Hill climbing advice needed

MediaMan

Folks, looking for some advice here on the perennial problem of gaining altitiude faster...

I have been cycling for 18 months now and have got to the stage where I can do 100-120km, averaging 25-28km/h on mixed terrain. I’m not into racing, I am focusing on group cycles, sportives and so on, so I’m happy enough with that performance. I do planning to increase both distance and speed further over the next while. At the moment I'm covering about 150km per week, being a mix of a weekend cycle with mid-week commutes.

My big problem though is the hills. Taking on a medium-gradient hill, e.g. up to Johnie Fox’s or to the Military Road from Dublin, I find that after a couple of minutes into the climb I start to run out of puff and have to slow down. When I am with a group, sometimes I can keep up, and other times myself and maybe one or two more end up falling behind. Once the terrain flattens out I recover quite quickly and can usually catch up with the group (especially if they wait at the top ).

So given that I can generally keep up an OK pace, I really want to see if I can improve my climbing performance - little by little. I have been doing climbs in the Dublin and Wicklow mountains and have improved quite a bit but feel I’ve plateaued (apologies for the pun), as in I still start to max out after only a few minutes on a hill.

I got a cycle computer recently with a heart rate monitor and this has thrown a little further light on the situation. When cycling along at say 30km/h on the flat, my heart rate is at a comfy 80% of max, but when I hit a serious hill the rate rapidly hits 100%+ and that coincides with me feeling maxed out and having to slow down. I'm sure part of this is age-related as am well into the 40s now. But there are older and faster folk around so that's no excuse.

I’m asking for help in two areas. Firstly what’s the best training approach to improve climbing ability? Obviously doing plenty climbs is important, but I am doing a fair bit, but feel I’ve hit a limit. Am thinking that maybe mixing in some jogging or spinning would give me a better cardio workout and that would help. Any thoughts?

Secondly given current limitations, what is the best approach to tackling a long hill climb? I think that the best thing is to work within my physical limits, so although it’s tempting to lash into the hill as fast as I can, overall it’s better to keep a pace I can sustain rather than going hell for leather and then being knackered and barely moving for the rest of the climb.

Any advice gratefully appreciated, and I will post progress!

Beasty

What's your weight? This is the ost critical aspect of climbing. Lose weight wthout compromsing power (ie maintaining muscle mass) and you will climb faster. The best way is to try and lose weight gradually

You mention you regularly hit maximum HR - this suggests your maximum is actually higher than you think. I've hit a "personal record" HR only twice, and only very rarely get near it. I suspect it could still go a few beats per minute faster if required

In terms of approach - keep it as steady as you can on the hills. There may be times when you hit a particularly steep bit and need to put in the extra effort. Experiment in and out of the saddle at these bits - some riders are much better keeping in it, whereas others are happier out of it

kuro_man

what gearing ratios do you have? if you don't already you could increase size of cassette (you can usually go to 28T without changing rd) or/and add a compact or triple crankset

Not staying with the group should be ignored, it will only encourage you to cycle too fast at the bottom and leave you too tired near the top.
It is normally recommended to stay seated for a long as possible (gear ratios help that), start off slowly and keep a comfortable pace. Split the hill in 3: start, middle, crest. Do the start slowly, increase effort in the middle, leaving enough gas for the crest.

Other than that you could loose weight, do weight training on legs/core, perhaps HIIT on a turbo trainer to increase stamina.

MediaMan

Thanks guys. Weight is 76kg, bike is 9.5kg. So I could lose a few kg, and I'm sure every little helps. No chance of the bike doing any weight loss - can't afford to splash out on a carbon frame at this point! The gearing is OK, I think - compact (50/34) on the front and 9-speed 11-26 on the back. I think I have the strength to turn the pedals at a reasonable rate, it's more the breathing and heart pumping that's causing me to slow down I think.

Regarding pace on the hills - glad to hear the 'keep it steady' advice. Will try to find the point where I am pushing it enough to actually improve, but still staying within limits so I can increase speed as I get towards the top rather than decrease it.

Had to look up what HIIT meant :-) - although I have heard of interval training. Will definitely look at that, as except for the weekend cycle I am very time limited in training opportunities. I guess I could apply the interval principle on the road or running too. Weight training - yeah, am planning to go back to the gym after many years away so will also look at that. Any particular exercises to focus on?

kuro_man

There is a distinction between HIIT and "interval training".

HIIT should be a bitch! You must go full out on the sprint - as fast as you can go. I have a wireless speedo on the rear-wheel; I have determined a minimum speed to aim for.

I do a 13 min workout twice a week (max): 3 min warm up, 6 x (30 sec sprint + 45 sec interval) , 3 min warm down. By the 4 or 5th rep, I am starting to struggle.
Start out with 3 reps with 1 minute intervals and gradually increase reps and/or reduce interval.

If you are brave you could try the "tabata" program: 20 sec sprint + 10 sec rest x 6

fixie fox

How do you know what your max heart rate is? Very unlikely you are hitting 100% - you can only sustain that for short periods, especially when you are relatively untrained. That 220 minus your age thing is useless.
Weight is important when climbing, but don't worry about the weight of the bike. The weight of a bottle of water will be all the difference between a very good bike and average one.
It's fairly simple:

• keep your cadence low and don't get your exertion so high that you can't sustain it reasonaby comfortably - you will need low gears for that.
• ride plenty
• enjoy it and wait for the fitness to come - it will take a couple of years to get really into it.

granda

kuro_man wrote: »

There is a distinction between HIIT and "interval training".

HIIT should be a bitch! You must go full out on the sprint - as fast as you can go. I have a wireless speedo on the rear-wheel; I have determined a minimum speed to aim for.

I do a 13 min workout twice a week (max): 3 min warm up, 6 x (30 sec sprint + 45 sec interval) , 3 min warm down. By the 4 or 5th rep, I am starting to struggle.
Start out with 3 reps with 1 minute intervals and gradually increase reps and/or reduce interval.

If you are brave you could try the "tabata" program: 20 sec sprint + 10 sec rest x 6

just a little off topic here i'm trying interval training by doing a 20 min warm up at high cadence(90-100) and then 4-5 intervals of 1 min as fast as i can then 2 mins recovery then 20 mins recovery at a high cadence(90-100)
would this be ok or should i change it a little bit i currently do this once a week then a high cadence day and a hills day should i do more intervals or is this progamme ok over the winter months

MediaMan

That HIIT stuff sounds tough! What kind of speeds should I be aiming for initially on a sprint? My max sustained speed on the flat would be about 35k or so... Also, is it feasible to do intervals on a quiet road rather than on a trainer?

Re max heart rate - I'm not sure if that is my actual max, but the point is I can't sustain that rate once I hit it, hence having to drop back. If it's not the max, it's pretty close!

Re 'keep your cadence low' - I'm surprised by this - most of what I've heard or read says to keep your cadence up, shifting down as needed. What's the benefit of keeping it low (other than when I've run out of sprockets)?

Thanks again for all the pointers.

TheBlaaMan

I'm in a similar age group and facing similar experiences, though I dont cycle with the club as often as alone. I certainly notice the direct connection between heart rate and maximum possible effort on the hills (nothing new about that) but I dont worry too much about trying to maintain a particular pace viz colleagues - it all tends to even out on mixed routes where the group has mixed abilities. TBH, I follow the adage 'make your own pace on the hills and keep up with the group on the flats'

FWIW, I regard the 220-age formula for max HR as a pretty good guide. I've undergone heart stress testing recently and my max is above this (184) for my age (46) but its not a bad guide. I use a HRM with my Garmin to try to keep training spins in the area of <160bpm to try to build up my strength over time, and doing that I dont bother with trying to keep up with anyone other than myself. Push the hill and I can quickly reach 95-98% maxHR, ease off and I'm back to 150-160.

If I recall, "best-practice" training advise would be to never exceed Zone 4 (for me, 135-160bpm)............I may have got that wrong, so dont quote me! But in any case, I'm satisfied with this - for now, at least. HTH

Morrisseeee

Here's something I tried (when starting off last year), pick a hill climb, say longer than a kilometer, say something like 2km @ 7% or 4km @ 4%, I'd prefer the steeper one because it negates a wind bias. On your 1st attempt put it in your easiest gear, 34-26, and just spin up to the top, take note of time & HR. Then the next day or next week try and beat that time & note HR. Over the next few weeks attack the climb and try and improve your time & lower your HR (this depends on fitness, time off the bike etc). Stick with this climb & let it become a standard that you can guage your fitness/improvement. You should even notice that after a while even tho you still put it in the easiest gear and spin up that you have improved on your slowest time.
I did this experiment and I improved form 10mins to 6min36sec!
As regards max HR, when I started first, I was unfit & hadn't been on a bike in years, and during a hill climb my HR hit 192, today I would regularly hit 180/182 when all out on a climb or 185 if I've been off the bike for a while, but I'm not sure I could hit 192 again without it being a gargantuan effort ! What I seem to be saying there is that the more unfit you are the easier it is to hit your max or at least a very high value.

kuro_man

granda wrote: »

just a little off topic here i'm trying interval training by doing a 20 min warm up at high cadence(90-100) and then 4-5 intervals of 1 min as fast as i can then 2 mins recovery then 20 mins recovery at a high cadence(90-100)
would this be ok or should i change it a little bit i currently do this once a week then a high cadence day and a hills day should i do more intervals or is this progamme ok over the winter months

I am not a HIIT expert - I just do what I am comfortable with. I reckon the 20 mins warm up / warm down is too long; the vast majority of your workout is moderate distance rather than HIIT. There is nothing wrong with that but you are probably not getting the benefits of HIIT: good training in very little time.

Split your training into different sessions on different days: moderate distance of 20 - 40 minutes and HIIT. The HIIT should be quick (< 15 min) and include 3 - 5m warm up/warm down. I leave the sprint/interval times to you to decide but sprint should be 30 sec or less and the interval 1 min or less. With the shorter warm up and shorter time, the sprint should be much faster.

NeedMoreGears

FWIW my own experience with hills is pretty similar.

I started back on the bike when I was 45. Generally didn't have a lot of problems building up to 100k on the flat at speeds in the 25-28kph range. Hills were very hard and slow (8kph up Sally Gap). I began to improve in the second year as a result of (i) simply more time accumulated total time on the bike (ii) using lower gears early in the climbs and spinning to overcome limited leg strength. At one stage I had 34/30 which greatly improved my speed up the steeper ones.

Once I felt I thought I was getting the hang of hills I started doing repeated climbs of Howth (about 3.75km/130m at 3-4% average up along the sutton side). Generally I tried one quick climbs, two moderate "just get to the top" climbs and the last one as fast I could (this could be quite slow in practice as I was usually knackered at that stage). The climbs were interspersed by a 5-7 min descent. I found this helped a lot.

Today I'm still quite a slow climber (11 - 12kph up the same section of Sally Gap) compared to most but I do get to pass the occasional rider.

fixie fox

Ya, you're right - it should have been keep cadence high.
"I'm not sure if that is my actual max, but the point is I can't sustain that rate once I hit it..". Well, that's just your 'threshold', or whatever other techincal way you want to look at it. I think maybe your are being a bit over-analytical for someone who isn't in the game long and doesn't want to race and you're going largely on guessowork.
If you want to train 'scientifically', then do it properly. By that I mean either study the topic properly or get direct advice from someone who will do the basic tests etc. (e.g. do a proper max heart rate test).
As I said, the main thing is to keep enjoying your riding, do as much as possible, mix it with your mates as much as you can, and the fitness will come gradually.
Remember, it really takes a few years to mature physically as a cyclist - you will build year-on-year for a few years.

granda

thanks kuro man so i should just shorten my interval distances but can i increase these if i feel i need to

kuro_man

I started with 5 min warm up, then 3x 30 sec sprint + 1 min rest, then 5 min warm down. Total time is 14.5 mins

I now do 3 min warm up, then 6x 30 sec sprint + 45 sec rest, then 3 min warm down. Total time is 13.5 mins

Latter is much harder! I only do it twice a week.

I leave my flat-bar bike in trainer all the time so I can get it done first thing in the morning before shower, hardly takes any time...it's like a jockey's breakfast.:D

MediaMan

>just spin up to the top
Makes it sound so easy!

@fixie - fair point re max heart rate. I'm really not wanting to be over-nerdy about this. Really I just want to make sure I'm not focusing my efforts in areas that aren't going to help.

So I'm getting the message to keep at it and things will improve, and to enjoy it - which I do. Good idea to have a timed section to measure progress - will definitely do that.

Thanks for sharing the experiences folks - its encouraging.

granda

kuro_man wrote: »

I started with 5 min warm up, then 3x 30 sec sprint + 1 min rest, then 5 min warm down. Total time is 14.5 mins

I now do 3 min warm up, then 6x 30 sec sprint + 45 sec rest, then 3 min warm down. Total time is 13.5 mins

Latter is much harder! I only do it twice a week.

I leave my flat-bar bike in trainer all the time so I can get it done first thing in the morning before shower, hardly takes any time...it's like a jockey's breakfast.:D

sorry to the op for hijacking this thread like this
@kudo man i assume your using a turbo trainer but i dont have one and only cycle on the road so will this make any difference to my intervals and warm up and cool down

Lumen

There is some useful information here on high intensity cycling training.

Most interesting are the effects on aerobic capacity, as reflected by improvements in 40km TT time. It is a common complaint that doing TT training makes you worse at bunch racing, but this approach seems to boost TT performance whilst never doing those highly specific long, hard intervals (e.g. CP20 x 3) which are allegedly the "gold standard" of aerobic training.

A recommended recipe is to do eight 2.5 minute duration intervals at CP4 (the maximum average power you can sustain for four minutes) with 5 minute rest periods. I'm surprised that these intervals are so short, but I guess they have to be in order to allow sufficient repeats.

It is important that the studies referenced use well-trained competitive athletes as subjects, for instance:

"All the participants had been training for, and competing in, cycling events on a regular basis for six years, with an average weekly cycling training distance of 285k (177 miles)."

...and the article warns that:

"Inexperienced athletes would probably also benefit from these techniques, although they should be very careful about introducing the training into their programmes; the high speeds and intensities associated with Pmax and supra-max workouts can produce a significant amount of muscular soreness and stiffness in athletes who do not have a good foundation of sport-specific strength."

So I'm not sure that high-intensity intervals are an appropriate recipe for a non-competitive leisure cyclist who does 100km per week and climbs like a slug. Probably better to just ride a lot of hills and let the adaptations come slowly and surely over time.

I certainly think regular sprint intervals are a bad idea for an untrained cyclist. You won't get faster if you're injured.

granda

thanks for the advice lumen and no its not for racing ,i was hoping to build up a bit of strength and basic fitness over the winter and as i cant do longer spins( i just have couple of hours for 4 days midweek) so wanted to concentrate just on shorter sharper spin but mixing it abit i.e. interval, hill and a easy high cadence spin not one after another of course

kuro_man

granda wrote: »

sorry to the op for hijacking this thread like this
@kudo man i assume your using a turbo trainer but i dont have one and only cycle on the road so will this make any difference to my intervals and warm up and cool down

It is easier to control/manage on a trainer; I don't do it on the road - I just cycle and enjoy it

granda

thanks all hijack ended

mp31

fixie fox wrote: »

How do you know what your max heart rate is?....That 220 minus your age thing is useless.

So what is the best way to determine the max heart rate?

kincsem

^
220-age seems good to me. I'm 61 years old. After a break of a few months I started back on Tuesday (max was 160); Thursday (max was 159); and Saturday (today) I forgot the HR strap.

Beasty

kincsem wrote: »

^
220-age seems good to me. I'm 61 years old. After a break of a few months I started back on Tuesday (max was 160); Thursday (max was 159); and Saturday (today) I forgot the HR strap.

But even the guy that came up with that measure said it was never intended to be used as a standard formula

It's certainly at least 17 out in my case - the best way to establish it is to go through your own HR records and use the maximum you've recorded in the past year or so. It can always be changed if you ever go higher, but at least you're erring on the safe side.

I believe the highest you can go on a bike is still less than your maximum potential (cyclists who are also runners apparently experience maximum rates of perhaps 4 or 5 beats higher when running)

There are a number ways of estimating max HR here

Leroy42

Climbing hurts, climbing faster hurts more.

There is no way around this, so first off you need to lose your 'fear' of the climbs. From my reading of your posts, you seem to accept when you approach a climb that you will not only be dropped be get into serious trouble.

The only way to improve this situation is to target climbs, and gain confidence. Start of really slow, slower than you would think, and the don't really push until the last 0.5k of the climb. The over time, extend this section to .75, 1 k etc etc.

Try moving to the front of the group at the start of a climb and then drift back as the faster guys move up. Don't try to stick with them, go out a comfortable pace that you can maintain till you want to push near the top. Whatever the climb, never let yourself go so deep into your reserves, you mentioned max HR although it is more likely this is above your sustainable level rather than your actual max, and as such you die quite quickly. The trick is to find your sustainable level and do not go above that.

At the end of the day some people are better climbers than others, its a lot to do with physical abilites, and there is only so much you can do.

kenmc

kincsem wrote: »

^
220-age seems good to me. I'm 61 years old. After a break of a few months I started back on Tuesday (max was 160); Thursday (max was 159); and Saturday (today) I forgot the HR strap.

What you have there is not you max possible heart rate, rather the max values you achieved on 2 days. I'm 35. During one of the club races earlier in the year I hit 208bpm. The 220 - age formula would have me at 12 years of age. I've also hit 200+ several times. And I'm still alive.
I still don't know what my max possible rate is, only that the max I've achieved is 208. Although I suspect that I wouldn't get much higher than that though.

MediaMan

I think I gave the wrong impression in my first post - I'm not afraid of climbs or of being dropped - just want to keep improving, that's all. And I was starting to think I had hit a limit in terms of improving and wanted to test that. Based on the advice in this thread, I think that it's really a matter of
1) Keep at it!
2) Get the pace right

I was out for a couple of spins this weekend and tried pacing myself better - that is slower to start and increasing near the end and I think it worked a lot better than hammering into it and then slowing.

I'm going to use climb up the Ticknock Road to the top of Three Rock as a reference - will post times (assuming they are improving :pac:).

MediaMan

MediaMan wrote: »

Folks, looking for some advice here on the perennial problem of gaining altitiude faster...

...

I’m asking for help in two areas. Firstly what’s the best training approach to improve climbing ability? Obviously doing plenty climbs is important, but I am doing a fair bit, but feel I’ve hit a limit. Am thinking that maybe mixing in some jogging or spinning would give me a better cardio workout and that would help. Any thoughts?

I thought I would add a postscript to this thread, even though it's 10 months since I last posted on it.

First off, the advice I received here was really helpful. In particular the following:
- pace yourself on the hills - am doing that and it makes a big difference
- lose weight - did a bit of that - lost 3kg and that definitely helps
- practice, practice, practice - this was the main advice and has given me results. I've steadily knocked time of all my regular hill climbs, including Ticknock and those nasty short 'n' steep climbs around Enniskerry. In general I have knocked 10-15% off my hill times over the last 10 months.

I wanted to post this in case anyone having a similar objective - improving hill times - was wondering how to go about it. In summary what is working for me is to have the objective in the first place and then go out there week after week and try to beat you previous times!

Thanks again to all for the great advice.

ugsparky

MediaMan wrote: »

I thought I would add a postscript to this thread, even though it's 10 months since I last posted on it.

First off, the advice I received here was really helpful. In particular the following:
- pace yourself on the hills - am doing that and it makes a big difference
- lose weight - did a bit of that - lost 3kg and that definitely helps
- practice, practice, practice - this was the main advice and has given me results. I've steadily knocked time of all my regular hill climbs, including Ticknock and those nasty short 'n' steep climbs around Enniskerry. In general I have knocked 10-15% off my hill times over the last 10 months.

I wanted to post this in case anyone having a similar objective - improving hill times - was wondering how to go about it. In summary what is working for me is to have the objective in the first place and then go out there week after week and try to beat you previous times!

Thanks again to all for the great advice.

I'm at where you were so your log is a kind of blueprint for me.

I'm 50, I've recently lost some weight so I'm now 85.45Kg (15st )down from 95.45Kg (13st6lbs) ... (:eek: 10kgs ... jeez I've only just realised that !!!). A combination of bike and sharing a diet with the honey who has had thyroid problems. I work shifts so I'm on a combo of days/nights & 10.5/12 hours so it can be difficult to structure a training regime. I have other commitments also. Anyway enough excuses - I'm going to use your log to try and achieve the kind of gains you are talking about. My nemesis is Jenkinstown Hill which I intend to climb and then continue to achieve better times on during 2013. I'm on a nice carbon Ridley with a compact chainring and already I've started to feel better on climbs around my local area (by comparison to when I rode on my other bike). I have an exercise bike that I can tension the resistance as I pedal - I'm not sure if this will help - I've been doing spins where I cycle at a fast cadence - then I increase the tension and try and maintain cadence - then drop back to the original settings etc. I mix this up with sprinting and steady peddaling. When I read about the max heart rate stuff here I'm a bit unsure where I'm at, as the job I have has probably impacted on my lung/heart/hearing/eyesight capabilities (mining since 1984). I related to your description of running out of puff half way up a hill and losing contact with a group - only in my case I would seldom catch the group ahead in the distance . However I hope to change this during 2013 ... hopefully progressing on a similar path to your own.

Thanks

ugsparky