iMac trouble

The Black Oil

I was on my iMac (2008, running SL) a few minutes ago and this appeared out of nowhere. I don't know what you'd call it, distorted graphics? All I was doing was looking at boards and vodafone.ie and I had iTunes open. I was going to connect my iPod, turned away from the screen for a few seconds and this appeared. I couldn't quit anything and restarted by holding in the power button, but the screen still looks weird and out of sorts. If it's or something is fecked, I think I'm outside of Apple Care as it was due to run out, I'd have to see. I left it off for a few minutes, but I'm still getting the same lines across the screen and it won't even get to the login. This sucks, luckily I've my Macbook (2007) for college, but I kept a lot of stuff on the iMac. Have stuff on Time Machine backups.

Any ideas?

Greentree_uk

'fraud that looks like your gpu giving up

ZENER

Agreed !! Might be worth checking if there is a recall on your machine. AFAIK there were serious issues with nVidia chips in many laptops (Not just Apple) over the past 5 or 6 years. A quick Google suggests there were recalls from many leading brands at the time. Could be worth a call ?

Ken

yoyo

If its a Nvidia 8xxx series video card its a known problem, you should be able to get a replacement/refund if its within 3 years but look at this site for advice.

Nick

The Black Oil

Thanks both. I'll try calling Apple tomorrow. Think Apple Care ran out in September. I got a 512MB card for gaming through Bootcamp at the time of purchase. Is this distinct from the GPU and if it is the GPU, is it expensive to replace?

Thanks Nick. I only had the system profiler open the other day, but I can't remember anything now.

The Black Oil

Found an email from when I ordered it - June 2008. Might this be the culprit?

NVIDIA GEFORCE 8800 GS W/512MB

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Found an email from when I ordered it - June 2008. Might this be the culprit?

NVIDIA GEFORCE 8800 GS W/512MB

That is the culprit, plenty of evidence of those chips failing due to a design defect so get onto Apple about it. If its over a year of the warranty you may need to go after the retailer, and if you get no joy that route threaten small claims court, all the evidence out there will likely mean you'll be sorted before it reaches this stage though!

Good luck

Nick

The Black Oil

Thanks. Maybe I was unclear, it came with the machine because I ordered a BTO one at the time, no retailer to deal with other than Apple. Would they just replace like with like both in capacity and the same model or something that's not inherently faulty? Will I just have to be pushy if I don't get a sympathetic/on the ball Apple customer care rep? They'd likely point me in the direction of Mactivate or some such, yeah?

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Thanks. Maybe I was unclear, it came with the machine because I ordered a BTO one at the time, no retailer to deal with other than Apple. Would they just replace like with like both in capacity and the same model or something that's not inherently faulty? Will I just have to be pushy if I don't get a sympathetic/on the ball Apple customer care rep? They'd likely point me in the direction of Mactivate or some such, yeah?

I missed that previous post. On PCs replacing the GPU is quite straightforward, on Laptops and Macs this isn't the case (its likely the Imac uses a integrated video chip like laptops). The fact that your warranty is out is irrelevant, the machine isn't "fit for purpose" due to having a known defective GPU.
You may need to go the small claims court route to get Apple to assist you, your replacement may use the same GPU, or maybe a different one, I don't know for certain how Apple handle this situation, I have heard of people getting full refunds on faulty laptops though, Apple may just replace the model with a new one, but I really don't know...

Nick

The Black Oil

Thanks again. I had to ring Apple a few weeks ago regarding something else. At the time they said the support call wouldn't cost anything, because it was the first time I called since the warranty ran out and it was free as a once off or something, but there might be a charge tomorrow.

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Thanks again. I had to ring Apple a few weeks ago regarding something else. At the time they said the support call wouldn't cost anything, because it was the first time I called since the warranty ran out and it was free as a once off or something, but there might be a charge tomorrow.

This should be covered by warranty as the machine was sold defective (not by intention but still not fit for purpose). As I said you will prob need to threaten Apple with small claims court to get a resolution, theres plenty of info out there in relation to this defect, see here.
As Macs are not cheap machines they should last longer, you may throw away a €400 laptop with a failed GPU after that amount of time, but not something that cost in the thousands.
Fwiw I have heard of cases where people have to go as far as paying the few quid for small claims, when this happens the company will usually give in

Nick

The Black Oil

Meh, a fairly brief call. He went for the authorised repair option straight away, nearest one is CompuB in Swords, which isn't too bad. I raised the issue of a recall, but he said there was nothing on that and that if it was a case of a recall being out of repair (in the sense of being defective from day 1, to use your not fit for purpose SoGSS Act thing), that they 'very rarely' get such phone calls.

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Meh, a fairly brief call. He went for the authorised repair option straight away, nearest one is CompuB in Swords, which isn't too bad. I raised the issue of a recall, but he said there was nothing on that and that if it was a case of a recall being out of repair (in the sense of being defective from day 1, to use your not fit for purpose SoGSS Act thing), that they 'very rarely' get such phone calls.

Do not pay to get it repaired, if you don't want to go down the small claims route buy a new machine, all the repair shop will do is take a heat gun to the GPU and charge you for the privalege :rolleyes: .
I linked you to the Nvidia Defects forum which I reccomend you join and ask over there, if you persist with Apple and go small claims they'll likely give in. Also its bullsh!t Apple would have never heard of this problem, but then again thats the kind of company your dealing with. Best of luck sorting it but don't pay

Nick

The Black Oil

Yeah, I've posted over on that place. What sort of evidence would the small claims court need, does people talking about the fault on the 'net count? :pac:

Sad Professor

Did you buy the iMac from Apple?

Greentree_uk

I can assure you that if your machine is in for repair with an Apple repair shop, and Apple agree to repair, they certainly do no take a heat gun to your logic board. this is not a practice of any apple repair shop I know. it may well be widespread in PC shops. Boards are replaced with fully reconditioned and warrantied products.

The Black Oil

Sad Professor wrote: »

Did you buy the iMac from Apple?

Yep

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Yeah, I've posted over on that place. What sort of evidence would the small claims court need, does people talking about the fault on the 'net count? :pac:

The fact Nvidia came out and admitted the faulty chips is quite good proof . source. If it goes as far as the small claims court you may need to bring the machine into a computer technician (not a Apple store obviously) who will diagnose the fault, this can be done by checking display is corrupt on both internal and external display, and verifying the GPU the machine uses I would think.

Greentree_uk wrote: »

I can assure you that if your machine is in for repair with an Apple repair shop, and Apple agree to repair, they certainly do no take a heat gun to your logic board. this is not a practice of any apple repair shop I know. it may well be widespread in PC shops. Boards are replaced with fully reconditioned and warrantied products.

Suppose I shouldn't have put it that way, but it will likely be a reflowed refurb which will run in to the same issues later on down the road, actually OP if Apple offer you an Intel GMA chip over the Nvidia one I'd take it, no more gaming but at least your system should last!

Nick

The Black Oil

OK, I was in this place today, I had hardly explained a quarter of the story, just mentioned an out of warranty Mac with a (likely) graphics problem, I didn't even mention Nvidia and the guy started into an explanation that it/Nvidia was a 'well-documented' issue. He said they had a guy who looked after Macs and could take a look at it.

I also went to CompuB and to be fair, the guy was pretty sympathetic. He suggested trying to contact Apple again in the hope of getting through to an Irish person who might be more flexible. I'm also talked to the consumer agency today, though I can't remember a lot of what she said, apart from what we all learned in Junior Cert Business. I'd be willing to try the Small Claims Court, but should I write to Apple in Cork first to give them a chance to respond? The machine is important for my work, studies (distance learning) and some volunteering, but will that be swotted away as irrelevant?

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

OK, I was in this place today, I had hardly explained a quarter of the story, just mentioned an out of warranty Mac with a (likely) graphics problem, I didn't even mention Nvidia and the guy started into an explanation that it/Nvidia was a 'well-documented' issue. He said they had a guy who looked after Macs and could take a look at it.

I also went to CompuB and to be fair, the guy was pretty sympathetic. He suggested trying to contact Apple again in the hope of getting through to an Irish person who might be more flexible. I'm also talked to the consumer agency today, though I can't remember a lot of what she said, apart from what we all learned in Junior Cert Business. I'd be willing to try the Small Claims Court, but should I write to Apple in Cork first to give them a chance to respond? The machine is important for my work, studies (distance learning) and some volunteering, but will that be swotted away as irrelevant?

The bottom line is the machine is faulty, and the fault is due to a defective component being used in the manufacturing process.
Your first step is definately writing to Apple with a deadline by which to receive an adequate response/solution. If no response is given by this deadline start the small claims procedure. Its only €15 I think and you'll likely see a resolution before it even goes to court!
You may need to take the machine to a computer technician/specialist (probably not a shop which is a Apple authorized one as they'll be likely biased) to get a engineers report of the fault. This would be your evidence I think if the matter does get as far as the small claims court hearing,

Best of luck with it

Nick

The Black Oil

'adequate response/solution'

Well, that's the key, isn't it, but how bold can I be in the letter? If I'm not firm enough they'll say to bring it to an authorised place, but if I'm too full on (without being nasty) I mightn't get anywhere.

Thanks for talking me through this, btw.

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

'adequate response/solution'

Well, that's the key, isn't it, but how bold can I be in the letter? If I'm not firm enough they'll say to bring it to an authorised place, but if I'm too full on (without being nasty) I mightn't get anywhere.

Thanks for talking me through this, btw.

You'd probably be better asking in the Nvidia defects forum I mentioned, I havn't ever gone this route btw but just read about others expieriences (Had A 8800GTS GPU which I gave my bro last year, failed a few months back, just replaced it after it failed). But by firm I mean basicly saying you want the machine repaired free of charge or else you will bring them to court for refusing to replace faulty hardware, this isn't a case of wear and tear or user mis-use. I'm sure you paid in the thousands for that machine (I don't want to know how much! :eek::o) so it should be expected to last a reasonable amount of time, it clearly has not!
Let us know how you get on

Nick

The Black Oil

Well, I sent a letter (registered post) of a complaint, so we'll see if anything comes from it...

Cabaal

Black Oil wrote: »

Well, I sent a letter (registered post) of a complaint, so we'll see if anything comes from it...

I'd imagine something will come from it, all else fails there is always small claims and to be honest as long as you have evidence backing up the claim of a fault with your machine you'd win that hands down.

If you do go small claims odds are they'll settle before it goes the the small claims court,

Evidence is the important thing here...

The Black Oil

Are you speaking from experience, or gut feeling?

Well, according to An Post's tracking they've had the letter since the 24th, so that's not long. If I hear nothing next week it will be time for the SCC.

Cabaal

Black Oil wrote: »

Are you speaking from experience, or gut feeling?

Experience...though this experience is with county court claims in the UK.

It often doesn't matter how right the company may think it is because at the end of the day the cost of a defense is more often then not much higher then the cost of just settling (remember they have to pay somebody to represent them, you don;t).

As such mediation and settlement is a common outcome.

The reason why I'm saying evidence is very important is they need to see you have a case, this will likely push them to settle because if they try dispute the case they need to realise they could loose and it may cost them more.

It helps if you also can show evidence that you tried to resolve the issue in a very reasonable way before going small claims.

Again this experience is with county court cases in the UK but tbh they are pretty similar to small claims court cases (cost same, consumers only, claim the same amounts etc)

Cabaal

Any updates?

The Black Oil

No contact from Apple, disappointing in the sense of them not at least acknowledging contact.

I'm not sure what evidence to produce, apart from reports on websites, which may or may not be specific re the model of card I have. Thanks for your input.

Sad Professor

Did you quote the SoG Act and threaten to take them to the small claims court in the letter?

The Black Oil

Sad Professor wrote: »

Did you quote the SoG Act and threaten to take them to the small claims court in the letter?

Yep and I asked them to respond within 10 working days.

The Black Oil

OK, I was on the phone to Apple for 57 minutes this morning, passed from pillar to post, although some of them were helpful. Firstly, I wanted to confirm the legal name and apparently it's Apple Sales International (in the event of trying the Small Claims Court). Anyway, I wanted to check that they had received the letter of complaint in Cork, something which they were unable to do as it's not been attached to my case notes. The second fella was saying it might have been lost in the post or maybe that they were overwhelmed with letters...An Post tracking said it was delivered. Later on I tried to find out if it was between departments or what, no clue.

Next, I spoke to another guy. We did a hardware test, but the line problem remains. He said that it was a hardware fault, but also, not being able to boot into the OS was a 'separate issue'. After speaking to the technician, I finally got talking to someone in customer relations...I didn't have to say a great deal as she was fully aware of what I was trying to get across and obviously I'm not the first person who has tried to press them on the NVidia question. She flat out denied it was an NVidia problem, based on the fact that I had spoken to a technician and that it was obviously a 'display issue', that I should bring along to an authorised repair place who'll run tests to verify what's wrong.

Sigh, so do I go to an authorised repair place or somewhere independent and get a report, or straight to the Small Claims Court? Perhaps it would be useful to go to repair place to get some evidence. It seems apparent that I'm not going to get a response in writing.

Sad Professor

Tbh I wouldn't have even raised the NVidia issue with them. It just gives them something to focus on instead of the fact that you are demanding a repair under the SoG Act. It turns it into a technical issue instead of a customer service issue, and it allows them to deal with you as a manufacturer (who has no obligation to you now that warranty is up) rather than as a seller. I don't know who you were talking to, but in instances like this technical support is completely useless. You need to talk to Apple Store customer service or nobody.

Anyway, it's clearly a hardware fault, even they admit that. But the machine is over 3 years old, so they aren't likely to agree to a repair over the phone. So your best option is to just lodge an application with the small claims court. When filling out the application just emphasise the fact that it's hardware fault, Apple told you it was a hardware fault, you didn't do anything to cause it and you'd reasonably expect the computer to last longer than 3 years.

The Black Oil

Thanks SP. First I spoke to sales, then someone in customer care, then tech support, then customer relations...the last woman didn't acknowledge I had had Apple Care (even though it was out of date, so she said the machine was out of warranty for over 900 days...)

I didn't mention NVidia on the phone this morning, (just alluded to a graphics fault I believed was there since the manufacturing process), but have mentioned it my letter. The independent place said they'd likely reflow the card, which I suppose is refresh and it would likely fail again.

Who/what is Apple Store customer service, do you mean Apple.ie's own CS dept? Will the Small Claims Court accept my verbatim commentary that Apple said it's a hardware fault? SCC allows for up to €2,000, I don't know how much to put down, the original cost of the machine?

Seems that other people have had this/similar problems.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1085213

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=970649

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1076509

DubDJ

OP I had the same issue with a Dell Laptop a few weeks back. Went through a lot of hassle over 3 months but eventually got €400 compensation which i reluctantly accepted. Keep at them the law is on your side.

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Thanks SP. First I spoke to sales, then someone in customer care, then tech support, then customer relations...the last woman didn't acknowledge I had had Apple Care (even though it was out of date, so she said the machine was out of warranty for over 900 days...)

I didn't mention NVidia on the phone this morning, (just alluded to a graphics fault I believed was there since the manufacturing process), but have mentioned it my letter. The independent place said they'd likely reflow the card, which I suppose is refresh and it would likely fail again.

Who/what is Apple Store customer service, do you mean Apple.ie's own CS dept? Will the Small Claims Court accept my verbatim commentary that Apple said it's a hardware fault? SCC allows for up to €2,000, I don't know how much to put down, the original cost of the machine?

Seems that other people have had this/similar problems.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1085213

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=970649

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1076509

Do not accept a re-flow, as yes it will fail again after. I would put down the original cost of the machine, after small claims proceedings begin I imagine Apple will change their tune, good luck

Nick

The Black Oil

OK, I've received confirmation, admittedly just there now via text message, that a diagnostic from an independent engineer, 'points to an NVidia GPU failure, requires mainboard reflow to GPU (€99)'.

They're awaiting my instructions, so what next? I'll try go get this in writing anyway, then try Apple again or straight to the SCC?

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

OK, I've received confirmation, admittedly just there now via text message, that a diagnostic from an independent engineer, 'points to an NVidia GPU failure, requires mainboard reflow to GPU (€99)'.

They're awaiting my instructions, so what next? I'll try go get this in writing anyway, then try Apple again or straight to the SCC?

Small Claims, sure a reflow could fail in a week, month, year, 2 years, you have a ticking time bomb there, and yes do not pay for it. You've given Apple ample oppertunity to help you, they havn't so start small claims proceedings would be my advice. Yes if you can get the independent engineers report in writing (there may be a small charge) I would, as it gives evidence that its a known fault should Apple persue the claim, likely they'll chicken out and settle before hand though, but you never know

Nick

The Black Oil

The independent place refused to give me a print out of what they had diagnosed unless it was for insurance reasons and I'd need something from the insurance company to get it. I didn't have it on the house insurance, mea culpa in that regard. Anyway, verbally they said the NVidia thing is acting up, but also that the HD is reading as having bad sectors and was wondering if I had dropped it. Definite no is the answer to that and it wasn't bouncing around in the boot of the car when I brought it to the place. I was looking after it in the main body of the car.

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

The independent place refused to give me a print out of what they had diagnosed unless it was for insurance reasons and I'd need something from the insurance company to get it. I didn't have it on the house insurance, mea culpa in that regard. Anyway, verbally they said the NVidia thing is acting up, but also that the HD is reading as having bad sectors and was wondering if I had dropped it. Definite no is the answer to that and it wasn't bouncing around in the boot of the car when I brought it to the place. I was looking after it in the main body of the car.

If it was any other type of machine I'd say the hard drive issue is minor as there easy to replace, but on an iMac they are very very difficult to replace and while a hard dsik with bad sectors may work without problems it is allot more likely to fail soon enough. Try to find a place ie phone around who will give you a diagnosis report, most will charge some fee as obviously if neccesary they may need to confirm their findings in court, I wouldn't worry about the hard disk issue though, bad sectors arn't causing this problem, I would go small claims now, its only €15 to lodge a complaint

Nick

The Black Oil

Tbh, it's in an Apple authorised repair place now, after little success elsewhere. So, the Apple place will probably tell me what's wrong and quote what it would cost to repair. Can you get something repaired and go through the SCC after the fact, pointing out how much it cost given the NVidia issue? I presume not.

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Tbh, it's in an Apple authorised repair place now, after little success elsewhere. So, the Apple place will probably tell me what's wrong and quote what it would cost to repair. Can you get something repaired and go through the SCC after the fact, pointing out how much it cost given the NVidia issue? I presume not.

No, I would not send it to Apple as obviously it will end up costing you and you won't guarantee you'll get this refunded from small claims, I'm actually suprised how badly apple a company meant to be known for customer support are handling this so poorly.
Its up to Apple to foot the bill and then Nvidia to provide them the new hardware (Although its likely you'll receive a refurbished mobo from Apple), and also as your machine is fairly old the longer you leave it the less likely of small claims being of much use to you (this is likely the tactic Apple are playing here). As the machine is 08 its a fair few years old, however as you payed thousands for it it should be expected to last longer than 3 years and also the failure is due to a known problem

Nick

The Black Oil

Have probably shot myself in the foot in that regard as it's with them now. I can't keep asking a family member to help me ferry it around. I am a bit disappointed at the customer service aspect as well. I've found them helpful enough with smaller issues in the past, but they didn't write or phone after I sent the registered letter to Cork. The machine was just under €1,600, so a fair whack alright.

We keep returning to the issue of the known problem, but getting the evidence for that isn't easy. Er, I don't know what else to try re getting an evaluation of it, Currys or PC World, but I know some people feel they're a bit spawn of satan-ish.

yoyo

Black Oil wrote: »

Have probably shot myself in the foot in that regard as it's with them now. I can't keep asking a family member to help me ferry it around. I am a bit disappointed at the customer service aspect as well. I've found them helpful enough with smaller issues in the past, but they didn't write or phone after I sent the registered letter to Cork. The machine was just under €1,600, so a fair whack alright.

We keep returning to the issue of the known problem, but getting the evidence for that isn't easy. Er, I don't know what else to try re getting an evaluation of it, Currys or PC World, but I know some people feel they're a bit spawn of satan-ish.

Phone around shops and see if they'll do it for you, in the mean time I'd put in a small claims claim, Apple will probably chicken out by this stage anyways.
In court it would be appropriate that a machine purchased for €1600 should be expected to last a reasonable amount of time, I would say 5 years would be what would be considered reasonable for such a machine.
Get the machine back from Apple (yes you'll likely have to pay courier fees) and start small claims proceedings. Make sure you still have a record of all unsatisfactory communications with Apple i.e: emails, times you phones, people you spoke to etc.

Nick

The Black Oil

If things don't go your way can you incur legal costs, though? I spoke to the SCC again, though I've not put in a claim, and I was told that if it went to court it would be in Cork as that's where the respondent's address is. This seems to be the opposite of what I was told before.

Also, the SCC were (again) on about having the exact legal name correct, otherwise you'll fall at the first hurdle.

Cabaal

Black Oil wrote: »

If things don't go your way can you incur legal costs, though?

Nope, not if its small claims,. The most you have to loose is your small claims fee.

I spoke to the SCC again, though I've not put in a claim, and I was told that if it went to court it would be in Cork as that's where the respondent's address is. This seems to be the opposite of what I was told before.

This doesn't sound right at all, as far as I was aware it should be local to you not them (the company).

Also, the SCC were (again) on about having the exact legal name correct, otherwise you'll fall at the first hurdle.

this is 100% correct, you must get the correct company name.

Greentree_uk

Did you get your quote to fix yet?

The Black Oil

Not yet, no.

Greentree_uk

long time in centre. where did you drop it into? approximate price would be €360 inc vat.

The Black Oil

How do you figure that price? It's there since the morning of the 15th, so not long.

yoyo

Greentree_uk wrote: »

long time in centre. where did you drop it into? approximate price would be €360 inc vat.

Why pay a huge amount of money when the "repair" will likely fail anyways, those 8x00 video cards are ticking time bombs, all will fail the same way at some stage

Nick

Greentree_uk

Sorry thought it was 12th u dropped it in