Coilte acting like a dictator over use of public land

Bluefoam

I don't know if it is widely known yet or not, but following the huge international success of the Epic Blast this year, Coilte have refused to allow Epic MTB to stage any more events on publicly owned land in their control.

They sent a very curt and petty communication to the club and have not fully explained their motives. This follows the bylaws which ban mountain biking on Coilte administered land, which I find to be an insult to the people of Ireland.

It is time for all cyclists and countryside users to get together and offer some support to EPIC & MAD (who have similar experiences recently) or we will find ourselves in a situation where no one is entitled to use the countryside as they deserve.

If you read the websites of either club, you will notice that they both advocate reasonable and measured used of our natural resources, and are very professional & respectful in staging world class events.

I do understand that there has been a misunderstanding in the land ownership and boundary issues where the Blast is staged, but this has never been raised in the 6 years the event has been run & it would be more positive if Coilte engaged in a reasonable debate on the matter rather than acting like children in a school yard.

Epic MTB will no longer be issued permits for events on Coillte lands. We expect permit holders to respect the resource that we make available for their use. The recent event at Ballinastoe refers.
Regards
Daithi de Forge

Icyseanfitz

so let me get this straight, one of the best praised mtb events in europe is not allowed to happen any more because coilte dont want epic using that land? if so coilte and this country is even more retarded than i thought, people from all around the world travel to this country for that event :mad: arnt we supposed to be encouraging tourism :mad:

i would also like to add that i was banned from the epic site (dont know why tbh) and i am completely behind richie and epic in this, any sort of protest whatever il try to make it, fcuking politicians

GTDolanator

when was this event supposed to take place?
its an outrage tbh

-Chris-

What are the details of the new byelaws, does anyone know?

Bluefoam

GTDolanator wrote: »

when was this event supposed to take place?
its an outrage tbh

The Blast was held on 11th September. But Epic run numberious events throughout the year for all levels and types of cyclist. When they applied for a permit to hold an NPS (National Point Series) Event this year, they recieved the response: Epic MTB will no longer be issued permits for events on Coillte lands

Bunnyhopper

This must be hugely frustrating for the people who organize the event, though some of the posts on the EPIC MTB thread would nearly put me off, to be honest. I think there's an opportunity to play it smart rather than to go off on what sounds like (and would be effectively dismissed by opponents as) a testosterone-fuelled rant.

Coillte is the only semi-State agency to reject the government-proposed 15% pay cut. The CEO of Coillte, David Gunning, has not taken the pay cut and the Taoiseach was complaining about it recently.

If Epic can better focus their quite understandable rage, play it cooler and present this as overpaid quango busybodies cackhandedly interfering with an internationally successful sporting event that presents Ireland in a positive light, brings money into the economy, supports our Olympians, etc. etc., then I'd say they could get more than a few politicians onside who'll gladly take the chance to embarrass Coillte and put the boot in. Get on board the likes of Robin Seymour, Cait Elliott, Tarja Owens, and even our own Ryan Sherlock and Mel Spath (and lots of others that those more familiar with the Irish MTB scene could probably name) and I dare say you could do some damage.

If that doesn't work then Occupy Coillte

kincsem

Two sides to every story. Why the change?

MichealD

Epic MTB will no longer be issued permits for events on Coillte lands. We expect permit holders to respect the resource that we make available for their use. The recent event at Ballinastoe refers.
Regards
Daithi de Forge



Obviously more to this than meets the eye. The decision looks directed at Epic in particular rather than cycling clubs in general. What happened in Ballinastoe to make Coillte come up with this decision?

Bluefoam

kincsem wrote: »

Two sides to every story. Why the change?

I think there is a general perception that Coilte don't want mountain bikers on public land at all, they see mountain users as a nusence and a liability - even though all club members these days are required to have public liability insurance...!

Coilte have provided three trails suitable for basic use (but have not included any facilities, such as parking/washing/changing etc.) & have taken the stance that they have now provided for Mountainbikers and all mountainbiking should take place on those trails.

I agree that the govenment and sporting groups should be providing officially design and maintained trails, with full facilities for locals and tourists alike, but I believe it is wrong to stop Irish people exploring Irelands public land on their bicycles.

ThisRegard

There's some odd people over in that forum, talk about hammering nails into tees and hacking up the fire roads and general vandalism of forests. As already mentioned, what did happen at Ballinstoe? Edit, boundary dispute?

Bluefoam

MichealD wrote: »

Epic MTB will no longer be issued permits for events on Coillte lands. We expect permit holders to respect the resource that we make available for their use. The recent event at Ballinastoe refers.
Regards
Daithi de Forge



Obviously more to this than meets the eye. The decision looks directed at Epic in particular rather than cycling clubs in general. What happened in Ballinastoe to make Coillte come up with this decision?

MichaelD, the above email was addressed to Epic in response to a request for a permit to stage this years NPS, therefore, yes it is directed at Epic in particular. Mad have also had permits rejected this year, although I do not know the full circumnstances.

If you read my message above, you will find that I mention the land dispute. It seams that at the top of Balinasteo, where the Blast is held every year, there is a piece of land whos boundary is ambiguous. It has been presumed for many years that the land is common land - it is not fenced off, demarked or signposted. It turns out that the land is actually in the care of NPWS & coiltes permit for the blast did not include for use of this land as the starting point for the race. It appears that the NPWS are now in talks with Epic about the future use of this land, but Coilte have blown a gasket and even though the disputed land is not theirs they have taken major issue over its use...

Bluefoam

What really baffles me is the patronising and infantile nature of the Coilte communication.

There is such thing as professional practice. If someone in my business sent such an email, there would be serious questions to be answered. The management of coilte are overpaid to the extreme as highlighted in todays press, they have drastically mismanaged our forestry, yet they claim to take the higher ground on this issue.

The nature of this communication is not only disrespectful to Epic, but to all the forest users who benefit from these events and also to the local businesses who benefit from the events on the day, as well as the residual business gained through the exposure to these events.

C3PO

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's some odd people over in that forum, talk about hammering nails into tees and hacking up the fire roads and general vandalism of forests.

While we pride ourselves on encouraging strong viewpoints and have a policy of loose forum moderation I have never seen any Epic member espousing those sort of views on our site! Can you show some examples?

ThisRegard

Page 2 of the current thread on this topic, now I obviously don't know the posters history so probably in jest, but it's not unknown for such things to happen. Again, not saying it's going to happen either.

Jawgap

One response might be to survey everyone who attended your event last year to get an idea of how much they spent locally, then write to the Ministers for Natural Resources, Agriculture (under who Coillte are), Tourism and Sport (Varadkar) and Health.

You could also include the local TDs and Councillors.

Write pointing out how much this event brought into the area, the prestige it brings nationally and internationally (any examples of anyone travelling from outside the country would probably look very good), how MTB'ing encourages cycling and fitness etc.

In short, emphasise the positives and by-pass Coillte - as a semi-state they won't listen to reason but they are very susceptible to political pressure.

Moflojo

Bluefoam wrote: »

What really baffles me is the patronising and infantile nature of the Coilte communication.

There is such thing as professional practice. If someone in my business sent such an email, there would be serious questions to be answered. The management of coilte are overpaid to the extreme as highlighted in todays press, they have drastically mismanaged our forestry, yet they claim to take the higher ground on this issue.

The nature of this communication is not only disrespectful to Epic, but to all the forest users who benefit from these events and also to the local businesses who benefit from the events on the day, as well as the residual business gained through the exposure to these events.

I don't know the nature of the dispute between Coillte and Epic so I won't go into it, but there seems to be a belief amongst some of the mtb posters here that they have an absolute right to use all the Coillte land they wish for the purposes of mountain biking.

The fact is that Coillte owns the land and it is their right to do with it as they see fit (within the guidelines set out by government). Mountain bikers, or any member of the public, do not have any rights to the use of the land, outside of those agreed to by Coillte. (This is my interpretation anyway!)

If I was to make a comparison it would be something like complaining that Dublin airport is indirectly owned by The People so therefore I should be allowed to fly my model planes there.

In short, the door swings both ways Bluefoam but, in this case, Coillte owns the door!

Bluefoam

Moflojo, on the contrary, Coilte do no own the land. They are purely caretakers and are expected to act on behalf of the people of Ireland. Management of the logging is only part of their remit and it is not their business to dictate to the land users... There would be war if they were to treat leisure walkers and hikers in the same way. The land that Coilte operates is public land. They do not own it, we do.

Chips Lovell

Coillte does own the land.

copacetic

Is that the level of ignorance that coillte have to deal with in general? They do own the land and generally have been extremely supportive of mountain biking when they have no requirement to be.

Personally I'd like to know what has gone on here apart from the totally one sided and over the top postings here.

Moflojo

Bluefoam wrote: »

Moflojo, on the contrary, Coilte do no own the land...The land that Coilte operates is public land. They do not own it, we do.

I'm no expert on this, but Coillte seems pretty sure that it owns the land too. From the Coillte website:

"The company employs approx 1,100 people and was established in 1988. It owns over 445,000 hectares of land, about 7% of the land cover of Ireland."

I'm just speculating here but the attitude of "They don't own the land, we do!" is probably a big contributing factor to the friction between Coillte and certain MTB clubs...

ThisRegard

The difference between mtb'ers and walkers and hikers is that despite the best efforts of probably most, it only takes one or two bikers to leave a lot of visible damage, for example on Djouce there's some recent scaring from bikers descending towards the river on the boggy parts rather than sticking to the existing trail. It's very noticeable and goes against the leave no trace policy.

rp

Moflojo wrote: »

I'm no expert on this, but Coillte seem pretty sure that they own the land too. From the Coillte website:

"The company employs approx 1,100 people and was established in 1988. It owns over 445,000 hectares of land, about 7% of the land cover of Ireland."

I'm just speculating here but the attitude of "They don't own the land, we do!" is probably a big contributing factor to the friction between Coillte and certain MTB clubs...

Also from that website:

Coillte was established under the Forestry Act 1988, which defines the principal objectives and duties of the company. These objectives and duties are elaborated in the Memorandum and Articles of Association. The company is a private limited company registered under and subject to the Companies Acts 1963-86. All of the shares in the company are held by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Minister for Finance on behalf of the Irish State.

Now, I might be deluding myself, but being a Republic are not we-the-people the state on whose behalf the shares are held?

Chips Lovell

rp wrote: »

Also from that website:

Now, I might be deluding myself, but being a Republic are not we-the-people the state on whose behalf the shares are held?

Yes, but as Moflojo pointed out, just because property is ultimately owned by the state doesn't give you the right to do what you want with it. I can't have my 21st in Donnybrook bus garage, for example.

copacetic

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Yes, but as Moflojo pointed out, just because property is ultimately owned by the state doesn't give you the right to do what you want with it. I can't have my 21st in Donnybrook bus garage, for example.

Well if they don't let you, tell us who said no and we can then personally abuse them on public forums. That'll be the sensible smart thing to do and will lead to it being sorted asap..

Chips Lovell

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's some odd people over in that forum, talk about hammering nails into tees and hacking up the fire roads and general vandalism of forests. As already mentioned, what did happen at Ballinstoe? Edit, boundary dispute?

RPL1 wrote: »

While we pride ourselves on encouraging strong viewpoints and have a policy of loose forum moderation I have never seen any Epic member espousing those sort of views on our site! Can you show some examples?

He edited that stuff out of his his post.

Last edited by jackson; Today at 04:23 PM. Reason: gob****e on boards

Bluefoam

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's some odd people over in that forum, talk about hammering nails into tees and hacking up the fire roads and general vandalism of forests. As already mentioned, what did happen at Ballinstoe? Edit, boundary dispute?

RPL1 wrote: »

While we pride ourselves on encouraging strong viewpoints and have a policy of loose forum moderation I have never seen any Epic member espousing those sort of views on our site! Can you show some examples?

He edited that stuff out of his his post.

Last edited by jackson; Today at 04:23 PM. Reason: gob****e on boards

In fairness to him, I did look up the posts earlier and it was very obvious he was be facetious. Maybe that doesn't always come across to all on internet forums...

ThisRegard

Ha ha, I'm the gob****e ?

Bluefoam

ThisRegard wrote: »

The difference between mtb'ers and walkers and hikers is that despite the best efforts of probably most, it only takes one or two bikers to leave a lot of visible damage, for example on Djouce there's some recent scaring from bikers descending towards the river on the boggy parts rather than sticking to the existing trail. It's very noticeable and goes against the leave no trace policy.

Honestly, have you ever paid attention to the surface damage done by walkers in comparison to cyclists?

Chips Lovell

Is this correct?

We've been running the Blast for 6 years, its been on tv, in the papers, magazines , we always assumed the top section was commonage, it turns out its NPWS..you would have thought that in 6 years somebody would have noticed, unless of course there was nothing to notice ! The only thing I noticed was the several kms of creosote covered railway sleepers hammered in to the bog up there !!
and the hundreds of sheep, the firemen burning the heather..
National park, SAC..are you mad, wheres the feckin signs ? Red Bull flew a chopper, placed some sort of Civil defence army up there..
and we are in breach of some sort of law ....

ThisRegard

Yes, but as I said, it's much more noticeable when it's a bike track hundreds of metres long and makes it easier for someone in national parks or coilte to point the finger. I've nothing whatsoever against the sport or riders, just pointing out how easy it is to see when one goes against either agencys policies.

uberwolf

I've been mountainbiking for 16 years. I can remember before the signs went up banning mountain biking on virtually all coillte land. I say this to emphasise how far things have come in the relationship with coillte.

With respect to Epic I'd be very curious to have an overview of the deterioration of the relationship. With one man ruling this fiefdom and the organisations capacity to withstand political pressure over a much bigger issue I would have thought a more conciliatory approach would reap greater rewards.

Johnny Jukebox

ThisRegard wrote: »

The difference between mtb'ers and walkers and hikers is that despite the best efforts of probably most, it only takes one or two bikers to leave a lot of visible damage, for example on Djouce there's some recent scaring from bikers descending towards the river on the boggy parts rather than sticking to the existing trail. It's very noticeable and goes against the leave no trace policy.

The existing trail was er, refactored by well meaning individuals so that it became a very technical descent and an impossible ascent for MTBs. A more strategic approach might have been to adopt an alpine style zig zag design. The condition of this trail pales into insignificance though when compared with the acres of felling surrounding it which bring a Somme 1916 ambiance to the locality.

I believe Coillte activities in areas that are heavily used for recreational purposes are no longer fit for purpose and an increasing external focus is coming onto the economic viability and desirability of its current operational strategy when placed in the context of a high level of recreational use.

When the Taoiseach of the day has to make a public call to embarrass the CEO of Coillte into falling into line with his counterparts, its suggest to me an organisation that is consumed with its own self-importance and arrogance.

ThisRegard

It's the Wicklow Way I'm talking about.

Tenzor07

ThisRegard wrote: »

The difference between mtb'ers and walkers and hikers is that despite the best efforts of probably most, it only takes one or two bikers to leave a lot of visible damage, for example on Djouce there's some recent scaring from bikers descending towards the river on the boggy parts rather than sticking to the existing trail. It's very noticeable and goes against the leave no trace policy.

Disagree with you there.. Have rarely seen just one or two walkers on the trail..with the explosion in popularity of walking you regularly get groups of 20 and more, so that's a lot of hiking boots digging into the trail to get grip..

Anyways, that's off topic!

The basic point here is that the Head of a department in a Semi-State body wants to restrict the sport of mountain biking in Ireland to a couple of badly designed trails with no facilities...
Can you imagine everyone who likes to go out on the trails cycling turn up an Ballinastoe on a Saturday? Would be mayhem!

Can you imagine the uproar if all the small Soccer clubs around Ireland were told to go play on Indoor Astroturf pitches because there studded boots were damaging all the parks? There would be a march on the Dail!!

Lumen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Yes, but as Moflojo pointed out, just because property is ultimately owned by the state doesn't give you the right to do what you want with it. I can't have my 21st in Donnybrook bus garage, for example.

...because no one has invented a sufficiently powerful time machine?

Johnny Jukebox

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's the Wicklow Way I'm talking about.

I know exactly where you're talking about.

C3PO

copacetic wrote: »

and generally have been extremely supportive of mountain biking .....

Now that's just nonsense!

C3PO

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Yes, but as Moflojo pointed out, just because property is ultimately owned by the state doesn't give you the right to do what you want with it. I can't have my 21st in Donnybrook bus garage, for example.

I think a much fairer and more apt comparison would be if the NAtional Roads Authority decided that they would no longer allow Road clubs to hold races on public roads because they saw some riders crossing over solid white lines! After all there is no sensible reason for the roads to be used for bike racing and yet it happens every weekend, all over the country!

Chips Lovell

It's the cops, not the NRA who have responsibility for that. And the scenario you outlined is an ongoing issue in England, with police not giving permission for road races in many areas.

I'm aware of several race circuits here that have had to be changed due to complaints from local residents. Bizarrely, a lot of them have been down to public urination.

Anyhow, I don't think anyone believes they have a god given right to race on public roads. You need the co-operation of the guards and the local community for it to happen.

Turnstyle

I go mtb'ing regularly in Coilte forrests in my area, I have never seen any signs that state the activity is not allowed like being mentioned here... and if the employee of any overpaid quango ever tells me to leave they will get a quick answer. I always treat the forrest with respect and the only traces I leave are a few skidmarks, non queationable compared with the damage left by forrestry machinery and the ugly look tree felling leaves on country scenery. The mountains of Ireland have been used for recreation purposes long before Coilte were ever heard of.

C3PO

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Anyhow, I don't think anyone believes they have a god given right to race on public roads. You need the co-operation of the guards and the local community for it to happen.

And we (Epic) don't believe that we have a God Given Right to race on Coillte lands but we really feel that we have gone to huge lengths to meet their permit conditions over many years and events and for no real reason they have decided not to grant us permission to hold a race next year.

Icyseanfitz

if it becomes "frowned upon" to go into woods with your bike again (even though it hasnt even been that great for the last few years tbh) the whole scene will just go underground again, theres too many people interested in the sport to be happy the easy trails coilte have given us (only three that i know of)

Chips Lovell

RPL1 wrote: »

And we (Epic) don't believe that we have a God Given Right to race on Coillte lands but we really feel that we have gone to huge lengths to meet their permit conditions over many years and events and for no real reason they have decided not to grant us permission to hold a race next year.

That's a position I'd really empathise with. You feel you're doing your best to meet their conditions and you feel short changed by their refusal. But I don't think the reaction of a lot of the guys on the web (both here and on the Epic forum) is doing the club any favours. Calling Coillte dictators and the like isn't going to solve this problem.

Am I right in saying that the issue appears to be that the event accidentally encroached on Special Area of Conservation owned by the NPWS? Were there any discussions about this or was that email the first and last communication on the matter?

Johnny Jukebox

Turnstyle wrote: »

I go mtb'ing regularly in Coilte forrests in my area, I have never seen any signs that state the activity is not allowed like being mentioned here... and if the employee of any overpaid quango ever tells me to leave they will get a quick answer. I always treat the forrest with respect and the only traces I leave are a few skidmarks, non queationable compared with the damage left by forrestry machinery and the ugly look tree felling leaves on country scenery. The mountains of Ireland have been used for recreation purposes long before Coilte were ever heard of.

Here is a link to the bye-law that was introduced in 2009 (at the behest of Coillte) which covers recreational activity (including MTB) on Coillte lands.

http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/recreation/bye_laws/

This law is enforceable by the Gardai as I understand it. For example, Fingal county council introduced a bye-law in 2004 that banned on street drinking and it was rigorously enforced by the Gardai. See here;

http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/drinking-on-streets-is-banned-782666.html

This means that,given the right circumstances, you could end up in court for riding your MTB on Coillte land and ultimately with a criminal conviction.

I am not a lawyer, so please feel free to contradict.

C3PO

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Am I right in saying that the issue appears to be that the event accidentally encroached on Special Area of Conservation owned by the NPWS? Were there any discussions about this or was that email the first and last communication on the matter?

Yes that's correct - for the last 6 years The Blast has started from exactly the same place without any complaints from anybody but this year NPWS realised that this was actually their land - probably because of the numerous Red Bull videos doing the rounds! We have been in correspondence with NPWS about this but we have had no contact from Coillte at all until the permit refusal which is not even for Ballinastoe but for an XC race in Djouce!

C3PO

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

This means that,given the right circumstances, you could end up in court for riding your MTB on Coillte land and ultimately with a criminal conviction.

I am not a lawyer, so please feel free to contradict.

Technically you are probably correct but practically it would be impossible to police - even if the Guards were inclined to which I somehow doubt!

Turnstyle

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

Turnstyle wrote: »

I go mtb'ing regularly in Coilte forrests in my area, I have never seen any signs that state the activity is not allowed like being mentioned here... and if the employee of any overpaid quango ever tells me to leave they will get a quick answer. I always treat the forrest with respect and the only traces I leave are a few skidmarks, non queationable compared with the damage left by forrestry machinery and the ugly look tree felling leaves on country scenery. The mountains of Ireland have been used for recreation purposes long before Coilte were ever heard of.

Here is a link to the bye-law that was introduced in 2009 (at the behest of Coillte) which covers recreational activity (including MTB) on Coillte lands.

http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/recreation/bye_laws/

This law is enforceable by the Gardai as I understand it. For example, Fingal county council introduced a bye-law in 2004 that banned on street drinking and it was rigorously enforced by the Gardai. See here;

http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/drinking-on-streets-is-banned-782666.html

This means that,given the right circumstances, you could end up in court for riding your MTB on Coillte land and ultimately with a criminal conviction.

I am not a lawyer, so please feel free to contradict.

Thanks for the links but bye laws or not i will continue to cycle there...
Its just more nanny state bs.
The horsey brigade use the same woods regularly, felling trees to make jumps, wreck the trails i use, take the whole town over and leave the place stinking of sh1t, do the same bye laws apply to them? I dont have a problem with them but fair is fair...

Chips Lovell

RPL1 wrote: »

Yes that's correct - for the last 6 years The Blast has started from exactly the same place without any complaints from anybody but this year NPWS realised that this was actually their land - probably because of the numerous Red Bull videos doing the rounds! We have been in correspondence with NPWS about this but we have had no contact from Coillte at all until the permit refusal which is not even for Ballinastoe but for an XC race in Djouce!

Is it possible then that the NPWS chewed out Coillte for telling Epic they could ride on their land when they first found out about it and, as a result, Coillte have decided that giving permission to Epic to run events just creates trouble for them?

Chips Lovell

Turnstyle wrote: »

do the same bye laws apply to them?

If a horse is a "mode of conveyance", then yes.

(2) A person shall not use on Coillte lands any mode of conveyance, except
on such places and on such routes as may be designated in respect of the mode
of conveyance concerned.
10. A person shall not abandon any mode of conveyance on Coillte lands.
11. A person shall not leave any mode of conveyance unattended on Coillte
lands except in designated standing or parking areas.

Bluefoam

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

RPL1 wrote: »

Yes that's correct - for the last 6 years The Blast has started from exactly the same place without any complaints from anybody but this year NPWS realised that this was actually their land - probably because of the numerous Red Bull videos doing the rounds! We have been in correspondence with NPWS about this but we have had no contact from Coillte at all until the permit refusal which is not even for Ballinastoe but for an XC race in Djouce!

Is it possible then that the NPWS chewed out Coillte for telling Epic they could ride on their land when they first found out about it and, as a result, Coillte have decided that giving permission to Epic to run events just creates trouble for them?

That sounds very likely

Johnny Jukebox

RPL1 wrote: »

Technically you are probably correct but practically it would be impossible to police - even if the Guards were inclined to which I somehow doubt!

Absolutely agree - but its a legal possibility and that is truly sickening.

You can imagine a scenario though when Mr. De Forge gets one too many complaints, calls up the member-in-charge in Enniskerry and demands something to be done who in turn sends a car up to Djouce and snares the poor unfortunates who happen to be in the lower car park at the wrong time...