The North's 1st Minister calls for an end to school segragation.

LordSutch

Northern Ireland's 1st Minister Peter Robinson has called for an end to segregated schools. Mr Robinson said "The education of Protestant and Catholics in separate schools in Northern Ireland is a benign form of apartheid, Stormont's First Minister said last night" > http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/peter-robinson-calls-for-end-to-school-segregation-14978235.html

Sound slike an interesting idea, but how would it work (large scale) here in the Republic? Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Methodist, & Presbyterian children all educated together? Surely there would be many hurdles to jump before it could happen large scale?

Sonics2k

Separation of Church(s) and State is certainly an important issue, and one most people support now.

As an example, my school in Sydney was very much a multi-national school, so it had students of all backgrounds, from Greek Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Roman Catholic and so on, and so the Education service was willing to provide teachers to come to the schools and were willing to teach each subject, if a student and parent agreed to it.

My school in Brisbane did not teach any Religious studies however, the system there was set around the basis of If you wish to teach your child about Religion, you can do so as a parent or at your Church itself.

In these schools I met and made friends with people of all backgrounds, and so it opened my eyes to much more than just the Christian teachings I received here, but mostly, it taught me that people are the same, no matter the religion.

The Quadratic Equation

LordSutch wrote: »

Northern Ireland's 1st Minister Peter Robinson has called for an end to segregated schools. Mr Robinson said "The education of Protestant and Catholics in separate schools in Northern Ireland is a benign form of apartheid, Stormont's First Minister said last night" > http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/peter-robinson-calls-for-end-to-school-segregation-14978235.html

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

Mike 1972

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish,

Of course it is.

Just so long as theyre willing to pay for it.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme.

How so ?

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

I believe recently theyve even started letting the wimmen vote............

tommy2bad

Evangelical Protestants will not accept this back door entrance of Secularism,

Posted as a response to the linked article by RevMervynCotton.

and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies

Posted by TQE
Strange bedfellows indeed.

Manach

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Of course it is.

Just so long as theyre willing to pay for it.

As per our current consitution which emphasises the duty of parents in education, they already are paying as taxpayers.

irishh_bob

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

while the above is all true , this statement from peter robinson does sound progressive and forward thinking

Mike 1972

Manach wrote: »

As per our current consitution.

The story under discussion relates to Northern Ireland.

Unless Ive missed some big story on todays news NI is still part of the United Kingdom.

Manach wrote: »

they already are paying as taxpayers.

Taxes cover education not religious indoctrination.

The Quadratic Equation

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Of course it is.

Just so long as theyre willing to pay for it.

Catholic taxpayers pay the same taxes as non Catholics.
Catholic schools are entitled to the same funding as any other denomination.

tommy2bad

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Catholic taxpayers pay the same taxes as non Catholics.
Catholic schools are entitled to the same funding as any other denomination.

Thats kinda Robinsons point though, duplication isn't financially efficient.
The same education could be given for less cost if both systems were amalgamated into one. Probably with faith schools as a fee paying option.

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

Thats kinda Robinsons point though, duplication isn't financially efficient.
The same education could be given for less cost if both systems were amalgamated into one. Probably with faith schools as a fee paying option.

The only saving would be if supersized one size fits all schools were created, instead of having small local schools. I'm not so sure such schools offer a better education, and Catholic owned schools are rightly entitled to the same funding as any other denomination or philosophy.

passarellaie

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Catholic taxpayers pay the same taxes as non Catholics.
Catholic schools are entitled to the same funding as any other denomination.

Of course.I think that we have had so much flack from the humanists and anti Catholics that it is time that Catholic taxpayers should only pay for Catholic schools and let the others have whatever they want.The DUP of course are of the opinion that Germany are now the colonizers of the republic.Surely now that Luthers country is in charge they will rush to join us

tommy2bad

I'm not so sure such schools offer a better education, and Catholic owned schools are rightly entitled to the same funding as any other denomination or philosophy.

i.e. none.
This is where it gets complicated.
If we have a state education system should it include or exclude subjects that are particular to some and not others. If we start down the road of exclusion then it must be excluded from all schools, no faith based schools at all fee paying or not.
If we want to include then how to do it, faith being faith it kinda insists on exclusion.
The problem with fee paying is it makes a faith based education an income based choice.
So leave it out and let the churches provide it. I know thats secularist but thats the thing about secularism, its fair.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

Which is why the first people do call for intergrated schooling was the Republican movement? :rolleyes:

http://irishconflict.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=74022924

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

So leave it out and let the churches provide it. I know thats secularist but thats the thing about secularism, its fair.

True secularism is not making a distinction between different beliefs. If non faith schools are entitled to funding then faith schools are as well too. Anything else is state atheism dressed up.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Which is why the first people do call for intergrated schooling was the Republican movement? :rolleyes:

http://irishconflict.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=74022924

Ah yes, confusing marxist republicans with Catholics again, a typical mistake.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

You know next to nothing about the north and as you have condemned the armed struggle I find your whinging about evil northern Prods whenever you can get the chance annoying. People were NEVER denied one man, one vote on a religious basis- it was along CLASS not RELIGIOUS lines. Human flith such as yourself would have had the vote.

Next- RC and Free P schools have to be destroyed if we are to have a future without "Peace" walls in the north. Just as in the Mc Cann case Rome cares only for her lust for power rather than the good of people in the six counties.

tommy2bad

State atheism? I'm all for it, the alternative being a theocracy like for instance Saudi.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Ah yes, confusing marxist republicans with Catholics again, a typical mistake.

At the time that photo was taken the Officials were the largest part of the Republican movement- I mentioned Republicans NOT Catholics.

Unionists were happy with the divide being reinforced. What Peter Robinson is doing is trying to break the DUP away from being a Free P controlled party, and he is using the schools as a round about way to do it...But a bigot like you wouldnt be able to understand such things.

PatricaMcKay2

tommy2bad wrote: »

Thats kinda Robinsons point though, duplication isn't financially efficient.
The same education could be given for less cost if both systems were amalgamated into one. Probably with faith schools as a fee paying option.

We are talking about the north.

Leave RE to Sunday school and the family.

Faith schools should not be allowed in that society.

tommy2bad

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

We are talking about the north.

Leave RE to Sunday school and the family.

Faith schools should not be allowed in that society.

See my other post.
I was just trying to think how it 'would' rather than 'should' pan out.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

You know next to nothing about the north and as you have condemned the armed struggle I find your whinging about evil northern Prods whenever you can get the chance annoying. People were NEVER denied one man, one vote on a religious basis- it was along CLASS not RELIGIOUS lines. Human flith such as yourself would have had the vote.

Next- RC and Free P schools have to be destroyed if we are to have a future without "Peace" walls in the north. Just as in the Mc Cann case Rome cares only for her lust for power rather than the good of people in the six counties.

Class ? LOL Oh is that why Catholics, including people from my own famaily, were discrimated against when it came to social housing and jobs ?

I was born and bred in the six counties, and although there are many decent and non sectarian people there, you've remined me why I'm so glad I don't have to live in that bigotted little sectarian backwater any more.

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

State atheism? I'm all for it, the alternative being a theocracy like for instance Saudi.

If you like state atheism, the best example in Europe was Albania in the 70's. It didn't work out too well for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

Article 37 of the Albanian Constitution of 1976 stipulated, "The State recognizes no religion, and supports atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people." and the penal code of 1977 imposed prison sentences of three to ten years for "religious propaganda and the production, distribution, or storage of religious literature." Parents were afraid to pass on their faith, for fear that their children would tell others. Officials tried to entrap practicing Christians and Muslims during religious fasts, such as Lent and Ramadan, by distributing dairy products and other forbidden foods in school and at work, and then publicly denouncing those who refused the food, and clergy who conducted secret services were incarcerated. Catholic priest Shtjefen Kurti, had been executed for secretly baptizing a child in Shkodër in 1972

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Class ? LOL Oh is that why Catholics, including people from my own famaily, were discrimated against when it came to social housing and jobs ?
.

I thought you were against Marxist Republicanism?

The Protestants who lived in some of the worst housing conditions in Europe had such a lovely time. Lets not forget the fact that Nationalist controlled councils also discriminated. You are the mirror image of the DUP.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I thought you were against Marxist Republicanism?

And since when did "human filth" like me have to be Marxist Republicans to object to discrimination ?

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Class ? LOL .

Yes CLASS.

There were never any laws saying that Catholics couldnt vote in local elections.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

And since when did "human filth" like me have to be Marxist Republicans to object to discrimination ?

You entirely missed the point.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Yes CLASS.

There were never any laws saying that Catholics couldnt vote in local elections.

You're some revisionist and sophist, its shocking really, I thought the six counties had moved on.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/index.html CAIN - University of Ulster

Two categories of voters were formed to ensure Protestant dominance at the polls: (1) the 'ratepayers', primary occupiers of a household as either tenants or owners, and (2) persons who owned commercial property valued at £10 or more per year. As only two people per house were allowed to vote, the ratepayer category effectively excluded lodgers or adult children living at home. Both lodgers and adult children living at home tended to be Catholics due to their lower overall economic status and larger families; thus, Catholic franchise was restricted. People in the second category, that is, owners of commercial property, were allowed to nominate special voters for each £10 of value of their property, up to a maximum of six voters (Darby 1976, 50). Since over 90 per cent of the commercial property in Northern Ireland was Protestant owned, this provision expanded their voting franchise and, along with the ratepayer category, extended Unionist control over the ballot box and the government.

These types of discrimination were so blatant that the Cameron Commission investigation of 1968 issued a report critical of the local electoral system. The Commission reported that in Derry, while Catholics made up over 60 per cent of the electorate, due to the districting system, they won only 40 per cent of the County Borough seats (Rowthorn and Wayne 1988, 30). This is only one example among many in which the gerrymandering of districts produced Unionist majorities on local councils in communities that were predominantly Catholic.

Mike 1972

tommy2bad wrote: »

State atheism? I'm all for it, the alternative being a theocracy like for instance Saudi.

State secularism and State atheism are not necessarily the same thing.

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

WFaith schools should not be allowed in that society.

Faith schools should not get public funds in ANY society.

But if people are prepared to pay for it themselves then who are you or I to stop them ?

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I thought you were against Marxist Republicanism?

The Protestants who lived in some of the worst housing conditions in Europe had such a lovely time. Lets not forget the fact that Nationalist controlled councils also discriminated. You are the mirror image of the DUP.

It is one of the biggest myths that only Roman Catholics had discrimination and bad housing all those years ago. It isn't true.

Tomk1

LordSutch wrote: »

but how would it work (large scale) here in the Republic? Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Methodist, & Presbyterian children all educated together?

... as roman catholics in complete volation of the UN Human rights convention for freedom of beliefs. Our Vatican Republic is hardly a specimen of impartial inclusive education.

Manach

In which section of the UN Human rights convention for freedom of beliefs?

Sonics2k

Manach wrote: »

In which section of the UN Human rights convention for freedom of beliefs?

Article 2

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Manach

Thanks for the link. However I fail to see how this is broken in Ireland. It does not mention explictily the requirement to that all children be educated together.
It does not give any right to the State to impose uniformity of opinion that is the hallmark of centralised education. It is not law in Ireland, as the the constitution would superceed this - which has the right for Parents to create schools for children of whatever type they want provided they meet the required standards.

tommy2bad

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

If you like state atheism, the best example in Europe was Albania in the 70's. It didn't work out too well for them.

So when you say state atheism you mean atheism as the religion of the state.
And when I use atheism I mean that the state should have no religion. People are entitle to whatever faith they choose but the state has no duty to provide for them. Nor has it the right to oppose them unless it interferes with their rights as citizens of that state.
It gets hard to discuss things here as terms like atheism and secularism get used and confused and are loaded words to some while neutral to others.
If you say that the state should support all faiths equally then to what extent should that support go?
Should it build a catholic, a protestant, a Muslim , a Baha'i, and a non religious school. Should it let the schools be built by the communities that want them with funding from the state? How much say in the running of the schools should the state have?
Wouldn't it be easier to just let the state run the schools and the communities teach the faith.

Sonics2k

Let's not turn this into a Catholic vs Protestant thread, or even a thread about the war in the North.

It's not about State Atheism, it's about the separation of Church and State, eg that children should receive a school education from non-religious department, and children of numerous backgrounds can grow up together, in equality, instead of being separated so much (as is the case in the North).

From a Republic of Ireland point of view, I think the majority of the population would be happier to have their children in a multi-national denomination school where they either learn about a lot of Religions, or none at all.

If however, a parent wishes their child to be raised under a certain Religion, then there should absolutely be the schools to do so, or they can of course simple teach them about Religion at home/Church of course. However, the State should not fund Religious schools in Ireland, or at least not as much as State schools themselves.

The Quadratic Equation

Sonics2k wrote: »

Let's not turn this into a Catholic vs Protestant thread, or even a thread about the war in the North.

It's not about State Atheism, it's about the separation of Church and State, eg that children should receive a school education from non-religious department, and children of numerous backgrounds can grow up together, in equality, instead of being separated so much (as is the case in the North).

From a Republic of Ireland point of view, I think the majority of the population would be happier to have their children in a multi-national denomination school where they either learn about a lot of Religions, or none at all.

If however, a parent wishes their child to be raised under a certain Religion, then there should absolutely be the schools to do so, or they can of course simple teach them about Religion at home/Church of course. However, the State should not fund Religious schools in Ireland, or at least not as much as State schools themselves.

In other words the state should only fund your preferred non denominational belief/philosophy, and remove the entitlement to funding from other philosophies. :rolleyes:

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

Wouldn't it be easier to just let the state run the schools ?

Personally I would not let the state (Ireland or NI) look after my cat, never mind my childs education. By all means get together with like minded parents, set up and run your own non denominational schools or whatever ye prefer, with the same funding anyone else is entitled to, but if you place any value in your child, never ever leave them, and their education, in the states hands.

tommy2bad

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Personally I would not let the state (Ireland or NI) look after my cat, never mind my childs education. By all means get together with like minded parents, set up and run your own non denominational schools or whatever ye prefer, with the same funding anyone else is entitled to, but if you place any value in your child, never ever leave them, and their education, in the states hands.

Yeah cos it worked out so well in the churches hands.

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

Yeah cos it worked out so well in the churches hands.

My childrens school is run by a board of management consisting of 12 Catholic parents and one member of the local Clergy. It works very well indeed thanks, as do thousands of other Catholic/Prodestant etc. schools. You can leave your kids, and their educational well being in the hands of the state if you want, I for one won't be.

wolfsbane

LordSutch wrote: »

Northern Ireland's 1st Minister Peter Robinson has called for an end to segregated schools. Mr Robinson said "The education of Protestant and Catholics in separate schools in Northern Ireland is a benign form of apartheid, Stormont's First Minister said last night" > http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/peter-robinson-calls-for-end-to-school-segregation-14978235.html

Sound slike an interesting idea, but how would it work (large scale) here in the Republic? Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Methodist, & Presbyterian children all educated together? Surely there would be many hurdles to jump before it could happen large scale?

Separate education has its problems - the reinforcing of ethnic divisions in N.I., for example. But enforced integrated education has its own problems - the corruption or elimination of a particular religious ethos of children's education.

Will an integrated school be able to respect the differences that exist in society, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all? Can it hold together Catholic/ Protestant/Jewish/Muslim views of society? Will it teach them all, suppress all or come up with their own version? Can it hold together Nationalist/Unionist views of our history, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all?



*******************************************************************
Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

Sonics2k

wolfsbane wrote: »

Separate education has its problems - the reinforcing of ethnic divisions in N.I., for example. But enforced integrated education has its own problems - the corruption or elimination of a particular religious ethos of children's education.

Will an integrated school be able to respect the differences that exist in society, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all? Can it hold together Catholic/ Protestant/Jewish/Muslim views of society? Will it teach them all, suppress all or come up with their own version? Can it hold together Nationalist/Unionist views of our history, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all?

From my own first hand experiences, as I said in a previous post, my schools handled the question of teaching religion very well.

The best part of state education without religious influence is that is would be non-biased. As expected they will teach our children to read, do maths, understand science, do P.E., geography, history and so on.
Everyone I knew was proud of their own culture, religion and so on, and it also made them feel more of an individual as person, but also widely accepted and friends with people of all backgrounds.
My "clique" of friends at the time was made up a Palestinian, a Jew, two Lebanese guys, a few Tongans and four Vietnamese guys.
We were all close friends, and still are if I'm completely honest and found that, despite minor cultural differences, we were all Final Fantasy VII nerds at heart :P

Nothing really changes, except the school does not teach religion and leaves it too the parents to educate on religious matters, which frankly is better anyway.

After all, some Catholics are fine with say the use of contraception, but a Church education would teach the child not to use it and not have intercourse until married.
The "Basic" educations are quite simplistic to teach however, 2+2 will always = 4, and Shakespeare will always be the man who wrote Romeo and Juliet.

@TQE
It seems you missed my last sentence, I said an option would also be to partially fund Religious schools, but not as much as State schools.
Please excuse me for not wanting to separate people based on something as minor as whose God is real and who's isn't.

tommy2bad

wolfsbane wrote: »

Separate education has its problems - the reinforcing of ethnic divisions in N.I., for example. But enforced integrated education has its own problems - the corruption or elimination of a particular religious ethos of children's education.
This old chestnut, somebody tell me what's a ethos when it's at home
Will an integrated school be able to respect the differences that exist in society, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all?
Hopefully respect the differences worth respect and eliminate the bigotry
Can it hold together Catholic/ Protestant/Jewish/Muslim views of society?
Are they so different?
Will it teach them all, suppress all or come up with their own version? Can it hold together Nationalist/Unionist views of our history, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all?
Could do that or it could teach both


*******************************************************************
Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

I don't understand that objection? Are you saying that the divisions are so deep that their insurmountable or that the divisions are somehow natural and so cant be overcome.
Or are you saying that divergent views cant respect each other.Yes I know we dont have many examples of it but to just give up. Is that a better option?
The issue is money, theirs not enough of it so savings need to be made. Running parallel educational systems is financialy stupid and adds to divisions in an already devided socity. Change things and we save money and bring people together.
Yet here on this board the reaction from some has been the usual partisan faith against secularism nonsense.

wolfsbane

Sonics2k wrote: »

From my own first hand experiences, as I said in a previous post, my schools handled the question of teaching religion very well.

The best part of state education without religious influence is that is would be non-biased. As expected they will teach our children to read, do maths, understand science, do P.E., geography, history and so on.
Everyone I knew was proud of their own culture, religion and so on, and it also made them feel more of an individual as person, but also widely accepted and friends with people of all backgrounds.
My "clique" of friends at the time was made up a Palestinian, a Jew, two Lebanese guys, a few Tongans and four Vietnamese guys.
We were all close friends, and still are if I'm completely honest and found that, despite minor cultural differences, we were all Final Fantasy VII nerds at heart :P

Nothing really changes, except the school does not teach religion and leaves it too the parents to educate on religious matters, which frankly is better anyway.

After all, some Catholics are fine with say the use of contraception, but a Church education would teach the child not to use it and not have intercourse until married.
The "Basic" educations are quite simplistic to teach however, 2+2 will always = 4, and Shakespeare will always be the man who wrote Romeo and Juliet.

@TQE
It seems you missed my last sentence, I said an option would also be to partially fund Religious schools, but not as much as State schools.
Please excuse me for not wanting to separate people based on something as minor as whose God is real and who's isn't.

Yes, the basics of education can be uncontroversial, and most of it if kept simple.

But did you not have any disputed matters arising? What was taught about history? Was the history of Israel and of the Arabs ignored? Of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc? Of the British peoples? Of the colonization of America, Africa, etc? Of slavery? Racism?

What did you hear about sex? What moral guidance accompanied it?

***********************************************************************
Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

soterpisc

A common education can only work in Northern Ireland if Catholics and Protestants sit down and agree what is to be taught and what is not to be taught.

Since both sides have very strong religious views its not going to be easy..

How to you teach unbiased history.. Was Cornwell Right..... Landing thousands of scots in Ireland ? Our land .... Those planters. etc...etc.. Robinson is trying to do the exact same thing Sinn Fein wants to do..

Main thing .. Stability and peace should not be lost. Putting guns to peoples heads never solved anything.

At the end of the day more units us culturally than separates us. The Queen was a good example of how we should build bridges.

Sonics2k

At the time I was living in Australia (which actually has a very good Education system a lot of countries are moving towards).

So in terms of History we learnt about the like of Captain Cook, the ANZACS (Australia New Zealand Air Corps) from WW2 and other Australian history, the founding of Canberra and so on.
Remember it's very typical for a country to teach it's own history over that of other countries, Ireland is of course a good example of this. Most of the History taught here is Irish and the World Wars. In school we don't learn a great deal about slavery across Europe and the U.S. or various other "interesting" aspects of history.

Sex Education was an opt in class, so a Student could choose to do the class if they wished. During which they'd be taught about how child birth occurs, the dangers of STD's, and whilst they didn't entirely -discourage- pre-marital sex, they advised about the possible dangers (STD's/Pregnancy) that can happen from it.

Now I can't be 100% sure on this part, but I have a vague memory of the Dept of Education providing weekend classes on the history of various other areas, but I can't be positive on that point. My apologies.

wolfsbane

tommy2bad said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Separate education has its problems - the reinforcing of ethnic divisions in N.I., for example. But enforced integrated education has its own problems - the corruption or elimination of a particular religious ethos of children's education.
This old chestnut, somebody tell me what's a ethos when it's at home

Ethos ( /ˈiːθɒs/ or /ˈiːθoʊs/) is a Greek word meaning "character" that is used to describe the guiding beliefs or ideals that characterize a community, nation, or ideology.

Will an integrated school be able to respect the differences that exist in society, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all?
Hopefully respect the differences worth respect and eliminate the bigotry

If they decide what is worthy and what is bigotry.

Can it hold together Catholic/ Protestant/Jewish/Muslim views of society?
Are they so different?

They can be widely different, depending on how seriously one takes one's religion and its teachings. Islam's view of how society should progress is not that of Christianity nor of Judaism. Catholicism has a different ideas of its role in society than has most of Protestantism.

Will it teach them all, suppress all or come up with their own version? Can it hold together Nationalist/Unionist views of our history, or will it have to take sides or suppress them all?
Could do that or it could teach both

Yes, it could - but it is a big ask.

I don't understand that objection? Are you saying that the divisions are so deep that their insurmountable or that the divisions are somehow natural and so cant be overcome.

I'm saying the divisions can be so controversial that great efforts would be needed to avoid taking sides.

Or are you saying that divergent views cant respect each other.Yes I know we dont have many examples of it but to just give up. Is that a better option?

It would be a better option to failing to be even-handed. Yet if the teaching can ensure toleration of difference and impartial explanation of each side, that would be best. But can it be done?

The issue is money, theirs not enough of it so savings need to be made. Running parallel educational systems is financialy stupid and adds to divisions in an already devided socity. Change things and we save money and bring people together.

Maybe giving each child an education voucher and allowing market forces to encourage big efforts at toleration of difference and impartial explanation of each side would be an answer. If one wants a ethnically and/or religiously pure education system, one might have to travel a bit. If one can tolerate impartial treatment of ethnicity and religion, one might have a bigger choice. And if one doesn't care, the choice will be maximum.

Yet here on this board the reaction from some has been the usual partisan faith against secularism nonsense.

Unfortunately secularism has a long record of anti-religion, rather than religious toleration.

An idea might be to house all types in the one campus, and in the same classes where non-disputed subjects are taught. With a big enough intake, such a school could have several classes on disputed subjects, each catering for specific needs. Sexually segregated classes for Muslims, for example.

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Ephesians 6:4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

tommy2bad

An idea might be to house all types in the one campus, and in the same classes where non-disputed subjects are taught. With a big enough intake, such a school could have several classes on disputed subjects, each catering for specific needs.

Weirdly I was saying a similar thing in the car on Friday as we negotiated the school pickup traffic. A single big campus with all the schools surrounding it sharing the sports facilities, library and such like.

Sexually segregated classes for Muslims, for example.

How is this a problem we have sexually segregated schools for anyone who wants it as it is.

Richard

A good history teacher will not teach whether Cromwell was right or wrong, nor will they teach whether the Easter Rising was right or wrong. They will explain the facts and various opinions of the time and explain the various interpretations that modern historians put on these.

soterpisc wrote: »

A common education can only work in Northern Ireland if Catholics and Protestants sit down and agree what is to be taught and what is not to be taught.

Since both sides have very strong religious views its not going to be easy..

How to you teach unbiased history.. Was Cornwell Right..... Landing thousands of scots in Ireland ? Our land .... Those planters. etc...etc.. Robinson is trying to do the exact same thing Sinn Fein wants to do..

Main thing .. Stability and peace should not be lost. Putting guns to peoples heads never solved anything.

At the end of the day more units us culturally than separates us. The Queen was a good example of how we should build bridges.

Mike 1972

A lot of people dont seem to understand the difference between having a constitutional right to educate their kids in the manner they choose and having the state pay for them to do so.

tommy2bad wrote: »

How is this a problem we have sexually segregated schools for anyone who wants it as it is.

Something which shouldnt be funded by the state either TBH

lmaopml

I'm a fan of freedom of choice. I think if a school has an 'ethos' than it should be transparent and of course functional too, in the sense that it follows the curriculum set by the Dept. of Education strictly.

If there are schools with an ethos, or 'faith schools' and parents see the value in them; the children aren't lagging behind numerically or linguistically, than fine, no problem imo...

In saying that, I also believe every teacher should be paid by the Dept. just as every free person pays their taxes to pay said teachers.

I think the ET model is good too - perhaps the balance is the problem? Actually, yes, I think that is a problem for some..

As far as I know, it's the parents and would be teachers that research an area, gather together and basically demand the State to recognise the need to fund the school, supply and pay it's teachers. I don't think it should be this way though - the State ( with our lack of money ) didn't do a good job over the boom period in the sense that everything is being clawed back right now! Class sizes are going 'up' - special needs assistants are being withdrawn.....( This is my bugbear, it sickens me )

I think it's important though that when funds are available (??) that some equanimity should be par for the course when speaking about education....one size apparently doesn't fit all - and it shouldn't be 'made' to do so either.