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The Contador Appeal [mod warning post #3]

  • 21-11-2011 2:38am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭


    Now that the trial is underway thought we should have a new thread for it.

    What are your opinions on it?

    I don't think he was juicing tbh. He's too consistently good, his natural setting is sublime, why would a guy like that even need to take anything to boost him.

    Do you think he should be banned?

    The tour wouldnt be the same without him, in my opinion he's the only one who could really give Cadel a bash next year.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    just because youre consistently good doesnt mean youre not/have been doping


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,394 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    NO speculating as to whether a rider has been doped or not, it's in the forum charter.

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,234 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    The evidence as reported in the media pointed to autologous blood transfusions tainted with the resides from out-of-competition clenbuterol use, both of which are illegal. Or it could be a contaminated steak. Who the hell knows.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    Lumen wrote: »
    Who the hell knows.

    ..and at this stage who the hell cares . Beyond farcical at this stage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,139 ✭✭✭-Trek-


    Will Sky news be covering the trial?


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Wonder if Dr Conrad will testify?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 492 ✭✭seven stars




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    NO speculating as to whether a rider has been doped or not, it's in the forum charter.

    TBF its a complex case where no one is disputing the fact that he had a banned substance in his system. The argumnet is whther he took it deliberately or whether he was the innocent victim of contaminated food stuff......


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,444 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    RobFowl wrote: »
    TBF its a complex case where no one is disputing the fact that he had a banned substance in his system. The argumnet is whther he took it deliberately or whether he was the innocent victim of contaminated food stuff......
    The OP raised the question of "juicing" which could be interpreted as questioning whether Contador was guilty of doping beyond the Clenbuterol situation, or whether he took Clenbuterol deliberately. The warning was put in place to avoid the risk of posters making allegations (and some posts prior to the warning have been deleted) in the absence of any official findings to this effect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    RobFowl wrote: »
    TBF its a complex case where no one is disputing the fact that he had a banned substance in his system. The argumnet is whther he took it deliberately or whether he was the innocent victim of contaminated food stuff......

    Fair enough, but his entire defense rests on an area that can in no way be proven. This is beyond ridiculous at this stage.
    Spain intervened and left him off the hook. After that happened the strict liabillity clause went out the window. UCI/WADA should cease and desist as this case simply cannot be won.

    The focus should for now and ever more turn to taking testing and sanctioning for doping out of the hands of national organisactions and the UCI itself.

    If this were a crime under Irish law, I couldnt imagine the DPP taking a case.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Beasty wrote: »
    The OP raised the question of "juicing" which could be interpreted as questioning whether Contador was guilty of doping beyond the Clenbuterol situation, or whether he took Clenbuterol deliberately. The warning was put in place to avoid the risk of posters making allegations (and some posts prior to the warning have been deleted) in the absence of any official findings to this effect.

    I take your points on completely and Capt Havoc's too. And not questioning a Mod descision either. I think the charter is clear on this subject and rightly so.
    Just commenting that its an odd case in that there is no dispute that clenbuterol was in his system
    Under strict liability he should be banned but if he raises enough doubt and gets off it will undermine a lot of confience in WADA.
    Though as Bcmf says at this point wtf cares .....

    (I do actually but you know what I mean..)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 353 ✭✭MungoMan


    I'm trying to understand Contadors defense.

    His team brought beef from Spain to France for Contador and his team to eat.
    Does anyone know how many KM was the journey from Spain to France to bring the beef ?
    Was it because there was not beef readily for sale in the area of France where they were (i.e. some remote area on a mountain) ?
    Or was it because the Spanish beef was perceived to be better/cheaper ?

    Also I wonder did they have refriguration to stop the beef going off in the journey ?


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,444 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    MungoMan wrote: »
    I'm trying to understand Contadors defense.
    If you do a search there are probably half a dozen threads on the Contador "case" going over the initial test results, his defence and just about anything else you can think of

    I'm not going to do a search for them myself, but I cannot recall anything going into any of your questions in detail

    Ultimately the CAS wll review the evidence and arguments put on behalf of Contador. I am sure they will detail the pertinent points whenver they issue their decision


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Yes it has gone on a very looong time, and watching it play out in real-time is very nauseating, but...........I do feel it is important to get the truth out, ie. is he guilty, is he a cheat, did he transfuse or not. If he is found guilty, it's very damning for cycling, the general public are greeted with yet another TDF winner getting stripped of a title, and the general consensus of: "sure if he's at it, they're all at it", will be strengthened again.
    I find it a fascinating case, every bit of extra evidence or snippet of info has me challenging my opinion on the case. The whole affair is commical aswell, I'd like to see a comedy sketch of it, with Dara Ó Briain playing the part of Mr. McQuaid, and Mr Bean playing the part of Contador, but who would play the part of the 'Butcher from Irun" ?? :pac:

    This is interesting from Cyclingnews:
    WADA and UCI will instead focus on Contador’s biological passport data before and during the 2010 Tour de France, with Michael Ashenden among those to have analysed the rider’s blood values. L’Équipe reports that particular attention will be paid to Contador’s haemoglobin level in May 2010. The French newspaper claims that it rose to 17.9g/l in May 2010, a spike from its usual level of between 16 to 16.5g/l.

    Here's a good update:
    Alberto Contador, seated on one side of the table, to the left of the three arbitrators, in front of the three lawyers for the prosecution, did not miss a single second of Monday's first session of deliberations, which lasted a little over five hours. Neither will he be absent during the sessions between now and Thursday at the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, Switzerland.

    Under its gaze Contador's honor and virtue will be decided. The hearing will also revisit the 2010 Tour de France, where Contador scored his third victory at the event, a victory the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the International Cycling Union believe he should be stripped of after he returned a urine sample containing traces of the banned substance clenbuterol there. But, more than heroics on two wheels, the talk here will be centered on livestock, slaughterhouses and farmers.

    To this curious subject more than 30 people dedicated their time and expertise on Monday, mostly lawyers but also scientific experts, a private detective from Madrid and a Basque butcher.

    Three of the five scheduled witnesses testified on the first day of the hearing: Javier López, the director of Asoprovac, the Spanish association of cattle farmers; Xavier Zabaleta, the butcher from Irún who sold the meat; and César Martín, a detective hired by Contador to trace the origins of the suspect steak.

    - The prosecution

    Based on a scientific study, the WADA argues the possibility of a cow in Castilla y León being fattened with clenbuterol is 0.0065 percent. Although the steak was bought in Irún, in the Basque Country, the AMA report refers to Castilla y León because its investigations establish the cow was reared in Pedraza de Alba (Salamanca) and slaughtered in Fuentesaúco (Zamora). The WADA also stated that 143 cases of illegal fattening with clenbuterol were detected from 1999 to 2002, and just four from 2003 to 2009.

    The prosecution's theory is that Contador followed a course of injections of 200 micrograms of clenbuterol for three weeks and then his blood was extracted and through apheresis, the plasma was divided from the red blood cells. Several weeks later 200 milliliters of plasma was reinjected. If a person weighing 66 kilos urinates every three hours and a little over a liter a day, 12 to 24 hours after the reinfusion, around 50 picograms of clenbuterol would be present, the quantity found in Contador.

    - The defense

    Contador's own pharmacokinetic study refutes the prosecution theory completely, pointing especially to the elevated level of toxicity that would be present in a person who had injected clenbuterol for three weeks. The cyclist's defense also emphasizes that for an athlete who undergoes as many tests as Contador - 32 in the seven months before the 2010 Tour - taking a banned substance for three consecutive weeks would be sheer folly. The study also questions WADA's calculation of the amount Contador urinates during competition, based on mid-Tour controls; WADA says 1.172 liters but Contador's team says he urinates as much as two liters. In the report, Contador himself states that if he only fills three-quarters of a sample container, it is for hygienic reasons. In 112 experiments using the WADA data, Tomás Martín Jiménez of the University of Tennessee found no scenario in which 50 picograms of clenbuterol could have been detected.

    The other main component of Contador's defense is Sheila Bird, a biostatistician and a world authority on mad cow disease who painted a bleak panorama of health controls in the European meat industry. According to Bird, and based on EU and Spanish regional data, only 900 of every one million cattle are tested before sale in Europe. Therefore, it can be affirmed that 99 percent of beef consumed in Spain has not been through any checks. According to Contador, a brother of the Salamancan farmer who raised the animal had previously been implicated in a case of illegal fattening with clenbuterol.

    Here's what the Butcher said, badly translated :o, but he seems to say that he doesn't know where it came from but definitely not from the Basque region :eek::
    "Of course I like cycling, but one thing is the fans and other decisions affecting my business." Although his name had not transpired today, Javier Zabaleta takes a year to be, very reluctantly, the butcher of the most talked about. Contador's lawyers maintain that one of the establishments, Larrezabal-Group, which has sold Irun sirloin supposedly originated contaminated positive rider. For the first time since the case broke in the media, the butcher of Irun, with over thirty years experience in the industry, agrees to talk. It has done exclusively with DV. The logic is expressed caution today who will testify in Lausanne (Switzerland) before the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) at the request of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).
    "The Basque Government has all our documentation," says the entrepreneur, emphasizing that it has nothing to hide. Zabaleta is called to testify before the TAS to explain traceability 'identity card', dispensed meat these days. "In their day they came over here AMA inspectors. Minutes of the usual procedure followed by the meat to the consumer. All meat is traceable certificate, documentation with lot number, date of slaughter cattle's date of birth, number of operations (where the animal was fattened), number of health (birth, initiation, sacrifice) and number of slaughterhouse. "
    It is not the first time traveling to Lausanne - "I was for many years, something very different" grants. Will go alone, without lawyers, "I am calm. Of course this caught us by surprise and is a nuisance, but in time we have met with the authorities. And we had all the papers. Something very different is that, for whatever reason, for loss or wrong done, get caught in a quit ... but is not the case. We have only acted as sellers of a legally purchased item, with all its documentation. "
    "The meat is from another region"
    While his brother, Justi, the deli shipped to customers in the neighborhood, this newspaper Zabaleta gets in his small office on the first floor. In this place was where José Luis López Cerron allegedly purchased the piece of meat in July 2010. "They have focused on the case so that if he ate contaminated meat counter. Supposedly this is another client who had not ever come, he says he agreed to step in and bought here. We have nothing more to do with this matter. "
    Zabaleta said to have clearly identified the dealer - "It is easy, our steak is always the same supplier", located in Elgoibar, whose identity is protected prefer.
    But he adds that "it is impossible" to determine the exact provenance of the piece of discord. The only certainty is that "is out" of the Basque Country. "The meat is from another region, I can not say whether de Leon, Salamanca or even in Catalonia, but not here."
    During the interview, his eyes lost in the pile of papers that get stuck in your table. His hands, restless, set the pace of the conversation. "They have been many fellow reporters asking the same thing but from the outset we have referred to the Department of Health of the Government. In the end, the more you stir it worse. "
    Beyond the media noise, Zabaleta said that sales were not affected. "We have not noticed anything, for better or for worse. Our customers keep coming as they have done so far. "
    But soon hopes to close this chapter. "Here we cut no ice. Our name has been embroiled in a controversy of others. The butcher does not know whether or not contaminated meat. That's something we have to ensure the health checks

    He's also taken a lie detector test (scroll down, 3rd article) and he's 96% innocent !!


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Weirdest moment in that butcher's life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    AstraMonti wrote: »

    It's farcical at this stage.
    Also very unfair to Contador. He should have been convicted or cleared probably at least a year ago.
    Poor Andy on tetherhooks as well, no way to win your first TDF.......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 121 ✭✭pantani


    im a big fan of cycling and thought cycling had cleaned itself up from the 80's and 90's of everybody being accused of doping!i really hope contadors case is finished soon because imlooking forward to cadel whoopin his ass this summer.;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    Anyone who really wants to talk doping should post here
    http://forum.cyclingnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    The ruling was expected by January 31 but the CAS issued a comminqué in which it "intends to publish its decision in the arbitration procedure involving the International Cycling Union (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), Alberto Contador and the Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC) on Monday 6 February 2012.

    There's a mistake there, it's not 2012, it's....................2021 :eek::confused::pac:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,800 ✭✭✭C3PO


    I'd nearly forgotten about the whole thing ........ maybe that's the idea?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    I presume Contador is currently in transit and had the verdict come out today, then he would have had time to digest it (if you pardon the pun) and give his response in his way rather than having the press pack out at a training camp in the Med.

    This delay blows that plan sides anyway. Perhaps the authorities want him to feel the full glare of the media either way?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    One way or another it's going to be hugely controversial - I'd imagine the delay is more about giving the legal beagles more time to check and re-check everything.

    Is the delay a good sign or a bad sign? I'd say it's not a great sign because a finding against him would need to be a lot tighter than a finding for him, but I suppose we'll find out next week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 492 ✭✭seven stars


    RPL1 wrote: »
    I'd nearly forgotten about the whole thing ........ maybe that's the idea?

    Me too. I think he got busted and spent the last while serving a suspension, which explains his absence from last year's TdF. No? :pac:

    Slight digression, but did anyone watch that Louis Theroux documentary about Miami Mega Jail? The inmates choose to stay on remand in the jail for as long as possible, hoping that the passage of time will work in their favour when their case comes to trial. Similar, except that AC isn't in a hellhole of a prison, obviously.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,669 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Alberto Contador decision due in a few minutes...stay tuned.



    A/c http://www.facebook.com/VeloNation


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Don't DELAY with your updates...............RobFowl ;):pac:

    .........or (as has been posted on FB) a mis-steak on the time, it's 12 CET !


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Spanish sports paper Marca is saying he's gotten two years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    Two years from when? I mean, it's 18 months since he tested positive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Twitter & forums are saying 2 years, racing again on Aug 5th...............but nothing official yet !!


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,394 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    niceonetom wrote: »
    Two years from when? I mean, it's 18 months since he tested positive.

    Yep, will be back on August 6th, rumor has it.

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Schleck now has won a Tour de France, Scarponi a Giro.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,616 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    wow didnt expect that

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cas-sanction-contador-with-two-year-ban-in-clenbuterol-case
    Marca report a two year ban, and loss of 2010 Tour de France

    The Court of Arbitration for Sport has ruled that Alberto Contador should face a two year sanction for his positive test for clenbuterol at the 2010 Tour de France. After a long-running saga, CAS announced on Monday that it had upheld the UCI and WADA’s joint appeal against the Spanish Cycling Federation’s (RFEC) decision not to suspend Contador.

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    Schleck now has won a Tour de France, Scarponi a Giro.

    What a way to win your first Tour..

    Well.. I am glad they took this decision, the whole thing was nearly getting ridiculous.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Does he keep his Giro from last year ?

    ...........and A Schleck actually wins a GT :eek::confused: :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    the whole thing was ridiculous.
    FYP


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Does he keep his Giro from last year ?

    No


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,234 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    The most peculiar aspect of this case is how straightforward it was.

    Failed tests, strict liability, job done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    So...............what's the betting like now for this years TDF ??!! Froome ??!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    So...............what's the betting like now for this years TDF ??!! Froome ??!!
    A bit early to be talking TdF - No!?!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭morana


    I am surprised at that! I was betting on a 6 month ban but its right he has lost those victorys.

    Thanks be to god I am a vegetarian!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 125 ✭✭mikesp


    The first dot on the Marca article:
    El Tribunal reconoce que no está probado el dopaje

    Means:
    The Tribunal admits that the dopping is not a proven fact

    :confused::confused:

    If they couldn't prove that... why is he being banned?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,234 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mikesp wrote: »
    If they couldn't prove that... why is he being banned?

    I guess they couldn't prove intent to dope, but strict liability is supposed to make that irrelevant (or not, depending how loosely you interpret the rules).

    edit: I think if he'd been able to produce some Clenbuterol-tainted steak that might have been enough to get him off, but that's not really practical. The defence seems to have been the simple assertion that he didn't intentionally ingest the Clenbuterol, so that it must have been in the steak. That's not a very strong argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    Yep, will be back on August 6th, rumor has it.

    I bet Evans and Wiggins are secretly chuffed.
    Contador will more than likley win the Vuelta this year, but what about Valverde for a high tour placing in Berties absence??

    If this is official, what is absolutley crazy is that a 24 month ban starts from date pof test, when the athlete was allowed to race for much of that time. The administration of justice in pro sports is beyond farcical.
    I can understand why bans (prison sentences in real life) take into account time already served, but this is pure nuts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,916 ✭✭✭NickDrake


    Thsi is excellent news. Justice won in the end. A great day for cycling.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    He's being stripped of all his results for the time he continued to race after testing positive. So in effect, he wasn't racing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    He's being stripped of all his results for the time he continued to race after testing positive. So in effect, he wasn't racing.

    That maybe the de jure reality, but the de facto reality is that he has maintained his position as a top sports star in terms of earnings, appearance fees, advertising revenue, fitness, training, race miles in the legs, etc etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 809 ✭✭✭ciarano


    Steak anyone?:D

    We will all think twice now :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,234 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Spanish steak is not exactly famous for its quality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 148 ✭✭Aln_S


    NickDrake wrote: »
    Thsi is excellent news. Justice won in the end. A great day for cycling.

    Justice, Maybe, but a great day for Cycling it's not!


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    ROK ON wrote: »
    That maybe the de jure reality, but the de facto reality is that he has maintained his position as a top sports star in terms of earnings, appearance fees, advertising revenue, fitness, training, race miles in the legs, etc etc

    He'll more than likely have to refund his prize money. What advertisers choose to pay him and how much riding he has in his legs is beyond the remit of sporting authorities.


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