The USI or the Library - you choose!!

Eliot Rosewater

Every three years UCC students vote on USI membership, and this year (2011/12) is one of those years. USI membership costs UCC about €150,000 a year, if I recall correctly. There's a €100,000 lump sum payment and then all students who pay the registration fee pay €5.

I'm not really sure what the benefits of USI membership are. I know they spend a truck load of money on protests - for instance, they spent €17,000 on full page ads in two national newspapers a few weeks ago. I find the USI president Gary Redmond highly disagreeable: a strong Ogra FFer, this is his fourth year in full time student politics, which is more time than he's spent actually being a student (3 years)! On Primetime last month he said that after secondary school people either go into third level, go on the dole or emigrate. I think it says a lot about the bubble he lives in that he isn't aware of the many people who enter trades and unskilled labour. Can anyone explain what we get out of USI?!


But, anyway, here's the question: if UCC guaranteed that in the event of a vote to leave the USI the €150,000 freed-up membership fee would be used to extend library services, especially opening hours on the weekend, how would you vote?!

UpTheSlashers

All I can find on their website is the TellYourTD campaign. Anyone know what the benefits of USI membership would be? Presumably It'll be of more benefit to UCCSU members rather UCC students in general.

GSOIRL

I don't know what benefits the USI brings but I'd love if the Library was open on Sundays.

Byron85

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Every three years UCC students vote on USI membership, and this year (2011/12) is one of those years. USI membership costs UCC about €150,000 a year, if I recall correctly. There's a €100,000 lump sum payment and then all students who pay the registration fee pay €5.

I'm not really sure what the benefits of USI membership are. I know they spend a truck load of money on protests - for instance, they spent €17,000 on full page ads in two national newspapers a few weeks ago. I find the USI president Gary Redmond highly disagreeable: a strong Ogra FFer, this is his fourth year in full time student politics, which is more time than he's spent actually being a student (3 years)! On Primetime last month he said that after secondary school people either go into third level, go on the dole or emigrate. I think it says a lot about the bubble he lives in that he isn't aware of the many people who enter trades and unskilled labour. Can anyone explain what we get out of USI?!


But, anyway, here's the question: if UCC guaranteed that in the event of a vote to leave the USI the €150,000 freed-up membership fee would be used to extend library services, especially opening hours on the weekend, how would you vote?!

Why do I get the feeling we're going to be running yet another controversial campaign??

Poll is very silly. Who wouldn't vote for extended library hours? But it's not a fair question as who is to say how the money would actually be spent once it's handed over.

I've never personally been in favour of increasing levies to pay for what should be basic services in a college. Particularly because you'd be paying twice - your registration fee pays for the use of the library. Also, I've always disliked giving off the idea to any college that students are willing to pay for more services, for the obvious reason that 'if students are willing to pay for one benefit, why not charge them for all services?'.

I'm not a UCC student so the above points are general. Also, I should disclaim that I was heavily involved in TCDSU half a decade ago, but please don't consider this post as a blind advocate just because of my history.

Eliot Rosewater

Dónal wrote: »

Poll is very silly. Who wouldn't vote for extended library hours?

Erm, people who felt that the USI funding was more important?

Dónal wrote: »

But it's not a fair question as who is to say how the money would actually be spent once it's handed over.

Well yes - that's why my opening post explicitly says

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

But, anyway, here's the question: if UCC guaranteed that in the event of a vote to leave the USI the €150,000 freed-up membership fee would be used to extend library services, especially opening hours on the weekend, how would you vote?!

Dónal wrote: »

I've never personally been in favour of increasing levies to pay for what should be basic services in a college.

As it stands, the UCC library is only opened for 3 hours on Saturday morning and it is closed all day Sunday. While I would much prefer regular opening hours on the weekend - particularly as I live nearby - I can understand how weekend opening might not be considered a "basic service" but a bonus extra, especially in the current fiscally thrifty climate.

Dónal wrote: »

Particularly because you'd be paying twice - your registration fee pays for the use of the library. Also, I've always disliked giving off the idea to any college that students are willing to pay for more services, for the obvious reason that 'if students are willing to pay for one benefit, why not charge them for all services?'.

In fairness, this isn't about paying more. It's about using the money we already pay in a different fashion.

Eliot Rosewater

Byron85 wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling we're going to be running yet another controversial campaign??

Well, if that's what you're suggesting...

Byron85

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Well, if that's what you're suggesting...

Do you know when the vote is actually?

rebel girl 15

I'd vote for the library - their funding was cut recently and there are a lot of Departments fighting the college authorities to keep the current online access to the journals as they are at the moment, according to one of our lecturers the access is the best he has experienced in any university in Ireland or the UK which going back to Donals point, is a basic service

Eliot Rosewater

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Erm, people who felt that the USI funding was more important?

I'd like to meet these people. 0 of which exist so far. Even the most harden hacks that I've met would be hard to choose USI over library funding. It's just silly, as I said.

Well yes - that's why my opening post explicitly says

I mentioned the poll, not the post - when you open the page, you see the title, and the poll. I'd also be surprised if people saw the post, then the poll, then decided to vote, or did they vote based on the information given to them in the question.

But that's just getting into stupid detail now.

In fairness, this isn't about paying more.

Not yet! :pac:

Anyways, enough sillyness for me.

Smurphette

I'm not going to debate this as I'm not a student anymore but the affiliation fee for USI is €5 per student which for UCC works out about €80k, not €150k.

There are additional charges for attending National Councils, Congress etc

If UCC SU disaffiliated from USI then the €5 would simply not be taken from student capitation as there would be no mandate for the university to do that - it simply wouldn't exist or else would disappear into the blackhole of UCC debt if the uni illegally decided to keep taking it out student money. You're setting up a false dichotomy with the question without looking at bigger pictures like national representation for UCC, supports for union officers and national campaigns in welfare, equality, lgbt etc

Byron85

Here's a break-down of the registration and capitation fee as of 2010 if anyone's interested.


Registration:

Students' Union €54.42
Clubs Executive €46.75
Societies Guild €37.40
Students' Centre Operational €41.14
Students' Centre Capital €117.06
Careers Service and Appointments Office €68.07
Accomodations Office €23.56
Chaplaincy €30.29
Disability Services €63.02
PE and Sports Facilities €94.43
Student Health and Counselling €118.18
Examination Expenses and Exams Office €142.59
Fees Office €31.04
Admissions Office €64.42
Student Records Office €39.55
Other - Space Costs associated with Student Services €152.40
HEA increases corresponding with net decrease in funding from the exchequer €373.99
TOTAL: €1,500.00

Capitation:

Mardyke Arena Operational (Membership Fee) €100
Mardyke Arena Capital €40
USI Contribution €5
Publications Contribution €2
Students' Union Common Room Contribution €3
TOTAL: €150.00

IHeartChemistry

If we had a 24 hour access room in college where we could study then I think that'd be great! In UL they have a main building which is open 24 hours a day so people can study all night if they please. I'd much prefer that than the USI membership. At the end of the day, we come to college to get a degree, not fight a bunch of wars with the Government.

Cuddlytroll

Apparently €25 can innoculate 250 children against malaria. That means that is we were to donate the €5 per student to charity we could save 800,000 childrens' lives! But wait, the Glucksman costs €400,000 per year to open, so if we redistributed that money we could save 4 million lives. That's almost the population of the country!!!

Yawn. Populist, poorly informed polls like this will never give a proper representation. The reality is that USI were heavily involved in the increase of the Student Assistance Fund by over €150,000 for UCC, which is double what we paid them. They single handedly passed the Student Support Act which will save hundreds of thousands of euros of students money with a more efficient grant system, they're in the process of reforming the deposit retention scheme which will again save hundreds of thousands of euros of students money by making it impossible for rogue landlords to retain deposits and they have thwarted government policy regarding fees for several years which has kept untold numbers of students in college. Bear in mind that this is only in the last twelve months alone.

The thing is, having been involved with one of the election teams in the last SU elections I went up to ye doing the annual anti-SU campaign and explained the merits of the fifth officer and why I felt ye were wrong to oppose it. After discussing this for a while I was told 'we could talk about this for the next six hours and I still wouldn't agree with you.' Given the attitude shown I am already resigned that this thread will throw up the usual knee-jerk reactionary stuff, same faces will come out for the canvassing and it'll all continue. Sure we'll see how it goes!

Eliot Rosewater

Dónal wrote: »

I'd like to meet these people. 0 of which exist so far. Even the most harden hacks that I've met would be hard to choose USI over library funding. It's just silly, as I said.

I don't see why you're being so dismissive. If a majority students think that the USI money would be better spent on longer library opening hours then the money should be spent on longer opening hours. There's nothing "silly" about popular consent.

Cuddlytroll wrote: »

Yawn. Populist, poorly informed polls like this will never give a proper representation.

I'd be interested in hearing about how a simple question can be poorly informed. It asks you to prioritise between the USI and extended library opening hours. Where is the misinformation?

Cuddlytroll wrote: »

The thing is, having been involved with one of the election teams in the last SU elections I went up to ye doing the annual anti-SU campaign and explained the merits of the fifth officer and why I felt ye were wrong to oppose it. After discussing this for a while I was told 'we could talk about this for the next six hours and I still wouldn't agree with you.' Given the attitude shown I am already resigned that this thread will throw up the usual knee-jerk reactionary stuff, same faces will come out for the canvassing and it'll all continue. Sure we'll see how it goes!

You initiate the "pro-SU"-"anti-SU" nonsense here and then complain that the thread will turn to that kind of silliness! Lol!

By the way, you could do better than label the fifth officer campaign an anti-SU one. In the end over 40% of those who voted voted no, which was a strong result given the culture of "automatic yes" in SU referenda in this university. And that excludes the 65%+ people who didn't vote, who are almost by definition "apathetic". If that quantity of people (40%) are truly "anti-SU", as you claim they are, then that is a damning indictment of the student body's satisfaction with the SU.

rebel girl 15

Leave the pro and anti SU agendas at the door please, keep it civil - I've no problem infracting or banning users for abusive language or posts that try to be deliberately provocative

Eliot Rosewater

Just to state it clearly, the 5th officer campaign wasn't anti-SU, and neither is this thread. Both things recognise that when it comes to money one has to have priorities. You can't have your cake and eat it too. In the 5th officer campaign, we felt that in the context of widespread budget cuts that expanding the SU wasn't the biggest priority. Here, I ask what people's priorities are. What I would like is for posters - like Cuddlytroll - who clearly have a knowledge of these kind of things to share their experiences and allow everyone to make an informed choice of priority. Erecting barricades is self-defeating.

Byron85

Cuddlytroll wrote: »

The thing is, having been involved with one of the election teams in the last SU elections I went up to ye doing the annual anti-SU campaign and explained the merits of the fifth officer and why I felt ye were wrong to oppose it. After discussing this for a while I was told 'we could talk about this for the next six hours and I still wouldn't agree with you.' Given the attitude shown I am already resigned that this thread will throw up the usual knee-jerk reactionary stuff, same faces will come out for the canvassing and it'll all continue. Sure we'll see how it goes!

Annual? Last year was the first time I ever did anything like what I did with Eliot.

When considering attitudes etc, it would be good to remember the various attitudes thrown at us, only two people, compared to the "might" of the S.U when it came to the issue of the fifth officer. If I personally seemed somewhat belligerent, although I don't think I was (I am blunt but there's a difference between bluntness and belligerence), it might have had something to do with the dismissive attitude shown towards us with our former S.U president saying that "Some people just like to cause hassle and/or say no". That was the general attitude we received.

When the S.U have a budget of a few hundred thousand euros to play around with, I am fully entitled to be critical of what they spend the money on.

As for our attitudes, i'm pretty sure I can speak for Elliot on this too, we're not in the least reactionary. We're critical of the workings of the S.U and in this case, the USI. If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to be skeptical of those in authority, then we're up for grabs.

ReacherCreature

No Atari Jaguar?

Eliot Rosewater

ReacherCreature wrote: »

No Atari Jaguar?

Isn't that what no opinion means?

ReacherCreature

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Isn't that what no opinion means?

It isn't Jaguar! Boards rule. Kidding.

I'm inclined to vote library, primarily because I love the place and I don't want to see it affected. Education centers should be bulletproof.

IHeartChemistry

I can totally see this turning into a SU vs the rest of UCC that dont engage with the SU debate :rolleyes: Education and money are the two important factors with regards to college. The USI payment seems a bit mental and even if it was split in half, giving the other half to longer library hours then I think it'd be a good half way point. Everybody wins.

rebel girl 15

One and only warning: Anyone who starts an SU v rest of UCC thing will be banned for a week. I don't want any more mentions of the UCC SU as I can see it going down that road as well - keep the thread on topic or it will be locked

IHeartChemistry

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

One and only warning: Anyone who starts that will be banned for a week. I don't want any more mentions of the UCC SU as I can see it going down that road as well - keep the thread on topic or it will be locked

Misunderstanding :P

rebel girl 15

IHeartChemistry wrote: »

I wasn't starting anything. I just made the point from another poster who was kicking a fuss up implying I don't want it going down that road because we have enough of those thread bashings going on already. Apologies.

Don't apologise - sorry my post didn't make it clear - the warning is for anyone posting on the thread, as you made an extremely valid point about this going down the SU road, its not you starting anything

I'll edit out your part of the post - apologies!

IHeartChemistry

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Don't apologise - sorry my post didn't make it clear - the warning is for anyone posting on the thread, as you made an extremely valid point about this going down the SU road, its not you starting anything

I'll edit out your part of the post - apologies!

Tis ok! No need to say sorry!

insinkerator

Byron85: Where did you get that information on the breakdown? I'm not questioning you or anything, just curious?

Byron85

insinkerator wrote: »

Byron85: Where did you get that information on the breakdown? I'm not questioning you or anything, just curious?

The S.U published it in The Express and online at the time.

Richard Cranium

I don't see the benefit of USI membership myself. I'd rather the money went somewhere else.

maglite

http://www.thejournal.ie/students-occupy-department-of-jobs-292332-Nov2011/


Money well spent imho.

Parry_Repost

I'd rather see my money go elsewhere especially considering I would get the benefits of the library; Whilst the USI is a union I dont have a choice but to join, whether I disagree or agree with their message. Forcing representation is a concern for me, whilst everyone or at least those who want to be educated get benefits through library services.

raah!

Regardless of whether or not there is a library/USI dichotomy, I do not feel I am represented by them and would rather the money be spent somewhere which actually has something to do with education and not with a bunch of people making lolz signs for various ill conceived protests.

Alternatively, we could keep the money.

Patriciamc93

Its not a fair question....... of course everybody wants extended hours. But it fees go up next year then well people will probably have to try and get a part time job and won't be able to use the library! The USI is fighting on behalf of students.

invinciblePRSTV

Awful poll design, totally biased towards one outcome and as such should be completely disregarded like a Sindo poll. May as well have been which would you rather: cute puppies or the evil USI ffs.

Byron85

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Awful poll design, totally biased towards one outcome and as such should be completely disregarded like a Sindo poll. May as well have been which would you rather: cute puppies or the evil USI ffs.

How would you have posed the questions? I'm curious as personally I would like a proper survey to be done.

Eliot Rosewater

Byron85 wrote: »

How would you have posed the questions? I'm curious as personally I would like a proper survey to be done.

His problem with the poll design is that I made it.

It's the third time the poll has been described as "misinformed" or otherwise unfair. It's a pretty basic question, with no room for misinformation. If I had to guess, I'd say people are annoyed that the USI is being compared in such a direct quantifiable fashion which doesn't leave any space for poor defences.

Cuddlytroll

Try 'is USI membership worth a €5 levy paid by about 60% of students'. If you really wanted 'should we add an extra €5 levy on all students to add to library funding'. It should be seen as standalone you phrased it to appear that the levy was an obstacle to library funding.

It's also biased in that everyone can quantify what additional library funding could amount to but there is less knowledge about the hard work done by USI. The poll should give a comprehensive breakdown of the benefits of USI membership to appear non biased. Also it's being orchestrated by people who have a tendency to try to make grand sweeping statements about the expenditure of a student organisation without fully engaging with the details.

pow wow

Cuddlytroll wrote: »

Yawn. Populist, poorly informed polls like this will never give a proper representation.

Was the poll intended to be properly representative or the results binding? Populism aside it's based on a specific set of circumstances which no-one said were actually true (i.e. scrap the USI subs and the library will get all the money). It's an 'if' question in context of the OP's post.

Out of interest is there much publicity or campaigning as such by whoever may be for/against when the vote comes around?

invinciblePRSTV

Byron85 wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Awful poll design, totally biased towards one outcome and as such should be completely disregarded like a Sindo poll. May as well have been which would you rather: cute puppies or the evil USI ffs.

How would you have posed the questions? I'm curious as personally I would like a proper survey to be done.

I would not have presented such loaded options as choices. it is nonsense to lump 2 issues - USI Fees and Lib opening hours - together when they don't have any direct relevance to each other unless you're engaging in episodes of whatiffery and whataboutery.

In addition it's quite clear the design and language of the questions is done in such a way as to produce a one sided result. In turn its easy to tell from the Qs where the author's sympathies lie thus completely ruining any impartiality or credibility the poll may have.

invinciblePRSTV

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Byron85 wrote: »

How would you have posed the questions? I'm curious as personally I would like a proper survey to be done.

His problem with the poll design is that I made it.

believe it or not its not always about you Rosewater *on phone so you'll have to imagine the rolleyes smiley here*

Byron85

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I would not have presented such loaded options as choices. it is nonsense to lump 2 issues - USI Fees and Lib opening hours - together when they don't have any direct relevance to each other unless you're engaging in episodes of whatiffery and whataboutery.

In addition it's quite clear the design and language of the questions is done in such a way as to produce a one sided result. In turn its easy to tell from the Qs where the author's sympathies lie thus completely ruining any impartiality or credibility the poll may have.

Well another poll can be started then instead.

Do you support the payment of €150,000 per annum to the USI?

Yes or no.

Problem solved.

samf

Byron85 wrote: »

Well another poll can be started then instead.

Do you support the payment of €150,000 per annum to the USI?

Yes or no.

Problem solved.

Not a student anymore so dont particularly care either way, but just wondering where you're getting the figure of 150K from, is ~20k students * €5 not equal to 100K?

Where's the extra 50K coming from?

Byron85

samf wrote: »

Not a student anymore so dont particularly care either way, but just wondering where you're getting the figure of 150K from, is ~20k students * €5 not equal to 100K?

Where's the extra 50K coming from?

As Eliot posted at the start:

USI membership costs UCC about €150,000 a year, if I recall correctly. There's a €100,000 lump sum payment and then all students who pay the registration fee pay €5.

Although, I actually think the figures above are slightly off. The €5 contribution comes from the capitation fee which everyone pays. UCC has roughly 20,000 students so that's exactly €100,000. I don't know where the other €50,000 comes from. Maybe that's the lump sum?

samf

But as Smurphette also posted on page one:

I'm not going to debate this as I'm not a student anymore but the affiliation fee for USI is €5 per student which for UCC works out about €80k, not €150k.

So if you're throwing figures around, €80k is most likely the more accurate one.

Byron85

samf wrote: »

But as Smurphette also posted on page one:

So if you're throwing figures around, €80k is most likely the more accurate one.

Actually, just found some figures. For the 2010/2011 academic year, the student population was 18,820. That means the contribution the USI got was €94,100.

The student population has increased though afaik?

samf

That assumes all students pay it though, not sure if postgrad/int students do - either way its still 55K+ off the original figure which is the only point I wanted to make. As for the benefits of USI - anyone tried emailing them and asking them?

Byron85

samf wrote: »

That assumes all students pay it though, not sure if postgrad/int students do - either way its still 55K+ off the original figure which is the only point I wanted to make. As for the benefits of USI - anyone tried emailing them and asking them?

The €5 comes from the capitation fee and everyone pays that as far as I know. I also don't know where the other €50,000 comes from but i'll look into it.

Eliot Rosewater

The figures could be totally off. I was trying to remember off-hand. I thought the USI got €5 from each reg. paying student and a lump sum from the university. If it's just the €5 then the figure is drastically smaller. samf is correct to point out that not all students pay the reg. fee; lots of people on grants and other supports are exempted from it.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I would not have presented such loaded options as choices. it is nonsense to lump 2 issues - USI Fees and Lib opening hours - together when they don't have any direct relevance to each other unless you're engaging in episodes of whatiffery and whataboutery.

We have a certain amount of money to spend. We could spend it on the USI or we could spend it on the library. There's a whole branch of social science - it's called "economics" - that is concerned with these kinds of optimisation questions. Perhaps you should email a few Nobel laureates and tell them their field is all about irrelevant quantities.

Byron85

People are getting confused between the registration fee and the capitation fee. Now, not everyone pays the registration fee, as dictated by their income/grant status; people like me for instance who receives a grant and has his registration fee paid for him.

However, everyone pays the capitation fee regardless of whether or not they have their fees paid for them by the government. I pay the capitation fee for example.

The €5 for the USI is taken from the capitation fee, not the registration fee, therefore, everyone pays the USI fee.

Cuddlytroll

Byron85 wrote: »

People are getting confused between the registration fee and the capitation fee. Now, not everyone pays the registration fee, as dictated by their income/grant status; people like me for instance who receives a grant and has his registration fee paid for him.

However, everyone pays the capitation fee regardless of whether or not they have their fees paid for them by the government. I pay the capitation fee for example.

The €5 for the USI is taken from the capitation fee, not the registration fee, therefore, everyone pays the USI fee.

Not everyone pays the capitation fee either. I remember in 09/10 I heard the figure was 11500 paying so allowing for increases in student numbers I'd say you're talking about 80k-90k. The idea of a lump sum paid by the university is nonsense.

It's also important to remember that it's paid by levy. If you remove it there's no way in hell you'd reinstate it to go to the library, if you did UCC would just cut their own finding to the library by the same amount. The whole argument is a little immaterial tbh.

IHeartChemistry

Cuddlytroll wrote: »

Not everyone pays the capitation fee either. I remember in 09/10 I heard the figure was 11500 paying so allowing for increases in student numbers I'd say you're talking about 80k-90k. The idea of a lump sum paid by the university is nonsense.

It's also important to remember that it's paid by levy. If you remove it there's no way in hell you'd reinstate it to go to the library, if you did UCC would just cut their own finding to the library by the same amount. The whole argument is a little immaterial tbh.

Can I ask where you got those figures from? The capitation fee figures!