Proposed Budget Cuts to PS Overtime & Allowances...

HellFireClub

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has confirmed that the Government is to seek savings in allowances and overtime in the public sector.

It follows reports that plans are being drawn up to cut the estimated €1bn per annum cost of such elements of the public pay bill.

Reports this morning said the Cabinet has decided that cuts of 5% in the amount spent overall on allowances and premium pay will be introduced next year.

Further significant cuts of up to 10% will follow in 2013.

Government departments have been asked for plans on how the savings can be generated, and have also been told they will have to justify paying allowances to new entrants in the future, according to the report.

However trade unions have expressed concern that any such moves would be outside the terms of the Croke Park agreement on pay.

Mr Gilmore insisted the Government won't be breaching that deal.

"All state organisations are well aware that there is a necessity to bring down costs of all kinds, including payroll costs," he said.

"The Government is seeking to get savings in payroll where they can be achieved, but that will be done within the framework of the Croke Park Agreement."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tanaiste-confirms-govt-seeking-cuts-in-public-sector-allowances-529771.html#ixzz1eiPvoMgu

More tinkering at the edges and fear of going in and properly sorting out the issue for once and for all. 2% here, 5% there, meanwhile back on the planet reality you just have to do the hours and get on with it.

fliball123

HellFireClub wrote: »

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore has confirmed that the Government is to seek savings in allowances and overtime in the public sector.

It follows reports that plans are being drawn up to cut the estimated €1bn per annum cost of such elements of the public pay bill.

Reports this morning said the Cabinet has decided that cuts of 5% in the amount spent overall on allowances and premium pay will be introduced next year.

Further significant cuts of up to 10% will follow in 2013.

Government departments have been asked for plans on how the savings can be generated, and have also been told they will have to justify paying allowances to new entrants in the future, according to the report.

However trade unions have expressed concern that any such moves would be outside the terms of the Croke Park agreement on pay.

Mr Gilmore insisted the Government won't be breaching that deal.

"All state organisations are well aware that there is a necessity to bring down costs of all kinds, including payroll costs," he said.

"The Government is seeking to get savings in payroll where they can be achieved, but that will be done within the framework of the Croke Park Agreement."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tanaiste-confirms-govt-seeking-cuts-in-public-sector-allowances-529771.html#ixzz1eiPvoMgu

More tinkering at the edges and fear of going in and properly sorting out the issue for once and for all. 2% here, 5% there, meanwhile back on the planet reality you just have to do the hours and get on with it.

The unions are already voicing their disaproval of this even do it is within the remit of the CPA..It wold be great if they got this through

gazzer

So am I right in saying that this reduction will only be on new entrants? I doubt there are many new staff coming into the public service and as for overtime I dont think there is much of that either so where are the savings?

Lumbo

gazzer wrote: »

So am I right in saying that this reduction will only be on new entrants? I doubt there are many new staff coming into the public service and as for overtime I dont think there is much of that either so where are the savings?

Your right. There's very few new entrants coming into the PS. Any real savings from these measures will take a long time to come into effect.

I know my organisation have been cutting overtime and allowances since 2006. There's still a long way to go. It's usually Unions like SIPTU and Unite who make the claims.

Any decisions to cut or stop allowances usually end up infront of the LRC. If (and they usually do) they find in favour of the Union the buyout of overtime is paid at 1.5 times the average annual loss, this is part of the CPA and is no different to the rate paid to those lossing overtime/allowances in the Private Sector.

I couldn't care less if they cut these rates. I don't receive any allowances and I'd be safe in saying that I've only been paid for doing two weeks overtime in the ten years that I've been working here.

Gumbo

Lumbo wrote: »

I couldn't care less if they cut these rates. I don't receive any allowances and I'd be safe in saying that I've only been paid for doing two weeks overtime in the ten years that I've been working here.

+1
We dont get paid OT either, we get time for time, in lieu to use at out choice. the one thing i do get is mileage, but thats only when i use the car for work obviously.

Dannyboy83

HellFireClub wrote: »

More tinkering at the edges and fear of going in and properly sorting out the issue for once and for all. 2% here, 5% there, meanwhile back on the planet reality you just have to do the hours and get on with it.

Yes, completely agree.

One wonders how much longer this can drag on:
http://www.financedublin.com/pdfs/GG_debt_NTMA_note_May_2011.pdf

Ireland’s General Government Gross debt – the debt of all arms of Government and the standard metric across the EU – was €148.1bn at the end of 2010. It is projected to increase to €173bn at the end of 2011. Based on Department of Finance forecasts for the Exchequer deficit as set out in the recently published Ireland - Stability Programme Update and projected interest costs from the NTMA, General Government debt is forecast to reach €203bn by 2015 (see table 1 below).

Until I see something along the lines of "CPA broken", I will probably just continue to ignore what are basically platitudes.

(On a side note, did anybody hear Newstalk this morning? Some of the texts being send in were caustic to be polite about it. I had to laugh at the sloganeering tho, particularly with regard to Newstalk being the Fox News of Ireland - is it the Unions come up with this nonsense and then tell their members to say it or what? :pac: )

ParkRunner

The only way I can see them making savings on allowances at present is by replacing front line professional staff who get an allowance for performing certain duties, by admin staff. Tom Geraghty rightly pointed out this morning that to cut the rates would be outside the CPA

sarumite

EF wrote: »

The only way I can see them making savings on allowances at present is by replacing front line professional staff who get an allowance for performing certain duties, by admin staff. Tom Geraghty rightly pointed out this morning that to cut the rates would be outside the CPA

Strangely enough abandoning the whole agreement would actually be keeping within the the CPA itself. Doing so would give the government the option of removing those excess admin staff altogether and replacing them with front line professional staff (allowances left in check).

antoobrien

I seem to remember reading somewhere that any promotions within the PS would be taken as being new entrants. If true, don't know how they can work that but more power to them.

Sleepy

You wouldn't believe the difficulty some PS organisations have in even determining what overtime is being paid. I've professional experience of one that couldn't identify what components of the overtime bill were these contractual entitlements to allowances and what was guys clocking on for a few extra hours a day/week.

ParkRunner

sarumite wrote: »

Strangely enough abandoning the whole agreement would actually be keeping within the the CPA itself. Doing so would give the government the option of removing those excess admin staff altogether and replacing them with front line professional staff (allowances left in check).

True, the Government only last week endorsed the CPA so I cannot see it collapsing anytime soon. It wouldn't surprise me to see a voluntary redundancy scheme happening soon, targetted at admin staff, in order to bring about those savings and protect frontline staff.

Abandoning the CPA and having compulsory redundancies would not be the normal practice when trying to manage change in a very difficult environment.

sarumite

EF wrote: »

.

Abandoning the CPA and having compulsory redundancies would not be the normal practice when trying to manage change in a very difficult environment.

I have to disagree....there is very little normal about the CPA. In a very difficult environment most employers try and keep their options as flexible as possible, something the CPA does not achieve. What we have seen in this current environment has been a mix of voluntary and involuntary redundancies, pay cuts and a freeze on pay rises (also known as increments) in tandom with efficiency drives etc. The CPA has put the government into a situation whereby it cannot employ necessary professional staff in one area as it is unable to offload unneccasary personel in another area.

WalterMitty

Typical spin from Labour and co. I heard Liam Doran on radio at lunchtime saying no way any touching of entitlements and allowances etc so therefore our government wont touch it.
Of course if all HSE staff who are on less than 39hour weeks did 39hours (after breaks etc) then the need fo overtime would a lot less and those savings could cut deficit.
Its all a load of BS. How can you have a department of public sector reform that cant fire incompetent or poorly performing people? If they were serious about public sector reform they would insist on things like 39hour weeks for all, no strict demarcation bullsh1t, telling managers to grade every employee(not the mickey mouse grading where 99.99% of people get approved for increments) and then sack outright the worst performing 10% instead of forcing experienced staff into early retirement. How about mystery shoppers that will use all public services and assess them, placing independent assesors into public sector workplaces undercover, an agency to investigate fraud and misallocation of public funds, a much greater role for auditor generals office assessing value for money , low level managers who's department /section/office who conssitently underperform to be sacked,banning internet access in work hours,competition between hospitals/departments doing same work Etc etc etc

Make the serious cuts in pay and numbers now and let them earn back increases as proven productivity increases are delivered.

ParkRunner

sarumite wrote: »

I have to disagree....there is very little normal about the CPA. In a very difficult environment most employers try and keep their options as flexible as possible, something the CPA does not achieve. What we have seen in this current environment has been a mix of voluntary and involuntary redundancies, pay cuts and a freeze on pay rises (also known as increments) in tandom with efficiency drives etc. The CPA has put the government into a situation whereby it cannot employ necessary professional staff in one area as it is unable to offload unneccasary personel in another area.

Staff can be redeployed if needs be for example where quangos are merging. This is happening a lot lately and is cutting costs which would otherwise be spent on having two different organisations operating seperately. Where an essential vacancy exists the Minister for Finance can sanction posts to be filled and this has also been happening. Again there is nothing to prevent the government introducing targetted voluntary redundancy

HellFireClub

sarumite wrote: »

I have to disagree....there is very little normal about the CPA. In a very difficult environment most employers try and keep their options as flexible as possible, something the CPA does not achieve. What we have seen in this current environment has been a mix of voluntary and involuntary redundancies, pay cuts and a freeze on pay rises (also known as increments) in tandom with efficiency drives etc. The CPA has put the government into a situation whereby it cannot employ necessary professional staff in one area as it is unable to offload unneccasary personel in another area.

I'd argue equally that there is nothing at all normal about the situation that the CPA was meant to be fixing. A voluntary redundancy problem will not solve the problem of career bean counters in civil service positions, at HEO, Assistant Principal and Principal level, on 60K and upwards due to years of automatic increments, who have no intention of going anywhere!

It's not the staff nurse or the Traffic Sargeant we need to take up redundancy, it's the overpaid bean counter who is simply not needed to support the delivery of front line services. An audit is needed to identify these people and attach them to a compulsory redundancy program.

As hostile as I am towards PS workers in general, for the kind of belligerance, and I suppose selfishness that I can see, I do accept that there are many who do good work and who we rely on. But the whole system of administration in this country is so inefficient, it is difficult to see how any amount of change could start bringing things back to where they need to be in terms of expenditure.

WalterMitty

Every national pay deal over last 20 years had an "inability to pay" clause in it AFAIR , why hasnt this been invoked or at least threatened?

swordofislam

Sigh! :rolleyes:

More tedious public sector bashing from our libertardian government.
I suppose you won't mind when your mothers' houses burn down because there is no overtime for firemen?

Or do you think the fire will douse itself?:D

WalterMitty

swordofislam wrote: »

Sigh! :rolleyes:

More tedious public sector bashing from our libertardian government.
I suppose you won't mind when your mothers' houses burn down because there is no overtime for firemen?

Or do you think the fire will douse itself?:D

If we paid the firemen the same rates as in rest Europe we could afford to recruit more of them and not need overtime! Ya see the higher the average wage in public sector the less people can be employed for a fixed amount of budget, and the amount of work that needs to be done doesnt change for many public servants so they will be run off their feet and/or stressed by backlogs rather than in lower average public sector wage countries where they have more staff per capita and their services run smoothly and gives staff a much better work environment.

ParkRunner

WalterMitty wrote: »

Every national pay deal over last 20 years had an "inability to pay" clause in it AFAIR , why hasnt this been invoked or at least threatened?

Towards 2016 is long since dead in the public sector anyway. It is still holding as far as I know in some areas of the private sector.

sarumite

EF wrote: »

Staff can be redeployed if needs be for example where quangos are merging. This is happening a lot lately and is cutting costs which would otherwise be spent on having two different organisations operating seperately. Where an essential vacancy exists the Minister for Finance can sanction posts to be filled and this has also been happening. Again there is nothing to prevent the government introducing targetted voluntary redundancy

As you rightly pointed out you cannot have admin staff doing the job of the 'front-line' staff. The point I am making is that the CPA does not allow the government the oppurtunity to use its finite resources as best as it possibly can. Your argument was that "Abandoning the CPA and having compulsory redundancies would not be the normal practice", that is what I am disagreeing with.

heybaby

WalterMitty wrote: »

If we paid the firemen the same rates as in rest Europe we could afford to recruit more of them and not need overtime! Ya see the higher the average wage in public sector the less people can be employed for a fixed amount of budget, and the amount of work that needs to be done doesnt change for many public servants so they will be run off their feet and/or stressed by backlogs rather than in lower average public sector wage countries where they have more staff per capita and their services run smoothly and gives staff a much better work environment.

I agree. My mate works as a civil servant and recently retuirned to work after being off work sick for 6 months, no issue with that, but i was staggered to hear that not a single person did any of his work while he was off sick!!! To say the public service is inefficient and inept is an understatement of extreme proportions.

Public service numbers need to drop by 40 %

Public service pay needs to fall to levels in line with the european average

Public sector workers should not be on permanent contracts, temporary contracts which are constantly performance reviewed after 6 months should be the norm, this goes for every public sector worker including gardai, doctors etc

reduction of the armed forces in this country by 90% ,why do we have an army? who is going to invade us? granted we do fine work in our peacekeeping role, so let that remain but theres no need to have 9000 people in the army, why for instance do we have more army generals in this country than they do in the USA ???

Increase the pension age to 70 for everyone in the country.

Rip up the croke park agreement once and for all. workers rights are protected by the laws of the land and by european law, anything in excess of rights and conditions provided for by law is simply unions attempting to feather public sector workers' nests. The unions' favourite Jim Larkin would be rolling in his grave if he saw how public sector workers and their grossly overpaid union leaders have held this country to ransom over the past 20 years. Rant over.

ParkRunner

sarumite wrote: »

As you rightly pointed out you cannot have admin staff doing the job of the 'front-line' staff. The point I am making is that the CPA does not allow the government the oppurtunity to use its finite resources as best as it possibly can. Your argument was that "Abandoning the CPA and having compulsory redundancies would not be the normal practice", that is what I am disagreeing with.

What staff would you make compulsorily redundant though? The only area where there is still too many back office staff is probably the HSE in my opinion. Staff are still needed to answer parliamentary questions, oireachtas questions, freedom of information requests, requests from the comptroller and auditor general and other auditors, queries from the public,...processing of applications/claims, defending legal challenges, man public offices etc.
The public sector requires more admin staff than in general due to the nature of it.

Dannyboy83

swordofislam wrote: »

I suppose you won't mind when your mothers' houses burn down because there is no overtime for firemen?

Leaving aside the issue of private firms, there have been volunteer firefighters as long as there have been paid firefighters.

When the system is warped, society generally finds a way to innovate and/or correct it.
Usually the more warped the system, the more innovative the response.

sarumite

EF wrote: »

What staff would you make compulsorily redundant though? The only area where there is still too many back office staff is probably the HSE in my opinion. Staff are still needed to answer parliamentary questions, oireachtas questions, freedom of information requests, requests from the comptroller and auditor general and other auditors, queries from the public,...processing of applications/claims, defending legal challenges, man public offices etc.
The public sector requires more admin staff than in general due to the nature of it.

I am not specifally stating that there has to be compulsory redundancies. Merely that "having compulsory redundancies would not be the normal practice" isn't the case given the current economic condition and the actions of other employers under these conditions. I was mrerely saying that abandoning the CPA would give the government greater flexibility on how to allocate its resources and avoid situations as has been implicated in this thread. IF the government feels compulsory redundancies are necessary and beneficial to the taxpayer, then at least give them that option. I am not suggesting that they necessarily have to avail of it.

ParkRunner

sarumite wrote: »

I am not specifally stating that there has to be compulsory redundancies. Merely that "having compulsory redundancies would not be the normal practice" isn't the case given the current economic condition and the actions of other employers under these conditions. I was mrerely saying that abandoning the CPA would give the government greater flexibility on how to allocate its resources and avoid situations as has been implicated in this thread. IF the government feels compulsory redundancies are necessary and beneficial to the taxpayer, then at least give them that option. I am not suggesting that they necessarily have to avail of it.

Fair enough. Compulsory redundancies would not be normal practice at the beginning of any reform practice is what I should have said. Voluntary redundancies are the normal starting point to see if the situation can be resolved. I don't think the government has gone far enough down that route yet to start making people compulsorily redundant.

Lumbo

heybaby wrote: »

Public sector workers should not be on permanent contracts, temporary contracts which are constantly performance reviewed after 6 months should be the norm, this goes for every public sector worker including gardai, doctors etc

Ever heard of a contract of indefinate duration? You should look it up before you continue with any more of your rants.

Godge

heybaby wrote: »

I agree. My mate works as a civil servant and recently retuirned to work after being off work sick for 6 months, no issue with that, but i was staggered to hear that not a single person did any of his work while he was off sick!!! To say the public service is inefficient and inept is an understatement of extreme proportions.

Public service numbers need to drop by 40 %

Public service pay needs to fall to levels in line with the european average

Public sector workers should not be on permanent contracts, temporary contracts which are constantly performance reviewed after 6 months should be the norm, this goes for every public sector worker including gardai, doctors etc

reduction of the armed forces in this country by 90% ,why do we have an army? who is going to invade us? granted we do fine work in our peacekeeping role, so let that remain but theres no need to have 9000 people in the army, why for instance do we have more army generals in this country than they do in the USA ???

Increase the pension age to 70 for everyone in the country.

Rip up the croke park agreement once and for all. workers rights are protected by the laws of the land and by european law, anything in excess of rights and conditions provided for by law is simply unions attempting to feather public sector workers' nests. The unions' favourite Jim Larkin would be rolling in his grave if he saw how public sector workers and their grossly overpaid union leaders have held this country to ransom over the past 20 years. Rant over.

What a stupid ill-informed rant. Have a look at the law of the land - I will even be nice and pick out the part of the law that applies - Section 9 of the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term Act), 2003

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0029/sec0009.html#sec9

Now show me how public service employees can be put on temporary contracts and reviewed every six months?

Gumbo

WalterMitty wrote: »

Of course if all HSE staff who are on less than 39hour weeks did 39hours (after breaks etc) then the need fo overtime would a lot less and those savings could cut deficit.

you have posted this statement in a few different posts over a few different threads?
what does it mean?

If i work 9-5 mon-fri then i still cannot work a 39 hour week?
i dont get the statement?

eigrod

heybaby wrote: »

Public sector workers should not be on permanent contracts, temporary contracts which are constantly performance reviewed after 6 months should be the norm, this goes for every public sector worker including gardai, doctors etc

Except that's illegal.

WalterMitty

kceire wrote: »

you have posted this statement in a few different posts over a few different threads?
what does it mean?

If i work 9-5 mon-fri then i still cannot work a 39 hour week?
i dont get the statement?

Lots of public servants are on 32 hour contracts in like of HSE. For the money they are on 39 hours would be fairer.

Gumbo

WalterMitty wrote: »

Lots of public servants are on 32 hour contracts in like of HSE. For the money they are on 39 hours would be fairer.

any examples?
Anu nurses i know (dont know any doctors) work more than this. when the GF was in the rotunda, the nurse was telling me it was his 4th night in a row, 12 hour shift. IIRC 7pm-7am. Although he did say he ha the next 3 days off to relax which is fair enough.

WalterMitty

kceire wrote: »

any examples?
Anu nurses i know (dont know any doctors) work more than this. when the GF was in the rotunda, the nurse was telling me it was his 4th night in a row, 12 hour shift. IIRC 7pm-7am. Although he did say he ha the next 3 days off to relax which is fair enough.

Yeah i know one guy who was a physio in one of the Dublin hospitals straight out of college several years ago. His hours were great, something like 9-4 with breaks in that time so he was actually working less than his 32 contracted hours and money was great but he decided he leave and go into a private place as he wanted to work in a more specialised area of physio. The same type of graduates coming out of university now cant get any paid work and will have to emmigrate or scratch a subsistence living in private sector even though we arguably need more physiotherapist in public sector.
Martin Wall was talking about this issue on radio last week saying it was a major issue in why overtime had to be incurred.

tayto lover

The same old jealousy continues unabated.
Why do you lot not do what I did many years ago i.e. go and seek better jobs and conditions instead of trying to drag other peoples down to your level.
Don't come back and say they are not there or nobody can afford to pay us better money. People said that to me too years ago but i proved them wrong. I left teaching and started my own business. Now is a time of great opportunity. Stop whinging and start doing.

Head The Wall

heybaby wrote: »

I agree. My mate works as a civil servant and recently retuirned to work after being off work sick for 6 months, no issue with that, but i was staggered to hear that not a single person did any of his work while he was off sick!!!

Your friends job serves no purpose if it can go undone for six months, that position needs to be made redundant

Gumbo

Head The Wall wrote: »

Your friends job serves no purpose if it can go undone for six months, that position needs to be made redundant

More than likely the comment is made up. no matter what kind of pen pushing job you have, the people putting those pens on your desk will not put them there when your out sick, especially long term.

nursextreme

So yet again we have another proposed cut on the public servants to be, the unions don't give a toss about future members so any objections by Liam Doran etc are only face saving gestures. What should be done is everyone takes a percentage cut on premiums. A cut like this would really only apply to those who work unsociable hours so wont apply to the majority of staff.

Although overtime has been curtailed recently in exchange for time in lieu next year (the problem of making up all those hours can go on the long finger) but at least its not costing time and a half.

What is it with overtime? Some people believe that it is their divine right to work so many days OT per month they are feeling the pinch now, greedy "individuals".
One example from my area Mental Health is:

A draft proposal prepared by mental health bosses in order to reduce overtime and agency use says that in 2010, €15.2m was paid out on overtime, while €7m was paid for agency nurses.

The document states the "routine use" of agency staff and overtime to fulfil rosters "must be eliminated".

It says that agency work is a "perverse incentive" for graduates, and introducing a cost-competitive contract will remove this.


In relation to overtime, the document says that the premium paid for overtime is compounded by the fact that a senior staff member is paid an overtime rate on their substantial grade rather than at staff nurse rates.

It says recruiting graduates represents a very good value for money profile when compared to more senior colleagues on overtime.

"To replace overtime spending 200 graduates could be employed for €8.8m. In light of the continuing capacity loss through retirement it should be noted the need greatly exceeds 200, however."

Negative consequences of the routine use of overtime are outlined as:

* Degrading the staff’s work-life experience.

* Reducing the staff member’s capacity to rest and restore.

* Family unfriendly and stress-generating.

* More expensive and poorer quality.

* Becoming embedded in the staffs’ earning expectations.

* Being divisive as not all staff can equally avail of it.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/22m-spent-on-mental-health-agency-staff-overtime-163676.html#.TkTwD3GzOh0.twitter#ixzz1Uu0GXMlp

So in a nutshell what they spent in overtime in Mental Health Nursing alone could have employed 400 people who are already trained in this specific area. I actual fact some people cashed in on the recruitment embargo and the unions were lauded. The CPA facilitates this! This example may not apply to the Public Sector in general but it still happens.
Looks like the plan is (when they do start hiring again) is to create a two tier public service and eventually hope the older more expensive tier eventually dies out, or retires on a generous pension. That's not reform

irishh_bob

kceire wrote: »

any examples?
Anu nurses i know (dont know any doctors) work more than this. when the GF was in the rotunda, the nurse was telling me it was his 4th night in a row, 12 hour shift. IIRC 7pm-7am. Although he did say he ha the next 3 days off to relax which is fair enough.

nurses dont work 48 hour weeks

Gumbo

irishh_bob wrote: »

nurses dont work 48 hour weeks

technically, either do i, but ive done a few.

Icepick

They need to freeze increments and cut salaries of workers who already reached the higher levels of the incremental scale.

This craziness has to stop:
State employees earn €268 more per week than private workers

BillyHasMates

heybaby wrote: »

Public sector workers should not be on permanent contracts, temporary contracts which are constantly performance reviewed after 6 months should be the norm, this goes for every public sector worker including gardai, doctors etc

Just as a matter of interest how do you propose to grade the performance levels of frontline workers such as Gardaí, Nurses, Firemen or Paramedics?

uncle_sam_ie

Icepick wrote: »

They need to freeze increments and cut salaries of workers who already reached the higher levels of the incremental scale.

This craziness has to stop:
State employees earn €268 more per week than private workers

They need to privatise the health service and make you pay for your own health care.

Benny_Cake

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'd argue equally that there is nothing at all normal about the situation that the CPA was meant to be fixing. A voluntary redundancy problem will not solve the problem of career bean counters in civil service positions, at HEO, Assistant Principal and Principal level, on 60K and upwards due to years of automatic increments, who have no intention of going anywhere.

The top salary for a HEO is below 60K, and that is after many years of service.It makes me laugh that someone working in administration is automatically a "bean counter".The variety of work a HEO might be doing is quite diverse,from making presentations in a Refugee Appeals case to carrying out investigations into Social Welfare fraud.In any case,any large organisation,public or private sector will need people there to do the Administration work-from my own experience in the civil service most people do a decent day's work,in my own section we have lost a good number of staff but we get on with it.As regards overttime,I've never had any so this won't affect me.

For all the complaining about Croke Park,btw,something people forget is that it will expire in 2014.The government will be able to make pay cuts then,having got the reforms they wanted.So don't think there won't be further pay cuts.

Benny_Cake

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

They need to privatise the health service and make you pay for your own health care.

Care to explain how that would work for the person in an average job?

Bumski

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

They need to privatise the health service and make you pay for your own health care.

That's right, and if you can't afford it then tough! Suffer the pain or die and think to yourself - this is the American dream

and while they're at they could completely privatise the education system, other emergency services and all other services.

If you can't pay for the firemen on the spot then don't call them. Plus the state could save a fortune by not paying for the education of the next generation..... if the parents aren't willing to pay then why should society?:rolleyes:

uncle_sam_ie

Bumski wrote: »

That's right, and if you can't afford it then tough! Suffer the pain or die and think to yourself - this is the American dream

and while they're at they could completely privatise the education system, other emergency services and all other services.

If you can't pay for the firemen on the spot then don't call them. Plus the state could save a fortune by not paying for the education of the next generation..... if the parents aren't willing to pay then why should society?:rolleyes:

That's my point exactly. But,Joe public seem fine with screwing nurses out of their hard earned pay. They have skills that can travel and that are in demand. Maybe Joe public should stop taking them for granted.

woodoo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Until I see something along the lines of "CPA broken"

Don't hold your breath. Richard Bruton was on Vincent Brown the other night and they wanted the CPA to stay as they have reforms to implement. They don't want to have industrial disputes.

irishh_bob

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

That's my point exactly. But,Joe public seem fine with screwing nurses out of their hard earned pay. They have skills that can travel and that are in demand. Maybe Joe public should stop taking them for granted.

are you serious ? , nurses are next to godliness in ireland , always have been , they are the ultimate sacred cows in the public sector , they are also extremley well paid in this country

Benny_Cake

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

That's my point exactly. But,Joe public seem fine with screwing nurses out of their hard earned pay. They have skills that can travel and that are in demand. Maybe Joe public should stop taking them for granted.

Apologies,I didn't pick up the sarcasm in your earlier post.Some people around here would privatise air given half a chance!

Benny_Cake

irishh_bob wrote: »

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

That's my point exactly. But,Joe public seem fine with screwing nurses out of their hard earned pay. They have skills that can travel and that are in demand. Maybe Joe public should stop taking them for granted.

are you serious ? , nurses are next to godliness in ireland , always have been , they are the ultimate sacred cows in the public sector , they are also extremley well paid in this country

Why are so many heading abroad for work then if they have it so good here?

irishh_bob

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Why are so many heading abroad for work then if they have it so good here?

probabley because we are over run with nurses and thier is a hiring freeze in the public sector , we have twice as many per head as france which is seen as having one of the best health services in europe , theese facts seem to be ignored though , thier seems to be a common perception that you can never have enough nurses

HellFireClub

Benny_Cake wrote: »

The top salary for a HEO is below 60K, and that is after many years of service.It makes me laugh that someone working in administration is automatically a "bean counter".The variety of work a HEO might be doing is quite diverse,from making presentations in a Refugee Appeals case to carrying out investigations into Social Welfare fraud.In any case,any large organisation,public or private sector will need people there to do the Administration work-from my own experience in the civil service most people do a decent day's work,in my own section we have lost a good number of staff but we get on with it.As regards overttime,I've never had any so this won't affect me.

For all the complaining about Croke Park,btw,something people forget is that it will expire in 2014.The government will be able to make pay cuts then,having got the reforms they wanted.So don't think there won't be further pay cuts.

First of all, 60K in the private sector as far as I'm concerned, is a massive salary. You wouldn't get that kind of salary for an admin role, and if you are processing paperwork for a refugee appeals board or processing paperwork for a social welfare fraud investigation, that's what you are doing, an admin role.

It's not just at the HEO/AP/P roles we have delusion, I've just seen a report on RTE News on the top lads in the semi-states, paid 1.5-2 times the salary of the Taoiseach. More madness, and more of the same treatment, going in and asking for a 15% cut?!?

Two actions need to happen here:

(1) Bring in emergency legislation to cut their salaries back to 30% below the Taoiseacht's salary, in line with their set of responsibilities

(2) Locate the people in the PS who authorised these insane salaries and fire them immediately.

It's long since past time for asking nicely for 15% pay cuts for people who are 2-3 times better paid than the US President. It's a joke, just use legisation, (the kind of legislation that the rest of us will be looking at in a fortnight to take more money off us), and get on with it!

I'd love to take some PS workers and show them what a week is like in a private sector business at the moment, where the choice is either cut the cost of running the place immediately or close the f*cking door.