The North's 1st Minister calls for an end to school segragation.

LordSutch

Northern Ireland's 1st Minister Peter Robinson has called for an end to segregated schools. Mr Robinson said "The education of Protestant and Catholics in separate schools in Northern Ireland is a benign form of apartheid, Stormont's First Minister said last night" > http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/peter-robinson-calls-for-end-to-school-segregation-14978235.html

Sound slike an interesting idea, but how would it work (large scale) here in the Republic? Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Methodist, & Presbyterian children all educated together? Surely there would be many hurdles to jump before it could happen large scale?

Sonics2k

Separation of Church(s) and State is certainly an important issue, and one most people support now.

As an example, my school in Sydney was very much a multi-national school, so it had students of all backgrounds, from Greek Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Roman Catholic and so on, and so the Education service was willing to provide teachers to come to the schools and were willing to teach each subject, if a student and parent agreed to it.

My school in Brisbane did not teach any Religious studies however, the system there was set around the basis of If you wish to teach your child about Religion, you can do so as a parent or at your Church itself.

In these schools I met and made friends with people of all backgrounds, and so it opened my eyes to much more than just the Christian teachings I received here, but mostly, it taught me that people are the same, no matter the religion.

The Quadratic Equation

LordSutch wrote: »

Northern Ireland's 1st Minister Peter Robinson has called for an end to segregated schools. Mr Robinson said "The education of Protestant and Catholics in separate schools in Northern Ireland is a benign form of apartheid, Stormont's First Minister said last night" > http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/peter-robinson-calls-for-end-to-school-segregation-14978235.html

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

Mike 1972

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish,

Of course it is.

Just so long as theyre willing to pay for it.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme.

How so ?

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

I believe recently theyve even started letting the wimmen vote............

tommy2bad

Evangelical Protestants will not accept this back door entrance of Secularism,

Posted as a response to the linked article by RevMervynCotton.

and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies

Posted by TQE
Strange bedfellows indeed.

Manach

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Of course it is.

Just so long as theyre willing to pay for it.

As per our current consitution which emphasises the duty of parents in education, they already are paying as taxpayers.

irishh_bob

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

while the above is all true , this statement from peter robinson does sound progressive and forward thinking

Mike 1972

Manach wrote: »

As per our current consitution.

The story under discussion relates to Northern Ireland.

Unless Ive missed some big story on todays news NI is still part of the United Kingdom.

Manach wrote: »

they already are paying as taxpayers.

Taxes cover education not religious indoctrination.

The Quadratic Equation

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Of course it is.

Just so long as theyre willing to pay for it.

Catholic taxpayers pay the same taxes as non Catholics.
Catholic schools are entitled to the same funding as any other denomination.

tommy2bad

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Catholic taxpayers pay the same taxes as non Catholics.
Catholic schools are entitled to the same funding as any other denomination.

Thats kinda Robinsons point though, duplication isn't financially efficient.
The same education could be given for less cost if both systems were amalgamated into one. Probably with faith schools as a fee paying option.

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

Thats kinda Robinsons point though, duplication isn't financially efficient.
The same education could be given for less cost if both systems were amalgamated into one. Probably with faith schools as a fee paying option.

The only saving would be if supersized one size fits all schools were created, instead of having small local schools. I'm not so sure such schools offer a better education, and Catholic owned schools are rightly entitled to the same funding as any other denomination or philosophy.

passarellaie

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Catholic taxpayers pay the same taxes as non Catholics.
Catholic schools are entitled to the same funding as any other denomination.

Of course.I think that we have had so much flack from the humanists and anti Catholics that it is time that Catholic taxpayers should only pay for Catholic schools and let the others have whatever they want.The DUP of course are of the opinion that Germany are now the colonizers of the republic.Surely now that Luthers country is in charge they will rush to join us

tommy2bad

I'm not so sure such schools offer a better education, and Catholic owned schools are rightly entitled to the same funding as any other denomination or philosophy.

i.e. none.
This is where it gets complicated.
If we have a state education system should it include or exclude subjects that are particular to some and not others. If we start down the road of exclusion then it must be excluded from all schools, no faith based schools at all fee paying or not.
If we want to include then how to do it, faith being faith it kinda insists on exclusion.
The problem with fee paying is it makes a faith based education an income based choice.
So leave it out and let the churches provide it. I know thats secularist but thats the thing about secularism, its fair.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

Which is why the first people do call for intergrated schooling was the Republican movement? :rolleyes:

http://irishconflict.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=74022924

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

So leave it out and let the churches provide it. I know thats secularist but thats the thing about secularism, its fair.

True secularism is not making a distinction between different beliefs. If non faith schools are entitled to funding then faith schools are as well too. Anything else is state atheism dressed up.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Which is why the first people do call for intergrated schooling was the Republican movement? :rolleyes:

http://irishconflict.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=74022924

Ah yes, confusing marxist republicans with Catholics again, a typical mistake.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Nothing new here, the Unionists in the six counties have been trying to do away with Catholic schools for generations. If a parent wants to send their children to a multi belief school, thats fine, but equally, it is also a Catholics parents right to have Catholic schools if they so wish, and not be forced to have their Children brought up in other peoples mixed beliefs/philosophies in a Catholic school. Any Unionist talking about apartheid is ironic in the extreme. Short memories indeed. Thankfully Catholics are now allowed "one man, one vote" in the six counties.

You know next to nothing about the north and as you have condemned the armed struggle I find your whinging about evil northern Prods whenever you can get the chance annoying. People were NEVER denied one man, one vote on a religious basis- it was along CLASS not RELIGIOUS lines. Human flith such as yourself would have had the vote.

Next- RC and Free P schools have to be destroyed if we are to have a future without "Peace" walls in the north. Just as in the Mc Cann case Rome cares only for her lust for power rather than the good of people in the six counties.

tommy2bad

State atheism? I'm all for it, the alternative being a theocracy like for instance Saudi.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Ah yes, confusing marxist republicans with Catholics again, a typical mistake.

At the time that photo was taken the Officials were the largest part of the Republican movement- I mentioned Republicans NOT Catholics.

Unionists were happy with the divide being reinforced. What Peter Robinson is doing is trying to break the DUP away from being a Free P controlled party, and he is using the schools as a round about way to do it...But a bigot like you wouldnt be able to understand such things.

PatricaMcKay2

tommy2bad wrote: »

Thats kinda Robinsons point though, duplication isn't financially efficient.
The same education could be given for less cost if both systems were amalgamated into one. Probably with faith schools as a fee paying option.

We are talking about the north.

Leave RE to Sunday school and the family.

Faith schools should not be allowed in that society.

tommy2bad

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

We are talking about the north.

Leave RE to Sunday school and the family.

Faith schools should not be allowed in that society.

See my other post.
I was just trying to think how it 'would' rather than 'should' pan out.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

You know next to nothing about the north and as you have condemned the armed struggle I find your whinging about evil northern Prods whenever you can get the chance annoying. People were NEVER denied one man, one vote on a religious basis- it was along CLASS not RELIGIOUS lines. Human flith such as yourself would have had the vote.

Next- RC and Free P schools have to be destroyed if we are to have a future without "Peace" walls in the north. Just as in the Mc Cann case Rome cares only for her lust for power rather than the good of people in the six counties.

Class ? LOL Oh is that why Catholics, including people from my own famaily, were discrimated against when it came to social housing and jobs ?

I was born and bred in the six counties, and although there are many decent and non sectarian people there, you've remined me why I'm so glad I don't have to live in that bigotted little sectarian backwater any more.

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

State atheism? I'm all for it, the alternative being a theocracy like for instance Saudi.

If you like state atheism, the best example in Europe was Albania in the 70's. It didn't work out too well for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

Article 37 of the Albanian Constitution of 1976 stipulated, "The State recognizes no religion, and supports atheistic propaganda in order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people." and the penal code of 1977 imposed prison sentences of three to ten years for "religious propaganda and the production, distribution, or storage of religious literature." Parents were afraid to pass on their faith, for fear that their children would tell others. Officials tried to entrap practicing Christians and Muslims during religious fasts, such as Lent and Ramadan, by distributing dairy products and other forbidden foods in school and at work, and then publicly denouncing those who refused the food, and clergy who conducted secret services were incarcerated. Catholic priest Shtjefen Kurti, had been executed for secretly baptizing a child in Shkodër in 1972

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Class ? LOL Oh is that why Catholics, including people from my own famaily, were discrimated against when it came to social housing and jobs ?
.

I thought you were against Marxist Republicanism?

The Protestants who lived in some of the worst housing conditions in Europe had such a lovely time. Lets not forget the fact that Nationalist controlled councils also discriminated. You are the mirror image of the DUP.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I thought you were against Marxist Republicanism?

And since when did "human filth" like me have to be Marxist Republicans to object to discrimination ?

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Class ? LOL .

Yes CLASS.

There were never any laws saying that Catholics couldnt vote in local elections.

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

And since when did "human filth" like me have to be Marxist Republicans to object to discrimination ?

You entirely missed the point.

The Quadratic Equation

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Yes CLASS.

There were never any laws saying that Catholics couldnt vote in local elections.

You're some revisionist and sophist, its shocking really, I thought the six counties had moved on.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/index.html CAIN - University of Ulster

Two categories of voters were formed to ensure Protestant dominance at the polls: (1) the 'ratepayers', primary occupiers of a household as either tenants or owners, and (2) persons who owned commercial property valued at £10 or more per year. As only two people per house were allowed to vote, the ratepayer category effectively excluded lodgers or adult children living at home. Both lodgers and adult children living at home tended to be Catholics due to their lower overall economic status and larger families; thus, Catholic franchise was restricted. People in the second category, that is, owners of commercial property, were allowed to nominate special voters for each £10 of value of their property, up to a maximum of six voters (Darby 1976, 50). Since over 90 per cent of the commercial property in Northern Ireland was Protestant owned, this provision expanded their voting franchise and, along with the ratepayer category, extended Unionist control over the ballot box and the government.

These types of discrimination were so blatant that the Cameron Commission investigation of 1968 issued a report critical of the local electoral system. The Commission reported that in Derry, while Catholics made up over 60 per cent of the electorate, due to the districting system, they won only 40 per cent of the County Borough seats (Rowthorn and Wayne 1988, 30). This is only one example among many in which the gerrymandering of districts produced Unionist majorities on local councils in communities that were predominantly Catholic.

Mike 1972

tommy2bad wrote: »

State atheism? I'm all for it, the alternative being a theocracy like for instance Saudi.

State secularism and State atheism are not necessarily the same thing.

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

WFaith schools should not be allowed in that society.

Faith schools should not get public funds in ANY society.

But if people are prepared to pay for it themselves then who are you or I to stop them ?

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I thought you were against Marxist Republicanism?

The Protestants who lived in some of the worst housing conditions in Europe had such a lovely time. Lets not forget the fact that Nationalist controlled councils also discriminated. You are the mirror image of the DUP.

It is one of the biggest myths that only Roman Catholics had discrimination and bad housing all those years ago. It isn't true.

Tomk1

LordSutch wrote: »

but how would it work (large scale) here in the Republic? Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Methodist, & Presbyterian children all educated together?

... as roman catholics in complete volation of the UN Human rights convention for freedom of beliefs. Our Vatican Republic is hardly a specimen of impartial inclusive education.