Irish XV of HC Round 2

totallegend

OK, I have to preface this by saying I did not see the Connacht game...

15. Kearney; solid under the high ball, not really tested in defence by Glasgow but looked sharp going forward. Deserved his try (even though Sexton and Nacewa did all the work).
14. Howlett; continues to provide the most potent threat in the Munster backs, two excellent performances back to back.
13. O'Malley; Cave gets an honourable mention and if Chambers had been on for 80 minutes, he'd have been a shoo-in, but O'Malley put his hand up for the Leinster 13 jersey in a big way.
12. Mafi; a tough one to call, no stand out performers but Mafi looked dangerous with ball in hand, still looks like he could give away a penalty at any time though...
11. Fitzgerald; excellent for the second week in a row, a really encouraging return to form. His kick to touch in the second half was a thing of beauty.
10. O'Gara; Poor for 70 minutes but the block-down for the Chambers try and the drop-goal swung the game.
9. Marshall; gets a lot of stick on boards but he was zippy and decisive and has a lovely pass. Honourable mention for Reddan.
1. AN Other; I really can't pick a standout LH from VDM, Court and du Preez, none covered themselves in glory.
2. Best; still maintaining his world cup form.
3. Fitzpatrick; the loss of Afoa was not felt as badly as most thought it would be and Fitzpatrick deserves some credit for that after a ropey start.
4. POC; badly at fault for Castres try but otherwise superb, controlled aggression in everything he did. Honourable mention for Toner.
5. Tuohy; if he can maintain his form, has to come into contention for the 6N. (Honourable mention for Caldwell, a great game for Bath)
6. O'Mahony; another stormer
7. Ronan; Another who gets a lot of stick here, I know I give him a fair amount, but he did well yesterday. Henry and O'Brien were anonymous enough.
8. Heaslip; not quite back to his best but was very effective in defence and showed great gas to prevent a certain Glasgow try.

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

OK, I have to preface this by saying I did not see the Connacht game...

15. Kearney; solid under the high ball, not really tested in defence by Glasgow but looked sharp going forward. Deserved his try (even though Sexton and Nacewa did all the work).
14. Howlett; continues to provide the most potent threat in the Munster backs, two excellent performances back to back.
13. O'Malley; Cave gets an honourable mention and if Chambers had been on for 80 minutes, he'd have been a shoo-in, but O'Malley put his hand up for the Leinster 13 jersey in a big way.
12. Mafi; a tough one to call, no stand out performers but Mafi looked dangerous with ball in hand, still looks like he could give away a penalty at any time though...
11. Fitzgerald; excellent for the second week in a row, a really encouraging return to form. His kick to touch in the second half was a thing of beauty.
10. O'Gara; Poor for 70 minutes but the block-down for the Chambers try and the drop-goal swung the game.
9. Marshall; gets a lot of stick on boards but he was zippy and decisive and has a lovely pass. Honourable mention for Reddan.
1. AN Other; I really can't pick a standout LH from VDM, Court and du Preez, none covered themselves in glory.
2. Best; still maintaining his world cup form.
3. Fitzpatrick; the loss of Afoa was not felt as badly as most thought it would be and Fitzpatrick deserves some credit for that after a ropey start.
4. POC; badly at fault for Castres try but otherwise superb, controlled aggression in everything he did. Honourable mention for Toner.
5. Tuohy; if he can maintain his form, has to come into contention for the 6N. (Honourable mention for Caldwell, a great game for Bath)
6. O'Mahony; another stormer
7. Ronan; Another who gets a lot of stick here, I know I give him a fair amount, but he did well yesterday. Henry and O'Brien were anonymous enough.
8. Heaslip; not quite back to his best but was very effective in defence and showed great gas to prevent a certain Glasgow try.

I'd agree with most of that.

Didn't think Mafi was good at all, I'd have given it to D'Arcy or maybe even McSharry.

And Du Preez impressed me more than usual, but yeah there was no real standout player.

EDIT: Oh you didn't see the Connacht game- they had a couple of good players on the night, but only McSharry doesn't have another obvious candidate ahead of him.

budhabob

totallegend wrote: »

OK, I have to preface this by saying I did not see the Connacht game...

15. Kearney; solid under the high ball, not really tested in defence by Glasgow but looked sharp going forward. Deserved his try (even though Sexton and Nacewa did all the work).
14. Howlett; continues to provide the most potent threat in the Munster backs, two excellent performances back to back.
13. O'Malley; Cave gets an honourable mention and if Chambers had been on for 80 minutes, he'd have been a shoo-in, but O'Malley put his hand up for the Leinster 13 jersey in a big way.
12. Mafi; a tough one to call, no stand out performers but Mafi looked dangerous with ball in hand, still looks like he could give away a penalty at any time though...
11. Fitzgerald; excellent for the second week in a row, a really encouraging return to form. His kick to touch in the second half was a thing of beauty.
10. O'Gara; Poor for 70 minutes but the block-down for the Chambers try and the drop-goal swung the game.
9. Marshall; gets a lot of stick on boards but he was zippy and decisive and has a lovely pass. Honourable mention for Reddan.
1. AN Other; I really can't pick a standout LH from VDM, Court and du Preez, none covered themselves in glory.
2. Best; still maintaining his world cup form.
3. Fitzpatrick; the loss of Afoa was not felt as badly as most thought it would be and Fitzpatrick deserves some credit for that after a ropey start.
4. POC; badly at fault for Castres try but otherwise superb, controlled aggression in everything he did. Honourable mention for Toner.
5. Tuohy; if he can maintain his form, has to come into contention for the 6N. (Honourable mention for Caldwell, a great game for Bath)
6. O'Mahony; another stormer
7. Ronan; Another who gets a lot of stick here, I know I give him a fair amount, but he did well yesterday. Henry and O'Brien were anonymous enough.
8. Heaslip; not quite back to his best but was very effective in defence and showed great gas to prevent a certain Glasgow try.

I only watched the Munster game so I can only really comment on that.
I thought Du Preez had one of his better games in a munster shirt,it was one of the first times I can actually remember him carrying effectively and often. Also seemed to hold his own in his primary job.
Ronin in all fairness to himself had a great game, carried like a man bigger than he is, put in some great tackles aswell. In general I'm not a fan of his but credit where credit is due.

duckysauce

Du Preez was very good made some great breaks and made yards each time he got the ball.

EKClarke

Best has been pretty phenomenal since the World Cup in fairness. Hopefully he keeps the form for the 6 Nations.

budhabob

And I didn't mention them but howlet and POM were excellent. Dougie is rowing back the years. So I totally agree with you there.

irishbucsfan

My Irish XV of Irish player

15. Kearney - He was brilliant, two great games in a row from him, hopefully there's more to come.
14. Trimble - I didn't see Bowe, but Trimble was the best of the Irish 14s I saw (up against Brian Tuohy and Tommy Seymour to be fair)
13. Griffin - O'Malley scored two tries but at times disappeared (one of them was an absolutely superb line though). Griffin was playing against Fritz and Jauzion and still managed to consistently look dangerous. Cave was excellent as well, I'd actually have him above EOM as well.
12. McSharry - Spence looked limited, D'Arcy was brighter than recently, Downey was his usual boshy self. McSharry though, like Griffin, was playing against top opposition and still managed to impress in various areas. He's quick and he is a great distributor.
11. Luke Fitzgerald - One of the best Irish players on display this weekend. Just fantastic.
10. Jonny Sexton - O'Gara was the difference in his game in the final 10 minutes, but he wasn't great for the entire game up to that. Sexton was great from the very first minute, starting with his perfect cross field kick to Nacewa, and remained great until he was subbed off.
9. Marshall - He did make a few errors in judgement again, but he was the best Irish 9 on display this weekend I thought. Reddan was good as well.

8 - Heaslip - Easy choice really. Great performance from him
7 - O'Brien - He wasn't as obvious as usual, but he was better than Ronan on the ground. Ronan is smart enough to get himself involved a lot but does not have the physicality to take advantage of the positions that his brain puts his body in. O'Brien carried well a few times and was very physical in defense when Glasgow had their purple patch. I would pick Ferris/O'Mahony here if I could bend the rules a bit.
6. - O'Mahony - He was excellent again. Leamy isn't going to get back into that team if he keeps playing this was at 6. Ferris was good as well and deserves a mention for sure. O'Mahony's freshness is probably what makes me give him the edge.
5 - Tuohy - Easy choice. He is back to the form that had him in the Ireland squad, except this time he really has to start.
4 - Toner - POC wasn't as good as last week, whereas Toner only managed 70 minutes on the field but outshone Kellock and Gray, which is no mean feat. Another Ireland squad candidate if he kicks on from here.
3 - Ross - I thought Fitzpatrick was manhandled a bit to be honest. Ross was solid as usual, although the opposition was iffy (who IS Ryan Grant?)
2 - Best - As solid as usual. Great work again against a tough pack.
1 - Court - His scrummaging looked dodgy, but considering the lack of another candidate I thought he deserves a mention considering his work around the park.

Hagz

1. Wian du Preez
2. Rory Best
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Dan Tuohy
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Peter O'Mahony
7. Stephen Ferris
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Paul Marshall
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. Luke Fitzgerald
12. Dave McSharry
13. Eoin O'Malley
14. Andrew Trimble
15. Rob Kearney

freyners

kearney (duffy had another fantastic game for connacht and gets an honourable mention)
howlett
EOM (griffin/cave honourable mentions)
mcsharry
fitz
sexton
marshall
heaslip
ronan
POM
touhy
toner
ross
best
court



on another note how did people feel cronin did today, only saw the first half of the leinster game and thought he played very well then

Dave Joyce

but only McSharry doesn't have another obvious candidate ahead of him.

Well, I thought Macca had as good a game as any other forward this weekend. He might have been playing in the backrow for this game but he normally plays second row and dominated in the line outs as well as taking on Toulouse at every opportunity he got. And Eoin Griffen also had a very good game

Fireball07

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Well, I thought Macca had as good a game as any other forward this weekend. He might have been playing in the backrow for this game but he normally plays second row and dominated in the line outs as well as taking on Toulouse at every opportunity he got. And Eoin Griffen also had a very good game

Yeah I agree but if we're picking them for the positions were in- O'Mahoney was Munster's best player and a bit better than McCarthy imo. If McCarthy had been in the 2nd row, he'd have been in.

johnnysmack

Why are some people putting POC in the number 4 jersey here? He played at 5 at weekend, always has, always will.

irishbucsfan

johnnysmack wrote: »

Why are some people putting POC in the number 4 jersey here? He played at 5 at weekend, always has, always will.

Because it's the one position where it really makes no difference at all. :pac:

Amazotheamazing

Ronan has really surpassed all expectations in his HEC games to date. It's a pity POM is still a little light to play 8, because a Leamy, Ronan, POM backrow would be worth a look at for Munster. I doubt any will feature prominently in the six nations though.

Murray's pass for Howlett's try and the wrap around for POM's try would get him into the team for me, though it's good to see Marshall coming through too.

Fireball07

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ronan has really surpassed all expectations in his HEC games to date. It's a pity POM is still a little light to play 8, because a Leamy, Ronan, POM backrow would be worth a look at for Munster. I doubt any will feature prominently in the six nations though.

Murray's pass for Howlett's try and the wrap around for POM's try would get him into the team for me, though it's good to see Marshall coming through too.

I'd prefer POM at 7, Leamy at 6 and Coughlan at 8 tbh. Ronan has done well, fair play to him, but his best isn't as good as any of the 3 other's bests. Coughlan hasn't hit his form of last season yet but I think he will soon. He's a very talented player too.

castie

Given that Leinster were up against Glasgow and Conn against Toulouse Duffy is my 15 choice. He played well against better opposition.

molloyjh

I didn't see the Ulster game so can't include any of those but here's my selection.

15. Duffy - tight call as Kearney was very good yesterday, but Duffy stood out for me on Saturday. Was very hungry for work and did everything asked of him and more.
14. Nacewa
13. O'Malley
12. McSharry
11. Fitzgerald
10. Sexton
9. Reddan - although it seems Marshall played well given the posts here
8. Heaslip
7. Ronan
6. POM
5. Toner
4. POC - I know he's a 5 but it really doesn't matter.
3. Ross
2. Cronin
1. As with the OP I can't really pick one.

totallegend wrote: »

10. O'Gara; Poor for 70 minutes but the block-down for the Chambers try and the drop-goal swung the game.

I don't get this. If you reckon ROG played poorly for 70 mins then I don't see the logic of saying he was the best 10 over the weekend. Surely Johnny played well all game, put in that lovely cross field kick for Kearneys try, ran the back line well and made some good tackles?

NOTE: This isn't one of those ROG-Sexton pissing contests, I just don't understand the logic of "poor for most of the game but still best of the weekend".

Fireball07

The thing is he wasn't actually poor for 70 mins. In fact, he was fairly good throughout. Not saying he was the best no. 10 of the weekend or anything but saying he was poor for 70 minutes just isn't true.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

The thing is he wasn't actually poor for 70 mins. In fact, he was fairly good throughout. Not saying he was the best no. 10 of the weekend or anything but saying he was poor for 70 minutes just isn't true.

Regardless of hIs performance - I didn't think he was poor either - the point is more re the OPs logic, who thought ROG was poor for the most part yet still rated him the best 10 of the weekend.

.ak

15. Kearney
14. Howlett
13. Chambers COLOR="Gray"]EOM was great, scored his tries well, but Chambers injected life into a beaten team[/COLOR
12. Darcy COLOR="gray"]Shock horror! Well, he set up EOM's second try like a boss and bashed his way through Glasgow all day[/COLOR
11. Fitzy/Trimble COLOR="gray"]Trimble was massive, but Fitzy showed his class all over[/COLOR
10. Sexton
09. Marshall COLOR="gray"]Few dodgy kicks and should've acted as a better sweeper for Leicester's try, but very hungry and ran the pack well, often picking out Trimble who was on form[/COLOR
08. Heaslip COLOR="gray"]For the naysayers; the king is dead, long live the king[/COLOR
07. SOB COLOR="gray"]Looked knackered but at times single handled turned ball over by old fashioned rucking[/COLOR
06. POM COLOR="gray"]Ferris is always a contestant but Leicester knew how to deal with him[/COLOR
05. POC
04. Toner COLOR="gray"]Feverish performance slightly tainted with a card, but he was all over the park and put in a huge performance. Kept Gray and Kellock quiet[/COLOR
03. Ross
02. Best COLOR="gray"]Cronin gets a mention, throwing was good but Best was just an animal all over the park[/COLOR
01. Court


Sorry, no Connacht players, because I didn't get to watch the game!

totallegend

molloyjh wrote: »

Regardless of hIs performance - I didn't think he was poor either - the point is more re the OPs logic, who thought ROG was poor for the most part yet still rated him the best 10 of the weekend.

It was more in the context of having to choose from O'Gara, Sexton or Humphreys; Humphreys did the opposite of ROG, was decent for most of the game but the fact that Ulster came away with nothing was almost entirely down to him. Sexton played the best of all three but against a much weaker team and could you really say his contribution was decisive in deciding the outcome?

O'Gara was poor for the most part and I'm probably his most consistent critic for the last 11 years (I think it's bizarre that we all bemoan the lack of penetration and flair in the Munster backline but no-one has thought to point the finger at the outhalf) but look, he pulled it out of the fire when it mattered.

shuffol

Lads was Toner really that impressive, cant help but feel that because people are desperate for him to succeed theres a lot of goodwiill towards him and as such he isnt judged as critically as other players. He didnt do a lot to grab my attention yesterday barring showing some good hands a few times, the stats would seem to back my view up, he carried the ball 3 times for 2 metres, made 4 tackles but missed 3, gave away 2 penalties and got sin binned. I know second rows are all about unseen work and the maul was good yesterday but not sure the plaudits he's receiving are fully justified, If DOC put in a similiar performance I'm sure he'd be criticised. Hate to be a miserable George Hook sort but I think theres a few posters doing a decent impression of Frankie Sheehan;)

wixfjord

shuffol wrote: »

Lads was Toner really that impressive, cant help but feel that because people are desperate for him to succeed theres a lot of goodwiill towards him and as such he isnt judged as critically as other players. He didnt do a lot to grab my attention yesterday barring showing some good hands a few times, the stats would seem to back my view up, he carried the ball 3 times for 2 metres, made 4 tackles but missed 3, gave away 2 penalties and got sin binned. I know second rows are all about unseen work and the maul was good yesterday but not sure the plaudits he's receiving are fully justified, If DOC put in a similiar performance I'm sure he'd be criticised. Hate to be a miserable George Hook sort but I think theres a few posters doing a decent impression of Frankie Sheehan;)

Nah he was very good yesterday.
Leinster player of the month too.
Where did the stats come from?
You can also add a blockdown and a steal to that.

If anything, he's judged more critically than other players. He's still a baby in second row terms, and has put in some huge performances for Leinster in massive games already. If he keeps going like this he'll replace Leo.

shuffol

wixfjord wrote: »

Nah he was very good yesterday.
Leinster player of the month too.
Where did the stats come from?
You can also add a blockdown and a steal to that.

If anything, he's judged more critically than other players. He's still a baby in second row terms, and has put in some huge performances for Leinster in massive games already. If he keeps going like this he'll replace Leo.

Got the stats off ESPN.

Still not convinced but hope he proves me wrong.

BTW was that steal your referring to when the ball squirted out the side of a ruck and he picked it up?

irishbucsfan

shuffol wrote: »

Got the stats off ESPN.

Still not convinced but hope he proves me wrong.

BTW was that steal your referring to when the ball squirted out the side of a ruck and he picked it up?

If he hasn't proved you wrong after winning player of the month and that performance at the weekend, after his cameo at the end of the Montpellier game, then I don't really see what he can do. What are you expecting him to do? He could have carried the ball 0 times at the weekend and still would have been one of the Leinster's best forwards.

wixfjord

shuffol wrote: »

Got the stats off ESPN.

Still not convinced but hope he proves me wrong.

BTW was that steal your referring to when the ball squirted out the side of a ruck and he picked it up?

It is yeah.

The ESPN stats are notorious for telling lies.

Toner is in the form of his life at the moment I think, and again the hypothesis that he plays really well when he gets games is coming through.
His performances against Wasps in 09, Munster in Thomond last year and Sarries last year were great, and he played most of 2009 too iirc, so it's great to see him step up again. Will be very important for us this year.

Also, you can add two turnovers and 4 lineouts won to that too, while Gray won only two.
I think we all know by now that stats tell half the story, especially those stats.

GerM

shuffol wrote: »

Got the stats off ESPN.

Still not convinced but hope he proves me wrong.

BTW was that steal your referring to when the ball squirted out the side of a ruck and he picked it up?

ESPN are a bit dubious. They've changed in the past 2 hours as Heaslip had 12 tackles which has now disappeared. The stats for most players have changed. Toner had a decent game. He didn't set the world on fire but he was solid in the line out, put pressure on their ball, made one or two important tackles and got around the pitch. The block down showed his hunger. He wasn't the best lock of the weekend and there perhaps is an element of people willing him to succeed but I would definitely think he played well. I spotted at least one missed tackle so he didn't have the perfect game but it was the type of tackle he shouldn't be making i.e. chasing up to a back in space who zipped past him. He's doing well overall but needs to keep going and turn his line out quality into line out dominance.

shuffol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If he hasn't proved you wrong after winning player of the month and that performance at the weekend, after his cameo at the end of the Montpellier game, then I don't really see what he can do. What are you expecting him to do? He could have carried the ball 0 times at the weekend and still would have been one of the Leinster's best forwards.

Lot of calls for Toner to be included in Irelands 6N squad so I'm judging him on the basis of whether I think he's good enough for international rugby at this stage and I just dont see it. Like I said he showed some good hands as he did against Montpellier but he missed almost half his tackles(take your point about ESPN stats wjxford but I'd trust the one on missed tackles). The tone of your post would assume I've a vendetta against the guy or something but I'm simply trying to judge him in the same way I'd judge somebody like DOC as it seems they're competing for Ireland squad places. If DOC missed 3 tackles out of 7 and got sin binned I dont think he'd be receiving such high praise.

My other point is that people are judging him sympathetically because of the desire to see him succeed, I think my view is vindicated by Wjxford accrediting him with a steal when all he did was bend down(a considerable effort for Devin I know) to pick up a ball. No offence Wjxford.

BTW right now I think the top 4 locks in the country are POC, Tuohy, McCarthy and Ryan/DOC. Think Toner has a bit to go yet to be in the same bracket.

smurphy29

Not sure there's a favourable bias towards Big Dev, if anything I'd have thought it was the opposite. With his gangly appearance and ineffectual displays last season, I felt he'd become a bif of a punch bag (I've criticised him a lot myself).

But he's growing on me (hurr hurr), and credit is due. He was up against a much-heralded Lion-in-waiting who looks like reneissance royalty yesterday and came out on top - he's definitely on the up, but has a ways to go yet to be international class.

SARZY

irishbucsfan wrote: »

My Irish XV of Irish player

15. Kearney - He was brilliant, two great games in a row from him, hopefully there's more to come.
14. Trimble - I didn't see Bowe, but Trimble was the best of the Irish 14s I saw (up against Brian Tuohy and Tommy Seymour to be fair)
13. Griffin - O'Malley scored two tries but at times disappeared (one of them was an absolutely superb line though). Griffin was playing against Fritz and Jauzion and still managed to consistently look dangerous. Cave was excellent as well, I'd actually have him above EOM as well.
12. McSharry - Spence looked limited, D'Arcy was brighter than recently, Downey was his usual boshy self. McSharry though, like Griffin, was playing against top opposition and still managed to impress in various areas. He's quick and he is a great distributor.
11. Luke Fitzgerald - One of the best Irish players on display this weekend. Just fantastic.
10. Jonny Sexton - O'Gara was the difference in his game in the final 10 minutes, but he wasn't great for the entire game up to that. Sexton was great from the very first minute, starting with his perfect cross field kick to Nacewa, and remained great until he was subbed off.
9. Marshall - He did make a few errors in judgement again, but he was the best Irish 9 on display this weekend I thought. Reddan was good as well.

8 - Heaslip - Easy choice really. Great performance from him
7 - O'Brien - He wasn't as obvious as usual, but he was better than Ronan on the ground. Ronan is smart enough to get himself involved a lot but does not have the physicality to take advantage of the positions that his brain puts his body in. O'Brien carried well a few times and was very physical in defense when Glasgow had their purple patch. I would pick Ferris/O'Mahony here if I could bend the rules a bit.
6. - O'Mahony - He was excellent again. Leamy isn't going to get back into that team if he keeps playing this was at 6. Ferris was good as well and deserves a mention for sure. O'Mahony's freshness is probably what makes me give him the edge.
5 - Tuohy - Easy choice. He is back to the form that had him in the Ireland squad, except this time he really has to start.
4 - Toner - POC wasn't as good as last week, whereas Toner only managed 70 minutes on the field but outshone Kellock and Gray, which is no mean feat. Another Ireland squad candidate if he kicks on from here.
3 - Ross - I thought Fitzpatrick was manhandled a bit to be honest. Ross was solid as usual, although the opposition was iffy (who IS Ryan Grant?)
2 - Best - As solid as usual. Great work again against a tough pack.
1 - Court - His scrummaging looked dodgy, but considering the lack of another candidate I thought he deserves a mention considering his work around the park.

YOU ARE HAVING A LAUGH. VERY FUNNY.

wixfjord

shuffol wrote: »

Lot of calls for Toner to be included in Irelands 6N squad so I'm judging him on the basis of whether I think he's good enough for international rugby at this stage and I just dont see it. Like I said he showed some good hands as he did against Montpellier but he missed almost half his tackles(take your point about ESPN stats wjxford but I'd trust the one on missed tackles). The tone of your post would assume I've a vendetta against the guy or something but I'm simply trying to judge him in the same way I'd judge somebody like DOC as it seems they're competing for Ireland squad places. If DOC missed 3 tackles out of 7 and got sin binned I dont think he'd be receiving such high praise.

My other point is that people are judging him sympathetically because of the desire to see him succeed, I think my view is vindicated by Wjxford accrediting him with a steal when all he did was bend down(a considerable effort for Devin I know) to pick up a ball. No offence Wjxford.

BTW right now I think the top 4 locks in the country are POC, Tuohy, McCarthy and Ryan/DOC. Think Toner has a bit to go yet to be in the same bracket.

But my point there was you can't criticise the stats on one point, and then utilise them in another. He's down for two turnovers, which could have been David Pocock alike or simply picking up a loose ball after good work by SOB.
He's also down three missed tackles which could have been Gray rampaging at him from 20 yards or Cussiter knocking him on his arse from a standing start!


As the saying goes, lies, damed lies and statistics, and anyone who saw the game yesterday will know how well he played, and what he brings to the game. Him and Leo were well on top of a strong Glasgow pairing, and Toner's actually got very good hands.

There's certainly no sympathy from me, and if anything, it's the other way around as this will attest to.

GavMan

Thought Touhy had a bloody smashing game. Really showing the form he showed in NZ back in 2010. So abrasive and aggressive. Really revved my engine

Would like to see him partner POC in the 6N if he can maintain this form.

A street ahead DOC, Ryan and Cullen (and I say this as a Leinster Fan)

peterako

I remember seeing Toner in an U20's (or was it U21s) six nations match.

He was about 5 metres from the try line heading for a score...was tackled and while heading for the floor completed a sublime offload.

Sweet hands.

wixfjord

GavMan wrote: »

Thought Touhy had a bloody smashing game. Really showing the form he showed in NZ back in 2010. So abrasive and aggressive. Really revved my engine

Would like to see him partner POC in the 6N if he can maintain this form.

A street ahead DOC, Ryan and Cullen (and I say this as a Leinster Fan)

Ooh err matron!

I agree though, he's the potential to be a magnificent player.

porterbelly

Didn't see much of the other provinces over the weekend. My inclusions for Connacht would be McSharry and Duffy.

McSharry was up against 6'4 18 stone 70 odd cap Jauzion, McSharry's 3rd senior cap, 21 years of age, 4 stone lighter and he acquitted himself superbly. Got over the gainline, made his tackles, and had a go when it was on. This guy can really play.

Duffy was once again superb at 15. Any young lad wanting to be a full back, watch this guy play. He mightn't have the dancing feet of Kearney, but he's exceptional under the high ball, his kicking game is the best of any of the Irish full backs and he knows when to counter attack.

Annabella1

Agree that Tuohy was good..but he is a 4 jumper just like POC.Not sure if he is a 2 option for 6N

matthew8

Didn't get to see the Connacht game, so I'll assume they weren't up to much, I also felt there were some outstanding cameos so I'll include them):
1. Court (best of a bad bunch)
2. Best (Woop de doo Cronin threw the ball straight, but he still doesn't do enough at rucks)
3. Botha
4. Tuohy (this guy is a magnificent player, really looking forward to seeing him in green)
5. Toner (not sure he's international quality, but he looked it against 2 very good locks)
6. O'Brien (He gets nowhere but every time he runs he sucks in 3 just to tackle him)
7. POM (I put him at 7 and SOB at 6 because that's where they'd fit in on the Irish team)
8. Heaslip
9. Marshall
10. Sexton (ROG did play very well but Sexton had the game over by half time)
11. Fitzgerald
12. D'arcy (scored 1 try, vital role in the other)
13. O'Malley
14. Howlett (Munster's best outside back by quite some distance)
15. Kearney (Hard to pick anyone else really)

Subs (only those worth mentioning):
18. White (excellent play when he came on, really impressed)
20. Leamy
21. Boss
22. Chambers (this guy is a seriously good player, stick him in a backline with Howlett and Munster will get something going in the backs for once)

shuffol

wixfjord wrote: »

But my point there was you can't criticise the stats on one point, and then utilise them in another. He's down for two turnovers, which could have been David Pocock alike or simply picking up a loose ball after good work by SOB.
He's also down three missed tackles which could have been Gray rampaging at him from 20 yards or Cussiter knocking him on his arse from a standing start!


As the saying goes, lies, damed lies and statistics, and anyone who saw the game yesterday will know how well he played, and what he brings to the game. Him and Leo were well on top of a strong Glasgow pairing, and Toner's actually got very good hands.

There's certainly no sympathy from me, and if anything, it's the other way around as this will attest to.

Turnovers mean been turned over by the opposition

wixfjord

shuffol wrote: »

Turnovers mean been turned over by the opposition

Are you sure?
Even so, my point stands though.

shuffol

wixfjord wrote: »

Are you sure?
Even so, my point stands though.

Yea I'm sure. Not sure about your point about stats though. Have you any statistics to back it up?

I'm not just judging Dev on the basis of the eggheads at ESPN, I genuinely wasnt that impressed by his performance and do think he is fairly easily ran through in general. Had a look at the stats and they seemed to back up what I saw or thought I saw. Sure we'll leave it there for now...unless you want to admit your wrong and I'm right;)

wixfjord

My point was that you can use stats to try and prove anything, it doesn't mean it's true.
For example, Mike Ross has probably never carried for more than 10 metres in one game in his life, or made a turnover, but he's undoubtedly one of the most important players in the Irish and Leinster team.
If you hadn't watched the game yesterday, you could say that O Malley scored two tries and he's better than BOD now, but we know they were tap ins.

Toner has been recognised as playing very well, he got last month's player of the month, and was part of a lineout which kept Gray and Kellock quiet. It's not that simple to say he has poor stats so he played poorly.

GerM

Annabella1 wrote: »

Agree that Tuohy was good..but he is a 4 jumper just like POC.Not sure if he is a 2 option for 6N

In an ideal world, yes. But line outs aren't so static that we purely use those criteria. POC has often taken ball at the front. DOC is an average jumper anywhere in the line out. Tuohy would be equal to him at the front I'm sure. Even Heaslip takes a fair bit of ball at the front for Leinster these days. Lets get our best players on the park and then utilise them as effectively as we can.

kilns

Have you forgotten who the coach of Ireland is, Tuohy wont get a look in

Annabella1

GerM wrote: »

In an ideal world, yes. But line outs aren't so static that we purely use those criteria. POC has often taken ball at the front. DOC is an average jumper anywhere in the line out. Tuohy would be equal to him at the front I'm sure. Even Heaslip takes a fair bit of ball at the front for Leinster these days. Lets get our best players on the park and then utilise them as effectively as we can.

Still handy to have a specialist 2 jumper especially on a defensive throw on your own line...meet u half way!

totallegend

kilns wrote: »

Have you forgotten who the coach of Ireland is, Tuohy wont get a look in

Yeah, with all this talk of Toner and Tuohy and even McCarthy, I'd stick my house on POC (rightly) and whichever of DOC or Ryan is in favour.

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

Yeah, with all this talk of Toner and Tuohy and even McCarthy, I'd stick my house on POC (rightly) and whichever of DOC or Ryan is in favour.

I'm just really saying who I'm hopinh for though. I wouldn't want McCarthy really, he's nearly 30 so I think we should be looking at younger players as long term replacements from POC/DOC. Hence POC, Ryan, Toner, Tuohy. I don't think Kidney will pick Cullen again, nor would I.

The 4 I think Kidney will pick is POC, DOC, Ryan and one of Tuohy/Toner.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The 4 I think Kidney will pick is POC, DOC, Ryan and one of Tuohy/Toner.

Which would just be further indication that he doesn't care how well players are playing. Tuohy has been excellent any time he's gotten a run of games. He's been a bit unlucky with injuries, but he's easily the second best lock available to Ireland now. He's a far more "modern" lock then any of the other options (including POC).

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Which would just be further indication that he doesn't care how well players are playing. Tuohy has been excellent any time he's gotten a run of games. He's been a bit unlucky with injuries, but he's easily the second best lock available to Ireland now. He's a far more "modern" lock then any of the other options (including POC).

he's probably the only lock in Ireland to average more than 2 yards per carry.

I was screaming his name for the AIs last year and then he went and got himself hurt...

Bonesjones4444

porterbelly wrote: »

McSharry was up against 6'4 18 stone 70 odd cap Jauzion, McSharry's 3rd senior cap, 21 years of age, 4 stone lighter and he acquitted himself superbly. Got over the gainline, made his tackles, and had a go when it was on. This guy can really play.

In fairness McSharry's about 15 1/2 stone himself (or at least he was when with UCD last year) and about 6'3, whereas Jauzion is closer to 17 stone.

So not quite the discrepancy in size you make out, although the discrepancy in experience was obviously huge not that it showed in their respective performances.

Farold

Can't argue with this one to be honest:

1. ....
2.Best
3.Ross
4.Touhy
5.Toner
6.POM
7.SOB - don't know where the criticism is coming from sky sports analysts highlighted some of his unseen work at the half time analysis, he made a massive difference.
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan - The only scrumhalf to have an unblemished performance
10.Sexton
11.Fitzgerald
12.McSharry
13.O'Malley
14.Trimble
15.Kearney

vinny chase

My team:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. O'Connell
5. Tuohy
6. Ferris
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10.Sexton
11.Trimble
12.Fitzgerald
13.Cave
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

Reps: Cronin, Court, Ryan, O'Mahony, Murray, O'Gara, McFadden

Assuming the following players injured: D. Wallace, K. Earls

Would love to see lads like Chris Henry, Roger Wilson, Niall Morris, Eoin O'Malley, Rhys Ruddock and Paul Marshall get an opportunity too, but as we don't have any non-competitive clashes ahead of the 6N I think it's unlikely.