revelation: ketones or ketosis raises blood sugar levels

eilo1

Right so I had a bit of a revelation yesterday and wanted to share this with the health and fitness forum. Now Im sorry if this was obvious to everybody else and Im the slow one who just realised it. But switching into ketosis for energy production also raises the blood sugar levels there by causing a release of insulin. So why the hell do people go on about the "insulin spike"???


Im a type one diabetic who is constantly eating lots of carbs to keep my sugars up to meet the demands of exercise. So this opens up a whole new possibility of dieting for me! :pac:

Hanley

eilo1 wrote: »

Right so I had a bit of a revelation yesterday and wanted to share this with the health and fitness forum. Now Im sorry if this was obvious to everybody else and Im the slow one who just realised it. But switching into ketosis for energy production also raises the blood sugar levels there by causing a release of insulin. So why the hell do people go on about the "insulin spike"???


Im a type one diabetic who is constantly eating lots of carbs to keep my sugars up to meet the demands of exercise. So this opens up a whole new possibility of dieting for me! :pac:

You're looking at it too simplisticly.

It's constantly varied blood sugar levels that are the problem.

Really simply, high carb intake = high insulin secretion = rapidly lowered blood sugar levels = your body creating hunger signals because blood sugar levels appear to low to provide energy to sustain activity... do this long term and your start to produce excessive amounts of insulin and move toward insulin resistance, chronically elevated blood sugar levels and all the bad stuff which that entails.

Insulin and blood sugar levels aren't exactly the problem, it's big swings in them over the course of the day that are the issue. Hence it makes sense to eat low/moderate carb levels and low GI foods which stop these big swings from happening and prevent excessive hunger levels/post food energy crashes.

You'd want to confirm with your doctor if being in ketosis creates enough of an insulin response for your purposes. I doubt it does.

rocky

eilo1 wrote: »

Right so I had a bit of a revelation yesterday and wanted to share this with the health and fitness forum. Now Im sorry if this was obvious to everybody else and Im the slow one who just realised it. But switching into ketosis for energy production also raises the blood sugar levels there by causing a release of insulin. So why the hell do people go on about the "insulin spike"???


Im a type one diabetic who is constantly eating lots of carbs to keep my sugars up to meet the demands of exercise. So this opens up a whole new possibility of dieting for me! :pac:

What are you talking about, a type one diabetic has no insulin, how are you producing any, in response to ketones no less?

eilo1

rocky wrote: »

eilo1 wrote: »

Right so I had a bit of a revelation yesterday and wanted to share this with the health and fitness forum. Now Im sorry if this was obvious to everybody else and Im the slow one who just realised it. But switching into ketosis for energy production also raises the blood sugar levels there by causing a release of insulin. So why the hell do people go on about the "insulin spike"???


Im a type one diabetic who is constantly eating lots of carbs to keep my sugars up to meet the demands of exercise. So this opens up a whole new possibility of dieting for me! :pac:

What are you talking about, a type one diabetic has no insulin, how are you producing any, in response to ketones no less?

I know my body does not produce insulin thanks. What i talking about in relationto me is that my bloods go up and i need take insulin if i slip into ketosis. (not to be confused with keyoacidosis).
I was also then asking why there is so much negativity surrounding insulin spikes whenketones cause the same rise in sugarlevels and therefore cause insulin release in healthy individuals.

eilo1

Hanley wrote: »

eilo1 wrote: »

Right so I had a bit of a revelation yesterday and wanted to share this with the health and fitness forum. Now Im sorry if this was obvious to everybody else and Im the slow one who just realised it. But switching into ketosis for energy production also raises the blood sugar levels there by causing a release of insulin. So why the hell do people go on about the "insulin spike"???


Im a type one diabetic who is constantly eating lots of carbs to keep my sugars up to meet the demands of exercise. So this opens up a whole new possibility of dieting for me! :pac:

You're looking at it too simplisticly.

It's constantly varied blood sugar levels that are the problem.

Really simply, high carb intake = high insulin secretion = rapidly lowered blood sugar levels = your body creating hunger signals because blood sugar levels appear to low to provide energy to sustain activity... do this long term and your start to produce excessive amounts of insulin and move toward insulin resistance, chronically elevated blood sugar levels and all the bad stuff which that entails.

Insulin and blood sugar levels aren't exactly the problem, it's big swings in them over the course of the day that are the issue. Hence it makes sense to eat low/moderate carb levels and low GI foods which stop these big swings from happening and prevent excessive hunger levels/post food energy crashes.

You'd want to confirm with your doctor if being in ketosis creates enough of an insulin response for your purposes. I doubt it does.

I can't produce insulin, infact the relevance of this to me is that i need to take insulin when im eating very little or no carb. Which is new territory for me and my diabetic team.

The thing i was wondering about in normal people is that to my knowledge the normal healthy adult has excellent blood sugar control as supported by hba1c

sorry im on my phone ill get back later

rocky

My understanding is that in healthy people, it's not the ketones that increase blood sugar; rather, on a ketogenic diet, due to the low levels of carb intake, the body preserves all the sugar it can get/manufacture for brain function. This results in insulin resistance of a transitory nature (physiological) which prevents other tissues to absorb as much blood sugar (muscles for example). This can be reversed after a few days of normal carb intake. Again, in healthy people.

In the case of type 1 diabetics, it's not the ketones that increase blood sugar, but rather the unchecked glycogenolysis (transformation of liver glycogen to glucose) due to the lack of insulin that increases the blood sugar. It's possibly a bit more pronounced on a keto diet as mentioned above. In healthy people, a basal level of insulin will stabilize the blood sugar coming from liver glycogen.

eilo1

rocky wrote: »

My understanding is that in healthy people, it's not the ketones that increase blood sugar; rather, on a ketogenic diet, due to the low levels of carb intake, the body preserves all the sugar it can get/manufacture for brain function. This results in insulin resistance of a transitory nature (physiological) which prevents other tissues to absorb as much blood sugar (muscles for example). This can be reversed after a few days of normal carb intake. Again, in healthy people.

In the case of type 1 diabetics, it's not the ketones that increase blood sugar, but rather the unchecked glycogenolysis (transformation of liver glycogen to glucose) due to the lack of insulin that increases the blood sugar. It's possibly a bit more pronounced on a keto diet as mentioned above. In healthy people, a basal level of insulin will stabilize the blood sugar coming from liver glycogen.

Thanks rocky some of this is an eye opener to me. However Im still confused at to why people talk about anything that releases insulin like its a bad thing. Maybe they are just a little confused.

In my case it interesting that my basal rate of insulin has stayed the same but its now inadequate because Im not eating as much carbohydrates. I have traces of ketones at the min. My bloods have been creeping up all day, but I keep bolusing to get them back in target I may try an increase in basal levels in the morning to see if that holds them at the normal range.

If you think this raise in BS is just liver glycologyn then surely its going to run out some time soon, especially with exercise. Any idea what will happen then?
My team in the hospital dont know but are interested to see what happens.

mloc

eilo1 wrote: »

Thanks rocky some of this is an eye opener to me. However Im still confused at to why people talk about anything that releases insulin like its a bad thing. Maybe they are just a little confused.

The repeated insulin spikes in healthy people can cause fluctuations in blood glucose levels, which over time can lead to a serious of biological events contributing to insulin resistance, and perhaps ultimately type II diabetes.

This is of course over simplified, and a bit extreme. There are many causes of insulin resistance.

eilo1

mloc wrote: »

The repeated insulin spikes in healthy people can cause fluctuations in blood glucose levels, which over time can lead to a serious of biological events contributing to insulin resistance, and perhaps ultimately type II diabetes.

This is of course over simplified, and a bit extreme. There are many causes of insulin resistance.

Thats well known and accepted mloc.

The thing Im asking is if ketogenic diets also raise blood sugar levels and therefore cause a release of insulin to bring them back into normal range. Why is there so much negativity talk about "insulin spikes" etc.
From what im learning at the min it looks like ketogenic diets increase insulin resistance and also cause insulin release or "spikes". But they seem to do it in a lesser amount.
If this is the case then the terminology people are using is incorrect??

Im not saying any of this is for definite its just an interest I have at the minute and something Iv struggled to understand for quite some time!:o

rocky

eilo1 wrote: »

Thanks rocky some of this is an eye opener to me. However Im still confused at to why people talk about anything that releases insulin like its a bad thing. Maybe they are just a little confused.

In my case it interesting that my basal rate of insulin has stayed the same but its now inadequate because Im not eating as much carbohydrates. I have traces of ketones at the min. My bloods have been creeping up all day, but I keep bolusing to get them back in target I may try an increase in basal levels in the morning to see if that holds them at the normal range.

If you think this raise in BS is just liver glycologyn then surely its going to run out some time soon, especially with exercise. Any idea what will happen then?
My team in the hospital dont know but are interested to see what happens.

Probably better to wait for someone who knows what they're talking about... but in the meantime ...

The most important effect of insulin is not the one that 'helps store fat', but the one that prevents tissue breakdown for energy, as you're discovering. In the absence of insulin, your body breaks down fat as evidenced by the ketone bodies in your urine and at the same time, breaks down liver glycogen that increase your blood sugar, and I hate being the bearer of bad news, but it also breaks down protein (i.e. muscle) which also increases BS.

Surely your doctor knows all this, because it sounds too close to ketoacidosis for them not to notice? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketoacidosis

eilo1

Oh no I meant that type one diabetes and ketogenic diets is a new thing. Thats why my team are interested to see what happens. They are well aware of the ketoacidosis etc.
Traditionally types ones controlled BS with low gi carbs, strict regime and insulin. Now with pumps and short acting insulins we can try ketogenic diets.

rocky

eilo1 wrote: »

Why is there so much negativity talk about "insulin spikes" etc.
From what im learning at the min it looks like ketogenic diets increase insulin resistance and also cause insulin release or "spikes". But they seem to do it in a lesser amount.
If this is the case then the terminology people are using is incorrect??

Because people like simple explanations, even if incorrect. And low carb diets work, so how can you like insulin??!!111
They work, but for different reasons than less insulin spikes.

The insulin resistance keto causes is physiological (transitory) in healthy people. But type 1 diabetics have no beta cell function and seems to me high level of NEFAs (fatty acids) in the blood are really bad. Then again, if the exogenic insulin can be dosed very acurately, it might be ok.

For more on this I'm reading this blog: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/

This article seems to point out that exposure to NEFA/FFA inhibits beta cell function:
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/04/long-term-exposure-to-fatty-acids-and.html

drdeadlift

Jennygraham wrote: »

I think insulin spike can cause reduction the glucose level in the blood.So making it habit is really very risky.

You "think" it either does or does not.

Keep carb intake low,avoid ketosis and avoid a hight carb diet.