€50 charge to medical cards being discussed

nesf

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1123/breaking10.html

Still cheap at €50 but will hit some families hard if they don't get relief elsewhere in the budget.

Annabella1

I think the Government is finally getting the message that nothing should be free in this country

nesf

Further reaction: http://www.thejournal.ie/govt-criticised-over-proposed-medical-card-and-prescription-charges-286268-Nov2011/

bcmf

Annabella1 wrote: »

I think the Government is finally getting the message that nothing should be free in this country

Despite their elections promises....?


I never thought I would say it but if these measures are brought in I would consider voting for Fiann........sh1t I just cant say it.

donalg1

Bout time, and €50 wont break the bank despite everyone claiming it will, should be a minimum of €50

bcmf

donalg1 wrote: »

Bout time, and €50 wont break the bank despite everyone claiming it will, should be a minimum of €50

The €50 might not. Couple that all the extra cuts proposed (S/W, lone parents,property tax etc) and €50 suddenly becomes a huge amount.
What about those who recieve nothing (€0.) from the Social Welfare and without the medical card....?

donalg1

bcmf wrote: »

The €50 might not. Couple that all the extra cuts proposed (S/W, lone parents,property tax etc) and €50 suddenly becomes a huge amount.
What about those who recieve nothing (€0.) from the Social Welfare and without the medical card....?

People on SW such as lone parents can easily afford €50 per year for a medical card even with the proposed €8 cut in the standard rate and even with the property tax too there is no doubt in my mind about that

Sierra Oscar

It is a far cry from the promise that Minister Reilly made pre-election to abolish the 50 cent prescription charge.

Jaysoose

bcmf wrote: »

The €50 might not. Couple that all the extra cuts proposed (S/W, lone parents,property tax etc) and €50 suddenly becomes a huge amount.
What about those who recieve nothing (€0.) from the Social Welfare and without the medical card....?

People on social welfare will most likelt be exempt from the property tax so to add this into your argument is disengenuous.

€50 for a medical card! i would be first in line for that but of course we will have the usual defenders of "The most vulnerable in society" bleating on about this incredibly cheap fee when its put into context against the service provided.

bmaxi

donalg1 wrote: »

People on SW such as lone parents can easily afford €50 per year for a medical card even with the proposed €8 cut in the standard rate and even with the property tax too there is no doubt in my mind about that

I think you are confusing those genuinely dependent on SW payments with those who are scamming the system. I have no doubt that there are some people who do very nicely from the Welfare state but to imply this is universal is nonsense.

bcmf

donalg1 wrote: »

People on SW such as lone parents can easily afford €50 per year for a medical card even with the proposed €8 cut in the standard rate and even with the property tax too there is no doubt in my mind about that

So I take it you are a lone parent.
As a lone parent you will be happy to pay the €50 plus the €2 prescription charge, plus take a cut in what you are entitled etc etc.

bcmf

Jaysoose wrote: »

People on social welfare will most likelt be exempt from the property tax so to add this into your argument is disengenuous.

When they announce that people on SW are exempt from this I will retract without issue.
Granted, so far , we are arguing about what MAY BE INTRODUCED.
But please dont assume that everyone is on the pigs back having the life of reilly on SW.

MungBean

Doesnt sound like much but its more money out of peoples pockets. Isnt there a higher charge for prescriptions coming too on top of this too?

And people need to give this "cheap medical card" thing a rest. Medical cards are given to people who cannot afford to cover medical costs due to their low income. Its not a giveaway its an extra charge. Added onto all the other charges and the cost of living and its going to put people under pressure.

woodoo

MungBean wrote: »

Doesnt sound like much but its more money out of peoples pockets. Isnt there a higher charge for prescriptions coming too on top of this too?

And people need to give this "cheap medical card" thing a rest. Medical cards are given to people who cannot afford to cover medical costs due to their low income. Its not a giveaway its an extra charge. Added onto all the other charges and the cost of living and its going to put people under pressure.

Its the people who are just above the guideline for the medical card who really have it tough.

nesf

woodoo wrote: »

Its the people who are just above the guideline for the medical card who really have it tough.

Or people a bit higher with well above average medical bills due to illness that don't fall under the Long Term Illness scheme.

SeaFields

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is a far cry from the promise that Minister Reilly made pre-election to abolish the 50 cent prescription charge.

I've absolutely no figures to back it up but I imagine the prescription charge has saved the state a good deal of money. From working in a pharmacy I get a lot of people will come in with the medical card script and tell you the items the need and those that they have enough of for the time being.

Before the charge, everything would have been dispensed and it if ended up in the back of the cupboard so be it.

Siouxie

Why can't they charge €10 per G.P. visit for medical card holders instead of the €50 up front.

nesf

Siouxie wrote: »

Why can't they charge €10 per G.P. visit for medical card holders instead of the €50 up front.

Because for very sick people or people with a lot of kids it could end up costing a lot more. That and people not go to the doctor to save €10 which would be a bad thing. A €50 upfront charge doesn't distort behaviour in this way.

MungBean

woodoo wrote: »

Its the people who are just above the guideline for the medical card who really have it tough.

I dont see how that negates the fact that this charge will put a lot of people under pressure.

I'd imagine there is a grey area where some people get caught just outside of being helped but not far enough outside to be able to help themselves.

But the charge isnt going to benefit those people so how does the fact that there's an issue there have anything to do with this €50 charge making it tougher for people who rely on medical cards ?

miju

Nothing wrong with that and should be more IMO. Wish I could visit the GP anytime I wish for the paltry fee of €0.96 a week.

Anyone claiming they can't afford that is plain out just having a laugh and looking for free handouts
. Though to make it more manageable to pay why not simply lower the medical cards welfare payments by €0.96 a week so they arent faced with a €50 lump sum

seamus

MungBean wrote: »

I dont see how that negates the fact that this charge will put a lot of people under pressure.

Well it does to a certain extent. Because the complaint is that €50/year will break the bank, when people not eligible for a medical card pay a minimum of €50 every time they get any kind of medical treatment.

So while I have no major issue in principle with people paying more because they can, any assertion that a €50 charge on medical card holders is unfair, excessive or otherwise disproportionate is complete nonsense.

For an individual claming the dole and nothing else, this charge represents less than half of one percent of their income. Since few people claim nothing but the dole, then this €50 as a porportion of total yearly income drops even further. A €500 private health insurance policy by comparison is 1.6% of the average industrial wage, and those people still have to pay for most of their GP visits and medicines.

It's a perfectly fair and reasonable charge to levy.

donalg1

bcmf wrote: »

So I take it you are a lone parent.
As a lone parent you will be happy to pay the €50 plus the €2 prescription charge, plus take a cut in what you are entitled etc etc.

No I'm not a lone parent but I know a few and they are far better off than I am and I work 5 days a week and cant afford half the stuff they have but yet I am still expected to pay for all my medical expenses all year so no way is €50 once a year going to break anyone, and if I was a loan parent I would happily pay the €50 a year and then get free medicine for the rest of the year, because as is now I pay far more than €50 a year for doctors visits and medicine so would be thanking my lucky stars to get away with that amount

MungBean

seamus wrote: »

Well it does to a certain extent. Because the complaint is that €50/year will break the bank, when people not eligible for a medical card pay a minimum of €50 every time they get any kind of medical treatment.

So while I have no major issue in principle with people paying more because they can, any assertion that a €50 charge on medical card holders is unfair, excessive or otherwise disproportionate is complete nonsense.

For an individual claming the dole and nothing else, this charge represents less than half of one percent of their income. Since few people claim nothing but the dole, then this €50 as a porportion of total yearly income drops even further. A €500 private health insurance policy by comparison is 1.6% of the average industrial wage, and those people still have to pay for most of their GP visits and medicines.

It's a perfectly fair and reasonable charge to levy.

The argument is not that it will break the bank. Its that it will add more financial pressure to people on low incomes and push their living standards down.

Of course anyone can afford anything its just a matter of sacrifice. Some people can sacrifice non essential spending (people who will always have enough for a few pints) and some will have to sacrifice essential spending. Less fuel, less food, less clothes.. just a lower standard of life. It will affect people.

I'm not sure where in your argument you negated the effect it will have on people with low incomes by arguing its non disproportionate. Whatever about thinking its a reasonable charge it doesnt benefit people just above the threshold only puts pressure on those below.

any assertion that a €50 charge on medical card holders is unfair, excessive or otherwise disproportionate is complete nonsense

I never said anything of the sort. I'd be in favour of having health care free for everyone with the cost paid proportional to your earnings. Not giving it free to some and charging others a fortune for it.

I dont think increasing charges on those on the lower end of the scale will do anything but put people off getting medical cards, assuming the charge on new cards will be payable with application and and add extra burden to those already struggling.

"You who's really struggling, people with nothing to do with this charge" isnt an argument.

MagicMarker

€50 charge per adult per year sounds more than fair enough for me. If €50 per YEAR is going to effect you then something is seriously messed up. It should remain free for kids though.

murphaph

bcmf wrote: »

What about those who recieve nothing (€0.) from the Social Welfare and without the medical card....?

You mean working taxpayers?

Sierra Oscar

MungBean wrote: »

And people need to give this "cheap medical card" thing a rest. Medical cards are given to people who cannot afford to cover medical costs due to their low income.

In all fairness though - it is also given to a lot of people who are not in financial hardship. The GMS scheme has went far beyond its original remit, partly because the last government attempted to buy votes by relaxing eligibility requirements during the boom.

I still think the automatic entitlement for a medical card for OAP's should have been removed during the last budget. Those who could not afford private medical care would still have got a medical card - yet we have a situation where very wealthy people are getting a GMS card automatically.

Furthermore there are public representatives getting people medical cards when they really should not be entitled to them.

woodoo

MagicMarker wrote: »

€50 charge per adult per year sounds more than fair enough for me. If €50 per YEAR is going to effect you then something is seriously messed up. It should remain free for kids though.

Perhaps free for under 5's and maybe €25 for 6 to 16 yr olds. Over 16 - €50

woodoo

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

In all fairness though - it is also given to a lot of people who are not in financial hardship. The GMS scheme has went far beyond its original remit, partly because the last government attempted to buy votes by relaxing eligibility requirements during the boom.

People can just decide to pay their mortgage off quicker and that will be taken into consideration in the Medical Card means test. If then they then fall within the guidelines they get the card.

kc66

Siouxie wrote: »

Why can't they charge €10 per G.P. visit for medical card holders instead of the €50 up front.

nesf wrote: »

Because for very sick people or people with a lot of kids it could end up costing a lot more. That and people not go to the doctor to save €10 which would be a bad thing. A €50 upfront charge doesn't distort behaviour in this way.

I think something like that makes sense. Some charge, maybe €10-15 per visit, up to a maximum €60 per year. Id say a lot of people with medical cards visit the doc every time they have a runny nose. A small charge each time might avoid a lot of this. People who need to make a lot of visits then don't have to pay more than the maximum.

murphaph

nesf wrote: »

Because for very sick people or people with a lot of kids it could end up costing a lot more. That and people not go to the doctor to save €10 which would be a bad thing. A €50 upfront charge doesn't distort behaviour in this way.

Germany has a universal health insurance system (you must have insurance and if you are too poor, the state pays). If you go to the doctor you pay €10 which is then "valid" for 3 months. If you go again within the three months it's free. After the three months you pay your tenner again and so it goes.

Previously it was completely free and this tenner charge was introduced to stop people wasting the doctors' time and costing more in premiums for everyone else, when they really weren't that ill at all.

If you are genuinely ill, you pay the tenner. If not, you suck it up and get on with it.

The same charge should be in place in Ireland so people refrain from abusing the medical card.

The stats show that Irish medical card holders are MUCH more likely to present to a doctor than those without. Are we to believe that the medical card holding population are really sicker than those who don't have one?

The saving should be made then in a reduction of the medical card patient premiums paid to GPs for the reduced workload.

seamus

MungBean wrote: »

I'm not sure where in your argument you negated the effect it will have on people with low incomes by arguing its non disproportionate. Whatever about thinking its a reasonable charge it doesnt benefit people just above the threshold only puts pressure on those below.

Ah right, I assumed you meant "negate" as in "justifies".
You can't negate the fact that an extra charge will put more financial pressure on people. It's a tautology - people having less money means they'll have less money.

I fail to see why it's an issue. I don't see why that fact negates the validity of the charge for the medical card. Why should people on medical cards be immune to additional financial pressure?

jank

So for about 98c a week one can get a medical card that entitles one to free medical treatment. Where can one sign up?

nesf

murphaph wrote: »

Germany has a universal health insurance system (you must have insurance and if you are too poor, the state pays). If you go to the doctor you pay €10 which is then "valid" for 3 months. If you go again within the three months it's free. After the three months you pay your tenner again and so it goes.

Previously it was completely free and this tenner charge was introduced to stop people wasting the doctors' time and costing more in premiums for everyone else, when they really weren't that ill at all.

If you are genuinely ill, you pay the tenner. If not, you suck it up and get on with it.

The same charge should be in place in Ireland so people refrain from abusing the medical card.

The stats show that Irish medical card holders are MUCH more likely to present to a doctor than those without. Are we to believe that the medical card holding population are really sicker than those who don't have one?

The saving should be made then in a reduction of the medical card patient premiums paid to GPs for the reduced workload.

I wouldn't oppose that kind of system. I'm worried about a tenner a visit when you hit a bad patch and needed multiple visits over a few weeks and similar.

wolfpawnat

If it is €50 to apply, what is to stop them from denying people once and forcing them to pay to apply again? Just a thought?

€50 sounds reasonable BUT 1/4 of my weekly income in one go to merely apply is quite hard. To apply will take me a month of saving. I keep getting denied it as it is, I cannot afford to reapply every few weeks if it is €50 a go.

seamus

It wouldn't be €50 to apply for a card, it would be €50 once you're issued with the card.

wolfpawnat

seamus wrote: »

It wouldn't be €50 to apply for a card, it would be €50 once you're issued with the card.

Ahh, I was wondering. That seems a little more fair! Only thing is, as already stated, if you are on the SW or min wage, €50 in one go for anything is hard!

woodoo

wolfpawnat wrote: »

If it is €50 to apply, what is to stop them from denying people once and forcing them to pay to apply again? Just a thought?

€50 sounds reasonable BUT 1/4 of my weekly income in one go to merely apply is quite hard. To apply will take me a month of saving. I keep getting denied it as it is, I cannot afford to reapply every few weeks if it is €50 a go.

It won't work like that. They may approve you but not issue the card until you pay the €50 though. Can't see them charge just for the application.

Sir Oxman

miju wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that and should be more IMO. Wish I could visit the GP anytime I wish for the paltry fee of €0.96 a week.

Anyone claiming they can't afford that is plain out just having a laugh and looking for free handouts
. Though to make it more manageable to pay why not simply lower the medical cards welfare payments by €0.96 a week so they arent faced with a €50 lump sum

100% agree.
A bit of joined up thinking.
A reduction of 96c per week on SW payments for Medcard holders instead of a 50€ charge upfront to cover medical costs while out of work.
If needs be why not claw the full prescription fees/GP fees back when that person regains employment over a period of time.
I'd also charge 2€ at least per prescription - but not across the board like govts like to do because they have no imagination whatsoever.
Anyone with a longterm illness/terminal illness who needs huge amounts of meds could be exempt/reduced fees depending on circumstance.

Jaysoose

bcmf wrote: »

When they announce that people on SW are exempt from this I will retract without issue.
Granted, so far , we are arguing about what MAY BE INTRODUCED.
But please dont assume that everyone is on the pigs back having the life of reilly on SW.

Were did i say that everybody on social welfare is on the pigs back? Show me please.

woodoo

gambiaman wrote: »

100% agree.
A bit of joined up thinking.
A reduction of 96c per week on SW payments for Medcard holders instead of a 50€ charge upfront to cover medical costs while out of work.
If needs be why not claw the full prescription fees/GP fees back when that person regains employment over a period of time.
I'd also charge 2€ at least per prescription - but not across the board like govts like to do because they have no imagination whatsoever.
Anyone with a longterm illness/terminal illness who needs huge amounts of meds could be exempt/reduced fees depending on circumstance.

There are alot of people with medical cards who are working.

vicwatson

So for about 98c a week one can get a medical card that entitles one to free medical treatment. Where can one sign up?

I agree, I'd love that, self-employed get nowt.:mad:

bcmf

Jaysoose wrote: »

Were did i say that everybody on social welfare is on the pigs back? Show me please.

Apologies.
It wasnt directly aimed at you but at those who imply that those on SW are on the pigs back.

Sir Oxman

woodoo wrote: »

There are alot of people with medical cards who are working.

No reason why that can't be applied to them also.

saa

woodoo wrote: »

Its the people who are just above the guideline for the medical card who really have it tough.

Or people who are ridiculously below the cut off point.

I have a medical card and I hate the that doctors get a flat fee for their medical card patients even if they don't attend.

I the fact its just about ''free'' so people go when they don't need to, if it was 2 euro a visit people would go as they need it and those who don't go when they need it that's their responsibility.

I don't like the idea that this is becoming a cheap version of health insurance without the perks but there does need to be a fee but only for those who use the services, people are going to want to get the most out of their 50 euros where's the incentive to only use it as you need it, the unnecessary visits take a lot more resources over time,

pay as you go for GP visits you decide to go to, cover for any follow on appointments and refereed treatment.

MungBean

seamus wrote: »

Ah right, I assumed you meant "negate" as in "justifies".
You can't negate the fact that an extra charge will put more financial pressure on people. It's a tautology - people having less money means they'll have less money.

I fail to see why it's an issue. I don't see why that fact negates the validity of the charge for the medical card. Why should people on medical cards be immune to additional financial pressure?

But we all know this isnt about HSE/medical card reform its about cutting public expenditure and clawing back as much as possible to close the deficit and dig our way out of this hole.

Its a charge for the sake of a charge, its simply taking money from people nothing else. Its not about why people on medical cards should be immune to additional financial pressure its about that fact that they qualify for medical cards based on the fact that they have low incomes are more than likely already under financial pressure and any more will result in lowering their standards of living.

This charge targets people specifically on low income. Thats my issue. Its not a case of its a cheap medical card. Its a case of people on low incomes are being hit with a €50 charge. You cant justify that by saying they should be paying anyway. If the government wants to reform the medical card system then we can argue about whether or not people should be entitled to medical cards or at what cost. But prior to this the state has provided free medical care through medical cards, people are entitled to that. Now its just slapping a charge on it to generate some cash from people who wouldnt need the card if they were not in a bad way financially to begin with.

MungBean

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

In all fairness though - it is also given to a lot of people who are not in financial hardship. The GMS scheme has went far beyond its original remit, partly because the last government attempted to buy votes by relaxing eligibility requirements during the boom.

I still think the automatic entitlement for a medical card for OAP's should have been removed during the last budget. Those who could not afford private medical care would still have got a medical card - yet we have a situation where very wealthy people are getting a GMS card automatically.

Furthermore there are public representatives getting people medical cards when they really should not be entitled to them.

I'd agree that there needs to be changes and reform in regards to the medical card and who can get one but a flat charge for anyone who has one is not the answer I dont think.

saa

Oh and I'm not a begrudger I am a med card holder way below the cut off point.
For the benefit of everyone we need to stop the waste and abuse of these cards at a small price to the holders rather than a fee so people feel more entitled to abuse it

Boskowski

Look folks of course it is money out of pockets and of course it will add some 'pressure'. But we're not going to balance the books without any of that will we?

caseyann

I think if people are paying it,there will be alot more vists to the doctors.

It would be interesting to see the stats on how much medical card holders actually use the card often.

woodoo

saa wrote: »

Oh and I'm not a begrudger I am a med card holder way below the cut off point.
For the benefit of everyone we need to stop the waste and abuse of these cards at a small price to the holders rather than a fee so people feel more entitled to abuse it

Yeah €5 per visit would be better i think.

The germans have a €10 per visit and they don't get much wrong. Why can't we just look to countries that are run properly and do as they do?

I think you are right. If its €50 per year people will think they have paid their dues and will feel they have to justify the payment by running to the Doc with every ache and twinge.

murphaph

MungBean wrote: »

Its a charge for the sake of a charge, its simply taking money from people nothing else. Its not about why people on medical cards should be immune to additional financial pressure its about that fact that they qualify for medical cards based on the fact that they have low incomes are more than likely already under financial pressure and any more will result in lowering their standards of living.

Why should this group not experience a drop in living standards with the rest of us?