Why are 50% of maths teachers unqualifed?

coolx

Is there a conspiracy to dumb down the masses by providing rubbish teachers?

More importantly, why are these people/teachers not fired and sued for any damages? Is it any wonder the teaching in this country is so poor when you consider this number is so high, not to mention Government hiding the data about which schools house these individuals.

THIS IS FRAUD OF THE HIGHEST ORDER:mad:

EDUCATION Minister Ruairi Quinn is facing new pressure to act on the second-level maths crisis as confusion continues over the true number of unqualified maths teachers in our schools.

A survey ordered by Mr Quinn and published yesterday claimed that 30pc of secondary school maths teachers did not have a full maths teaching qualification. However, the Irish Independent has learned that just a third of the country's schools took part in the hastily assembled research by the Teaching Council, raising questions over the validity of the findings.

trad

Is that half of them or a third?

smk89

Well four thirds of statements are irrelevant without statistics to back them up

coolx

trad wrote: »

Is that half of them or a third?

The details are a bit wishy washy. I will agree with you on that.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/pressure-mounting-on-quinn-over-maths-crisis-2874315.html

joshrogan

what is that symbol after the number five o?

Don't know but I'd guess they could spell unqualified correctly.

ejmaztec

2 grapes + 3 oranges = 1 melon.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The irony of someone moaning about poor maths and failing to get a percentage statistic correct....

Previous research had indicated almost half of maths teachers were not fully qualified.

Need to keep up to date there OP

thecornflake

I'm with you OP, every year eight out of five people fail maths in the leaving cert.

Ave Sodalis

One thing for certain is that the amount of unqualified teachers is ridiculous! I spend a huge amount of my time at the start of 4th year correcting my math teacher, until she moved me into a different class...

Ghandee

50% is more than half of them ffs :eek:

jester77

coolx wrote: »

Is there a conspiracy to dumb down the masses by providing rubbish teachers?

More importantly, why are these people/teachers not fired and sued for any damages? Is it any wonder the teaching in this country is so poor when you consider this number is so high, not to mention Government hiding the data about which schools house these individuals.

THIS IS FRAUD OF THE HIGHEST ORDER:mad:

because the other 50% are "trying" to run to run the country

mconigol

They're not qualified as teachers. Doesn't mean they can't teach maths.

Hell, a lot of them are probably the same people parents pay to give grinds to their kids.

biko

Maybe they couldn't get any real teachers because everyone is ****e at maths these days?

coolx

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The irony of someone moaning about poor maths and failing to get a percentage statistic correct....

You are wrong. Unless you can provide the report findings and verify the contents directly.

Mr.Crinklewood

Because 6/10 failed their exams ?

coolx

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Because 6/10 failed their exams ?

Way too high.

hooradiation

coolx wrote: »

You are wrong. Unless you can provide the report findings and verify the contents directly, you can't touch me. There isn't a "correct" statistic yet. No until every last teacher is vetted.

If there isn't a correct statistic then where in the name of jegus did you pull 50% from?

Get out.

whiteandlight

Because the principals have them timetabled to teach it. It's that simple really. But if the principals insisted that all their maths teachers were qualified then they would run into problems with permanent staff who cannot be let go. There's also a perception that 'ah sure it's ordinary level' so anyone(usually business/science) can teach them when in reality a well qualified teacher is crucial for those weaker students

nisior

Well mine was horrendous as I said on a forum last night. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75699304&postcount=109

We complained and complained, but somehow she kept her job and she's still in that sh!thole. I wonder how she manages it? Ahhh, the principal is her Dad

Gurgle

mconigol wrote: »

They're not qualified as teachers. Doesn't mean they can't teach maths.

Unfortunately its the other way around, they're qualified to teach but not to teach maths.

That's what TUI / INTO have done for education.

The people who are qualified to teach maths (or would be if they took the HDip) are earning much more in the private sector.

The Department can't offer more money to get real maths teachers because the unions insist all teachers must be on the same pay scale regardless what their qualification is worth in the private sector.

Result: PE teachers giving maths classes.

token56

The problem here isn't even the amount that are qualified/unqualified, its how maths is taught in general. Maths is taught primarily as a set of rules and instructions which you simply learn off and follow to complete a question. The understanding and application is completely lost in translation. I know the new maths course is supposed to address this but from what I can see its a half hearted attempt. Besides the curriculum teachers needed to be trained to teach differently, how to teach the understanding and application of maths in a way that students can relate to. An excellent example of this is the project based learning concept. This is something which is going to brought into third level more and more, and its something that could really help maths here. Of course the rules etc in maths are very important but the understanding and application behind the rules is equally important and needs to be taught in parallel.

I've given quiet a few grinds in maths over the past couple of years and one of the biggest problems is simply understanding what's being asked and the terms being used. Once students understand this the majority can actually do the maths in the questions without any more help. The majority tell me that not much time is given to explaining the terms during class which I'd well believe from my time in school. But this just shows at the most basic level how little importance is given to understanding in maths.

ejmaztec

I know one completely sh1te secondary maths teacher, who according to the statistics for the school, is a brilliant teacher, with many of his students getting good grades. What the statistics don't show is that most of his students have to go to evening grind-schools because the teacher is so feckin bad.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

coolx wrote: »

You are wrong. Unless you can provide the report findings and verify the contents directly.

I certainly can, Kent.

Your title reads 50%, the quote you add states 30%.

50% =/= 30%.

Done.

--Kaiser--

Just being qualified doesn't automatically make you any good at teaching maths.
And vice versa.
My Secondary school maths teacher was fully qualified...but was an appalling excuse for a teacher, you either understood the equation he put up (with little in the way of explanation on his part) or you should go 'back to pass'

byhookorbycrook

Gurgle wrote: »

Unfortunately its the other way around, they're qualified to teach but not to teach maths.

That's what TUI / INTO have done for education.

The people who are qualified to teach maths (or would be if they took the HDip) are earning much more in the private sector.

.

INTO are primary.

coolx

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I certainly can, Kent.

Your title reads 50%, the quote you add states 30%.

50% =/= 30%.

Done.

The point I was trying to get at though is that neither of those figures are likely to be correct without first hand verification, therefore your assertion that I made a mistake is incorrect. These figures are not very trustworthy without a primary source. You don't even know if the figures you quoted are reliable! That is my point.

Ah shure the indo mentioned it, so it must be correct:rolleyes:

Jake Rugby Walrus666

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

50% =/= 30%.

Depends.
50% of 87 is equal to 30 % of 145.

bluto63

I was expecting a joke OP you owe me

coolx

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Just being qualified doesn't automatically make you any good at teaching maths.
And vice versa.
My Secondary school maths teacher was fully qualified...but was an appalling excuse for a teacher, you either understood the equation he put up (with little in the way of explanation on his part) or you should go 'back to pass'

Even if the teacher is good, if they lack credentials they should be fired in an instant. Do you think private sector or high level clearance Government positions would employ people who aren't qualified?

It is simply Fraud. Misrepresentation of fact. These people should be sacked and forced to pay back a large % of the money earned through working. Unqualified Engineer building a bridge - yeah that would fly.

--Kaiser--

coolx wrote: »

Even if the teacher is good, if they lack credentials they should be fired in an instant. Do you think private sector or high level clearance Government positions would employ people who aren't qualified?

It is simply Fraud. Misrepresentation of fact. These people should be sacked and forced to pay back a large % of the money earned through working. Unqualified Engineer building a bridge - yeah that would fly.

I have worked in several private sector companies (successful ones) that hired people unqualified for the position. If you think that only happens in the public sector then you need to pull your head out of your ass

Morag

Cos people who are really good at maths and get a good maths degree get real jobs and those who are crap end up doing the hdip and even then there are not enough of them so the school can draft in any teacher who did maths themsevles for the LC to teach it.

coolx

The Unions are largely to blame here. Remove their ability to retain unqualified morons and watch the maths results rise exponentially.

Lord, if only O' Leary could direct his ruthless efficiency towards these clowns. I don't want children applying for jobs without the ability to count.

Anybody who is unqualifed should be forced to get qualified very fast, otherwise it's out the door with you. Do qualifications not apply to the public sector

Gurgle

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

INTO are primary.

Did I mean ASTI?
(I'm not a teacher)

byhookorbycrook

coolx wrote: »

The Unions are largely to blame here. Remove their ability to retain unqualified morons and watch the maths results rise exponentially.

The teaching council are in charge of checking qualifications. All teachers have to pay them a fee each year and you will not be issued with a teaching no. until you have satisfied their conditions.

Gurgle

Sharrow wrote: »

Cos people who are really good at maths and get a good maths degree get real jobs and those who are crap end up doing the hdip and even then there are not enough of them so the school can draft in any teacher who did maths themsevles for the LC to teach it.

Very few people study pure maths in college, the majority of people with appropriate degrees for teaching maths are qualified in science, engineering, IT, accountancy etc
i.e. professional qualifications that can get well paid work in the real world

coolx

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The teaching council are in charge of checking qualifications. All teachers have to pay them a fee each year and you will not be issued with a teaching no. until you have satisfied their conditions.

If that is really the case, why are unqualified maths teachers cited in that article No doubt this council represents the height of efficiency. Most of those positions could probably be cut down with the use of automation.

Is it any wonder the public sector is in such a mess when we hire people who can simply "forget" to count? Ah shure, the 3.6 billion. Who needs to worry about that.

This country fills me with rage at times. We deserve to be the laughing stock of europe if we allow standards to decline in such a manner. Nobody gives a toss.

Gurgle

coolx wrote: »

why are unqualified maths teachers cited in that article

Because there are no qualified maths teachers available.

coolx

Gurgle wrote: »

Because there are no qualified maths teachers available.

So why are unqualifed maths teachers allowed to teach children? Maybe we should allow serial killers to deliver babies while we are at it:rolleyes:

hooradiation

coolx wrote: »

So why are unqualifed maths teachers allowed to teach children? Maybe we should allow serial killers to deliver babies while we are at it:rolleyes:

We let hysterical people post on the internet, so i guess it'd be fair...

coolx

hooradiation wrote: »

We let hysterical people post on the internet, so i guess it'd be fair...

hysterical and correct people on the internet aren't likely to be working in government positions though. The public has a right to know how the public sector operates. It's called a republic for a reason. Though in practice, crony capitalism seems to be the meal of the day.

Chuck Stone

I'm mathematically retarded. I have no idea if it was because of my early teachers or whether I'm not wired for maths.

Yet I'm quite good at poker percentages, playing against ranges, estimating probability, remembering numbers and mental arithmetic.

Go figure (no calculators allowed)

Does anyone remember those little books with loads of hieroglyphics written in them that you brought to a maths exam? It may as well have been Chinese to me.

coolx

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yet I'm quite good at poker percentages, playing against ranges, estimating probability, remembering numbers and mental arithmetic.

If you can do all this, well, you aren't mathematically retarded. Could it simply be a situation where you don't see any use for that gibberish, hence you "switch off" when faced by it? If it isn't explained properly, how to you expect to understand it? Try reading chinese without a teacher!

You probably aren't as "bad" as you think. Seriously.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

coolx wrote: »

The point I was trying to get at though is that neither of those figures are likely to be correct without first hand verification, therefore your assertion that I made a mistake is incorrect. These figures are not very trustworthy without a primary source. You don't even know if the figures you quoted are reliable! That is my point.

Ah shure the indo mentioned it, so it must be correct:rolleyes:

You said 50%, you now accept that 50% is unlikley to be correct. That looks like a mistake to me. Possibly not a mathematical one, but it sure looked like one at the start.

You could take some of this report with a grain of salt, some teachers, their primary qualification might qualify them to teach Physics and applied Maths but not Maths once they have their H Dip done. That teacher wouldn't be qualified to teach maths but in reality they would more than likely be well able to.

On the face of it the results sound bad but they may not be so really.

hooradiation

coolx wrote: »

hysterical and correct people on the internet aren't likely to be working in government positions though.

You've not been correct yet.

coolx

We need Engineers teaching maths, not Art/biology/chemistry/other teachers.

coolx

coolx wrote: »

We need Engineers teaching maths, not Art/biology/chemistry/other teachers.

What sort of engineers? Civil? Mechanical? Construction? Manufacturing Technology? Lots of folk wandering around with a B Eng with woeful enough levels of Maths.

Haelium

coolx wrote: »

We need Engineers teaching maths, not Art/biology/chemistry/other teachers.

We need good maths teachers teaching maths. Engineers might be good at maths, but teaching is a whole other skill all together.

token56

RoverJames wrote: »

What sort of engineers? Civil? Mechanical? Construction? Manufacturing Technology? Lots of folk wandering around with a B Eng with woeful enough levels of Maths.

Indeed, speaking as someone with a BEng I agree, the level of maths among some graduates can be truly awful. The problem is, as was outlined earlier, the engineers or any other professional with the necessary maths skills that you'd want teaching maths wont want to because the alternatives jobs they can get will be much more desirable in general.