Catholic Freemasons?

Brown Bomber

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable might be able to help me out on this. Am I right in saying that masons allow Catholic members but any Catholic who joins the masons should automatically be ex-communicated?

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.
This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.
Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.
It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9March 1981).
In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.
Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.

Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect

+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

And therefore any active mason who claims to be a member of the Catholic church is deluding themselves, denying Papal infallibility, is not in fact a member of the Church and is completely hypocritical?

Thanks in advance,

Onesimus

Yes!! I know of only one Catholic man who used to be a Catholic Freemason but is now repentant and returned to the Church and has exposed everything about freemasonry in his books. His name is ''John Salza'' and his books can be found on his website at ''www.scpripturecatholic.com''

I hope this helps.

Freemasonry has infilitrated the Church at large including clergymen i.e the recent post on Fr.Rohr.

The Quadratic Equation

The Freemasons, and the Northern Ireland offshoot, the Orange Order (Specifically dedicated to being anti-Catholic) are a gnostic cult that uses the character "Hiram Abiff", the "widows son" as their Messiah in a version of the Egyptian story of the pagan gods of Isis and Osiris. They use also use Christian images and terms from the bible to suck members from a Christian background in. Freemasons accept Catholics as members (the Catholic church forbids Catholics from joining), the Orange Order, needless to say does not let Catholics join, and severely sanctions any member that attends a Catholic wedding / funeral etc.

Masons have mixed idolatry, paganism, the occult, Gnosticism, Kabala, fertility cults, Satanism, spiritualism, demonology, and put it into a blender.

Read testimonies from ex members from Northern Ireland here : http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/chapter6.html

Peregrinus

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable might be able to help me out on this. Am I right in saying that masons allow Catholic members but any Catholic who joins the masons should automatically be ex-communicated?

And therefore any active mason who claims to be a member of the Catholic church is deluding themselves, denying Papal infallibility, is not in fact a member of the Church and is completely hypocritical?

No, you’re wrong. There’s a couple of misunderstandings.

1. It used to be a rule of canon law that a Catholic joining the Masons is automatically excommunicated, by the fact of having joined, even if the church authorities are unaware of the fact. But there is no longer such a rule.

2. The text you quote doesn’t say that, despite the absence of an explicit rule in the code of canon law, Catholics are still excommunicated. It says that joining the masons is still gravely sinful, and (as always) a person in a state of grave sin should not take communion. Being unable to take communion because you are in a state of sin is not at all the same thing as being under the canonical penalty of excommunication.

3. Although there is no automatic excommunication, a bishop could (probably) decide to impose the canonical penalty of excommunication on someone who joined the masons. (Obviously, the bishop would have to get to hear about it first.) I’m not aware if many, or any, bishops do this.

4. Being unable to receive communion because you are in a state of sin does not (in the Catholic view) mean that you are not a Catholic, or not a member of the church. On the contrary, you are a Catholic in need of sacramental reconciliation.

5. Slightly surprisingly, being canonically excommunicated, even if that happens, still does not mean that you are not a Catholic or not a member of the church. You are a Catholic who is subject to the canonical penalty of excommunication, but a Catholic nevertheless.

6. A person who commits the sin of joining the masons (or any other grave sin) might be deluding himself, or he might be completely hypocritical, but a moment’s thought will show that he can’t be both. If he thinks that something which is gravely wrong is right he is deluding himself, but he is not hypocritical in doing what he thinks is right. On the other hand, if he thinks that it’s wrong but does it anyway he might be hypocritical, but he’s not deluding himself.

7. In neither case is a person who joins the masons denying papal infallibility. In certain rather narrowly-drawn conditions the charism of infallibility attaches to the pope’s solemnly-pronounced teachings on faith and morals, but this is (a) not solemnly-pronounced and, more to the point, (b) not a teaching on faith and morals. This is a disciplinary matter. Obedience or disobedience has no implications for papal infallibility.

soterpisc

Given the very close links between the Orange Order and the Masonic order in ireland i dont expect there are many catholics in there...

Absolam

The Freemasons are not associated with the Orange Order.

Helix

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

cult that uses the character "Hiram Abiff", the "widows son" as their Messiah in a version of the Egyptian story of the pagan gods of Isis and Osiris.

there is no "messiah" in freemasonry. in order to be a freemason, you must accept that there is a higher intelligence. that's as specific as it gets

The Quadratic Equation

Helix wrote: »

there is no "messiah" in freemasonry. in order to be a freemason, you must accept that there is a higher intelligence. that's as specific as it gets

At the lower levels only.

Brown Bomber

Thanks for all your responses. They far exceeded my expectations.

Brown Bomber

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, you’re wrong. There’s a couple of misunderstandings.

1. It used to be a rule of canon law that a Catholic joining the Masons is automatically excommunicated, by the fact of having joined, even if the church authorities are unaware of the fact. But there is no longer such a rule.

What evidence is there of this?

Peregrinus wrote: »

2. The text you quote doesn’t say that, despite the absence of an explicit rule in the code of canon law, Catholics are still excommunicated. It says that joining the masons is still gravely sinful, and (as always) a person in a state of grave sin should not take communion. Being unable to take communion because you are in a state of sin is not at all the same thing as being under the canonical penalty of excommunication.

Excommunication is exactly that - "being unable to take Communion".

Excommunication (Latin ex, out of, and communio or communicatio, communion — exclusion from the communion), the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society. Being a penalty, it supposes guilt; and being the most serious penalty that the Church can inflict, it naturally supposes a very grave offence.
The Catholic Encyclopedia[

Brown Bomber

Peregrinus wrote: »

6. A person who commits the sin of joining the masons (or any other grave sin) might be deluding himself, or he might be completely hypocritical, but a moment’s thought will show that he can’t be both. If he thinks that something which is gravely wrong is right he is deluding himself, but he is not hypocritical in doing what he thinks is right. On the other hand, if he thinks that it’s wrong but does it anyway he might be hypocritical, but he’s not deluding himself.

In this context I don't see how delusion and hypocrisy are mutually exclusive. The Catholic mason is deluding themselves that their judgements on what it means to be a Catholic is over and above what the Church decides itself. The hypocrisy is that they claim to follow the teachings of a church whilst wilfully ignoring it's rulings.

Absolam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

At the lower levels only.

Not according to Freemasonry. The last bastion of the conspiracy theorists is that only the 'higher levels' of the Order know what's really going on (and of course the Conspiracy theorists!). The idea that an organisation could keep a secret agenda from millions of its members for centuries, yet have that agenda exposed by people who have no first hand knowledge of the organisation is just silly.

Absolam

Brown Bomber wrote: »

In this context I don't see how delusion and hypocrisy are mutually exclusive. The Catholic mason is deluding themselves that their judgements on what it means to be a Catholic is over and above what the Church decides itself. The hypocrisy is that they claim to follow the teachings of a church whilst wilfully ignoring it's rulings.

I think you're positing a very strict definition of what it is to be Catholic. In absolute terms, any Roman Catholic who does not follow all of the precepts and teachings strictly, is not a Roman Catholic because they do notmeet the definition. But in real terms, that means the vast majority of Catholics are not Catholics, or perhaps more accurately are lapsed Catholics. A man who is a Roman Catholic and chooses to be a Freemason is choosing to sin in the eyes of the Church. That might be because he doesn't know it's a sin, or because he disagrees it's a sin, or doesn't care it's a sin. He can be absolved of that sin, if he repents. But it doesn't neccasarily mean that he is judging for himself what it is to be Roman Catholic, or that he is claiming to follow teachings whilst not following them. The same can be said of Roman Catholics who have sex before marriage, or use contraception, or charge interest on loans, or regulary, or consistently, commit thousands of other sins on a regular basis... they would still feel they are Roman Catholics and I doubt the Church would say they are not.

The Quadratic Equation

Absolam wrote: »

Not according to Freemasonry. The last bastion of the conspiracy theorists is that only the 'higher levels' of the Order know what's really going on (and of course the Conspiracy theorists!). The idea that an organisation could keep a secret agenda from millions of its members for centuries, yet have that agenda exposed by people who have no first hand knowledge of the organisation is just silly.

The standard, and expected, first line of defence.

Thanks to personal testimonies of former masons, and the modern ability to publish them, we now know better.

It is a Gnostic sect.

Here's the testimony of lawyer, and a Catholic, who was formerly a high ranking, 32nd degree Mason.
There are hundreds more similar testimonies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stu6rTacfAk

Brown Bomber

Absolam wrote: »

I think you're positing a very strict definition of what it is to be Catholic. In absolute terms, any Roman Catholic who does not follow all of the precepts and teachings strictly, is not a Roman Catholic because they do notmeet the definition. But in real terms, that means the vast majority of Catholics are not Catholics, or perhaps more accurately are lapsed Catholics. A man who is a Roman Catholic and chooses to be a Freemason is choosing to sin in the eyes of the Church. That might be because he doesn't know it's a sin, or because he disagrees it's a sin, or doesn't care it's a sin. He can be absolved of that sin, if he repents. But it doesn't neccasarily mean that he is judging for himself what it is to be Roman Catholic, or that he is claiming to follow teachings whilst not following them. The same can be said of Roman Catholics who have sex before marriage, or use contraception, or charge interest on loans, or regulary, or consistently, commit thousands of other sins on a regular basis... they would still feel they are Roman Catholics and I doubt the Church would say they are not.

There is a distinction to be made between the Catholic-baptised mason who bins his apron and repents and the hypocritical, Catholic mason who doesn't repent and continues his lodge membership and proclaims to be a Catholic.

Absolam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

The standard, and expected, first line of defence.

Thanks to personal testimonies of former masons, and the modern ability to publish them, we now know better.

It is a Gnostic sect.

And yet there are millions of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Freemasons who disagree with you... and Salza. the ability to publish opinions isn't modern... anti Masons have been publishing their opinions for over a century. Being able to find opinions on the internet doesn't mean we know better, we just have more opinions to choose from.

Absolam

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There is a distinction to be made between the Catholic-baptised mason who bins his apron and repents and the hypocritical, Catholic mason who doesn't repent and continues his lodge membership and proclaims to be a Catholic.

Yes; the distinction is they each have a different opinions of what they are doing. But both probably consider themselves to be Catholic (except for the Catholic-baptised mason who bins his apron and repents and becomes a buddhist).

The Quadratic Equation

Absolam wrote: »

And yet there are millions of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Freemasons who disagree with you... and Salza. the ability to publish opinions isn't modern... anti Masons have been publishing their opinions for over a century. Being able to find opinions on the internet doesn't mean we know better, we just have more opinions to choose from.

You can pretend to call yourself a Christian and be a Freemason, but you cannot be Christian and a Freemason. That's not just a Catholic teaching.

Gnosticism is not Chistian.

Secretism is not only non-Christian, it is anti-Christian.

http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/freemasonry.html

More testimonies from former freemasons :

http://iamamason2.wordpress.com/

Absolam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

You can pretend to call yourself a Christian and be a Freemason, but you cannot be Christian and a Freemason. That's not just a Catholic teaching.

Well, no, you can be a Christian and a Freemason. Just certain Christian organisations don't like their members to be Freemasons. Primarily because Freemasonry does not promote the primacy of the Christian faith, and accepts anyone who believes in a supreme being.

Gnosticism you are correct is not always Christian; there are Judaic and other versions as well. Gnostics are welcome to join the Freemasons, just as other versions of Christians are.

And Syncretism (I think you mean, rather then Secretism) whilst endemic in Christianity (just look at the Latter Day Saints, or South American christianity, or Protestantism generally) is not a feature of Freemasonry, Freemasons don't combine religions, they just acknowledge the existance of them.

Brown Bomber

Absolam wrote: »

Yes; the distinction is they each have a different opinions of what they are doing. But both probably consider themselves to be Catholic (except for the Catholic-baptised mason who bins his apron and repents and becomes a buddhist).

And this is where the hypocrisy comes in. Membership of a masonic lodge is strictly forbidden by the Church and comes with the ultimate penalty - excommunication.

Continued membership of the lodge is a statement of intent that you are to disregard the church/society's own rules on membership responsibilities and place yourself by choice in self-imposed exile.

This is not comparable to individual sins carried out by individual Catholics as you've mentioned as the Freemason is in a state of grave sin continuously by virtue of their membership. A better comparison would be a Catholic Dr. who unapologetically opens an abortion clinic and claims to be an observant Catholic.

Absolam

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And this is where the hypocrisy comes in. Membership of a masonic lodge is strictly forbidden by the Church and comes with the ultimate penalty - excommunication.

Continued membership of the lodge is a statement of intent that you are to disregard the church/society's own rules on membership responsibilities and place yourself by choice in self-imposed exile.

This is not comparable to individual sins carried out by individual Catholics as you've mentioned as the Freemason is in a state of grave sin continuously by virtue of their membership. A better comparison would be a Catholic Dr. who unapologetically opens an abortion clinic and claims to be an observant Catholic.

No; membership is a grave sin, which may be repented and absolved. That was the conclusion of Card. Ratzinger, who hasn't exactly been slow to pronounce excommunication latae sententiae in other circumstances, yet refrained from it in this case.
I don't believe the Church has made any pronouncement recently on continued membership being a statement of intent?
I've no real idea how one might compare sins, but the Church divides them into mortal and venial, and again Card. Ratzingers Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has reiterated that "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae", so it does appear the Church does not find the two comparable.

J C

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

You can pretend to call yourself a Christian and be a Freemason, but you cannot be Christian and a Freemason. That's not just a Catholic teaching.

The Vatican has its own Masonic Lodges !!

... so I guess if it's in the Vatican ... it must be Roman Catholic!!!;)

The penalty of excommunication was removed in the latest Code of Canon Law.

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Gnosticism is not Chistian.

Secretism is not only non-Christian, it is anti-Christian.

http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/freemasonry.html

More testimonies from former freemasons :

http://iamamason2.wordpress.com/

Masonry is Luciferian in the higher degrees ... and Gnostic, Syncretic and anti-Christian in the lower degrees.
The name of Jesus Christ is not allowed to be mentioned in any Lodge Meeting.

The Quadratic Equation

J C wrote: »

The Vatican has its own Masonic Lodges !!

... so I guess if it's in the Vatican ... it must be Roman Catholic!!!;)

Oh dear, someone's been at the Dan Brown fantasy novels again.

Tell us, is that why the Pope forbids the giving of commuinion to any Catholic that joins the freemasons ?

laoch na mona

what kind of people are in the freemasons

J C

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Oh dear, someone's been at the Dan Brown fantasy novels again.

Tell us, is that why the Pope forbids the giving of commuinion to any Catholic that joins the freemasons ?

Given the fact that known Roman Catholic freemasons regularly receive communion ... you tell me???

The Quadratic Equation

laoch na mona wrote: »

what kind of people are in the freemasons

There's two kinds that join : The gullible and the users of same.

The Quadratic Equation

J C wrote: »

Given the fact that known Roman Catholic freemasons regularly receive communion ... you tell me???

Your source ? Don't tell me, Dan Brown or de tinternet ?

J C

laoch na mona wrote: »

what kind of people are in the freemasons

Men.

J C

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Your source ? Don't tell me, Dan Brown or de tinternet ?

Neither.

lmaopml

Welcome back JC. People love to disagree with you all the time, but you are persistent in so many ways - The Creation thread is alive and well...

good luck.

Absolam

J C wrote: »

Masonry is Luciferian in the higher degrees ... and Gnostic, Secretic and anti-Christian in the lower degrees.
The name of Jesus Christ is not allowed to be mentioned in any Lodge Meeting.

In the spirit of disclosure I should point out that the name of no god is allowed to be mentioned in any lodge meeting. No Gnostic, Secretic, Judaic, Hindu, Christian (including Luciferian) gods get a mention.

Absolam

laoch na mona wrote: »

what kind of people are in the freemasons

Me . Apparently I'm gullible or a user of the same. Pleased to meet you.

J C

Absolam wrote: »

In the spirit of disclosure I should point out that the name of no god is allowed to be mentioned in any lodge meeting. No Gnostic, Secretic, Judaic, Hindu, Christian (including Luciferian) gods get a mention.

'Disclosure' isn't one of it's core principles!!!:D

... is 'Jahbulon' ever mentioned?

Newsite

Absolam wrote: »

In the spirit of disclosure I should point out that the name of no god is allowed to be mentioned in any lodge meeting. No Gnostic, Secretic, Judaic, Hindu, Christian (including Luciferian) gods get a mention.

And considering everything works through symbolism, signs and secrecy, this is exactly what you would expect

J C

Absolam wrote: »

Me . Apparently I'm gullible or a user of the same. Pleased to meet you.

Jesus loves you ... and wants to Save YOU.

Absolam

J C wrote: »

Are you only in the Blue Lodge ... or have you got to meet Lucifer yet?

I'm a member of the Blue and most of the appendant bodies, but I've yet to meet any supernatural entities at all... Very disappointing I know!

J C

Absolam wrote: »

I'm a member of the Blue and most of the appendant bodies, but I've yet to meet any supernatural entities at all... Very disappointing I know!

... are you a professing Christian/Roman Catholic?

The Quadratic Equation

Absolam wrote: »

Me . Apparently I'm gullible or a user of the same. Pleased to meet you.

Then perhaps you'll be so kind to explain to us what each of these symbols on this masons tracing board stand for then :

georgieporgy

Whilst waiting for that reply here's something I lifted from another site written by a canon lawyer;

Far from resolving the confusion, the new Code of Canon Law that was promulgated in 1983 left many Catholics even more perplexed. The corresponding canon in the current law does not even mention Masonry by name. Instead, it uses much broader terminology: anyone who joins an association that plots against the Church is to be punished by a just penalty (c. 1374). This was interpreted by many sincere Catholics as an about-face, and they concluded that under the new law, since many Masonic lodges have no apparent involvement whatsoever in anti-Catholic conspiracies, Catholics are no longer forbidden to join them. To this day, one often hears vague comments about “the spirit of Vatican II” somehow having had a hand in reversing the former ban, and that this constitutes evidence that the Church nowadays is more open and ecumenical than it was before.
What these commentators apparently do not know, however, is that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a Declaration on this very subject in 1983, the same year that the new Code of Canon Law was promulgated. This document provides a theological interpretation of canon 1374. It notes that the new code does not expressly mention Freemasonry because of an “editorial criterion,” which led the Code Commission to avoid mentioning by name specific associations “inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.” The Declaration asserts clearly that “the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged, since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”
Furthermore, the document states unambiguously that local church authorities do not have the authority to make any judgment on this matter that would constitute a relaxation of this ban. In other words, a diocesan bishop or chancery official cannot grant permission in a particular case for a member of the diocese to become a Mason. There are to be no exceptions!


You can read the full article at

http://catholicexchange.com/2008/09/25/113979/

Absolam

georgieporgy wrote: »

Whilst waiting for that reply here's something I lifted from another site written by a canon lawyer

Hi Georgieporgy; the initial post on the thread was the Declaration on Masonic Associations by Card Ratzinger.

J C wrote: »

... are you a professing Christian/Roman Catholic?

I'm not JC. Nor am I a Gnostic in case you're wondering Or even a Luciferian...

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Then perhaps you'll be so kind to explain to us what each of these symbols on this masons tracing board stand for then :

Well, maybe I'm not so gullible then. The symbols on a tracing board are used to explain various things to Freemasons TQE. But you're not a Freemason?

The Quadratic Equation

Absolam wrote: »

The symbols on a tracing board are used to explain various things to Freemasons TQE. But you're not a Freemason?

So what do each of the symbols stand for then ?

Absolam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So what do each of the symbols stand for then ?

Sorry, i was obviously obtuse. If you were a Freemason, I'd tell you. Since you're not, I won't. Hope that's clearer

The Quadratic Equation

Absolam wrote: »

Sorry, i was obviously obtuse. If you were a Freemason, I'd tell you. Since you're not, I won't. Hope that's clearer

What is there to hide ?

Absolam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

What is there to hide ?

Why would you think there's anything to hide?

J C

Absolam wrote: »

Why would you think there's anything to hide?

There is plently to hide allright!!!
... that is why Masonry is a secret organistion with secrets.

The whole thing is a 'tree' or organised system of hidden (or occult) knowledge!!!.

They hide knowledge from their own members through their 'degree' systems ... and they hide knowledge from the general public through their initiation requirements.

... and TQE, you are better off not knowing any of this stuff.

J C

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So what do each of the symbols stand for then ?

They symbolise different things for different degrees ... and you are better off not knowing.

Absolam

J C wrote: »

There is plently to hide allright!!!
... that is why Masonry is a secret organistion with secrets.

The whole thing is a 'tree' or organised system of hidden (or occult) knowledge!!!.

They hide knowledge from their own members through their 'degree' systems ... and they hide knowledge from the general public through their initiation requirements.

... and TQE, you are better off not knowing any of this stuff.

Well, you've got bits right anyways. Masonry is a society with secrets, we've never pretended otherwise. But not a secret organisation; we're in the phone book, there's a big compass and squares over the door in Molesworth St, we have a ton of websites and we publish our calender every year, and our laws and constitutions so anyone who wants can buy a copy and look through them.

Only CTers think we hide 'knowledge' from our members through the degree system; because if we didn't they wouldn't be able to argue that there is 'hidden knowledge' in the face of so many Masons refuting the claim. In order for the conspiracy theories to have any traction, only a couple of people at the very 'top' of Freemasonry (and the Conspiracy Theorists) can know what's going on, so if anyone refutes the argument, they're obviously not at the 'top' of Freemasonry and don't know what's going on. A bit like the my pet rock is god theory; if you don't realise my rock is god, you don't know what you're talking about, and can be ignored. Because my rock said so.

The Quadratic Equation

Absolam wrote: »

A bit like the my pet rock is god theory; if you don't realise my rock is god, you don't know what you're talking about, and can be ignored. Because my rock said so.

Well on the level and by the square, I always wondered how ye managed to get people to whorship master "hiram abiff", and swear to use violence and kill if needs be.

Absolam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Well on the level and by the square, I always wondered how ye managed to get people to whorship master "hiram abiff", and swear to use violence and kill if needs be.

Well if we did, I'm pretty sure anyone who worshipped anything else would immediately leave. Since they don't, I guess that proves that we don't worship master hiram abiff. And why would we swear to use violence and kill if needs be? We're not an army, or a religion!

The Quadratic Equation

J C wrote: »

They symbolise different things for different degrees ... and you are better off not knowing.

I am not the slightest bit intrested in fantasy made up pagan gnostic cult that dresses up in aprons and blindfolds eachother while swearing "secret" oaths to do violence to anyone that "reveals" its pagan nonsense.

What I have against it, is it trying to pretend that it is in any way Christian, and suitable for genuine Christians.

Absolam

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

I am not the slightest bit intrested in fantasy made up pagan gnostic cult that dresses up in aprons and blindfolds eachother while swearing "secret" oaths to do violence to anyone that "reveals" its pagan nonsense.
What I have against it, is it trying to pretend that it is in any way Christian, and suitable for genuine Christians.

well, for someone who's not interested you sure are posting a lot
I will say; the Masonic order does not try to pretend it is in any way Christian, and that is one of the main issues some Christian churches have with the Order. The genuine Christians who are members believe it is suitable for them; and if they ever don't there is nothing to stop them leaving. The genuine Christians who believe it is not suitable for them don't join. And that's quite the way it should be.