English RWC turn on each other

worm_tongue

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/england-world-cup-fiasco-leaked-report

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/lewis-moody-england-coaches-leaked-report

OldRio

Deary me.
Well well, it looks as though it wasn't just the press 'picking' on them.

Moody comes across as a bit of a bollox.

thomond2006

jaysus

vinny chase

I'd love to know which player made the '£35,000 down the toilet' comment.

GerM

Sooooo...people still advocating Brian Smith for Irish backs?!

Some world of crap there. It's hard to know what to believe and what not to. Everyone is just turning on each other. Moody already came out previously and stated that he felt his captaincy off the field wasn't great in terms of getting the players in the right frame of mind i.e. too much focus on being jovial and a relaxed atmosphere. He has retired from international rugby now so I reckon he's being scapegoated a little bit. At the end of the day, the players made a complete balls of their behaviour and they need to take responsibility. We've seen in the past that even when MJ has been heavy handed there has still been breaches of sqaud protocol such as Cipriani. They're grown men and they need to put their hands up and be counted in a WC.

EKClarke

OldRio wrote: »

Deary me.
Well well, it looks as though it wasn't just the press 'picking' on them.

Moody comes across as a bit of a bollox.

We always knew that though.

Unshelved

Is there anything new here though? There's clearly something rotten in English rugby. The carry-on in Harlequins with "bloodgate". The English sideline team in the World Cup substituting the wrong balls. The branded gumshields. How it's very frequently the English players who are the most arrogant and the first to turn on the managers in a B&I Lions Tour - even as far back as Matt Dawson and Austin Healey in 2001 taking the press's shilling to attack their colleagues and the backroom staff.

It's all coming to a head now and the dismal performance in the World Cup just confirms what a spoiled bunch of brats they are - indulged by backroom staff who are prepared to cheat on their behalf. This report could be the best thing to happen to English rugby in the long term - by exposing how dysfunctional it is it could be the starting point for rebuilding a real English team.

JustinDee

GerM wrote: »

Sooooo...people still advocating Brian Smith for Irish backs?!

I don't think a slamming by an unnamed England player is anything like valid critique at this stage.

Guy:Incognito

"It has also been confirmed that the RFU was held to ransom by the players before the tournament began, with the squad threatening to boycott the eve-of-departure dinner. "It is very disappointing that a senior group, led by Lewis Moody, disputed the level of payment for the World Cup squad, which led to meetings with RFU executives," Andrew said in a report leaked to the Times. "I believe this led to a further unsettling of the squad just before departure, which included a threat by the squad not to attend the World Cup send-off dinner at Twickenham. It suggested that some of the senior players were more focused on money than getting the rugby right."

Bit self serving from the RFU no? BAsically players should take what they are given and shut up about it? Not happy with your wages? tough, do it anyway. Surely they are entitled to negotiate he wage they feel they deserve?

Nothign stopping the RFU picking different players if they are not happy with the money the guys want.

What really makes this strange to me is that Johnson and Woodward worked together for a very long time. Does this mean that Johnson had seen Woodward's almost "obsessive professionalism" as a problem?

It seems that he tried to go almost full turn the other way, and ended up overdoing it substantially.

Fishooks12

Pretty disgraceful stuff really from a group of already unlike-able English players

It's reassuring that it's hard to imagine any of the Irish team pulling this crap


Pity that Henry ruled himself out of the job from an English point of view, he could have brought some much needed discipline.

CJhaughey

You might see Eddie in there yet!

PhatPiggins

So just to be clear, for the first time we've had senior England officals publicly questioning the catastrophe that has been Rob Andrews association with the RFU. Things were looking bad for the arch bluffer but suddenly secret reports damning everyone but the elite direcor of rugby compiled by none other then Rob Andrew himself are 'leaked' to the press :pac::pac:

Nice deflecting there Rob.

GerM

He's made of teflon.

As an aside, they could do a lot worse than make a play for Jake White. He's used to dealing with rubbish on a day to day basis. He united a camp in total disarray and brought them to the top of the world. Tri-nations victory the year after the Staaldraad debacle and then built on that towards 2007 whilst wading through a world of political crap all the time. He's also a very technical coach which is something that has been sorely lacking in the English set up.

JustinDee

PhatPiggins wrote: »

So just to be clear, for the first time we've had senior England officals publicly questioning the catastrophe that has been Rob Andrews association with the RFU. Things were looking bad for the arch bluffer but suddenly secret reports damning everyone but the elite direcor of rugby compiled by none other then Rob Andrew himself are 'leaked' to the press :pac::pac:

Nice deflecting there Rob.

Not quite that simple.

At exec level, they fired the very guy hired to preen the union's systems just because one faction didn't like his findings. His replacement was then let go but is now being kept on until middle of December.

Problems are deeper than attitude of a few players in the squad.

.ak

Pretty hard reading tbh... It's an unfortunate part of professionalism it seems.

What makes it even worse is that a team with such background issues went out at the same stage that a seemingly hard working, well gelled Irish squad did as well.

Teferi

This link from the Telegraph is probably better. Lays out more of the comments from the players.

One in particular that we might be interested in

“Ireland had been in there [the Altitude Bar in Queenstown] and were much worse, but I think they might have taken the press with them.”

Silly mentality to have - "Oh they were allowed do it, so we should have been". Sad, sad stuff.

JustinDee

Teferi wrote: »

This link from the Telegraph is probably better. Lays out more of the comments from the players

There'll be trouble about that. They've lifted the article from The Times, to whom the leak was made in the first place.

Junior

Even the blame is part of the I'm alright jack mentality...

“There were two massive playbooks, which many players didn’t look at because it was in too much depth.”

“To go into World Cup games not having a game-plan, any structure or clear idea of what we were going to do in attack was astonishing.”

So which was it ? Over complicated and too much depth or not enough planning ?

CatFromHue

I'm not sure what to think of this. It is in all parties interest to lay the blame on the other parties; the players on the RFU and management, the RFU on the players. The only one who you could say has taken any responsibility is Johnson.

I would be of the opinion that the press found a nice story about the players dwarf tossing and have decided to do a number on the team. The dwarf tossing....well is there any evidence of this? I don't think so. Any possible chance to show the players in a bad light is being used. I've no doubt there were some problems but all touring parties have them. Does anyone honestly think the Irish team didn't go out at all? I posted a pic here before of ROG and Ferris looking very worse for wear at some stage.

I'm not sure if anyone has seen any of the enquries into the English Tabloids at the moment. They are in my opinion agenda driven, not fact driven. A happy, well behaved team does not sell papers!

Zuffer

Seems like a lot of the problems originate from the attitude of the senior players. Sounds like some of the younger players are more savvy when it comes to things like dealing with the media - a siege mentality isn't a good strategy, something has to go on the back pages.

If the younger players were being discouraged from training hard, the response has to be a clear-out of the old guard.

irishbucsfan

Teferi wrote: »

Attempting to shift blame to Ireland - "Oh they were allowed do it, so we should have been", for their own behaviour that night. Sad, sad stuff.

I had heard the same thing about the Irish players before.

I don't think that's shifting the blame. If you were in the English players position and you went and did the exact same thing as another team's players, then made out to be a villain while they all got away with it, you'd be very frustrated. The English press mentioned Ferris doing some stuff but it was completely ignored here.

buck65

I heard Ferris picked up a dwarf and carried him 20 yards with O Callaghan and O Connell egging him on.
Proof -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQp-7fHbxb4

PhatPiggins

buck65 wrote: »

I heard Ferris picked up a dwarf and carried him 20 yards with O Callaghan and O Connell egging him on.
Proof -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQp-7fHbxb4

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Thats priceless, well done buck.

Crash

Junior wrote: »

Even the blame is part of the I'm alright jack mentality...

“There were two massive playbooks, which many players didn’t look at because it was in too much depth.”

“To go into World Cup games not having a game-plan, any structure or clear idea of what we were going to do in attack was astonishing.”

So which was it ? Over complicated and too much depth or not enough planning ?

I think you have to take into account that the quotes coming out here are fairly cherry picked by the media to bring the controversial ones to the fore - I'd say the full report is fascinating reading.

agree that they are cherry picked, but following the link from Teferi, there really is an awful lot of negative quotes!

CIARAN_BOYLE

Junior wrote: »

So which was it ? Over complicated and too much depth or not enough planning ?

Over complicated and too much depth which the players didn't understand or look at and did whatever they want.

.ak

Teferi wrote: »

Attempting to shift blame to Ireland - "Oh they were allowed do it, so we should have been", for their own behaviour that night. Sad, sad stuff.

Ah yeh, I'm sure the lads from the Irish camp certainly went out and enjoyed themselves, definitely. It'd just never make a decent story, imagine the headline...


"IRISH PERSON DRINKS BEER"

:rolleyes:

Non-story of the century.

.ak

Infact, I have no issues with the English squad enjoying themselves either, so long as it didn't hurt anybody.

Teferi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I had heard the same thing about the Irish players before.

I don't think that's shifting the blame. If you were in the English players position and you went and did the exact same thing as another team's players, then made out to be a villain while they all got away with it, you'd be very frustrated. The English press mentioned Ferris doing some stuff but it was completely ignored here.

Shifting the blame was the wrong phrase. What I meant was it's a very childish mentality to have of "Oh they were allowed do it, so we should have been". That's real schoolboy stuff. Especially if you are an English sports team, they should know by know that their media is just waiting to do them in.

smurphy29

Zuffer wrote: »

Seems like a lot of the problems originate from the attitude of the senior players. Sounds like some of the younger players are more savvy when it comes to things like dealing with the media - a siege mentality isn't a good strategy, something has to go on the back pages.

If the younger players were being discouraged from training hard, the response has to be a clear-out of the old guard.

Yes Zuffer, it does, and I think this is the most surprising thing to come out of it! If you look through the England squad you'd think the idiot-quotient was the younger guys: Ashton, Hartley, Haskell, Tuilagi, and so on, but it reads like it was the older brigade that had their little clique going on which undermined things. You'd have thought the likes of Easter, Cueto, Shaw, Wilko, Thommo and Moody were hard-working, honest pros, but it seems not.

JustinDee

My post pipped away.

Just replied saying the Irish squad night out was entirely different with no issues whatsoever.
Players go out to let steam off. No biggie.

jasper11

talk sport radio goin to town on them. serious ranting by ex players

twinytwo

English rugby is slowly becoming like english soccer... too many big ego's on the team who think they are gods gift to rugby, when in fact only a few of them are anyway good.

Playing for your country is privilage that many players never get a chance to do.

A lengthy ban for the lot of them might sort their heads out. After the world cup debacle..everyone of the them owe the english public an apology.

Otacon

Smith steps down. The first of many I am guessing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15876443.stm

Attack coach Brian Smith, who was among those criticised in the leaked reviews into England's World Cup campaign, has left his post.

The 45-year-old was appointed by manager Martin Johnson - who resigned earlier this month - in 2008.

Smith won six caps for Australia and nine for Ireland in his playing career, but came under fire in leaked reports from the players' union.

"I would be delighted if he went," one player was reported to have said.

"Our attack play was boring, uninventive, lacklustre, even schoolboy at times."

Another is reported to have said: "He didn't offer anything. The players had all the ideas for strategy. All he did was write their ideas on the board."

Among several other damning comments about Smith in the reports was: "If we'd got to the semi-finals or final it would have papered over the cracks and the worst thing is Brian Smith would have stayed in his job. It might be a blessing."

Smith was the only one of Johnson's coaches to actually be appointed by the former England captain, who has also stepped down in the wake of England's disappointing tournament in New Zealand.

Johnson's men were beaten in the quarter-finals by France - their worst ever World Cup performance - and the spotlight was also on their off-the-field behaviour, which saw England's players in the news for the wrong reasons.

irishbucsfan

Hire him

.ak

Steve Thomson to take up new attacking coach role.

































:pac:

CatFromHue

This has become a trial by media!

who the fug

CatFromHue wrote: »

This has become a trial by media!

No, the fans have been whinging for ages , the media are just catching up


Consistant whine is to get rid of Andrew

CatFromHue

who the fug wrote: »

No, the fans have been whinging for ages , the media are just catching up


Consistant whine is to get rid of Andrew

I agree about Andrew.

On Smith though do you think he quit because his employers told him he wasn't up to the job or because an unnamed player said he was rubbish in the media?

Chucky the tree

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Pretty disgraceful stuff really from a group of already unlike-able English players

It's reassuring that it's hard to imagine any of the Irish team pulling this crap

Pity that Henry ruled himself out of the job from an English point of view, he could have brought some much needed discipline.

Not sure how you can tar all of them really. It's clear there are a few senior players who took the piss but it seems that a lot of the guys were pissed off about the fact they were let away with it.

CatFromHue wrote: »

I agree about Andrew.

On Smith though do you think he quit because his employers told him he wasn't up to the job or because an unnamed player said he was rubbish in the media?

No one said he was rubbish in the media. Like Johnson he had to go because he simply didn't perform well enough.

VinLieger

The overarching feel ive gotten from reading the comments seems to me that the players want it all but dont wanna do the work for it. So many of their opinions are conflicting, "the play books were too big and complictaed" to "there wasnt enough planning".
It seems to me the english players have developed the feeling over the past they deserved to be treated like their counterparts in football and worshipped like gods.
Now this isnt just the players fault i dont think the RFU havent done much to dissuade them of the fact, and have made some pretty piss poor decisions as well.
The whole union just seems to be rotten from the core and i dont see England coming out of this for a while

who the fug

CatFromHue wrote: »

I agree about Andrew.

On Smith though do you think he quit because his employers told him he wasn't up to the job or because an unnamed player said he was rubbish in the media?

I don't know but the back play from England was not like what he had at London Irish , have heard that he no input into selection

Would he be welcome back at LI if Toby Booth went, most defiantly

Andy Robinson couldn’t do it, Brain Ashton couldn’t do it Now Johnson is gone, the premiership limps from season to season .

Something is rotten in at Twickers Septic tank land

Kinger83

Article stating the RFU put pressure on Haskel, Ashton and Hartley to pay the chambermaid money for her silence.

Apparently the allegations she made were also entirely false.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com//25112011/58/world-cup-rfu-wanted-silence-chambermaid.html

JustinDee

who the fug wrote: »

Something is rotten in at Twickers Septic tank land

Septic Tank = Yank ie. American.

who the fug

JustinDee wrote: »

Septic Tank = Yank ie. American.

Twickenham is a S***** hole of a stadium built for midgets by mental midgets, who make you bring you own lube for the shafting

Septic tank is me being nice about the place.

CatFromHue

Kinger83 wrote: »

Article stating the RFU put pressure on Haskel, Ashton and Hartley to pay the chambermaid money for her silence.

Apparently the allegations she made were also entirely false.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com//25112011/58/world-cup-rfu-wanted-silence-chambermaid.html

This kind of makes sense actually. Ashton was interviewed by Paul Kimmage in The Sunday Times a few weeks ago where he said he did nothing wrong.


“I regret going out in the quarter-finals but otherwise I have nothing to regret,” he affirms in Splashdown. I remind him about Annabel Newton, the 23-year-old hotel worker from Dunedin, who complained that she had been harassed by Ashton, Dylan Hartley and James Haskell. “Is that not a regret? I ask.

“I don’t see that as a regret,” he says. “It’s three lads in a hotel room but people want to hear something else. They don’t want to hear that it was a nothing story that should never have been printed and that is exactly the case. She just took it upon herself to feel that she had an opportunity to get something out of it.”

“She cashed in?” I suggest.

“Yeah.”

“She wasn’t upset?”

“No, not at all. She was working with us the days after and . . . ”

“But if she wasn’t upset, why would you apologise?”

“We didn’t apologise.”

“It says in the book that you did.”

“No it doesn’t.” I quote him a passage on page 235: “We said . . . she couldn’t have her walkie-talkie back unless she gave us chocolate . . . if the remarks were found to be lewd we’re sorry if we offended her. We offered her a heartfelt apology and a bunch of flowers.”

“What we apologised for was not what we said,” he smiles. “We apologised for making her feel upset. We didn’t want that. We never once apologised for what had happened.”

“But that’s my point,” I counter. “She was upset.”

“Apparently.”

“So you weren’t aware of it?”

“She went to a paper and said she was upset. But at the time she was clearly not upset.”

“It has been damaging for you?”

“Anything like that in a newspaper is going to be damaging.”

“But it’s not something you would change?”

“I wouldn’t. Where do you draw the line? You’re in a hotel room with your mates. A member of staff comes in. Do we all run out? I would never leave the room because a girl has come in.”

“I’m not asking you to leave the room,” I reply. “I’m asking you not to take her walkie-talkie. I’m asking you to stop videoing her when she enters. I’m asking you not to make fun of her. What if this was your daughter? Would you like to have her subjected to that?

“No,” he replies. “I wouldn’t want my daughter to be put in that situation.”

“It wasn’t your intent to upset her?” I suggest.

“No. We read the situation wrong.”

JustinDee

who the fug wrote: »

Twickenham is a S***** hole of a stadium built for midgets by mental midgets, who make you bring you own lube for the shafting

Septic tank is me being nice about the place.

I think its an excellent stadium with not one bad seat in the entire place. Plenty of eateries, bars and beer tents for supporters. Also a top rugby store there.
Working at games there, the people who we deal with are absolutely dead-on.

Only prob with it is the routes in and out by road.

who the fug

JustinDee wrote: »

I think its an excellent stadium with not one bad seat in the entire place. Plenty of eateries, bars and beer tents for supporters. Also a top rugby store there.
Working at games there, the people who we deal with are absolutely dead-on.

Only prob with it is the routes in and out by road.

One the longest threads on a LI website every year is the whine about that dump when we have to play the double header.

When Harlequinns played there big game last year the ticket manager for them (EX LI employee ) was take aback at the hatred of the place, one of the few actually worked with LISC to make it better for the fans

The Munster game was held at Reading because the LI managment knew full well the fans would not stand for going to Twickenham.

You say you work there, try sitting in one there mickey mouse seats for two hours.


Anyone in England who goes to Rugby week in week out dreads the place

Otacon

JustinDee wrote: »

I think its an excellent stadium with not one bad seat in the entire place. Plenty of eateries, bars and beer tents for supporters. Also a top rugby store there.
Working at games there, the people who we deal with are absolutely dead-on.

Only prob with it is the routes in and out by road.

The seats are a little cramped though. But every ground I have been to has been like this, except the Emirates Stadium.

JustinDee

who the fug wrote: »

One the longest threads on a LI website every year is the whine about that dump when we have to play the double header

When Harlequinns played there big game last year the ticket manager for them (EX LI employee ) was take aback at the hatred of the place, one of the few actually worked with LISC to make it better for the fans

Would you like some anecdotes to counter this? I've a few.

who the fug wrote: »

The Munster game was held at Reading because the LI managment knew full well the fans would not stand for going to Twickenham

It was held there because firstly, capacity and secondly to a lesser degree, cost. No home team wants more away supporters than home supporters.
Thats why.

who the fug wrote: »

You say you work there, try sitting in one there mickey mouse seats for two hours

I don't work there. I have been working at Ireland games there. I have also been to matches there in stands and it is nowhere near the whinge-magnet you make it out to be.

who the fug wrote: »

Anyone in England who goes to Rugby week in week out dreads the place

Slight generalisation there, methinks.