, . . . . .

bigpink wrote: »

Let them rot yes . . . . . .

That’s the second time you have incited that remark!

As an adult you should bear in mind that you are talking about primary school children here.

Their input was a substantial part of that article.

Sid_Justice wrote: »

yeah , obviously I am the only one talking about the actual topic of the thread...

Actually you are not.

The thread is about “The view from inside: a day on the halting site” and to be honest my alarm bells ring every time, when I read words like DNA, genetics, inbreeding in a racial context, it sounds more like national-socialist jargon.

Kess73

Sid_Justice wrote: »

yeah , obviously I am the only one talking about the actual topic of the thread...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You quote my posts and then tell me what I'm talking about...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I have tried to be polite with you, but you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about something.

I quoted your posts in order to reply to you, but if you want to see something else in it that is not there, then so be it. I cannot do anymore than to be polite to you, but if you want to reply like a child over and over, then I won't bother replying a guy who cannot even figure out that what he is talking about is actually different to both the thread title and the article that prompted the OP to start the thread.

So I guess you are the one who made an "erroneous assumption" as to what the thread topic was.:)

Benny Lava

Is that Willie Casey's family?

Sid_Justice

Kess73 wrote: »

I have tried to be polite with you, but you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about something.

I quoted your posts in order to reply to you, but if you want to see something else in it that is not there, then so be it. I cannot do anymore than to be polite to you, but if you want to reply like a child over and over, then I won't bother replying a guy who cannot even figure out that what he is talking about is actually different to both the thread title and the article that prompted the OP to start the thread.

So I guess you are the one who made an "erroneous assumption" as to what the thread topic was.:)

The thread is about what ever is written in the first post. The first post references traveller ethnicity. I wrote about traveller ethnicity, a poster queried my opinion, you contradicted me based on a poor understanding of genetics and then you call me childish. You don't need to be polite you just need to argue the point and not attack the poster. You posted incorrect things and I tried to correct them. I don't see what your childish acquisition is about, I'm only correcting you cause you're wrong.

I didn't make an erroneous assumption, you can trace the line of my discussion from the first post through at least 10 posts to this point. You can hardly accuse me of being off-topic when I'm discussing the central theme of the thread. You're not a moderator here, I suggest you keep your moderating to your own forum.

Mc Love

Wasnt that halting site refurbished lately (as in the last year or so?)

Kess73

Mc Love wrote: »

Wasnt that halting site refurbished lately (as in the last year or so?)

It was done up possibly two years ago. Then again in such an enclosed area it would only take one or two dominant familiy units to be destructive/messy to make the place a dump for the rest of the people living there.

skyguy19

sure wasnt young Casey (with the bowl haircut) collecting waste in the white pick up van and dumping it there, wsnt there a photo of the waste from the hotel in the Limerick leader a few yeas ago, theres about 6 horses there too I thought they were illegal.

CiaranMT

Did you learn nothing from the UL forum, Sid?

Insect Overlord

Mod Note: Lads, I've already posted one warning about not making this debate personal. I don't want to have to post a third one.

GavMan

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Their high prevalence is caused by inbreeding.

.

Yes it does.



irish parents who didn't mix with other irish people



yes it is



Perhaps you don't understand the difference between ethnicity, nationality and citizenship. Perhaps you might look them up in a dictionary.



so nothing to do with ethnicity at all

So by this logic, anyone who is born from an inbred relationship is a whole new ethnicity.

So if 2 asians inbreed, then the child is a different ethnicity to the parents??

Suspect logic me thinks

Sid_Justice

No if a population of asians were inbreeding for generations they could be considered gentically distinct. If they adapted a new culture, language and way of life, they could be considered ethnically distinct. suspect reading me thinks.

A Country Voice

PseudoFamous wrote: »

IIRC, traveller women aren't allowed to have a job other than housekeeping, according to their culture, so I assume she did not have a job in 2006.

Thats one hell of an excuse for not gettin off your ar*e and getting a job when the country had thousands of people coming here from other countries at the time to work, and there were jobs to be had everywhere.
My attitude is this.
If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to live on somone elses land in a caravan and pulled in I wouldnt be there long because the cops would have me shifted fairly quickly and rightly so.
Why do we have to pay for people to have water and electricity at sites that they obviously don't give a shi*e about. Let them go on the housing list and get a job and rent a flat like everyone else until they can afford a deposit and can get a mortgage and buy a house like everyone else.
If they don't want to live in a house or flat, let them buy their own land, and subject to planning permission, develop the site in whatever way they want at their own expense.
I'm fed up of paying for these so-called minorities.
Maybe I'll start a new religion/culture and part of it will be that it will be against my religion/culture to pay road tax?:D
ACV

bobbysands81

flutered wrote: »

a line from the story the irish traveller movement was founded in 1990 it has a network of more than 80 different organisations and individuals ?????. in other words a quango, has any one a rough estimate on how much the country is spending on these people.

This is a question that really needs to be asked... and answered.

Ridiculous money is spent on Trevellers on housing alone, Irish society cannot afford it anymore.

What % of Travellers are employed? Probably a very small amount and prejudice would be a massive reason why folk won't take them on.

What % of Travellers file annual tax returns? Close to 0% I'd say.

Travellers need to start contributing to society because at the moment they don't.

bobbysands81

bigpink wrote: »

Ok can i claim traveller status?

Amazingly yes you can and I can't believe that no "settled" person has yet in order to get preferential treatment.

Cossax

CiaranMT wrote: »

Did you learn nothing from the UL forum, Sid?

Classy stuff.

Sid_Justice wrote: »

No if a population of asians were inbreeding for generations they could be considered gentically distinct. If they adapted a new culture, language and way of life, they could be considered ethnically distinct. suspect reading me thinks.

Bingo. Travellers qualify as an ethnic minority by any definition of the phrase.

celticcrash

Bingo. Travellers qualify as an ethnic minority by any definition of the phrase.

Can you claim be be Irish and than claim to be an ethnic minority in Ireland?
Sounds a bit Irish to me.

Insect Overlord

celticcrash wrote: »

Bingo. Travellers qualify as an ethnic minority by any definition of the phrase.

Can you claim be be Irish and than claim to be an ethnic minority in Ireland?
Sounds a bit Irish to me.

More epic logic failure.

You can be second generation Chinese, Indian, African, Polish or Australian and still be in a minority in Ireland. Like American Indians, Pakistanis in Britain or Algerians in France, they belong to both worlds and both cultures.

byhookorbycrook

I don't want to live in an estate either. I also want a house with an acre for my dogs and horse. Sadly, I can't afford it,so that's that.

I don't expect someone else to pay for me to have this. Horses are part of my culture, I come from North Cork, where steeplechasing began and my dad was at school with Vincent O'Brien, so ye all need to pay more tax so I can have my "culture".;););)

Kess73

It maybe not quite the right thread for this, but the village of Bruree may well be on it's way to attracting similar media attention to Rathkeale or the halting site mentioned in the original post in this thread.


11 houses in the village have seen travellers take up residency in them, and some of those travellers or rather their actions has seen many locals not using the two streets at certain times anymore.

Whilst the actions of the travellers causing the hassle does not mean that every traveller is the same, it certainly reflects badly on the ones in Bruree at present and could potentially change the dynamics of the tiny village very quickly.

Sid_Justice

A Country Voice wrote: »

Thats one hell of an excuse for not gettin off your ar*e and getting a job when the country had thousands of people coming here from other countries at the time to work, and there were jobs to be had everywhere.
ACV

Travellers are very traditional and old-fashioned. 50 years ago the vast majority of mothers were not employed in work outside the home. The cooked and cleaned and kept households. This culture, which has become old fashioned and rare in irish society (almost all middle class people families have parents who both work) is still present in Travellers.

This thread seems to have turned into a bitch-fest about travellers, aren't there enough of those threads on boards already.

the_blackstuff

It really must be a woeful existence tho living in a site like that in this day and age. It's not something I'd like to experience. It may be hypocritical of me after saying this but I like many people about have a major issue paying for travelers when I feel they contribute nothing to us as a country. Where have all their handcrafts from years gone by disappeared to? I've often been told by older people about the quality of their work with metals making such things as buckets, tanks, tub..... right it can be said that these things can be got in plastic and such now cheap but there is still a market for it. I've seen first hand what happens to most of the houses they get. They are stripped out and the contents sold. The council then refit out the house again at our expense. I know 1 builder refitted kitchen, bathroom and complete heating system 3 times into the same house with the same tenants in it.

As far as I'm concerned they contribute sweet fa to our society and I have enough to pay for with out putting them in a nice cottage out the country.

Brennans Row

Kess73 wrote: »

I find myself both agreeing with you and strongly disagreeing with you.

Mainly because I see Travellers simply as people, and as people they are made up of the same types as any other group in society. There are good ones, bad ones, happy one, contrary ones and so on.

When it comes to Travellers in Limerick with the Casey surname, I can think of examples that I personally know that I would regard as top notch people, and I can think of a few whose actions have me regarding them as vile excuses for people.

As with a lot of topics that attract heated debate, I think the subject of travellers too often attracts extremes of opinion, and the middle ground (where the truth often lies) tends to be ignored and not explored.

Although this article is over two years two years old, it does show the Limerick Caseys in a more positive light.

This Limerick Life - Boxer Willie Casey

Published on Thursday 30 July 2009 (Limerick Leader)

Boxer Willie 'Big Bang' Casey, 27, is a father of four, and one of 22 siblings who grew up in Clonlong halting site in Southill. A qualified boxing coach, he began boxing in Our Lady of Lourdes boxing club and Southill boxing club at 12. He has fought in 12 international amateur matches, and he knocked out Calosa Caolho de Jesus from Brazil his first pro-fight last October. He's now preparing to get back into the ring

I was the first person in my family to do the Junior Certificate. I left in fifth year to work part-time, but after that some of my brothers and sisters went on to do with Leaving Certificate and some have gone to college. I'd like to think I set the mark.

Boxing was always in my heart. I love it, but I was also big into hurling, football, soccer, rugby and athletics. I set the mark that I wanted to win the All-Ireland championship. I didn't do great in the first year or two but the more effort I put into my training, the more success I was getting.

I love the one-to-one competitiveness of boxing. There's no one depending on you, and you're not depending on anyone. It's all down to yourself.

It feels great when you win a fight, especially if you've lost the last one. Every time you win you get more confident that you're going to beat the next fella. Every time I get into the ring, I do my best.

Growing up, I loved Ricky Hatton's style of boxing. He had a really exciting style. And then I followed Wayne McCullough around for a while, going to see him box. Of course, I like Mike Tyson. He's a big fella, but I'd fight him if I had to. I'd fight any man.

My wife Mary got pregnant at 16, so I settled down at a young age. She supported me all the way with boxing. I learnt welding and we had three more kids. I'd like to see my kids just sticking at something. Whatever makes them happy.

My advice to any teenager is to keep it up. Never give up. You're not going to make anything of yourself if you keep packing it in.
I'm a Traveller and nothing else. From the bottom of my heart, I wouldn't change it for the world. I'm proud of who I am. If I got a chance to live anywhere in the country, I'd live in Southill.

I'd change nothing from my past. It made me who I am. Growing up in Clonlong we did typical things as teenagers, experimental things, but we knew our limits. You can still get out of things; you can still make something of yourself. I went to outreach clubs, and homework clubs in the Galvone Industrial Estate. They're a great help for teenagers.

The only good thing that happened to me this year was the birth of my daughter, Ellie-May. She's five months and she's my princess. I had the death of my brother and uncle, and then I parted with my trainer just before I was due to fight in Castlebar. The contract broke down, and I never got to fight. But the birth of my daughter blocked it all out.

Every now and again I'll eat chipper food. I love my food and I don't eat bad food, but I do like a smokey bacon burger from Supermac's as a treat. Mostly it's bacon, cabbage and turnip, and roast beef on a Sunday.

The worst thing you can do is throw in the towel. But that's not going to happen to me now. If I didn't start boxing again I'd look back at 35 or 40 and regret it, and I'm not a fella for regretting things. My new nickname was given to me by a man in Cork; before it was Razor Casey. I'm delighted with it, but now I have to live up to it.

Interview: Anne Sheridan

ABEasy

Sid_Justice wrote: »

The cooked and cleaned and kept households. This culture, which has become old fashioned and rare in irish society (almost all middle class people families have parents who both work) is still present in Travellers.

The reason this tradition has become rare in Irish society is because those people you refer to (yes those who contribute positively to Irish society) cannot afford the luxury of having a 1 income family! These people subsidise the chosen lifestyles of travellers and the like who choose not to work or contribute to Irish society. Minority or not their 'give me, give me, give me' attitude stinks and shows their contempt for the hard working, tax paying sector of our society. This needs to change for the good of society.

Kess73

Brennans Row wrote: »

Although this article is over two years two years old, it does show the Limerick Caseys in a more positive light.

I know Willie for a good number of years now through boxing circles, and have nothing but good to say about the guy. He is the exact same guy know in terms of being a good person as he was when he stepped into the ring as a raw amatuer.

I had to defend his name on here last year I think because a few were tarring and feathering him due to him sharing the same surname (and being related to) as a number of people who have commited some vile crimes in Limerick.

Willie is a good man, and for my money a good role model for kids of all backgrounds as he is a great example of what hard work and dedication can do.

Huxley10

"The propagandist's purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human."

- Aldous Huxley, The Olive Tree (1936)

This thread make me nauseous. How many of you actually talk to members of the travelling community day-to-day? You state that they don't contribute to society, and thus imply that every settled person does contribute? That's an interesting view.

Take a step back and look at the social history of this country. The travelling community biggest obstacle to improving their lot is the education deficit (as is any communities), the previous generation have bad memories of the state's previous attempt to educate them where illiterate children aged twelve were thrown in to classrooms and told to learn. How do you think that ended?

osarusan

Huxley10 wrote: »

You state that they don't contribute to society, and thus imply that every settled person does contribute? That's an interesting view.

This is a logical fallacy. To argue that Travellers do not contribute to society does not imply that every settled person does.

bigpink

Kess73 wrote: »

It maybe not quite the right thread for this, but the village of Bruree may well be on it's way to attracting similar media attention to Rathkeale or the halting site mentioned in the original post in this thread.


11 houses in the village have seen travellers take up residency in them, and some of those travellers or rather their actions has seen many locals not using the two streets at certain times anymore.

Whilst the actions of the travellers causing the hassle does not mean that every traveller is the same, it certainly reflects badly on the ones in Bruree at present and could potentially change the dynamics of the tiny village very quickly.

I can confirm that a well known Limerick traveller crime family have moved out there.They have bought the house it would be interesting to see how that was paid for

11 i wasnt aware of that many,thats Bruree ruined:mad:

Kess73

bigpink wrote: »

I can confirm that a well known Limerick traveller crime family have moved out there.They have bought the house it would be interesting to see how that was paid for

11 i wasnt aware of that many,thats Bruree ruined:mad:

A lot of what has moved in there are not Limerick travellers. Quite a few are from the UK with Rathkeale links.

From what I have actually seen in the village as well as talking to family who still live there, the new arrivals are doing as they please, and doing their bit to give decent travellers in a bad name.