Social Welfare in Ireland

seanmc1980

I've has a serious problem with the social welfare system in Ireland at present.
After a quick search you can see the 2009 figures http://crimson-observer.blogspot.com/2010/01/irelands-soaring-social-welfare-bill.html

this report says that social welfare make up nearly 40% of ireland total outgoing clocking in at 21 billion for 2009. (i'm sure it has risen since)
I'm amazed by these figures.
I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this spend if it was spent on eduction, family planning, financial planning or other worth while schemes but as far as i can see its just spent on handing out money to people who have become reliant on it and any suggestion of cuts are greated boo's from the back benchers desperate to hold onto votes.
So has anyone any suggestions on how we can cut the welfare bill in this broke country without pushing poor people into acute poverty

ntlbell

seanmc1980 wrote: »

So has anyone any suggestions on how we can cut the welfare bill in this broke country without pushing poor people into acute poverty

A mandatory financial planning and budgeting 101 course before they collect the first payment? Then slash it accordingly.

death1234567

seanmc1980 wrote: »

So has anyone any suggestions on how we can cut the welfare bill in this broke country without pushing poor people into acute poverty

The current system is fundamentally broken (Child benefit for all, Bosian couple claiming 80,000+ a year in social welfare, etc.). It needs to be replaced by an entirely new system that's desgined from the ground up and is massively simplified and fair for taxpayers and recipients (SP?). Of course this won't happen and we'll continue to snip at the edges of the broken system in bad times and add more payments and complexity in the good times.

pmct

Do we need another feck all social welfare recipenice pay them nothing and make the scrongers get a job or starve thread

ntlbell

pmct wrote: »

Do we need another feck all social welfare recipenice pay them nothing and make the scrongers get a job or starve thread

Did you need to post in another one?

seanmc1980

i agree it broken to pieces, and chipping away at the edges will make a blind bit of difference. I have a few suggestions myself on how we can reduce the bill
1) Social welfare can on be claimed by Irish Citizens. Migrant works should have no right to claim benefits. You benifts is the country is providing a job for you. if teh job is gone, move on.
2) Increase the pension age to 70 for people entering employment now. We are all living much longer healthier lives. in 50 years time 70 won't be an old and peopel will be well able to work
3) limit dole payment to 4 months. After this time you can continue to get the dole if you have entered a relevant education course. failur eto complete the course results in clawback of payments made in the time.
4) Scrap childrens allowance
5) Scrap single mothers allowance and set up a family court that is swift and effective at making fathers contribute and pay maintence for their children.
6) Increase medical Card to 100 euro for year, so you need to contribute say 10 euro for every doctor visit capped at 100 euro. also in crease precription to 1 euro capped at 20 euro a month

thats just a few suggestions

ntlbell

seanmc1980 wrote: »

i agree it broken to pieces, and chipping away at the edges will make a blind bit of difference. I have a few suggestions myself on how we can reduce the bill
1) Social welfare can on be claimed by Irish Citizens. Migrant works should have no right to claim benefits. You benifts is the country is providing a job for you. if teh job is gone, move on.
2) Increase the pension age to 70 for people entering employment now. We are all living much longer healthier lives. in 50 years time 70 won't be an old and peopel will be well able to work
3) limit dole payment to 4 months. After this time you can continue to get the dole if you have entered a relevant education course. failur eto complete the course results in clawback of payments made in the time.
4) Scrap childrens allowance
5) Scrap single mothers allowance and set up a family court that is swift and effective at making fathers contribute and pay maintence for their children.
6) Increase medical Card to 100 euro for year, so you need to contribute say 10 euro for every doctor visit capped at 100 euro. also in crease precription to 1 euro capped at 20 euro a month

thats just a few suggestions

I assume mothers who don't pay maintenance will also be chased in this court of yours?

Just saying.

deisedave

People need to start thinking, there is no jobs at all. Most people want to get employed but the country is in a serious mess. People talk about the unemployed as if they couldnt be arsed working which is a totally different situation at the moment. People complaining about social welfare need to really just think to themselves that they or their family could become unemployed and be in the same situation.

Jaysoose

deisedave wrote: »

People need to start thinking, there is no jobs at all. Most people want to get employed but the country is in a serious mess. People talk about the unemployed as if they couldnt be arsed working which is a totally different situation at the moment. People complaining about social welfare need to really just think to themselves that they or their family could become unemployed and be in the same situation.

There are jobs in certain sectors currently, the IT sector is bouyant at the moment. There are certain sectors that have been decimated but others are doing just fine and there are jobs out there.

seanmc1980

deisedave wrote: »

People need to start thinking, there is no jobs at all. Most people want to get employed but the country is in a serious mess. People talk about the unemployed as if they couldnt be arsed working which is a totally different situation at the moment. People complaining about social welfare need to really just think to themselves that they or their family could become unemployed and be in the same situation.

I can see what your saying but providing a stable lifestyle for someone on benefits is actually causing a lot of the un-employment problems too. Why use your inititive to get a job, upskill or start your own business if you have a pretty confortable life on benefits. I'm of the opinion that unemployments benefits actually hinder econimic growth. thats why i would suggest in finate time for claming benefits. you will be surprised how many people will get back to work

pmct

ntlbell wrote: »

Did you need to post in another one?

I guarantee this tread will split down the middle with the " I have a job so pay little or no dole" brigade on one side and the " I am on the dole and you all don't know how difficult I have it" brigade on the other side

seanmc1980

Jaysoose wrote: »

There are jobs in certain sectors currently, the IT sector is bouyant at the moment. There are certain sectors that have been decimated but others are doing just fine and there are jobs out there.

exactly. the attitude of i'm a builder nothing more nothing less. Up-skill into IT, financial Services, medical systems. I have no problem paying a construction worker to do a degree in say in IT and get him/her back to employment.

seanmc1980

ntlbell wrote: »

I assume mothers who don't pay maintenance will also be chased in this court of yours?

Just saying.

You're being a little bit pedantic

Just saying

ntlbell

Jaysoose wrote: »

There are jobs in certain sectors currently, the IT sector is bouyant at the moment. There are certain sectors that have been decimated but others are doing just fine and there are jobs out there.

Absolutely I've said it many times in this forum over the last few years we're trying to hire constantly, we get little or no CV's in or CV's without the required skills or education, we're not looking for brain surgeons.

There is TONS of work out there the problem is people have gotten used to a certain level of pay and a certain lifestyle that they won't work unless it's a particular field or pays vasts amount of money.

ntlbell

seanmc1980 wrote: »

You're being a little bit pedantic

Just saying

I don't think pointing out that mothers are just as guilty of not paying maitence etc and it's blanket statements like yours that keep the idea it's just men alone.

and instead of apologizing and correcting it, you see it as such an irrelevant point it's pednaticisim

seanmc1980

and instead of contributing to the debate you nit picked at 1 point, i'm not sure of the stats but i would hazzard a guess that 95% of people on SINGLE PARENTS are female unless you factor in widowed males will prob being that stat down a bit.

foggy_lad

ntlbell wrote: »

Absolutely I've said it many times in this forum over the last few years we're trying to hire constantly, we get little or no CV's in or CV's without the required skills or education, we're not looking for brain surgeons.

There is TONS of work out there the problem is people have gotten used to a certain level of pay and a certain lifestyle that they won't work unless it's a particular field or pays vasts amount of money.

People need to ask themselves how far they will go to put food on the table, Fair enough people are losing their jobs but if there are no vacancies in their preferred employment and they are not prepared to work shifts in their local tesco to pay the billls and feed their family what employer would want them?

CamperMan

welfare should be scrapped, no wonder the world is fecked, all these people getting free cash

ntlbell

foggy_lad wrote: »

People need to ask themselves how far they will go to put food on the table, Fair enough people are losing their jobs but if there are no vacancies in their preferred employment and they are not prepared to work shifts in their local tesco to pay the billls and feed their family what employer would want them?

Exactly, this attitude I'm too "good" to work in tesco or mc d's or whatever the case maybe really needs to be shed.

seanmc1980

CamperMan wrote: »

welfare should be scrapped, no wonder the world is fecked, all these people getting free cash

cop on

CamperMan

foggy_lad wrote: »

People need to ask themselves how far they will go to put food on the table, Fair enough people are losing their jobs but if there are no vacancies in their preferred employment and they are not prepared to work shifts in their local tesco to pay the billls and feed their family what employer would want them?

I would do any kind of work to put food on the table.. and I do!

no welfare for me!

Flimbos

seanmc1980 wrote: »

So has anyone any suggestions on how we can cut the welfare bill in this broke country without pushing poor people into acute poverty

Well the blame for the most part can be pointed at our government, past and present. They are our legislators, and they haven't changed much about the welfare system in years. They just increase benefits, and then cut them when it suits. Where is the original thinking, the innovation?

Take training - A lot of the training offered to unemployed people consists of poor quality courses, given by poorly qualified people, and is often not even suitable for them (ex-builders being offered computer courses etc...). FAS needs more than a new name, it needs a total overhaul, they need to bring people in there who have strong HR skills.

When someone loses their job, the first step should not be to sign on, it should be an interview with one of these HR guys. Something that will figure out whether there is work in the person's area, and if not, what type of career path would be suitable. Maybe self employment is an option. Then real support and mentoring, through training etc.

As jobs are scarce, self employment needs to be encouraged. There is an enterprise allowance at present, which allows you to continue to collect benefits for a period while you set up your business and something like this needs to be continued. But maybe if assistance on other matters such as tax was available (and a fairer welfare system for the self employed existed) then self employment might be a viable option for more people.

People do exploit the system, but only because they can, and it's up to the government change the system radically - it's crazy that you can be better off claiming a multitude of benefits than if you were in a well paid job.

seanmc1980 wrote: »

unemployments benefits actually hinder econimic growth.

This hits the nail on the head. If people can be supported through a process of suitable training and mentoring, and welfare rates are gradually brought down to a level where you are better off working, things will improve.

Child Benefit:. This old fashioned notion that it should be a universal payment to the mother, because the father (even a high earner) will spend all of his money and not give the woman cash for the kids... this is crazy and out-dated. Either get rid of this benefit altogether or means test it, with a cut off point when a family are earning a decent income.

Governments haven't means tested it before for fear of it backfiring on them at the ballot boxes, but it has to be done, and can be done easily. And why does the benefit increase, the more kids you have? Surely it should decrease, as the cost of food, toys etc can be shared more easily among a group of kids.

People living at home with their parents should not receive a full dole payment. This was reduced in a recent budget, but (to the best of my knowledge) only for new applicants, so existing claimants continue to receive the full amount.

goose2005

seanmc1980 wrote: »

5) Scrap single mothers allowance and set up a family court that is swift and effective at making fathers contribute and pay maintence for their children.

Why? Women have no obligation to provide for their children, and thousands every year get rid of them via abortion/adoption; why should a man receive decades of obligations after having sex, when no-one would dream of giving women the same obligations.

headmaster

If you know of someone stealing money from the system, phone Social Welfare Fraud 017043000. They will be investigated.

seanmc1980

goose2005 wrote: »

Why? Women have no obligation to provide for their children, and thousands every year get rid of them via abortion/adoption; why should a man receive decades of obligations after having sex, when no-one would dream of giving women the same obligations.

and the award for crack smoker of the week goes to goose2005!!!!!

that post doesn't even deserve an answer

Bannasidhe

goose2005 wrote: »

Why? Women have no obligation to provide for their children, and thousands every year get rid of them via abortion/adoption; why should a man receive decades of obligations after having sex, when no-one would dream of giving women the same obligations.

Why should man not pay if man was stupid, man was silly, man not wear condom on his willy?

dudara

Moving away from specifics and bringing this back to a general debate...

The fact that the tax and social welfare systems are incompatible is quite astonishing. Cohabiting couples are even treated differently in both systems.

The whole system really does need to be overhauled and streamlined. There should be one single identifier (I know that there already is) but it needs to be used effectively.

I have no problem with social welfare - we are lucky to be wealthy enough to be able to support the poorer members of our society. But that support needs to be delivered on an appropriate basis, subject to assessment and controls. (i.e. if the average wage in this country has plummeted due to recession, then the unemployment benefit and associated benefits also needs to be cut).

In addition, the staffing structure at the Social Welfare, like at all public organisations, needs to be redesigned, with dead weight middle management cut out. More front line staff and better management. But this is a general issue with all public organisations.

Crazy Horse 6

deisedave wrote: »

People need to start thinking, there is no jobs at all. Most people want to get employed but the country is in a serious mess. People talk about the unemployed as if they couldnt be arsed working which is a totally different situation at the moment. People complaining about social welfare need to really just think to themselves that they or their family could become unemployed and be in the same situation.

+1

Crazy Horse 6

headmaster wrote: »

If you know of someone stealing money from the system, phone Social Welfare Fraud 017043000. They will be investigated.

Down with this sort of thing

headmaster

Maybe, just maybe, some people should be helped to bring up THEIR children by other peioples contributions, but only after genuine proof has been supplied that the mother has gone down every avenue to see that the biological father finds it impossible to do so. Then and only then can some type of voucher be given, absolutely no cash. When the father or the mother earn money again, these payments should stop.

Rhys Essien

People that are long term unemployed should be given no money but food vouchers instead.

Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen able bodied men who are unemployed for 10 years plus(some I dont think have ever worked) who have no problem finding money for drinking and smoking.

As far as I know some of these are claiming that they are long term depressed.

They should be told to get fcuked.Im depressed typing this and Im working my balls off everyday.

headmaster

Rhys Essien wrote: »

People that are long term unemployed should be given no money but food vouchers instead.

Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen able bodied men who are unemployed for 10 years plus(some I dont think have ever worked) who have no problem finding money for drinking and smoking.

As far as I know some of these are claiming that they are long term depressed.

They should be told to get fcuked.Im depressed typing this and Im working my balls off everyday.

Rhys,
for social welfare fraud phone this no and the people will be investigated. 01 7043000

passarellaie

headmaster wrote: »

If you know of someone stealing money from the system, phone Social Welfare Fraud 017043000. They will be investigated.

I am going to get called a racist or at best an opponent of the multicultural society but the facts are
90% of the East Europeans in the country are on the take while our best kids all emigrate to Australia.These East Europeans know the welfare laws inside out and THEY ARE SCREWING US ALL
I will of course be banned by the thought police but its about time someone tells the truth

G2ECE

passarellaie wrote: »

I am going to get called a racist or at best an opponent of the multicultural society but the facts are
90% of the East Europeans in the country are on the take while our best kids all emigrate to Australia.These East Europeans know the welfare laws inside out and THEY ARE SCREWING US ALL
I will of course be banned by the thought police but its about time someone tells the truth

I don't think you can point the finger at any one minority group, I think there is a serious problem with social welfare fraud across the board. I would be interested to see stats on the issue.

murphaph

passarellaie wrote: »

I am going to get called a racist or at best an opponent of the multicultural society but the facts are
90% of the East Europeans in the country are on the take while our best kids all emigrate to Australia.These East Europeans know the welfare laws inside out and THEY ARE SCREWING US ALL
I will of course be banned by the thought police but its about time someone tells the truth

I am not one to shy away from calling it like I see it and I believe that some subset of the "Eastern Europeans" (namely Roma Gypsies) bring basically nothing with them and are in most cases looking for a free lunch, BUT the vast majority of central Europeans (Poles, Czechs etc.) came to Ireland to work and that they did and if they can still do.

We have a much greater problem in our own native spongers.

passarellaie

murphaph wrote: »

I am not one to shy away from calling it like I see it and I believe that some subset of the "Eastern Europeans" (namely Roma Gypsies) bring basically nothing with them and are in most cases looking for a free lunch, BUT the vast majority of central Europeans (Poles, Czechs etc.) came to Ireland to work and that they did and if they can still do.

We have a much greater problem in our own native spongers.

Our own native spongers are about 4% of the pop thats the ones who claimed when we lived the illusion.Now with 10000 a month heading out unemployment remains static why.Tell me why is Ryanir flying regularly to such tourist hotspots like Vilnius,Kaunas,Riga,Constanta.Talinn or Bratislava.I havent met too many Irish people with the ambition to sample the delights of downtown Kaunas have you?Even Aer Ligus flies to Vilnius and Krakow for Gods sake

murphaph

passarellaie wrote: »

Our own native spongers are about 4% of the pop thats the ones who claimed when we lived the illusion.Now with 10000 a month heading out unemployment remains static why.Tell me why is Ryanir flying regularly to such tourist hotspots like Vilnius,Kaunas,Riga,Constanta.Talinn or Bratislava.I havent met too many Irish people with the ambition to sample the delights of downtown Kaunas have you?Even Aer Ligus flies to Vilnius and Krakow for Gods sake

Ryanair also flies to oddball places in Germany and the UK. Are we to infer that these flights are only serving to bring people to sign on in Ireland?

Many Poles actually like to fly home now and again I presume...hence the connections between Ireland and Polish cities.

Dannyboy83

passarellaie wrote: »

I am going to get called a racist or at best an opponent of the multicultural society but the facts are 90% of the East Europeans in the country are on the take while our best kids all emigrate to Australia.These East Europeans know the welfare laws inside out and THEY ARE SCREWING US ALL
I will of course be banned by the thought police but its about time someone tells the truth

If you get banned from this forum for telling the truth, then you have nothing to worry about.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/11/13/a-modest-proposal-for-preventing-the-foreign-people-in-ireland-from-being-a-burden-to-the-country/

Number of Irish, "New EU" and others signing on, 2006-2009

Dannyboy83

seanmc1980 wrote: »

1) Social welfare can on be claimed by Irish Citizens. Migrant works should have no right to claim benefits. You benifts is the country is providing a job for you. if teh job is gone, move on.

Let's just look at this briefly:

First, if migrant workers have no right to claim social welfare, then they become legally exempt from paying PRSI. We have agreements on double taxation - their PRSI would be paid in their native country - I think you'll probably find the President of Poland will strongly support you in this move.

If they are exempt from paying PRSI in Ireland, that means you and I have to pay more.
I don't think you'll find much support in Ireland for this move.

The figure as of 2009, was, for every 1 immigrant on the dole, there are 4 working.
They are almost unanimously working in the private sector.


Lets be generous, assume there are 150,000 workng now and 50,000 on the dole. We would be forgoing PRSI contributions by 150,000 workers while reducing Social Welfare payouts by 50,000 people.
Ok, we have astronomical social welfare rates - we won't save money but perhaps we might break even?

Of course, every other country will respond in kind.
Remember that Worldwide Irish diaspora? The one we're famous for.......
Suddenly they're not the UK/OZ/US/EU's problem anymore.
Suddenly they're our problem.
If you think we are bankrupt now........

Dannyboy83

seanmc1980 wrote: »

3) limit dole payment to 4 months. After this time you can continue to get the dole if you have entered a relevant education course. failur eto complete the course results in clawback of payments made in the time.

It takes Fas about 6 months to get a person into a training course (if you are lucky). That's half the reason you get JSB for 12 months, lol.:)

pog it

seanmc1980 wrote: »

I've has a serious problem with the social welfare system in Ireland at present.
After a quick search you can see the 2009 figures http://crimson-observer.blogspot.com/2010/01/irelands-soaring-social-welfare-bill.html

this report says that social welfare make up nearly 40% of ireland total outgoing clocking in at 21 billion for 2009. (i'm sure it has risen since)
I'm amazed by these figures.
I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this spend if it was spent on eduction, family planning, financial planning or other worth while schemes but as far as i can see its just spent on handing out money to people who have become reliant on it and any suggestion of cuts are greated boo's from the back benchers desperate to hold onto votes.
So has anyone any suggestions on how we can cut the welfare bill in this broke country without pushing poor people into acute poverty

Social welfare is a deliberate ponzi scheme. Its costs are going to help bring us to the next crisis. They won't cut it significantly.

seanmc1980

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Let's just look at this briefly:

First, if migrant workers have no right to claim social welfare, then they become legally exempt from paying PRSI. We have agreements on double taxation - their PRSI would be paid in their native country - I think you'll probably find the President of Poland will strongly support you in this move.

If they are exempt from paying PRSI in Ireland, that means you and I have to pay more.
I don't think you'll find much support in Ireland for this move.

The figure as of 2009, was, for every 1 immigrant on the dole, there are 4 working.
They are almost unanimously working in the private sector.


Lets be generous, assume there are 150,000 workng now and 50,000 on the dole. We would be forgoing PRSI contributions by 150,000 workers while reducing Social Welfare payouts by 50,000 people.
Ok, we have astronomical social welfare rates - we won't save money but perhaps we might break even?

Of course, every other country will respond in kind.
Remember that Worldwide Irish diaspora? The one we're famous for.......
Suddenly they're not the UK/OZ/US/EU's problem anymore.
Suddenly they're our problem.
If you think we are bankrupt now........

i'm all for migrant workers, the more the better. don't get me wrong i'm not one of those "they're tahink all our jobs" brigade. but like australia and the US you should have no entitlement to social welfare when you lose your job.
Legislation can be changed at the stroke of a pen, PRSI is 4% well say the average wage per week of an migrant worker is 600 at 4% *52 weeks * 150k = 187m.
Social welfare is 195 a week *52 * 50k = 507m difference of 320m.

G2ECE

seanmc1980 wrote: »

i'm all for migrant workers, the more the better. don't get me wrong i'm not one of those "they're tahink all our jobs" brigade. but like australia and the US you should have no entitlement to social welfare when you lose your job.
Legislation can be changed at the stroke of a pen, PRSI is 4% well say the average wage per week of an migrant worker is 600 at 4% *52 weeks * 150k = 187m.
Social welfare is 195 a week *52 * 50k = 507m difference of 320m.

Don't forget the employers PRSI.

angelfire9

Let me throw the cat amongst the pigeons slightly :cool:

I'm out of work 2 years and cannot find any suitable employment
I cannot work in Tesco or Dunnes or a local pub because I have 2 kids to mind and creches are not open after 6pm
My OH works shifts so childcare is a HUGE issue
I hate being out of work
I can't retrain through a social welfare scheme or BTEA because I have a level 9 accountancy qualification already

Being unemployed is no joke i don't enjoy sitting at home on my own all day every day
I miss interacting with the public
I miss just having a conversation with someone during the day
It is completely depressing

I can't move to Dublin or Cork where there are jobs in my sector because of the kids & the mortgage so I'm stuck in a rut
I apply for every 9-5 job in Clare/Limerick/Galway and get told either i'm over qualified or haven't relevant experience

Not every unemployed person in the country is milking the system
There should be different rates paid to those of us who paid mega amounts of tax during the boom years compared to those who were actually sitting on their asses during our periods of high employment

sparksfly

Able bodied people should not be paid for doing nothing. We have plenty of work that needs doing to improve this country, both for ourselves and visitors.
Why not set up a programe where people who are out of work are employed to upgrade our public areas such as parks, towns & villages, rivers, canals,bridges, schools, hospitals and public buildings.
The skills of tradespeople could be employed to carry out much needed repairs and improvements.
We would have the duel benefit of-
(1) People feeling a sense of value.
(2) A clean, visually appealing country which is pleasent to live in and attractive to tourists, which in turn would improve our tourism industry and generate revenue.

murphaph

angelfire9 wrote: »

Not every unemployed person in the country is milking the system. There should be different rates paid to those of us who paid mega amounts of tax during the boom years compared to those who were actually sitting on their asses during our periods of high employment

Absolutely. In a European context Ireland is probably in the minority of countries that pay a flat rate of unemployment benefit that bears no relation to stamps paid.

Fergus

angelfire9 wrote: »

I cannot work in Tesco or Dunnes or a local pub because I have 2 kids to mind and creches are not open after 6pm
My OH works shifts so childcare is a HUGE issue

I wondering would the US system, where you can claim an allowance for the cost of childcare against your taxes, work for you?

Geuze

Some data:

Geuze

Budget headline savings of 475m will translate into a projected drop in spending of 88m, due to more pension payments, etc.

henryporter

Interesting thread - some of the OPs ideas are spot on, however there's some realities here that need to be addressed:

1. There is not a jobs shortage in this country; there is a skills shortage - I didn't say this but Jerry Kennelly did recently (for who he look here: http://www.bizstartup.ie/entrepreneurs/item/81-jerry-kennelly/). Now I agree with that statement but there is one oversight that he has made, and that is being made by most of the back to work education schemes out there: the majority of unemployed do not have the aptitude for the type of jobs available. IT is being mooted as the one sector that is booming - and indeed it is, but how many people have the ability to learn and implement a computer language, or have the discipline to test software fully, or to project manage the construction of an application. A fraction of the total number unemployed is the answer.
2. The sniping that's going on about single mothers and unsupportive fathers would be funny if it wasn't so sad - the system has created this particular anomaly by not enforcing mandatory support by the errant parent (why should the rest of the taxpayers pay their hard-earned money over to support the children of these tossers who can't even grasp the concept of contraception). I have heard stories of couples living apart in two separate rent allowance supported properties so that they can fully exploit the current inept social welfare system. I also recently heard the story of a young man who ran away from the girl he impregnated in Australia only to awake one morning in Mammys house with two Gardai and an extradition order from Australian Courts seeking his return to pay support.
3. When you add up all the benefits, the basic allowance, the rent allowance, the medical cards, dental treatment, childrens allowance etc.; then yes it is more beneficial from a monetary point of view to be receiving benefit, than to work in relatively menial jobs. From every other point of view its a disaster; people are losing their dignity, the skills they accumulated, and as another poster has identified they are no longer socialising at a working level. The fact that the Government don't seem to want to address this issue in any way is frightening. When I worked in the US I was impressed by the fact that I was not entitled to any form of assistance or support as a foreign national, because that incentivised me to get off my bum and work. However I think its very different here - there is no other choice at the moment for a lot of people stuck in negative equity, with families to rear and so on. It would be nice to say lets limit the dole to 6 months and after that you're on your tod; the reality is very different and once you grasp the meaning of that reality, that there is very little down the line for these 400,000 unemployed other than emigration or social welfare you begin to understand the enormity of the problem - we are essentially boll1xed.
4. I was self employed for years - wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless you planned to become super big and be able to afford to become tax immune, because thats all I seemed to do was hand over every penny in tax. So I wouldn't recommend that as a route out of unemployment to most people. You will get very little support from the Irish Government who are now at the point of invading payment systems across the country and stopping their payments out of those to companies before those companies get anything (a bit like the Russians used to do to the Hungarian Farmers - 'you can have whats left after we've taken most of what you have'.

Anyhow these discussions start off as a simple rant, why not stop social welfare etc etc and as admirable as they are the simple answer is that the system is so fubar that nothing can be done. Instead of putting money aside for the next generation of elderly and sick we're given it all away to fix banks and developers bad investments and governments bad decisions and now we're borrowing loads more money every day to keep the country from turning into a ghost town or a third world country. Its very very sad...

liammur

People on disability and working in the Public Sector, shows there is something badly wrong with our system. However, glad to see the government had to back track with genuine disability cases.