Hear/Dare Schemes... How are they fair?

xclw

I'm repeating this year because I didn't get enough points for the course i really wanted to do.
But how is it fair that because someone's parents are unemployed/ divorced or something else like that they are able to get college courses for less points than me?

I got 440 points and wanted to do primary teaching, a girl in my year got the course with 415 points because her parents were unemployed. ( her dad had his job until february of 6th year though and her mother never had a job in the first place) She got the exact same education as me because we were in most of the same classes.

how are these things fair for people who get higher points?

LoonyLovegood

I'm applying for DARE, for one simple reason. I miss a LOT of classes, because of regular doctors appointments. I'm not sure how HEAR works, but for DARE, it's quite simple. If a student has the brains, and the knowledge, and can do the course, but due to their medical needs will miss a lot of class, then they get help. It's all subjective, depending on how many applicants get it, how many have applied through DARE and so on.

I need it. I miss an average of four classes a week, sometimes more. I do my best to catch up, but sometimes it's not enough. If I get it, I know I've a chance of actually being able to do something with my life, as opposed to being stuck doing nothing if I don't get it.

xclw

yeah but many schools have non-exam classes like pe and religion so what if people only miss them classes and not others especially if it's appointments that can be scheduled...

LoonyLovegood

I don't do pe and religion. I only have my exam subjects, I sorted it like that for a reason, so I could miss as few classes as possible. I miss last two classes on a Monday (Irish and Biology), and then the first Friday, and either the last on Wednesday or the last on Friday. It's not just physical illnesses, but there's mental as well. I've had a horrific battle with mental illness, as well as two chronic. I've cut down my appointments compared to last year, but I've still got loads. It's just not an option to miss them all, or I mightn't even be here in June.

If we take your logic, should people suffering from a life threatening illness, such as cancer or a heart problem, who could die without regular monitoring, have to deal with trying to catch up with as much as possible outside of school, and be expected to perform as well as everyone else? Unfortunately, that's impossible.

Also, a lot of doctors will give you a regular appointment. I've one every Monday at half two, for example.

Bbbbolger

The OP's grievance seems to be more with the HEAR scheme than anything. Sometimes I think its a bit unfair too. I saw people getting courses ahead of me due to HEAR and now I'm back repeating having done better than them. I do think that allowances should be made for those suffering with economic disadvantages etc. Unfortunately I can't think of any better way of doing it. We're stuck with HEAR until a better alternative comes around.

not_so_civil

Just going to point this out, people on HEAR aren't taking the place of other people who apply via the normal route. There are a small number of places on each course set aside for people on the HEAR/DARE schemes same as each course has a few places set aside for matures. HEAR applicants are only competeing against other HEAR people for maybe 2 or 3 places

flyaway.

I qualified for HEAR... but got in on my own points. Not everyone who's on HEAR gets reduced points and they still need to get all the requirements. Lots of people just use HEAR for the other help the scheme gives.

The fact of the matter is that someone who comes from a dirt poor family, with no family who went past junior or leaving cert, possibly no support for their education at home, no money for extra grants if they're struggling, might have alcoholic or depressed parents, and living in an area where very few people even attend secondary school regularly, is less likely to further their education than someone with all the advantages in the world.

As for the DARE scheme, isn't it obvious? People will illnesses miss a whole lot of school. They deserve a bit of help.

Chuchoter

I think the DARE scheme is very fair. There's a girl in my year who is highly intelligent, hard working and appreciates her subjects but her back is really bad because she's slipped a load of disks. She comes in even though her doctors say she probably shouldn't. I think she deserves to get into her course because she has fought so hard to get in.

HEAR on the other hand I think is a symptom of a bad system. It effectively provides for people who can't go to private schools and pay for grinds. On the one hand that's fine, on the other hand we have an education system that if you just go sit down and learn it, you'll do fairly well. Its all rote learning, so I'm wondering if these people were really capable, why don't they just sit down and do the work, but I guess thats me speaking from a position of privelage.

laoch na mona

i am applying for HEAR and its the extra money and the free books and grinds that will be more useful
I assume the points thing is because were poor and cant afford grinds and such

Canard

I totally agree. It seems people with dyslexia can apply for DARE? Yeah its a disability but if you're dyslexic you're dyslexic...I mean there's a reason you dont achieve the points for the course you're trying to do. I dont mean that in a bad way at all, I dont really know how to put it.

HEAR is a little more understandable with the money for disadvantaged areas imo. But extra points? Bit far in my opinion.

Like I dont know - if someone cant attend school for some reason, why will they be able to attend college? If they can catch up on the college work they miss, why not the school work? I'm not trying to belittle people's problems but I mean, I could probably get the DARE points if I tried but I'd rather get it on my own points and work tbh.

leaveiton

Patchy~ wrote: »

.
Like I dont know - if someone cant attend school for some reason, why will they be able to attend college? If they can catch up on the college work they miss, why not the school work? I'm not trying to belittle people's problems but I mean, I could probably get the DARE points if I tried but I'd rather get it on my own points and work tbh.

To be fair, though, the DARE scheme (and the HEAR scheme) is not just about getting reduced points. If anything, I'd say that's a fairly small factor, and that it's moreso about the extra support you receive once you're actually in college. I'm hoping to be eligible for the HEAR scheme this year, because I could do with that additional support. Not because I'm too lazy to get the points, or anything like that. I won't even know if I'm eligible until "late June", according to the information in the HEAR booklet - which I'm presuming will be after the Leaving Cert. I'm still planning to work hard and get the points that I need, as I know I'm perfectly capable of it.

randylonghorn

HEAR isn't always 100% "fair" ... what is?! But it's an attempt to redress an inherent unfairness / inequity in the system, and while it's an imperfect one, the overall result is generally at least nearer to an overall "fair" balance than would be achievable without it.

Let's look at the two extremes in Irish second-level education. On the one hand you have the youngsters who grow up in well-off homes, with probably both parents graduates. They went to a "good" primary school, they were shuttled around after school in the SUVs to extra-curricular activities: drama, music, dance, sports, etc., etc. They go on to a private (i.e. fee-paying) school like Clongowes Wood or Belvedere or Blackrock. They get grinds in the evening or on Saturdays in any subject in which they feel the need of extra help. Or perhaps they go to (or repeat in) somewhere like the IoE.

They have every advantage, in other words. Sure, they still have to work; their private tutors can't do the exams for them. But they grow up in a home where progression to third-level is seen as the norm; they go to schools where it is seen as the norm; they live in communities where it is seen as the norm ... and they get every possible help to achieve that norm.

On the other extreme, you have the youngsters who live in areas where far from being the norm, progression to third level is often seen as an aberration. I remember chatting to a couple of lads from Finglas some years ago when I was a youth worker; they were maybe 18 / 19 and were involved as voluntary youth leaders. Both were extremely bright and during the conversation it was obvious that both had a hankering to go on to third level. However, when I asked them they explained that it wasn't encouraged by their families and simply wasn't acceptable at all to their peer group. "Jaysus, no! Sure anyone who suggests going to college is immediately labeled a f*g**t or a bender, and told 'the only reason you'd want to go to that place is if you were looking for someone to give it to you up the ...' " Well, let's leave it there, you get the picture! My apologies for being crude, but I'm quoting verbatim to illustrate a point.

I suspect that attitude may have broken down a bit over the last few years, but it's still around to an extent. Not exactly encouraging to a young lad of 15 / 16 facing into his LC, is it? Apparently it was slightly more acceptable for girls, though even then it was presumed that they had what my grandmother might have termed "ideas above their station". And there are lots of areas around the country where that attitude / culture is prevalent; mostly they are areas of cities and big towns, but it's not unknown even in certain rural areas.

Now add to that backdrop the fact that the local school may have very few students interested in third level, and may in fact be struggling to maintain discipline and to ensure that all their students walk out the door with at least a reasonable level of education.

There is no money at home for grinds; there is possibly little support from parents; and if they do beat the odds and get to college, there is no financial back-up from home to support them there: they are entirely dependent on what state support there is and on what they might be able to earn in a part-time job (if they can get one).

As I said, these are the two extremes, and most people fall somewhere in the middle.

But our Constitution (rightly) promises to "cherish all the children of the state equally". Is it not incumbent on the State therefore to attempt to redress the balance, and to offer extra supports and incentives to those who traditionally simply did not go on to college, or who did so in very small numbers? (If you want to see the figures for participation in HE over the years, Patrick Clancy in UCD has been tracking this for a couple of decades, and has plenty published on the subject).

HEAR is a blunt instrument, and it's by no means perfect, but it is at least an attempt to do something.

Any scheme like HEAR, no matter how devised, will always be imperfect in fact.

Ideally, the extra resources should be applied all the way from pre-school and primary upwards through second-level, so that by the time people reach LC they are well capable of competing on an equal footing with everyone else in the country for points, and there would be no need to have special entry points for HEAR candidates (whatever about extra financial supports to make it possible for them to actually participate and complete their course). And it's usually the points system that irritates people, rather than the financial supports, for reasons I can easily understand. But the resources simply aren't there for that ... hell, they weren't there during the boom, let alone now!

So, yes, it's a blunt instrument, and it's not 100% fair ... but it's an attempt to redress the balance, and it has some success in doing so. There is at least some hope in the present system that a bright young person with all the odds against them will still make it to third level.

randylonghorn

Patchy~ wrote: »

I totally agree. It seems people with dyslexia can apply for DARE? Yeah its a disability but if you're dyslexic you're dyslexic...I mean there's a reason you dont achieve the points for the course you're trying to do.

Dyslexia is totally separate from intelligence, though. I have encountered at least one university lecturer in the UK with pretty severe dyslexia. Wonderfully intelligent woman, and a great lecturer / teacher. Gives all her lectures without a single note in front of her; they're fairly useless to her, anyway.

The problem is that our assessment system is very narrowly focused in terms of the assessment methodology: you read reams in preparation, and you write reams in exams. To a great extent, how fast you can write and regurgitate information is a major factor in how you will do: whereas ideally it should be 100% about your knowledge and understanding.

Admittedly, technology is beginning to have some impact on this, and I suspect it will have a far greater impact in the future.

Canard

randylonghorn wrote: »

Dyslexia is totally separate from intelligence, though. I have encountered at least one university lecturer in the UK with pretty severe dyslexia. Wonderfully intelligent woman, and a great lecturer / teacher. Gives all her lectures without a single note in front of her; they're fairly useless to her, anyway.

The problem is that our assessment system is very narrowly focused in terms of the assessment methodology: you read reams in preparation, and you write reams in exams. To a great extent, how fast you can write and regurgitate information is a major factor in how you will do: whereas ideally it should be 100% about your knowledge and understanding.

Admittedly, technology is beginning to have some impact on this, and I suspect it will have a far greater impact in the future.

Oh of course, I know a few dyslexic people who are very smart. I just meant something like if a dyslexic person didnt get the points for an English course then got in on DARE, it's a bit silly I think. I definitely agree on the exam flaws though. A huge advantage and improvement would be to remove the time limit or at least extend it because in English P1, for example, we're expected to come up with and write a short story or personal essay in just over an hour on topics that probably dont exactly warrant a good story or promote creativity.

I agree with you too, leaveiton, the extra support is brilliant and really good to see I just think sometimes the points could be better used - a guy I know was basically too lazy to study because he didnt like that he was "being put through a system" and got the DARE points on the basis of depression. We all have to do the LC to go to college, boohoo. :rolleyes:

LoonyLovegood

DARE for depression is the hardest thing to get it for though. You have to go through a psychiatrist and psychologist. Even then, it's so bloody subjective that you mightn't get it!

laoch na mona

you can get DARE if you have no sense of smell
I had surgery on my eye and I can't get it

spurious

Depression is a hideous disease.
Let's not make this thread into 'I have more problems than you'.

What's with the massive assumption going here that if you're not on these schemes you can afford to get grinds?

randylonghorn

I'd didn't make that assumption, certainly. I said that "most people fall somewhere in the middle" between the two extremes I outlined.

laoch na mona

AdamD wrote: »

What's with the massive assumption going here that if you're not on these schemes you can afford to get grinds?

HEAR=poor
grinds=expensive

darryl2010

your a load of snobs

Canard

What about their load of snobs?

biohaiid

Seriously? Your actually asking this?

Human rights like. Education.
If there wasn't programmes like this there would be a huge social divide, can you imagine the effect that would have?
It doesn't affect people not on the scheme whatsoever. You are open to compete for the standard amount of places.
And so are HEAR applicants, but there are also a small amount of places (emphasis on the small) for us too. And rightly so.
JUST because someones parents are unemployed? JUST becasue someones parents are divorced?
Please.
Thats one, the effect those things can have on someone and in turn their EDUCATION is far more profound.

mcpaddington

The thing I can't stand is people abusing the HEAR scheme. I know a guy for instance who's dad fixes machinery, he gets plenty of money in envelopes if you know what I mean, but seeing as he doesn't officially work also has a medical card etc and most likely collects the dole. He applied and probably got accepted to HEAR.

reznov

mcpaddington wrote: »

The thing I can't stand is people abusing the HEAR scheme. I know a guy for instance who's dad fixes machinery, he gets plenty of money in envelopes if you know what I mean, but seeing as he doesn't officially work also has a medical card etc and most likely collects the dole. He applied and probably got accepted to HEAR.

Fair play to him. Why not maximise benefits after all?

AVA_Steve

Hi, I lurk around the boards don't post that often but I had to this time. I find it really disgusting and pathetic whats going on in this thread. Especially the OP, "Why should someone get in with less points because their parents are unemployed, or they haven't as much money etc etc. There is a couple of simple explanations for that, I'm speaking from personal experience here, I applied to HEAR because both my parents are unemployed, my mother is a Dialysis patient waiting to get on the transplant list and has very little money and my father was a mechanic until the recession kicked in and it has really hit him hard.

Now because of these things I've had a rough experience in Secondary school, I've been bullied because my parents are split up and because of the type of person I am I'm labelled a goth or because of my long hair I'm labelled a "f*gg*t" now I don't let these things get to me, but as anyone who's been a victim of bullying knows, being under that kind of I hate to use such a powerful word but "torture" day in day out, makes it so hard to study especially with the pressure I already face at home to do well so that I can make a real future for myself. I need the HEAR program so that I can actually go to College, I didn't have the luxury of spending every evening studying for my leaving cert, hell I was barely able to get the time off work to study in the weeks leading up to it. And to come on here and have some random guy mouthing off because he feels hard done by just because he needs to get the required points for his course which you should aim for anyways really makes me feel angry. Now I still aim to achieve the full points required for my course, I'm not going to slack off because I may have 10% of the points of my course reduced, what the hell would that say about me as a person? How would I be doing myself or my parents proud then?

Some of the people in this thread make me sick, especially the ones complaining about the things which qualify or don't qualify for the DARE program, like dyslexia, what the hell? Dyslexia is debilitating, it decreases the possibility of getting considered for certain jobs even if the person is perfectly qualified. And to the guy saying how people without a sense of smell get it but he had an operation on his eye and he cant? Please forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong, but that was an operation which you recovered from, people who don't have a sense of smell or a disability like that can't recover from it. So seriously take a reality check and realize the crap you've been posting. God.


/rant over

CookieMonster.x

I think HEAR and DARE are great schemes however I do think they (HEAR moreso) can be abused.
I know people who have medical cards, don't work etc but can afford all the luxuries in the world. These people get in on HEAR and get grants however the money is not used for college. Instead it's used to go out every weekend or some other non college related activity. One person bought a car with the money and another funded a trip to America with it. This is completely unfair.
Also in these posts people seem to either fall in the privately educated rich kids category or the poor kids category. What about the people in between? My parents have good jobs however they have to fund 3 kids in college soon to be 4. Like many others they struggle yet for some people money is handed to them on a plate for them to throw away.
I think these systems are great however I resent the fact that some people who receive this help squander this help. Don't get me wrong, I am all for people receiving help where help is needed but some people really just take advantage of help.

finality

Patchy~ wrote: »

Oh of course, I know a few dyslexic people who are very smart. I just meant something like if a dyslexic person didnt get the points for an English course then got in on DARE, it's a bit silly I think. I definitely agree on the exam flaws though. A huge advantage and improvement would be to remove the time limit or at least extend it because in English P1, for example, we're expected to come up with and write a short story or personal essay in just over an hour on topics that probably dont exactly warrant a good story or promote creativity.

I agree with you too, leaveiton, the extra support is brilliant and really good to see I just think sometimes the points could be better used - a guy I know was basically too lazy to study because he didnt like that he was "being put through a system" and got the DARE points on the basis of depression. We all have to do the LC to go to college, boohoo. :rolleyes:

I find it really offensive that people with depression are labelled "lazy". If you haven't suffered from depression in my opinion you just can't understand the overwhelming effect it has on your life. When it's a struggle just to get out of bed in the morning or you simply can't focus on schoolwork, studying isn't the easiest thing to do. Depression isn't just feeling "sad," when you're depressed you feel absolutely exhausted all the time and nothing seems interesting or worthwhile. Depression is one of the absolute best reasons to get into college on reduced points.

As for getting into an English course through HEAR because of dyslexia, I know someone who is dyslexic and has just completed an English course, he's done exceptionally well throughout and is reasonably confident of getting a 1.1. Dyslexia might have an effect on someone's results in school, particularly if it's not diagnosed until fifth or sixth year, but in college accommodations can be made for people with dyslexia, for instance in the case of the person I mentioned, his spelling doesn't cost him marks in exams. In English in college it's your thoughts and opinions on texts that are important, and someone with dyslexia is perfectly capable of analysing a text. If someone with dyslexia really struggled with English or didn't have the potential to do well in it, they wouldn't apply to study English in the first place.

fizzyorange

I agree that HEAR can be abused...but people saying being poor doesn't affect the points you will achieve because it's all just rote learning? Absolute crap. I have friends who are fairly wealthy, go to private schools etc and they have EVERYTHING done for them. Dinners made, clothes washed and ironed, even rooms cleaned! They have the best of everything and of course this will help them preform better in school than the average joe who eats sausages and chips every night for dinner, works part time, etc.

Myself, well I think I deserve all of the HEAR scheme benefits. I don't have parents and I live with my grandmother who is very ill. I am her primary carer but I don't get any money for it because I refuse to leave school. A lot of my time is taken up with looking after my nan, helping around the house, doing the shopping, etc. Obviously this allows for less time with school, but it can't be helped. So why should I not get into my college course with a 10% point reduction?

reznov

Everything can be abused - legislation, schemes, financial benefits. Nothing is without it's glitches and loopholes, but it does IN NO WAY imply that the HEAR or DARE scheme is unfair. Anyone that is disabled either mentally or physically should definitely avail of some sort of educational aid. The points race seems to have robbed students of any moral decency.


Education should be available to everyone so they can reach self actualisation.
Sorry if that somehow infringes on your beliefs..

reznov

fizzyorange wrote: »

I agree that HEAR can be abused...but people saying being poor doesn't affect the points you will achieve because it's all just rote learning? Absolute crap. I have friends who are fairly wealthy, go to private schools etc and they have EVERYTHING done for them. Dinners made, clothes washed and ironed, even rooms cleaned! They have the best of everything and of course this will help them preform better in school than the average joe who eats sausages and chips every night for dinner, works part time, etc.

Myself, well I think I deserve all of the HEAR scheme benefits. I don't have parents and I live with my grandmother who is very ill. I am her primary carer but I don't get any money for it because I refuse to leave school. A lot of my time is taken up with looking after my nan, helping around the house, doing the shopping, etc. Obviously this allows for less time with school, but it can't be helped. So why should I not get into my college course with a 10% point reduction?

An example of a person with a heart who should definitely benefit from such a scheme.

fizzyorange

reznov wrote: »

An example of a person with a heart who should definitely benefit from such a scheme.

Awh thanks reznov, appreciate the kind words.

Also @RugbyandStalin....I don't even have words for your insensitivity.

Edit: RugbyandStalin...close enough. :pac:

QueenOfLeon

Stalin and Rugby appears to have closed his account so the infractions I was about to give out are a bit pointless.

Any further comments like that, however, will not be taken lightly.

deathbythelc

This thread is HORRIFICALLY insensitive.

Sure, there are people who abuse the system, but HEAR/DARE can help people who really need it, people who may not get to college otherwise.

OP, I think you really need to take a step back and come to the realisation that some people aren't as well off financially/genetically as you and they deserve something to help them along.

certifiedcrepe

Losing respect for the people on here who are saying the DARE scheme is not fair. It's not our fault we miss school and can't concentrate sometimes. there's allocated places so we're not taking any other people's places. There's more support in college to accommodate people with disabilities.

sarahmocks

Patchy~ wrote: »

I totally agree. It seems people with dyslexia can apply for DARE? Yeah its a disability but if you're dyslexic you're dyslexic...I mean there's a reason you dont achieve the points for the course you're trying to do. I dont mean that in a bad way at all, I dont really know how to put it.

HEAR is a little more understandable with the money for disadvantaged areas imo. But extra points? Bit far in my opinion.

Like I dont know - if someone cant attend school for some reason, why will they be able to attend college? If they can catch up on the college work they miss, why not the school work? I'm not trying to belittle people's problems but I mean, I could probably get the DARE points if I tried but I'd rather get it on my own points and work tbh.

I applied for DARE but for some reason my very annoying doctor (putting it nicely) refused to fill out the yoke so im 99% certain i won't get it! but to answer your question, what's wrong with me isn't as bad as it used to be and i dont have as many appointments as i used to so thankfully this year hasn't been as bad as others! but up till now i was missing pretty much a day a week! in 5th year i missed a lot of course work etc due to both appointments and the affects of my illness! of course i could have to miss college time next year, but most college courses dont have as strict a timetable (9-4 monday to friday) and as somebody else said most hospitals/doctors are pretty sound when it comes to suiting appointments to suit you! Hope i helped to clear things up! not sure if i did though i have a habit of rambling! ha sorry

sarahmocks

fizzyorange wrote: »

I agree that HEAR can be abused...but people saying being poor doesn't affect the points you will achieve because it's all just rote learning? Absolute crap. I have friends who are fairly wealthy, go to private schools etc and they have EVERYTHING done for them. Dinners made, clothes washed and ironed, even rooms cleaned! They have the best of everything and of course this will help them preform better in school than the average joe who eats sausages and chips every night for dinner, works part time, etc.

Myself, well I think I deserve all of the HEAR scheme benefits. I don't have parents and I live with my grandmother who is very ill. I am her primary carer but I don't get any money for it because I refuse to leave school. A lot of my time is taken up with looking after my nan, helping around the house, doing the shopping, etc. Obviously this allows for less time with school, but it can't be helped. So why should I not get into my college course with a 10% point reduction?

Fair Play to you, not many people our age would do something so selfless! you've obviously been through a lot so i hope the rest of your exams go well and get the course you want!

Queenalocin

Hi all,
just wondering if anyone has heard about their eligibility for DARE yet? The letters were to be sent out after the leaving cert and it would have been nice to know before the change of mind slips have to be in

Nicole.

Queenalocin wrote: »

Hi all,
just wondering if anyone has heard about their eligibility for DARE yet? The letters were to be sent out after the leaving cert and it would have been nice to know before the change of mind slips have to be in

I have applied for DARE and I haven't heard anything back yet.

Queenalocin

Just got an email from the people in DARE, letters were posted on Friday so they should be arrive early next week.

Twilighter107

Just in response to people claims that people who suffer from dyslexia shouldn't qualify for the DARE scheme. I'd like to tell you about me. I personally excel at English. I'm a solid A1 / A2 student and I'm very passionate about it as a subject. However, this is with a spelling waiver. Without that waiver I'd be brought down to, at maximum, a B1. Do you know how frustrating that is? And that's only for the waiver

I've been psychologically assessed and deemed a "concrete" learning. I like facts and rope learning like in Biology. I can't comprehend languages, which all college courses require. I study both Spanish and Irish every single night and despite the time and effort I put in I won't get beyond a B3 in ordinary Irish and a D would be a dream in Spanish cause I will be lucky to pass. My mind doesn't understand them and I can't fix that.

So you can say it's not fair but you're really at an unfair advantage then. You're brain is willing and happy to encompass all these lowly verbs and prepositions and mine isn't. When you open up your envelope and see a B2 in Spanish I may have failed though I probably worked just as hard, of not harder, than you. That's a huge downfall points wise. Yes I'm a highly intelligent girl, I love to read more than anything else and I love a majority of my subjects. I'm aiming high, for 530 points, because why should I let my dyslexia dictate my future? So you tell me I'm not entitled to put myself forward for a reduced point rate all you want but it is fair.

spurious

mackleman

If you're annoyed that people get in on reduced points because of HEAR maybe you should try putting yourself in their shoes and see how envious they must feel of anyone who can pay for grinds or afford to go to a good school with good teachers (it does make a difference).It isnt perfect but it's definately nessacary

As for DARE? where do i begin

I applied as did 2 of my best friends

one missed months of school for physical reasons and the other missed school because they were in pysch hospital - the are both more then capable of doing the courses they want and would have gotten the points - if they hadnt gotten ill

As for myself? As a result of illness i miss a lot of school and have really bad concentration issues, i understand everything and am well caable of getting the points - if i wasnt ill.

idk sorry if i seem angry but i am, i work every moment i physically can and its killing me but it's still not enough as a result of my illness? And im sitting here, reading this and thinking - DARE may be the only way i get into college but i would trade it in a heartbeat for what u have- to be healthy

EoghanIRL

mackleman wrote: »

If you're annoyed that people get in on reduced points because of HEAR maybe you should try putting yourself in their shoes and see how envious they must feel of anyone who can pay for grinds or afford to go to a good school with good teachers (it does make a difference).It isnt perfect but it's definately nessacary

As for DARE? where do i begin

I applied as did 2 of my best friends

one missed months of school for physical reasons and the other missed school because they were in pysch hospital - the are both more then capable of doing the courses they want and would have gotten the points - if they hadnt gotten ill

As for myself? As a result of illness i miss a lot of school and have really bad concentration issues, i understand everything and am well caable of getting the points - if i wasnt ill.

idk sorry if i seem angry but i am, i work every moment i physically can and its killing me but it's still not enough as a result of my illness? And im sitting here, reading this and thinking - DARE may be the only way i get into college but i would trade it in a heartbeat for what u have- to be healthy

I don't have a problem with the dare scheme. What you said is fair.

I disagree with the HEAR scheme completely.

mackleman wrote: »

If you're annoyed that people get in on reduced points because of HEAR maybe you should try putting yourself in their shoes and see how envious they must feel of anyone who can pay for grinds or afford to go to a good school with good teachers (it does make a difference).It isnt perfect but it's definately nessacary

These are not valid reasons for reduced points.
Plenty of people go to normal schools and don't get grinds. They still get the course they want. Why? - because they work hard.
I have a problem with Susi as well but giving some students easier access to a course is laughable in my opinion.
Either all students or no students should get special treatment.

mackleman

Hears about trying to lessen socio.economic inequality , as I said it's not perfect but the fact is its harder for people from poorer areas to get into college - for a number of reasons - and what do you mean by normal school? Public schools in nice areas?

Idk this whole thread just reeks of ' why don't poor people work harder ' and that's such an overly simplistic view, imma sleep

citadels

Just posting here to give some perspective. I am a Leaving Cert student (sitting the exams in a few weeks) who has applied to the HEAR scheme. I don't know if I have been accepted yet and will not know until July after the exams have finished.

My parents split up in December. Since then it's been really hard. I'm living with my mother and she tries as hard as we can but we do struggle. I'm lucky enough to be able to do supervised study after school, but we can barely afford it, and we have to sacrifice other luxuries to be able to.

The grinds market is worth between €20 and €50 million per year. Now, I go to a decent school. It's not a private school, but it's certainly not a bad one. Nearly all of the students in my year get grinds in at least one subject - most of them get grinds in a few. I'm intelligent enough but I struggle in maths and Spanish. Unlike my friends, I can't afford to pay for extra lessons to help me in them, so obviously I'm not going to do as well. Even though English is my best subject, it's difficult for me to compete with people who are getting loads of extra notes from grinds teachers once a week! It doesn't just stop with grinds either. I wasn't lucky enough to be able to shell out a few hundred euro to attend revision courses over Easter and Christmas. We're not saying that everybody who doesn't apply to the HEAR scheme can afford grinds; what we're saying is that if you can afford grinds, you're probably not applying to the HEAR scheme. You don't need it.

In theory, the mantra that "you put in what you get out" of the Leaving is true. If you study hard and often you will get good results. However, you simply cannot say that someone from a disadvantaged background has the same level of advantage as someone from a privileged one. It's not true and it's just not fair. The HEAR scheme is a reflection of what a deeply flawed system the Leaving Cert is. A recent report from the State Examinations Commission stated that the number of people in Ireland getting extra help from tutors is higher than the figures in France, Germany and England. Maybe if the system is overhauled and improved then we will not need schemes like this one, but until that happens I really don't think people have any right to complain about them.

Your whole capitalistic idea that people from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are lazy and abusing the system is insulting to anyone who benefits from these schemes. Not everyone comes from such a privileged background as you. And people who are saying that the HEAR scheme can be abused - the people running the scheme are not stupid. They will not willingly hand over money and college places to people who do not deserve it. Anyone on these schemes wholly deserves their place and to say otherwise is condescending and offensive.

Education is a human right. We are all entitled to it.

Do You Even Squat

citadels wrote: »

Just posting here to give some perspective. I am a Leaving Cert student (sitting the exams in a few weeks) who has applied to the HEAR scheme. I don't know if I have been accepted yet and will not know until July after the exams have finished.

My parents split up in December. Since then it's been really hard. I'm living with my mother and she tries as hard as we can but we do struggle. I'm lucky enough to be able to do supervised study after school, but we can barely afford it, and we have to sacrifice other luxuries to be able to.

The grinds market is worth between €20 and €50 million per year. Now, I go to a decent school. It's not a private school, but it's certainly not a bad one. Nearly all of the students in my year get grinds in at least one subject - most of them get grinds in a few. I'm intelligent enough but I struggle in maths and Spanish. Unlike my friends, I can't afford to pay for extra lessons to help me in them, so obviously I'm not going to do as well. Even though English is my best subject, it's difficult for me to compete with people who are getting loads of extra notes from grinds teachers once a week! It doesn't just stop with grinds either. I wasn't lucky enough to be able to shell out a few hundred euro to attend revision courses over Easter and Christmas. We're not saying that everybody who doesn't apply to the HEAR scheme can afford grinds; what we're saying is that if you can afford grinds, you're probably not applying to the HEAR scheme. You don't need it.

In theory, the mantra that "you put in what you get out" of the Leaving is true. If you study hard and often you will get good results. However, you simply cannot say that someone from a disadvantaged background has the same level of advantage as someone from a privileged one. It's not true and it's just not fair. The HEAR scheme is a reflection of what a deeply flawed system the Leaving Cert is. A recent report from the State Examinations Commission stated that the number of people in Ireland getting extra help from tutors is higher than the figures in France, Germany and England. Maybe if the system is overhauled and improved then we will not need schemes like this one, but until that happens I really don't think people have any right to complain about them.

Your whole capitalistic idea that people from socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds are lazy and abusing the system is insulting to anyone who benefits from these schemes. Not everyone comes from such a privileged background as you. And people who are saying that the HEAR scheme can be abused - the people running the scheme are not stupid. They will not willingly hand over money and college places to people who do not deserve it. Anyone on these schemes wholly deserves their place and to say otherwise is condescending and offensive.

Education is a human right. We are all entitled to it.

Sorry to hear about your troubles.
People who pay for grinds are pretty much píssing their money away in fairness, bar project maths as the subject is pretty messed up. The Leaving Cert is one of the easiest exams out there in terms of course content, maybe not in terms of volume. You pick up a book, learn off a piece of information, check if it follows the marking scheme and repeat. This applies for pretty much every subject.
The Leaving Cert rewards those with a strong work ethic, not intelligence.
Obviously there must be allowances made for those who come from a disadvantaged background (financially) but reducing entry points is ridiculous. One's financial income shouldn't affect one's ability to learn off arbitrary pieces of information by heart.
I am not in a well off position, not poor either, don't go to a fee paying school and don't pay for grinds. If someone wants their course bad enough, they'll put their head down and work for it.
I'm not saying that people who apply to the HEAR scheme are abusing the system etc, just pointing out that the scheme itself is ludicrous

spurious

There is a lot more to 'disadvantage' than just the financial aspect.