I propose a voluntary 10% tax - to be paid by those who actually wish to help out

JaneyMacker

I propose a voluntary 10% tax - to be paid by those who actually wish to help out with the country.

And if you dont volunteer to pay it then you can STFU banging on that everyone else should pay more.

Im sick to death of listening to every pub or internet expert banging on about how this or that person should pay more tax than them.

The high earning should pay more tax - read those who earn more than me should pay more.
Cut the dole - read im not on the dole.
Cut childrens allowance - read i have no children.
Higher property taxes - read i dont own property
Cut rent relief - read i dont get rent relief.
Increase motor tax, tolls, etc - read I dont have a car
Cut the old age pension - read I am not old
cut public sector pay - read I am private sector

The fact is that everyone has a reason to dislike being taxed. Nobody wants to be paying more than anyone else.

The person on €25k who pays little or no tax looks at the person who earns 100k and says they should pay more tax. Laughable. They already pay more tax.

Its like someone screaming at a football manager that he should have done this or that, but they have never been a manager themselves. Its exactly the same thing.

Yet none of us are economists or have actually any experience in running a country or a national budget. And we are experts arent we.

So if you really want to help, pay a voluntary 10% tax on your income, be it dole, rent allowance, childrens alowance, high salary, low salary, millionaires salary. If you dont pay it, stop asking for everyone else to pay more than you.

yep because these guys need all our help

http://www.herald.ie/news/this-man-owes-euro28bn-but-gets-euro200k-a-year-to-live-here-2946689.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-may-allow-mcnamara-to-keep-euro500000-from-sale-of-home-2946958.html

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=42121


anyone who pays a cent more than they have to should be put down
we need spending cuts not more tax

hatrickpatrick

OP, can we choose what that tax goes to?
As in, can I ensure that my 10% will go to hospitals, schools, roads, SW etc and not to paying the wages of corrupt bankers and bondholders?

JaneyMacker

Deleted User wrote: »

yep because these guys need all our help

http://www.herald.ie/news/this-man-owes-euro28bn-but-gets-euro200k-a-year-to-live-here-2946689.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-may-allow-mcnamara-to-keep-euro500000-from-sale-of-home-2946958.html

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=42121


anyone who pays a cent more than they have to should be put down
we need spending cuts not more tax

Maybe we should have a referendum.
Increase taxes on all income, even the dole, for anyone earning less than €50k by 10%, but with a 25% increase for those earning over €50k.

more than 50% of people earn less than 50k - this should be easy to carry
Unless it is true that people only want others to pay more, but not themselves.

hatrickpatrick

JaneyMacker wrote: »

Maybe we should have a referendum.
Increase taxes on all income, even the dole, for anyone earning less than €50k by 10%, but with a 25% increase for those earning over €50k.

more than 50% of people earn less than 50k - this should be easy to carry
Unless it is true that people only want others to pay more, but not themselves.

Could we also have a much simpler referendum, which is that we as a nation stop repaying people who f*cked up of their own free will just because they're personal friends of ministers?

JaneyMacker

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

OP, can we choose what that tax goes to?
As in, can I ensure that my 10% will go to hospitals, schools, roads, SW etc and not to paying the wages of corrupt bankers and bondholders?

Of course you can. Its voluntary, so you would have complete control over where it ended up. Roads, hospitals, education, tourism, charities.
I know its never going to happen, but im just making the point that everyone is happy for someone else to take a higher burden, but if they could choose to take on a higher burden themselves they would not.

Its always a thinly veiled - Make the other guy pay more. Dont make me pay more.

JaneyMacker

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Could we also have a much simpler referendum, which is that we as a nation stop repaying people who f*cked up of their own free will just because they're personal friends of ministers?

Valid referendum, but off the point.

woodoo

Deleted User wrote: »

yep because these guys need all our help

http://www.herald.ie/news/this-man-owes-euro28bn-but-gets-euro200k-a-year-to-live-here-2946689.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nama-may-allow-mcnamara-to-keep-euro500000-from-sale-of-home-2946958.html

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=42121


anyone who pays a cent more than they have to should be put down
we need spending cuts not more tax

We probably should be on the street reeking havoc. The government should be told to put a stop to that sort of nonsense (as in the post quoted above). Before they go after the ordinary person.

FreudianSlippers

JaneyMacker wrote: »

Maybe we should have a referendum.
Increase taxes on all income, even the dole, for anyone earning less than €50k by 10%, but with a 25% increase for those earning over €50k.

more than 50% of people earn less than 50k - this should be easy to carry
Unless it is true that people only want others to pay more, but not themselves.

I would move, immediately.

JaneyMacker

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I would move, immediately.

me too

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

JaneyMacker

I think its becoming clear what is going to happen if you tax the people you perceive to be well off. You wont be getting their taxes for long.

woodoo

How a bout a Passport Levy. They could have it based on your wealth. About €100 for the average citizen, about €100,000 for Bono and even higher for the billionaires.

You don't pay... eff off to Switzerland and don't come back.

dev100

Iceland sounds good

AnamGlas

Voluntary: "Sure if I had the money I'd pay it"... and all the usual bollocks

sh1tstirrer

Op you don't like people complaining and yet you started a thread to complain about complainers :rolleyes:

JaneyMacker

woodoo wrote: »

How a bout a Passport Levy. They could have it based on your wealth. About €100 for the average citizen, about €100,000 for Bono and even higher for the billionaires.

You don't pay... eff off to Switzerland and don't come back.

But sure we would lose all our Irish stars and rich people. They would all become citizens of some Caribbean island.

Who wants to be Irish if it costs them money?

JaneyMacker

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Op you don't like people complaining and yet you started a thread to complain about complainers :rolleyes:

No, I started a thread to complain about the people who expect others to take on more taxes than they are prepared to take on themselves.

Lockstep

Not a fan of voluntary taxes at all. The government isn't charity and shouldn't be treated as such.
I'm more than willing to pay additional taxes on my income (I currently only pay the USC) but it'd need to apply to everyone, not just those few who voluntarily pay out as it leads to a free rider problem.

If you want to use your income to help out others voluntarily, give it to a good charity.

Sleepy

In a sense, I agree with all of your suggestions:

The high earning should pay more tax - read those who earn more than me should pay more.
I'd believe that those managing to minimise their tax bills to single digit effective rates should be blocked from doing so via the removal of many of the loopholes and legitimate tax avoidance measures that are currently available to them. Non-residents whose main business interests and family life are clearly in this country are a particular bug-bear of mine. While it's fair that I pay a higher percentage of my income in tax than someone on
half my salary, someone on ten times my income shouldn't be able to manage to pay a lower percentage than me.

Cut the dole - read im not on the dole.
Were I to lose my current job, I'd need an job offer of a minimum of 44k for it to be worth my while working. That's insane. While it would be lovely to maintain some of Europe's highest welfare levels, we simply can't afford it.

Cut childrens allowance - read i have no children.
Fairest option is to make it taxable income or to scrap it and increase the dependent child welfare / payment by a similar level. (yes, this would affect me).

Higher property taxes - read i dont own property
The necessity for a property tax is an unavoidable reality if we want to avoid another property bubble and move away from transaction-based taxes. No, this doesn't currently affect me, but I'm sure it will do at some point.

Cut rent relief - read i dont get rent relief.
One that would certainly hurt me but I'd have no problem with it once a move was made to remove the artificial floor that rent allowance creates in the Irish residential rental market, the NAMA properties are released for sale and the government stops trying to distort the Irish property and rental markets.

Increase motor tax, tolls, etc - read I dont have a car
Scrap motor tax entirely, make it a pay per usage tax by increasing duty on petrol / diesel. Fairer, greener and could be done in a way which would increase overall revenues (despite the loss of duty in border counties and obvious necessity to allow a claimback for haulage companies etc.).

Cut the old age pension - read I am not old
Well, the rest of us have already taken cuts, is it not ageist to suggest only the elderly should be exempt from the pain? Again, it'd be lovely to ensure everyone over 60 could swan off to their own private Greek Island regardless of how well they've provided for their own future but we can't afford the current non-contributory pension, the ridiculously index-linked public sector pensions (particularly to those under 65) or to be paying multiple pensions to ex-politicians.

cut public sector pay - read I am private sector
The public sector pay bill needs to be reduced. We can't afford a public sector as expensive as the one we have. My preference as a private sector tax-payer is for lower public sector pay to be the preference over job-cuts (aside from the cases where the position is actually redundant or the employee's performance renders them as such in which case I'd be firing and paying no more than statutory).

The unions have screwed things for their members though: their entire basis for existence in modern Ireland (collective bargaining) ensures the weakest/laziest performers get paid the same as those who could legitimately claim they're worth far more than their current salaries.

woodoo

Sleepy wrote: »

The high earning should pay more tax - read those who earn more than me should pay more.
I'd believe that those managing to minimise their tax bills to single digit effective rates should be blocked from doing so via the removal of many of the loopholes and legitimate tax avoidance measures that are currently available to them. Non-residents whose main business interests and family life are clearly in this country are a particular bug-bear of mine. While it's fair that I pay a higher percentage of my income in tax than someone on
half my salary, someone on ten times my income shouldn't be able to manage to pay a lower percentage than me.

Perhaps if we began to see them as social pariahs. But we would need the media for that campaign to work. But guess who owns the media by and large. The very same people who we want to pay a fairer share of tax in the country they call home.

woodoo

woodoo wrote: »

How a bout a Passport Levy. They could have it based on your wealth. About €100 for the average citizen, about €100,000 for Bono and even higher for the billionaires.

You don't pay... eff off to Switzerland and don't come back.

already costs to get a passport plus airport charges

how would the Irish govt know my wealth in Australia to base the charge/tax on ? And if they could I wouldnt get another Irish passport then and remember Irish people have full free movement across Europe and any european passport holder can move and legally work in Ireland.

pacquiao

JaneyMacker wrote: »

I propose a voluntary 10% tax - to be paid by those who actually wish to help out with the country.

And if you dont volunteer to pay it then you can STFU banging on that everyone else should pay more.

Im sick to death of listening to every pub or internet expert banging on about how this or that person should pay more tax than them.

The high earning should pay more tax - read those who earn more than me should pay more.
Cut the dole - read im not on the dole.
Cut childrens allowance - read i have no children.
Higher property taxes - read i dont own property
Cut rent relief - read i dont get rent relief.
Increase motor tax, tolls, etc - read I dont have a car
Cut the old age pension - read I am not old
cut public sector pay - read I am private sector

The fact is that everyone has a reason to dislike being taxed. Nobody wants to be paying more than anyone else.

The person on €25k who pays little or no tax looks at the person who earns 100k and says they should pay more tax. Laughable. They already pay more tax.

Its like someone screaming at a football manager that he should have done this or that, but they have never been a manager themselves. Its exactly the same thing.

Yet none of us are economists or have actually any experience in running a country or a national budget. And we are experts arent we.

So if you really want to help, pay a voluntary 10% tax on your income, be it dole, rent allowance, childrens alowance, high salary, low salary, millionaires salary. If you dont pay it, stop asking for everyone else to pay more than you.

thebman

Voluntary cuts don't work. See judges who took voluntary cut who will now probably have their pay cut again by the government.

The end result is this, if you give yourself a voluntary cut, they will still come for you at some point in the next few years so your better off not doing it now since they'll come for you anyway.

antoobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

how would the Irish govt know my wealth in Australia to base the charge/tax on ?

US citizens that have dual citizenship have to file tax returns with the IRS. There's no reason why we couldn't have a dual tax agreement with Australia etc as well

Bannasidhe

antoobrien wrote: »

US citizens that have dual citizenship have to file tax returns with the IRS. There's no reason why we couldn't have a dual tax agreement with Australia etc as well

I would suggest that all holders of Irish passports living outside the State be required to file a tax return and pay a small percentage of income tax (say 5%). In return they should also have the right to vote in referenda, plebiscites, and presidential elections. GE's would be more difficult due to the constituency system.
If one doesn't want to pay - one has the option of renouncing Irish citizenship and becoming a naturalised citizen of the State one does pay tax in.
So Marty McGuinness would finally get to pay tax to the State he sought to become President of and Dana could decide once and for all if she is an Irish citizen or if she renounced it.

Tayla

Hmmmm, well perhaps if the money was actually going to 'help out' then people would be all for it.

I wouldn't consider adding an extra 10% tax onto anyone just so we can pay back unsecured bondholders to be actually helping out.

skafish

I put this post up on another thread a while age. Think it is equally valid here:):

AT the risk of repeating myself repeating myself, I think the dole shold be cut.


BUT the high rollers in our society need to contribute more as well. The scandal of TDs claiming for dry cleaning would be agood place to start.

95% income tax on any state pension collected before age 65.

No double state pay (ie you get either a state pension, or a state job, not both)

Max of one state pension, or if this cant be achieved because of contracts etc, tax 2nd and further pensions at apenal rate (95% sounds about right here also)

Any other suggestions out there?

Count Dooku

woodoo wrote: »

How a bout a Passport Levy. They could have it based on your wealth. About €100 for the average citizen, about €100,000 for Bono and even higher for the billionaires.

You don't pay... eff off to Switzerland and don't come back.

Do you want to see Ireland as septic tank for those who never pay taxes, only consumes them?

si_guru

Cut dole... or at least have a time based reducing scale as in Germany. So that way the recently redundant are helped but the career umemployed are hurt. Also this might encourage the long term unemployed to take Xmas (any) jobs etc as their sliding scale gets reset or lifted.

To evenly tax all, increase VAT and road fuel duty. To help those less well off motorists, fix pre-08 road at current level (maybe even cap it). To help reduce the burden on AGS introduce a SORN system and APNRS.

Stop child benefit payments to households with an income of more than €100K - they don't need it! Also don't pay CB to non-residents.

antoobrien

si_guru wrote: »

Also don't pay CB to non-residents.

I assume you mean that you shouldn't pay it in the case of a parent living here with the child abroad - not legal.

si_guru

antoobrien wrote: »

I assume you mean that you shouldn't pay it in the case of a parent living here with the child abroad - not legal.

Maybe not.. but a "legal" is only a current standpoint.. e.g. smoking in the workplace.

Red Alert

Any economics textbook would tell you a rational person wouldn't pay a voluntary tax to the state. I'd rather support a local business by spending the equivalent amount, or else keep my own earnings for myself!

halkar

10% tax to help out what? The banks? Politicians?
No thanks. I rather drink the money:D

RichardAnd

OP, if you want to help some people out, take the 10% of your wages, buy food and then give it to the Simon Community. It will help out far more that way than handing it over to Revenue.

Wurly

JaneyMacker wrote: »

I propose a voluntary 10% tax - to be paid by those who actually wish to help out with the country.

And if you dont volunteer to pay it then you can STFU banging on that everyone else should pay more.

Im sick to death of listening to every pub or internet expert banging on about how this or that person should pay more tax than them.

The high earning should pay more tax - read those who earn more than me should pay more.
Cut the dole - read im not on the dole.
Cut childrens allowance - read i have no children.
Higher property taxes - read i dont own property
Cut rent relief - read i dont get rent relief.
Increase motor tax, tolls, etc - read I dont have a car
Cut the old age pension - read I am not old
cut public sector pay - read I am private sector

The fact is that everyone has a reason to dislike being taxed. Nobody wants to be paying more than anyone else.

The person on €25k who pays little or no tax looks at the person who earns 100k and says they should pay more tax. Laughable. They already pay more tax.

Its like someone screaming at a football manager that he should have done this or that, but they have never been a manager themselves. Its exactly the same thing.

Yet none of us are economists or have actually any experience in running a country or a national budget. And we are experts arent we.

So if you really want to help, pay a voluntary 10% tax on your income, be it dole, rent allowance, childrens alowance, high salary, low salary, millionaires salary. If you dont pay it, stop asking for everyone else to pay more than you.

I have been posting on boards for 5 years. The above is, without doubt, the most idiotic thing I have ever read here. My good GOD!

jasonc5432

Wurly wrote: »

I have been posting on boards for 5 years. The above is, without doubt, the most idiotic thing I have ever read here. My good GOD!

Couldnt have put it better myself.

The creator of this thread clearly has no interest in finding solutions to Ireland's current economic depression. He is more interested in castigating those who search for ways out of this.

He is a perfect example of what is wrong with this country.

I second Wurly-- this thread's creator has definitely won the award for stupidest thing I've read in 2011

FreudianSlippers

si_guru wrote: »

Maybe not.. but a "legal" is only a current standpoint.. e.g. smoking in the workplace.

They get a vastly reduced rate, as do parents of Irish children living in the state whose parent lives in another Member State.
I presume you wouldn't want that cut!

JaneyMacker

So we're back to the usual tax everyone else but me arguments now already. Just as i suspected, but I thought it would take a few more pages before that started. Of course there will never be a voluntary tax.

Just pointing out that everybody I have spoken to is full of offers to tax anybody themselves. Funnily though in all of the different types of people they want to tax, they arent in those groups themselves. Sick of listening to them tbh.

One colleague today.
"Michael O'Leary should pay a lot more tax than he does"
-"How much tax does Michael O'Leary Pay?"
"I dont know, but he should pay more"
-"But shouldnt you pay more"
"I cant afford to pay anymore, so no."
-"So Michael O'Leary should subsidise your lack of a high paying career"
"Well he can afford it cant he"
-"Sigh"

Iamhere

[QUOTE=JaneyMacker;75691846
The person on €25k who pays little or no tax looks at the person who earns 100k and says they should pay more tax. Laughable. They already pay more tax.
[/QUOTE]

I earn €25k give or take and i can tell you i pay quiet a bit of tax...

antoobrien

Iamhere wrote: »

I earn €25k give or take and i can tell you i pay quiet a bit of tax...

What's quite a bit?

I earn just over €36k. After (mandatory) pension contributions I'll end up paying in the region of €4,900 paye, €1,300 prsi & €2,050 usc.

Bannasidhe

si_guru wrote: »

Cut dole... or at least have a time based reducing scale as in Germany. So that way the recently redundant are helped but the career umemployed are hurt.

.

Actually a sliding scale based on my earnings as they have in Germany would have worked very much to my personal advantage indeed but how do you define recently made redundant?

Should such a system be announced in the budget - (figures for illustration purposes only and cos it's late and this makes the maths easy) say 50% of earnings in 1st year - reduced to 40% for 2nd, 30% for 3rd, 20% for 4th, 10% for 5th then nada. Cut-off without a penny (god - I'd love that!).

How would that actually be implemented in practical terms? Say this was to apply to everyone made redundant starting in the next financial year - so if your job ends on Jan 1st it's the new 5 year system, but not if it ended on 31st Dec?

What about people who lost their job in Nov? Or 6 months ago? Do they remain within the current system?

It would be great in principle for those whose 'timing' was right and had been on comfortable or high earnings but I really can't see how such a system could be applied at this point without it being manifestly unfair to those middle/high earners who didn't get their 'timing' right. Do they get 'backdated' money? Would the payments received to date be deducted from that?

What about those who have been getting SW for 6 years? Cut them off and demand 1 years worth of SW back? Where would those get circa 10k?

What if up to losing their job 6 years ago they had earned good money for the previous 5 years - so much so that had the 'new' system been in place they would have been entitled to more?

books4sale

Voluntary tax

.....AHHHAHHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

....ok everyone, nothing to see here :cool:

FreudianSlippers

The dole ≠ redundancy payments.


It should be €188/week for your first year and decreasing to €100/week second year and then further reductions for the next 3 years before being nothing after 5 years.

For people already on the dole the timer would start 1st Jan 2012.

Bannasidhe

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The dole ≠ redundancy payments.


It should be €188/week for your first year and decreasing to €100/week second year and then further reductions for the next 3 years before being nothing after 5 years.

For people already on the dole the timer would start 1st Jan 2012.

Harsh and suicidal IMO - say that had been in place when the ghost estate of cards collapsed and the job losses started to bite and for the easy maths of it say payment was reduced by 10% a year over the 5 years (Y5= 188/ Y4 = 169.2/ Y3 = 152.3 / Y4 = 137.1/ Y5 = 123.4 ) then we would now have people living year 3 now on 152.3 while the country is also in almost negative growth, unemployment is increasing as are stealth taxes.

Were employment on the increase and the cost of living becoming appreciably lower this may be workable but there is absolutely no sign of this happening 3 years into this recession- indeed during the CT years of near full employment it would have been a serious option - but now we are facing into a potential lost decade it strikes me as utter madness TBH. If this were the sceanario I imagine any money saved would have to be used on internal security as there would be riots.

It makes more sense if we are to preserve some form of stability that a better allocation of limited resources is to pay people enough to get by from week to week rather then paying overtime to the Gardaí to quell the inevitable civil unrest? Unrest which would also discourage foreign investment and cause billions in damage (riot levy on all insurance policies?)

So what happens if the economy hasn't recovered in 5 years? A not unlikely prospect given the headless chicken leadership coming out of Europe and the complete chickens in Leinster House? 500,000 people with zero income? Or if a partial recovery has taken place - 200,000?

 People do not even have the option of emigrating to the U.S/U.K in large numbers as in previous recessions as they are in severe trouble. I doubt if Australia/ Canada could absorb all circa 500,000 on the live register (plus dependants).

Say 200,000 are still on the Live Register in 5 years (less then half those on the current live register - I also have not factored in those in education/training courses which would greatly inflate the actual number receiving income from the state)

200k people who get cut off on 1st Jan 2017 - the economy is by then beginning to slowly recover - 5 years of university/leaving cert graduates have been absorbed without inflating the unemployment figure (unlikely) but now there are 200 k people (some with dependants - wives/children ) with no income!

This would have a massive knock-on effect on the retail sector (shops closing = job losses), health services (illnesses associated with malnutrition), financial sector (mortgage defaults on a grand scale), education (seriously - how many children will be sent to school hungry - will free school meal have to be introduced? What would be the cost of that? How will parents afford text books/copies/pencils/uniforms/transport? - do we breed an uneducated underclass with no prospects)



What about loan parents - do they get cut off when the child reaches 5? 7? 10? I assume disability payments continue - but for how long?

What about pensioners? If they exceed the average life expectancy do they get cut off? I have a grand uncle in his late 90s - he retired in 1983 - by his own admission he has gotten far more out of this pensions then he ever paid in (UK MOD (RAF)/ B.A.private pension for clarity). Should George Osborne say to him 'sorry old chap - very grateful for the ol chocks away never in the field of human conflict stuff back in the day - but that was over 50 years ago and no-one expected you to live this long so we are cutting you off old man!'

The fact is SW money stays in the system - its forms part of that essential cash flow that keeps things ticking over. No-one is squirrling it away into off shore accounts or buying bank bonds with it. They are buying food, clothes, electricity, gas and yes sometimes fags and booze - the VAT goes to the State and the rest helps keep the retail sector afloat among other things.

IMHO - To suddenly halt that flow of cash in the economy in 5 years time would kill any recovery stone dead if not before as people on SW cut back on even basic spending in years 4/5 to try and have some nest egg.

Those who have lost their homes due to cut off of RA/Mortgage defaults - where do they go? Will there be 'Bertievilles' in Phoenix Park? What about the landlord who have lost their income from RA (bless them...)? Lot of empty properties suddenly appear on the market in 5 years as landlords sell and banks repossess homes. Well there goes any recovery in construction/property market.

How do we deal with the inevitable rise in crime? Build more prisons? - how many millions will that cost? Employ more guards/prison officers? Arn't we trying to cut the number of PS workers?

That is one scary scenario :eek:

goose2005

Why this obsession on taxing income? Ireland has very little tax on assets, which is surely a better way of targeting the unproductive wealthy.

Count Dooku

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Harsh and suicidal IMO - say that had been in place when the ghost estate of cards collapsed and the job losses started to bite and for the easy maths of it say payment was reduced by 10% a year over the 5 years (Y5= 188/ Y4 = 169.2/ Y3 = 152.3 / Y4 = 137.1/ Y5 = 123.4 ) then we would now have people living year 3 now on 152.3 while the country is also in almost negative growth, unemployment is increasing as are stealth taxes.

Were employment on the increase and the cost of living becoming appreciably lower this may be workable but there is absolutely no sign of this happening 3 years into this recession- indeed during the CT years of near full employment it would have been a serious option - but now we are facing into a potential lost decade it strikes me as utter madness TBH. If this were the sceanario I imagine any money saved would have to be used on internal security as there would be riots.

It makes more sense if we are to preserve some form of stability that a better allocation of limited resources is to pay people enough to get by from week to week rather then paying overtime to the Gardaí to quell the inevitable civil unrest? Unrest which would also discourage foreign investment and cause billions in damage (riot levy on all insurance policies?)

So what happens if the economy hasn't recovered in 5 years? A not unlikely prospect given the headless chicken leadership coming out of Europe and the complete chickens in Leinster House? 500,000 people with zero income? Or if a partial recovery has taken place - 200,000?

 People do not even have the option of emigrating to the U.S/U.K in large numbers as in previous recessions as they are in severe trouble. I doubt if Australia/ Canada could absorb all circa 500,000 on the live register (plus dependants).

Say 200,000 are still on the Live Register in 5 years (less then half those on the current live register - I also have not factored in those in education/training courses which would greatly inflate the actual number receiving income from the state)

200k people who get cut off on 1st Jan 2017 - the economy is by then beginning to slowly recover - 5 years of university/leaving cert graduates have been absorbed without inflating the unemployment figure (unlikely) but now there are 200 k people (some with dependants - wives/children ) with no income!

This would have a massive knock-on effect on the retail sector (shops closing = job losses), health services (illnesses associated with malnutrition), financial sector (mortgage defaults on a grand scale), education (seriously - how many children will be sent to school hungry - will free school meal have to be introduced? What would be the cost of that? How will parents afford text books/copies/pencils/uniforms/transport? - do we breed an uneducated underclass with no prospects)



What about loan parents - do they get cut off when the child reaches 5? 7? 10? I assume disability payments continue - but for how long?

What about pensioners? If they exceed the average life expectancy do they get cut off? I have a grand uncle in his late 90s - he retired in 1983 - by his own admission he has gotten far more out of this pensions then he ever paid in (UK MOD (RAF)/ B.A.private pension for clarity). Should George Osborne say to him 'sorry old chap - very grateful for the ol chocks away never in the field of human conflict stuff back in the day - but that was over 50 years ago and no-one expected you to live this long so we are cutting you off old man!'

The fact is SW money stays in the system - its forms part of that essential cash flow that keeps things ticking over. No-one is squirrling it away into off shore accounts or buying bank bonds with it. They are buying food, clothes, electricity, gas and yes sometimes fags and booze - the VAT goes to the State and the rest helps keep the retail sector afloat among other things.

IMHO - To suddenly halt that flow of cash in the economy in 5 years time would kill any recovery stone dead if not before as people on SW cut back on even basic spending in years 4/5 to try and have some nest egg.

Those who have lost their homes due to cut off of RA/Mortgage defaults - where do they go? Will there be 'Bertievilles' in Phoenix Park? What about the landlord who have lost their income from RA (bless them...)? Lot of empty properties suddenly appear on the market in 5 years as landlords sell and banks repossess homes. Well there goes any recovery in construction/property market.

How do we deal with the inevitable rise in crime? Build more prisons? - how many millions will that cost? Employ more guards/prison officers? Arn't we trying to cut the number of PS workers?

That is one scary scenario :eek:

Increasing taxes on middle class and widening tax net will have exactly the same effect on retail sector and number of mortgage defaults. Few hundreds jobs created by FDI wont improve situation much, apart from adding few billions to GDP, but not GNP
As soon as Germany will gain control over Irish corporate tax as price for bailout, FDI will dry in one day, because it was only thing which Ireland could offer for foreign investors.
It will be less and less money to pay taxes and there is no way that government will be able to preserve rates for more then two years.
It make more sense to start cuts now and slowly, starting from those who made living on welfare benefits as lifestyle, rather then wait and then have guaranteed riots due sharp adjustment.
Flat cuts like 8 euro for everybody doesn't make any sense, but progressive cuts, which will depend from number of years which people paid PRSI, are perfectly logical.

BTW, cutting PS numbers is not main goal, government is cutting PS pay bill, while trying to preserve salaries in public sector by cutting numbers through natural wastage, instead of cutting salaries and using saved money to reduce unemployment

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Harsh and suicidal IMO - say that had been in place when the ghost estate of cards collapsed and the job losses started to bite and for the easy maths of it say payment was reduced by 10% a year over the 5 years (Y5= 188/ Y4 = 169.2/ Y3 = 152.3 / Y4 = 137.1/ Y5 = 123.4 ) then we would now have people living year 3 now on 152.3 while the country is also in almost negative growth, unemployment is increasing as are stealth taxes.

Were employment on the increase and the cost of living becoming appreciably lower this may be workable but there is absolutely no sign of this happening 3 years into this recession- indeed during the CT years of near full employment it would have been a serious option - but now we are facing into a potential lost decade it strikes me as utter madness TBH. If this were the sceanario I imagine any money saved would have to be used on internal security as there would be riots.

It makes more sense if we are to preserve some form of stability that a better allocation of limited resources is to pay people enough to get by from week to week rather then paying overtime to the Gardaí to quell the inevitable civil unrest? Unrest which would also discourage foreign investment and cause billions in damage (riot levy on all insurance policies?)

So what happens if the economy hasn't recovered in 5 years? A not unlikely prospect given the headless chicken leadership coming out of Europe and the complete chickens in Leinster House? 500,000 people with zero income? Or if a partial recovery has taken place - 200,000?

 People do not even have the option of emigrating to the U.S/U.K in large numbers as in previous recessions as they are in severe trouble. I doubt if Australia/ Canada could absorb all circa 500,000 on the live register (plus dependants).

Say 200,000 are still on the Live Register in 5 years (less then half those on the current live register - I also have not factored in those in education/training courses which would greatly inflate the actual number receiving income from the state)

200k people who get cut off on 1st Jan 2017 - the economy is by then beginning to slowly recover - 5 years of university/leaving cert graduates have been absorbed without inflating the unemployment figure (unlikely) but now there are 200 k people (some with dependants - wives/children ) with no income!

This would have a massive knock-on effect on the retail sector (shops closing = job losses), health services (illnesses associated with malnutrition), financial sector (mortgage defaults on a grand scale), education (seriously - how many children will be sent to school hungry - will free school meal have to be introduced? What would be the cost of that? How will parents afford text books/copies/pencils/uniforms/transport? - do we breed an uneducated underclass with no prospects)



What about loan parents - do they get cut off when the child reaches 5? 7? 10? I assume disability payments continue - but for how long?

What about pensioners? If they exceed the average life expectancy do they get cut off? I have a grand uncle in his late 90s - he retired in 1983 - by his own admission he has gotten far more out of this pensions then he ever paid in (UK MOD (RAF)/ B.A.private pension for clarity). Should George Osborne say to him 'sorry old chap - very grateful for the ol chocks away never in the field of human conflict stuff back in the day - but that was over 50 years ago and no-one expected you to live this long so we are cutting you off old man!'

The fact is SW money stays in the system - its forms part of that essential cash flow that keeps things ticking over. No-one is squirrling it away into off shore accounts or buying bank bonds with it. They are buying food, clothes, electricity, gas and yes sometimes fags and booze - the VAT goes to the State and the rest helps keep the retail sector afloat among other things.

IMHO - To suddenly halt that flow of cash in the economy in 5 years time would kill any recovery stone dead if not before as people on SW cut back on even basic spending in years 4/5 to try and have some nest egg.

Those who have lost their homes due to cut off of RA/Mortgage defaults - where do they go? Will there be 'Bertievilles' in Phoenix Park? What about the landlord who have lost their income from RA (bless them...)? Lot of empty properties suddenly appear on the market in 5 years as landlords sell and banks repossess homes. Well there goes any recovery in construction/property market.

How do we deal with the inevitable rise in crime? Build more prisons? - how many millions will that cost? Employ more guards/prison officers? Arn't we trying to cut the number of PS workers?

That is one scary scenario :eek:

Some current info on unemployment figures:

THE number of people on the Live Register in Ireland rose by 1,700 in November while the jobless rate rose slightly to 14.5pc, the Central Statistics Office revealed today.

Meanwhile, the numbers out of work in the euro zone area have hit a new high at 10.3pc.

The Eurostat data agency has estimated that nearly 16.3 million men and women were jobless last month after 126,000 more were registered as unemployed than in September.

The unemployment rate across the 27-nation EU also rose to 9.8pc in October from 9.7pc a month earlier.

Almost 23.6 million people were unemployed in the EU in October, an increase of 130,000 from September.

The highest unemployment rate was in Spain where it rose to 22.8pc in October.

In Greece the jobless rate soared to 18.3pc in August compared with 12.9pc in the same month in 2010 – no more recent data is available. Austria recorded the lowest rate at 4.1pc.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/jobless-rate-in-ireland-up-to-145pc-while-euro-zone-hits-new-record-at-103pc-2949658.html

It's getting worse...:(

JaneyMacker

Iamhere wrote: »

I earn €25k give or take and i can tell you i pay quiet a bit of tax...

I bet you dont.
Id like to see the tax you pay beside the tax someone pays who earns €50k or €100k.

Do tell.

I think it would look something like this (rough calculation)

€25K : Tax + prsi + usc = €4500 = €86PW
€50k : Tax + prsi + usc = €15000 = €288PW
€100k : Tax + prsi + usc = €40000 = €788PW

The person on 50k earns twice as much as you. They pay over 3 times as much tax as you.

The person on 100k earns 4 times what you earn but pays almost 10 times as much tax as you do.

All this is fair enough, but these are the people who will just up and leave and let you continue to cry into your milk that they should pay more tax. Who is going to subsidize your lifestyle when they all leave. See how much tax you'll have to pay then to keep the country running.

Bannasidhe

Count Dooku wrote: »

Increasing taxes on middle class and widening tax net will have exactly the same effect on retail sector and number of mortgage defaults. Few hundreds jobs created by FDI wont improve situation much, apart from adding few billions to GDP, but not GNP
As soon as Germany will gain control over Irish corporate tax as price for bailout, FDI will dry in one day, because it was only thing which Ireland could offer for foreign investors.
It will be less and less money to pay taxes and there is no way that government will be able to preserve rates for more then two years.
It make more sense to start cuts now and slowly, starting from those who made living on welfare benefits as lifestyle, rather then wait and then have guaranteed riots due sharp adjustment.
Flat cuts like 8 euro for everybody doesn't make any sense, but progressive cuts, which will depend from number of years which people paid PRSI, are perfectly logical.

BTW, cutting PS numbers is not main goal, government is cutting PS pay bill, while trying to preserve salaries in public sector by cutting numbers through natural wastage, instead of cutting salaries and using saved money to reduce unemployment

That still does not address the issue of what would happen should hundreds of thousands of people suddenly have zero income.

Having a situation where the (even if we half the current live register figure) 7.25% of the population (plus their dependants) have less income then the UN definition of universal poverty (rather then relevant poverty in a Western context) of 2 US dollars a day would be a disaster for the country on so many levels.

Yes - efficiencies need to be made, yes the State needs to make cuts across the board where everyone (even if we say only those paid from the public purse as State expenditure needs to be reigned in) takes a comparable hit - what would be a comparable hit for PS workers in 5 years compared to a 100% loss of SW?

Do we 'save' the economy (for some...) only to create slums found in Calcutta or parts of the Philippines? Seriously?

I never said cutting PS was a main goal - I mentioned it was one of the tactics - looking to cut 23,500 by 2015.

Bannasidhe

JaneyMacker wrote: »

I bet you dont.
Id like to see the tax you pay beside the tax someone pays who earns €50k or €100k.

Do tell.

I think it would look something like this (rough calculation)

€25K : Tax + prsi + usc = €4500 = €86PW
€50k : Tax + prsi + usc = €15000 = €288PW
€100k : Tax + prsi + usc = €40000 = €788PW

The person on 50k earns twice as much as you. They pay over 3 times as much tax as you.

The person on 100k earns 4 times what you earn but pays almost 10 times as much tax as you do.

All this is fair enough, but these are the people who will just up and leave and let you continue to cry into your milk that they should pay more tax. Who is going to subsidize your lifestyle when they all leave. See how much tax you'll have to pay then to keep the country running.

I see lots of these if we tax the high earners too much they will leave comments - as a matter of interest, in a contracting global economy heading deeper into a depression, never mind recession, where exactly will they go?