Hypothetical question - Maynooth line

markpb

If the Sligo line wasn't used for IC services, would the Western commuter line have been better served by high capacity, heavy rail services operating at their current 30/60 minute frequencies to Maynooth or by lower capacity, light rail services operating at 5/10/15 minute frequencies to Castleknock or Clonsilla?

For me, I can't see the advantage of heavy rail services (in the current, Irish implementation). Luas from SSG to Stephens Green is 10km and takes 20 minutes. Suburban from Connolly to Castleknock is about the same distance and takes 15 minutes so there's not much of a time/speed difference there but the level of service offered by trams is 4-15 times better than the suburban rail service.

It might also have resulted in greater densification inside the M50 instead of creating a corridor along the N4 out to Maynooth.

Am I missing something? The only downside I can see is that peak capacity might be an issue (CAF 29k carries 835 and Alstom 4000 carries 358) but the increased frequency would offset that.

n97 mini

Obviously we'll never know, but I would be of the opinion that build it and they will come. I think the Maynooth line needs a more frequent (electrified) service. Dublin 15 is bigger than Tallaght, and Leixlip/Maynooth and their catchment area is probably about the size of Waterford city.

CIE

What would light rail do except reduce capacity, top speed and average speed for twice the amount of capital monies?

If anything, what is today's Luas Green Line and Maynooth Line should have been built into a DART line from Maynooth to Bray, going via Broadstone and then underground to Harcourt Street with stops at the GPO and Trinity College. Would have left room at Connolly to re-establish the former MGWR line to Navan as a frequent DMU operation as well. But no, things had to go the light rail route, too reminiscent of the Simpsons' "Monorail" episode for comfort.

markpb

CIE wrote: »

What would light rail do except reduce capacity, top speed and average speed for twice the amount of capital monies?

Can you explain/back-up any of those assertions? Currently, trains on the chunk of suburban rail that I mentioned are only slightly faster than trams on light rail. Are trams and line-of-sight signalling really twice the price of trains and proper signalling?

L1011

Seeing as the existing 29k trains are full to standing before they get to / full until after Clonsilla at peak, no, there'd be no reason to run trains only till there.

Maynooth's 10k permanent population and 2-3k students who don't census here; and Leixlip is 15k+.

BrianD

Bear in mind that the Red Line from The Point to Tallaght is a 60min journey. Would the route to Blanch/Clonsilla be better?

CIE

markpb wrote: »

Can you explain/back-up any of those assertions? Currently, trains on the chunk of suburban rail that I mentioned are only slightly faster than trams on light rail. Are trams and line-of-sight signalling really twice the price of trains and proper signalling?

The way the RPA spends, they are. €36.4 million per mile on average for capital costs is no small amount; I suspect that merely electrifying 15 miles of railway out to Maynooth would be significantly less. Using smaller vehicles running at more frequent intervals means a more labour-intensive operation, and the honour system (quite the misnomer) puts even more fare revenue at risk. Luas trams cannot travel faster than 43 mph no matter what, and that's not competitive with driving. Both DART and diesel commuter run at an average speed of 25 mph on local trains, or at least that is how it's timetabled (that's not "slightly faster" than Luas but a good deal so); converting that operation to Luas not only slows that down, but also reduces comfort (and the Citadis tram's interior is not known for being a match comfort-wise even to the 8100-class EMUs, never mind the garish interior colours of Luas with the yellow/purple clash).

BTW, Luas signalling appears to be absolute block rather than line-of-sight. That wouldn't allow for very fast top speeds, even though it's okay for high volume at low speed.

I've mentioned in other threads how tram-train operations do share tram operation with heavy rail; however, there is still the track gauge mismatch between Luas and Ireland's general railway network and the use of Citadis vehicles that are non-tram-train. Tram trains are usually also geared for higher speeds; the Karlsruhe tram-trains match our DART in top speed (100 km/h) for example. Either one or the other system would have to compromise in order to integrate in this fashion.

antoinolachtnai

You could indeed run a more frequent train service from Coolmine. You could also run a spur up to Blanchardstown. There is a reservation there for a railway line since 1972.

You would need to remove the level crossings.

As to whether you would need to cancel Sligo services to do this - there is actually a lot of 'in principle' capacity, because there are four tracks to the west of Glasnevin -. The problem is that these are split between Docklands and Connolly. And the problem at the moment is there isn't really the capacity going into Connolly and the Loop line for high-frequency services.

The solution, it would seem, would be to make the Docklands line usable and attractive by continuing underground from Docklands to Pearse and St Stephen's Green. You would also need to completely grade separate the Belfast line from the Western lines. This is actually not so difficult to do.

AngryLips

Is there demand for travel into Connolly or Docklands? Maybe if the line spurred towards Broadstone and onwards to O'Connell St...

antoinolachtnai

There would be demand for Connolly, but there isn't enough capacity there. Docklands would not attract much demand off-peak.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You would need to remove the level crossings.

That is the early part of the plan, with most or all of the crossings expected to go before resignalling / electrification. There need not be a huge amount of work on the Northern line, especially if services operated Bray-Maynooth (with possibly some Howth/Malahide to Dún Laoghaire/Bray services remaining).

There is quite a bit of scope for a third or fourth track on the Maynooth line without much disruption to the railway or neighbours.

CIE

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You could indeed run a more frequent train service from Coolmine. You could also run a spur up to Blanchardstown. There is a reservation there for a railway line since 1972.

You would need to remove the level crossings.

As to whether you would need to cancel Sligo services to do this - there is actually a lot of 'in principle' capacity, because there are four tracks to the west of Glasnevin. The problem is that these are split between Docklands and Connolly. And the problem at the moment is there isn't really the capacity going into Connolly and the Loop line for high-frequency services.

The solution, it would seem, would be to make the Docklands line usable and attractive by continuing underground from Docklands to Pearse and St Stephen's Green. You would also need to completely grade separate the Belfast line from the Western lines. This is actually not so difficult to do.

I don't seem to recall that there is any place you can turn trains at Coolmine. The nearest place to that would be Clonsilla station. Increasing frequency is down to demand, and I don't see how demand could be greater than the 10-minute peak frequency it has now; certainly not up to any 5-minute frequency, something that wasn't even part of DART demand back when they used to run two-car trains off-peak. IE's focus, however, is on building extraneous stations with little use (e.g. "Phoenix Park", I mean "Navan Road Parkway") that serve mostly to slow down average speed.

There have been various proposals for a spur to Blanchardstown; the last one was part of the (even more expensive) Metro proposals. If any reservation still exists for a commuter spur, it'd be a miracle if it wasn't built upon already.

Elimination of level crossings has no use except in the case of creating more safety for a high-speed intercity operation (200 km/h or faster). Commuter services are not high speed. IE saw and sees no need in eliminating any DART level crossings; they're all still there, from Sutton through Ballsbridge to Bray; they certainly aren't going to increase any speeds of southern intercity service down to places like Wexford or Rosslare.

Forget about bringing back the so-called "DART Underground" or "Interconnector" or whatever they were calling it du jour. That's gone, and it did not serve the city centre anyway. And I see they backed off on running DART to Kildare; at the end, they wanted to run it to the middle of nowhere in Hazelhatch. Why not to Naas, in that case? Couldn't throw in a few extra bob to resurrect part of the old Tullow Line to serve a large population centre that not even DB serves, even though it's closer to Dublin than a place like Ballymore Eustace, which DB does serve?

As for even dreaming of cancelling any Sligo trains...well, why did IE reduce capacity at Connolly over the years? They removed tracks, made platforms shorter, and never implemented any serious signalling improvements that would allow for high-capacity throughput. Why are commuter trains even going onto the Loop Line when it's possible to instead transfer to DART trains? (After all, the whole concept of the DART Underground Interconnector whatsit centres around forced transfers, and the idea certainly envisioned Pearse's platforms becoming extra-jammed with transfer passengers; Connolly is better equipped to handle that, even in its current state...they need to restore some of the terminus capacity that has been thrown away, though; maybe bring back the old inset Platform 4 as a start? also, rebuild the old loop track that used to be adjacent to Platform 7, and build Platform 8 next to that? and reopening the original DART entrance across from Buckingham Street might help with foot traffic throughput as well.)

Victor

CIE wrote: »

Elimination of level crossings has no use except in the case of creating more safety for a high-speed intercity operation (200 km/h or faster). Commuter services are not high speed. IE saw and sees no need in eliminating any DART level crossings; they're all still there, from Sutton through Ballsbridge to Bray; they certainly aren't going to increase any speeds of southern intercity service down to places like Wexford or Rosslare.

Level crossings have an effect on service speed, but more importantly have the ability to cause reliability problems.

markpb

To come back to my original question, I don't have a preference for heavy vs light rail but the level of service on the Maynooth line is laughable compared to the Dart or Luas so the track looks underused to me. The current level of service might be acceptable for outer suburban communities (like Leixlip and Maynooth) but it should be unacceptable for people living closer to Dublin.

Morning peak (8am to 10am)
Suburban: 4 trains
Dart: 10 trains
Luas: approx. 20 trains

Saturdays
Suburban: 1 train
Dart: 4 trains
Luas: approx. 10 trains

Why should the level of service be so much worse between Connolly and Coolmine than between Connolly and Howth Junction or Tallaght? It looks like a pretty raw deal for people living alongside a train line to get a much worse service than pretty much any other rail line in the city.

Upgrading the Maynooth line (as it is right now?) to give a better level of service would seem to require:
- electrifying the line
- removing the level crossings
- upgrading the signalling (will the western line be covered by DASH2)
- buying more heavy rail stock

I can't see that happening any time soon

AngryLips

In the case of Dart there are three stations serving the city centre and both Luas lines couldn't get any more central if they tried. Maynooth only serves Connolly and for most people that is not the final destination. I'm sure it could sustain more frequent services if that weren't the case.

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

In the case of Dart there are three stations serving the city centre and both Luas lines couldn't get any more central if they tried. Maynooth only serves Connolly and for most people that is not the final destination. I'm sure it could sustain more frequent services if that weren't the case.

So you're saying the level of service is awful because there's no demand along the line? I'm not sure that's true and anyway, don't almost all the Maynooth inbound trains terminate at Pearse?

n97 mini

markpb wrote: »

The current level of service might be acceptable for outer suburban communities (like Leixlip and Maynooth)

It isn't, it's too slow and too infrequent, and the last train from the city centre is earlier than all DARTs and Northern Suburban.

If the line isn't going to be electrified IE should learn a lesson from NIR and run peak time trains non-stop. e.g. Bangor to Belfast. Same should be done for Maynooth/Leixlip.

n97 mini

AngryLips wrote: »

In the case of Dart there are three stations serving the city centre and both Luas lines couldn't get any more central if they tried. Maynooth only serves Connolly and for most people that is not the final destination. I'm sure it could sustain more frequent services if that weren't the case.

The majority serve Connolly, Tara and Pearse. If the line was electrified they could all serve Bray.

OurLadyofKnock

They shoud terminate most of the Sligo IC services at Maynooth or Clonsilla - this would give the passengers more travel options and increase the commuter frequency on the Maynooth line. The Sligo Inter-City trains are mostly empty these days anyways. Maybe have a direct morning and evening service to SLigo - but the rest terminate at Manooth or Clonsilla. Might even also allow for more commuter services to Mullingar/Longford. If IE were savy they would be using the Docklands and Connolly option to a more effective degree than now.

Aard

(Warning: crayoning)

Down the line, might something like this be desirable:

New link between Maynooth and Adamstown, allowing all Sligo trains terminate at Heuston. Then the whole route between Maynooth/Pace and Dublin is electrified and dedicated to commuting. There'd be an interchange at Maynooth, or just east of Maynooth. Obviously, there would need to be upgrading of the line into Heuston, but the KRP would cover that I'd imagine.

Even if this is 50 years into the future, I'd think it wise to keep some sort of reservation through the area betwee Maynooth and Leixlip. This is planned to be the location of new towns in the future, given its attractive location in terms of infrastructure. So, best avoid having to knock down houses etc, or trying to make convoluted routings work (hello Blanchardstown). Maybe I'm thinking ahead too much.

L1011

No way would you get a line over Castletown Demense approved. Would need to tunnel, and with the RSC rules it'd need to be twin bore...

n97 mini

Is the Sligo line making money beyond Mullingar? Is it even making money as far as Mullingar?

MYOB wrote: »

No way would you get a line over Castletown Demense approved. Would need to tunnel, and with the RSC rules it'd need to be twin bore...

You're joking! This is the same Kildare County Council that gave planning permission for 430 houses to be built around the Wonderful Barn, itself part of the Castletown Estate.

saywhatyousee

n97 mini wrote: »

Is the Sligo line making money beyond Mullingar? Is it even making money as far as Mullingar?

It is the third busiest rail line in the country After Dublin/cork Dublin/Galway

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

You're joking! This is the same Kildare County Council that gave planning permission for 430 houses to be built around the Wonderful Barn, itself part of the Castletown Estate.

It wouldn't be KCCs to decide upon. ABP straight off for a railway order.

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

It wouldn't be KCCs to decide upon. ABP straight off for a railway order.

ABP upheld KCC's grant of permission despite quite a lot of local opposition.

n97 mini

saywhatyousee wrote: »

It is the third busiest rail line in the country After Dublin/cork Dublin/Galway

I would be surprised if it's making money beyond Maynooth.

coolperson05

Would sending Sligo trains to Docklands work I wonder? Then again you'd upset a big commuter base (Mullingar/Longford). The Sligo service is a substantial one - 16 trains a day excluding Longford commuters....
The easiest way to do it is a couple of non stop services at peak times to Maynooth but then you're cutting off demand inward.

CIE

n97 mini wrote: »

Is the Sligo line making money beyond Mullingar? Is it even making money as far as Mullingar?

State-run passenger rail service does not make money. Don't know if that's a result of regulations, the unique governmental "accounting" (including capital and operational spending) or other factors, but the bizarre thing is that private passenger rail could make money while the state mysteriously cannot.

n97 mini wrote: »

This is the same Kildare County Council that gave planning permission for 430 houses to be built around the Wonderful Barn, itself part of the Castletown Estate

...meanwhile, they can't even sell any of the existing houses. My cousin owns a house in Cedar Park that he's been trying to unload for years; we've watched its value fall to about a quarter of what it used to be worth.

victor wrote: »

Level crossings have an effect on service speed, but more importantly have the ability to cause reliability problems

I've never heard of either effect as a physical result of level crossings. That sounds more regulatory to me. I'm aware of trains traversing level crossings at high speeds (200 km/h or so, sometimes faster).

markpb wrote: »

the level of service on the Maynooth line is laughable compared to the Dart or Luas

What do you mean "laughable"? It costs money to run trains every five minutes off-peak. The gravy train is at an end, and that means you can't run as many real trains. Beating up the infrastructure with unnecessary frequent service also means more money down the proverbial rat-hole. Maybe you don't remember the time when there were just four trains a day out to Leixlip (and the first stop out of Connolly was Ashtown), but I do; and they were the 6100-class push-pull cars with the Metrovicks, rather abused during their time running to Howth and Bray. I even remember the time when the only option to/from most of the towns along the line was the bus, and the first stop for trains out of Connolly was Mullingar. So I'd say "laughable" is quite relative, never mind an emotional argument.

The DMUs, as far as I can see, operate at the same average speed as the EMUs. And they have toilets. Converting to EMU would not only be more money (hence more debt to Germany; no thanks), but also a downgrade in service. And if my eyes don't deceive me, there are actually some through services that run to/from Maynooth onto the former DSER, some running beyond Bray (one from Arklow, and one to Wexford). Convert too rapidly from DMU to EMU, and you can bet that those services will be gone.

ourladyatknock wrote: »

They shou(l)d terminate most of the Sligo IC services at Maynooth or Clonsilla

Sure, and why don't we terminate all Dublin-Cork trains at Kildare as well, and all Wexford/Rosslare trains at Bray or Dun Laoghaire, or the Enterprise at Malahide? Then none of the above would be inter-city. Never mind the intercity service not being operated at speeds faster than they operate commuter rail in some cities around the world...

(PS. You forgot your trollface.)

markpb

CIE wrote: »

What do you mean "laughable"? It costs money to run trains every five minutes off-peak. The gravy train is at an end, and that means you can't run as many real trains. Beating up the infrastructure with unnecessary frequent service also means more money down the proverbial rat-hole.

Why are Luas trams still running at 4-5 minute and Darts at 10-15 minute intervals then? Why are RPA and Veolia able to make an operational profit running 12 trams per hour? Should someone tell them that the gravy train is at an end?

Or maybe the people in Blanch and the surrounding areas should be told that it might be rubbish but it's better than some random point in history that you remember? I'm sure that'll console them when they're waiting an hour for their next train

CIE

markpb wrote: »

Why are Luas trams still running at 4-5 minute and Darts at 10-15 minute intervals then? Why are RPA and Veolia able to make an operational profit running 12 trams per hour? Should someone tell them that the gravy train is at an end?

Or maybe the people in Blanch and the surrounding areas should be told that it might be rubbish but it's better than some random point in history that you remember? I'm sure that'll console them when they're waiting an hour for their next train

The only source claiming that Luas is making an operational profit is Veolia themselves. No independent verification out there that I can see. The only way to insure high farebox compliance with the honour system is to have high manpower checking tickets, and that will certainly eat into any revenue stream.

Of course, the other side of the coin can be that IE is actually making an operational profit and cooking the books to make it look like a loss. Again, no way to independently verify that.

"An hour for their next train" is anecdotal. The only day it's so timetabled is Sunday, anyhow.

If you really want to run trains every five minutes, it's physically possible right now. Is the demand there?

antoinolachtnai

I would think that RPA look into whether there is an operational profit/suplus on Luas. RPA would have to pay Veolia if it made a loss, so I'm sure they'd have heard.

There are some technicalities about the operational profit though. Things like rolling stock maintenance and depreciation seem to be outside the definition of 'profitability'.

In terms of demand, there is a lot more population density on the Maynooth line as far as Coolmine than there is on the DART to Bray. It is at least comparable to the density around the Green Luas.

You really cannot run a train every five minutes from Coolmine to Connolly. There is not the capacity and it would be expensive to operate compared without electrification. You could probably run to Docklands, but it isn't really a destination and there wouldn't be the demand. You'd need to run further.

markpb

CIE wrote: »

The only source claiming that Luas is making an operational profit is Veolia themselves. No independent verification out there that I can see.

Nice strawmen you're throwing up there.

Luas operator Veolia booked a €2.3 million pretax profit last year and paid a €3.3 million dividend to its holding company parent. The accounts were just filed to the companies office

(IrishTimes - 2010)

The private operator of the Luas light rail system in Dublin last year increased its business by 25pc to €40m. According to returns to the Companies' Office, the growth in business for Veolia Transport Dublin Light Rail Ltd resulted in the company increasing its pre-tax profits by 2pc to €2.2m.

(Irish Independent - 2009)

RPA is pleased to report an increase in passenger numbers on Luas from 25.4 million in 2009 to 27.5 million in 2010 and a pre-tax operating surplus on our infrastructure activities of €1.1m

(RPA Annual Report 2010)

You can continue to suggest that Veoila are lying, cooking the books, fooling their auditors or whatever you want but the statutory accounts show that both companies are making an operating profit.

If you really want to run trains every five minutes, it's physically possible right now. Is the demand there?

What makes you think that the demand along the western line for a quality rail service would be any lower than the demand along the Dart or Luas lines? The Dart does okay considering half its catchment is in the sea.

n97 mini

CIE wrote: »

"An hour for their next train" is anecdotal. The only day it's so timetabled is Sunday, anyhow.

Maynooth/Leixlip on Saturdays is also an hour between trains, as is Dunboyne/M3 P+R. Which isn't fair as I suspect there is a far bigger population and potential patronage in the former.

n97 mini

markpb wrote: »

What makes you think that the demand along the western line for a quality rail service would be any lower than the demand along the Dart or Luas lines?

As I said earlier Castleknock to Maynooth has a catchment area of probably 140,000 souls, especially if a few feeder buses were introduced into D15.

After the electrification of Dublin-Howth and Dublin-Bray, the electrification of Dublin-Maynooth was the next obvious major work, even ahead of the Luas.

antoinolachtnai

I agree re the strength of the catchment. But what this line really lacks is a strong destination, especially if it cannot go into Connolly and Pearse. These are not particularly magnificent destinations either.

saywhatyousee

n97 mini wrote: »

I would be surprised if it's making money beyond Maynooth.

The latest stats i can get is there was 1.34 million intercity trips on the Sligo line in 2008. That does not include trips to Maynooth.And with recent competition on the Galway route from bus company's its very possible the Sligo line could be the second busiest in the country.They would not be running 8 trains a day if there was no demand.You probaly just singled out the Sligo line because you thought it was a seemingly easy target.Why not tell the people on the Limerick/Galway/Waterford/Mayo trains to hop off at Kildare?Or are we less important than they are ?

antoinolachtnai

Where did you get that statistic from? (I don't doubt it, but definitely interested).

saywhatyousee

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Where did you get that statistic from? (I don't doubt it, but definitely interested).

A boards thread interestingly enough "this photo sums up everything wrong with Irish rail and CIE" is the name of the thread its in this forum from last year. I got it by typing Intercity passenger numbers Sligo line in to Google

CIE

markpb wrote: »

Nice strawmen you're throwing up there.

(IrishTimes - 2010)

(Irish Independent - 2009)

(RPA Annual Report 2010)

You can continue to suggest that Veoila are lying, cooking the books, fooling their auditors or whatever you want but the statutory accounts show that both companies are making an operating profit

How come all those sources verified what I said, though? According to Veolia, they made an operating profit (and of course RPA backed them up). It's not beyond them to lie. How come they couldn't make an operating profit when they were Connex, over in Britain?

My demand for independent verification still stands, and it's not without validity.

What makes you think that the demand along the western line for a quality rail service would be any lower than the demand along the DART or Luas lines? The DART does okay considering half its catchment is in the sea

More emotional arguments using terms without definitions, "quality rail service".

If IE are deliberately holding down service frequency on the Maynooth Line (presuming this is the "quality" referred to; it's actually quantity) to increase emotional demand for electrified service, I'd like to see the evidence for that. Do I personally think that increasing service frequency would be a good sell? Yes. Does the mode matter? I think it matters less, and you can do five-minute frequencies (12 tph) with DMUs if that's what you want, although you'd have to actually use Connolly as what it was designed to be, that being a terminus.

n97 mini wrote: »

After the electrification of Dublin-Howth and Dublin-Bray, the electrification of Dublin-Maynooth was the next obvious major work, even ahead of the Luas

How is it "obvious", though? Are we that ready to render recent DMU purchases to premature obsolescence (average age of all non-intercity DMUs currently in service is 12.8 years, remember), in Simpsons-Monorail fashion? The trains won't get any faster; they might even get slower, since the DART fleet has a lower top speed than the DMUs do. (And of course, the 8100-class are themselves 14 years older than the average age of the DMUs.)

At one time, it was "obvious" that Dublin-Cork needed to be electrified. But nowadays, we have to settle for no faster than 100 mph with diesel-electric power from an engine built for freight (hauling coaches that came from a design that was supposed to have supported 140-mph operation), or diesel-hydraulic also limited to 100 mph. Welcome to the mid-20th century, lads. :rolleyes:

antoinolachtnai

Veolia make an operating profit for the service they provide to the RPA. They are just a service provider who happens to handle the cash operations.

This has nothing to do with the Luas making an operating profit. The Luas does not make an operating profit, and nobody claims it did (at least RPA never claimed that). In actual fact, it made an operating loss last year of around EUR 37m. It made a surplus (without taking depreciation into account) of around 1m.

CIE

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Veolia make an operating profit for the service they provide to the RPA. They are just a service provider who happens to handle the cash operations.

This has nothing to do with the Luas making an operating profit. The Luas does not make an operating profit, and nobody claims it did (at least RPA never claimed that). In actual fact, it made an operating loss last year of around EUR 37m. It made a surplus (without taking depreciation into account) of around 1m.

Thud.

Any contract operator can claim to have profited off its contract.

n97 mini

saywhatyousee wrote: »

They would not be running 8 trains a day if there was no demand.

At Carrick-on-Shannon I have frequently counted less than 30 passengers on trains passing through. On more than one occasion I have counted less than 10.

The frequency of 8 trains a day was a standard was set by the Celtic Tiger when there was loads of cash sloshing around to throw at things that were loss-making. When we had no money there were 3 trains a day, and even at that the line was making a loss.

saywhatyousee wrote: »

You probaly just singled out the Sligo line because you thought it was a seemingly easy target.Why not tell the people on the Limerick/Galway/Waterford/Mayo trains to hop off at Kildare?Or are we less important than they are ?

You're not less important, but you are probably costing us more money.

n97 mini

CIE wrote: »

How is it "obvious", though?

Look at the DART. Build it and they will come.

CIE wrote: »

Are we that ready to render recent DMU purchases to premature obsolescence

We made a mistake and now we have to live with it? Why can't we sell them?

CIE wrote: »

The trains won't get any faster; they might even get slower, since the DART fleet has a lower top speed than the DMUs do.

If the DMUs were better the DART would be diesel.

The DMUs have poor acceleration whereas the DART has excellent acceleration and this is all that matters when all you stops are close together. Acceleration in urban rail is king. I have graphed speeds on the Maynooth line and DART and between most stations the DMUs only finish accelerating to 45mph before it starts decelerating again. On the DART they're up to top speed in a matter of seconds.

That's not to mention all the other logistical advantages of electric.

AngryLips

n97 mini wrote: »

The frequency of 8 trains a day was a standard was set by the Celtic Tiger when there was loads of cash sloshing around to throw at things that were loss-making. When we had no money there were 3 trains a day, and even at that the line was making a loss.

IE are typically behind demand instead of ahead of it.

the_syco

Victor wrote: »

There is quite a bit of scope for a third or fourth track on the Maynooth line without much disruption to the railway or neighbours.

The bridges say no :P There are a few of them that would only allow two physical railway lines, unless you take out one of the platforms (and hovered it over the canal, which I can't see happening).

n97 mini wrote: »

You're joking! This is the same Kildare County Council that gave planning permission for 430 houses to be built around the Wonderful Barn, itself part of the Castletown Estate.

Different kettle of fish. The line would go through what is seen as a public park. The line would also go through land used by stables, so that would be costly, and it would include a steep climb (for a train), as the land rises north of the motorway.

CIE wrote: »

....meanwhile, they can't even sell any of the existing houses. My cousin owns a house in Cedar Park that he's been trying to unload for years; we've watched its value fall to about a quarter of what it used to be worth.

To be fair, Ched Park has the worst reputation in Leixlip, and that includes the Hill. A quarter of it's value? I see a house in Ched on daft.ie for €159,000 - I wouldn't even pay €50k for the shoebox! Heck, I wouldn't pay any amount of money to live there.

Also, the houses haven't been built on the land next to the Wonderful Barn, and will never get built. There's planning permission for houses next to existing (new) houses but that won't happen either; they barely finished off the rest of the houses that they had planned to build.

saywhatyousee

n97 mini wrote: »

At Carrick-on-Shannon I have frequently counted less than 30 passengers on trains passing through. On more than one occasion I have counted less than 10.

The frequency of 8 trains a day was a standard was set by the Celtic Tiger when there was loads of cash sloshing around to throw at things that were loss-making. When we had no money there were 3 trains a day, and even at that the line was making a loss.


You're not less important, but you are probably costing us more money.

How exactly are we costing "us" more money ? Passenger numbers are higher than Limerick, Waterford,Rosslare lines why not have a go at them? I get the train regular from Sligo to Dublin and the 5.45 am and the 7.00am trains are usually more than half full leaving Sligo and completely full by the time they reach Longford.The trains you observed were probaly the off-peak 11am and 1 pm which are fairly quiet,and even then these trains can be busy sometimes because of the 10 euro fares.

n97 mini

saywhatyousee wrote: »

How exactly are we costing "us" more money ? Passenger numbers are higher than Limerick, Waterford,Rosslare lines why not have a go at them?

I'm not in favour of maintaining the status quo on any loss making route.

If IE can't make a go of it, farm it out. If the private sector can't make a go of it, shut it. Not like we don't have a pretty good major road network and lots of buses.

I said it before, "because it's nice" isn't a reason to keep a train line open.

coolperson05

I have to say the notion of half full trains is something I rarely see. In the last week I've been Dublin to Belfast/Waterford and Maynooth and all of the above were full or nearly full! People are using them!

CIE

n97 mini wrote: »

Look at the DART. Build it and they will come

The DART was already there; all they did was electrify it. And service levels went up and down over the years. Not so "obvious". Never mind the Scott Wilson Report recommendation to de-electrify Bray-Greystones.

n97 mini wrote: »

me wrote: »

Are we that ready to render recent DMU purchases to premature obsolescence?

We made a mistake and now we have to live with it? Why can't we sell them?

Who are you going to sell them to? They're too wide for some British loading gauges. Other countries have varying platform heights; these cars are built for just one kind of platform height. Getting out of this "mistake" is not as easy as it looks. And of course, with the recession on, those DMUs aren't going anywhere. I don't recall there being a DMU pawn shop anywhere on the quays...

Bad enough that a whole fleet of Mark 3s were also rendered to premature obsolescence. And the Cravens, although steam-heated, were not in too bad of shape after four decades. Even four-decade-old GMs can still be rebuilt.

n97 mini wrote: »

If the DMUs were better the DART would be diesel

Who said "better"? and what aspect are you referring to?

I mentioned that the DMUs have superior facilities such as restrooms, and that they can go anywhere the DART cars can and beyond (citing trains such as Arklow-Maynooth and Maynooth-Wexford). I also mentioned that the DMUs have faster top speeds. Also, the seats in some classes of DMU might be more comfortable. (Of course, if I were forced into a choice between DART and light rail, then DART wins that one.)

n97 mini wrote: »

The DMUs have poor acceleration whereas the DART has excellent acceleration and this is all that matters when all you stops are close together. Acceleration in urban rail is king. I have graphed speeds on the Maynooth line and DART and between most stations the DMUs only finish accelerating to 45mph before it starts decelerating again. On the DART they're up to top speed in a matter of seconds

I think that your assessment here is purely anecdotal and possibly not based in reality. I've not heard of too many urban DMUs that can be that easily out-accelerated by urban EMUs; they're about equal. The timetables show equal average speeds to the DARTs with stops just as close together, on the Maynooth line. And I've never been in a single DART that has reached 62 mph "in a manner of seconds"; that's a claim that sounds a bit fantastical, with all due respect; otherwise the average speeds of the DART would be much faster than 25 mph.

n97 mini wrote: »

That's not to mention all the other logistical advantages of electric

Logistical advantages such as...? Having an electrified railway doubles the infrastructure cost (DC wires have substations very close together) and increases maintenance costs; you have to be very careful that your network is high-density enough for operating costs (which of course go down due to the much fewer moving parts of all-electric trains) to outweigh those maintenance costs. You can only run an electric motor as far as the wires or third rail goes, unless of course you have something like the old Drumm battery railcars; yet even the Drumm cars wouldn't have the range or the power of something powered by internal combustion. Logistics are against the electric, unless you have a very large support system; and frankly, if you have a big winter storm and your support system doesn't include proper insulation against the cold, you end up with dead wires (last winter brought Germany's high-speed rails to a standstill). Fallen wires bring the railway to a standstill too, even if you have diesels sharing the line. (And of course, the more electric railways you build around urban Dublin, the smaller the bus network will shrink; if Network Direct was bad in some respects, imagine what would happen to the 66/A/B and the 38/39/A/B if DART suddenly appeared on the Maynooth Line...)

n97 mini

^ Nearly every point in that post is wrong or irrelevant. On a 20 minute commuter journey does it matter what the restrooms are like? Hold on to it till you get home.

If you're arguing that it's best not to electrify the Maynooth line, I think you're probably on your own.

Victor

markpb wrote: »

What makes you think that the demand along the western line for a quality rail service would be any lower than the demand along the Dart or Luas lines? The Dart does okay considering half its catchment is in the sea.

Half the Maynooth line's catachment area is countryside: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,705359,737914,4,3