EU Directive on Agency Workers query

Krieg

Sorry if this has been asked, I tried doing several searches but didn't really find anything useful.

Im an agency worker and work for a company that has 50% permanent and 50% agency workers.Permanent staff receive weekend premiums, bonuses, extra holidays, healthcare, extra training, promotions (given to a person before being advertised) and 20% higher wages compared to agency workers.
How will the new directive ( EU Directive on Temporary Agency Work 2008/104/EC ) affect agency workers in this case?

Im assuming the agency workers will be entitled to the same training, but im not sure about the rest. The directive is quite vague and I have very little experience in translating these directives.

The citizens info website sums it up here -

The EU Directive on Temporary Agency Work 2008/104/EC (pdf) provides that temporary agency workers (TAWs) must have equal treatment with regular workers in respect of:

• The duration of working time, rest periods, night work, annual leave and public holidays
• Pay
• Work done by pregnant women and nursing mothers, children and young people
• Action taken to combat discrimination on the grounds of sex, race or ethnic origin, religion or beliefs, disabilities, age or sexual orientation.
• Temporary agency workers must also have equal access to facilities such as childcare and must be informed of permanent employment opportunities.

Under the Directive TAWs must have equal treatment from their first day at work. However, the Directive allows member states to derogate from this by agreements between the social partners. The Directive must be transposed into Irish law by 5 December 2011 (pdf).

But I went through the directive and couldnt find the black & white which says equal pay.We asked the company to clarify how this directive will impact us and we were essentially told "its none of your business".

Any input would be appreciated.

Krieg

I hope mods dont mind me bumping this thread, Im sure im not the only agency worker wondering about the effects of this directive.

Though I think there is a loophole where the company can take us off the agency, hire us directly but under a temporary contract with same terms and conditions we have as an agency worker. But maybe thats illegal

horse7

some news on rte today http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1130/jobs.html

Honey-ec

Your best bet is to speak to your agency about it, they'll have been in talks with the the company you're outsourced to..

thefinalstage

Honey-ec wrote: »

Your best bet is to speak to your agency about it, they'll have been in talks with the the company you're outsourced to..

Would a call centre worker working for an outsourcing company count as an agency worker?

Nody

poisonedstream wrote: »

Would a call centre worker working for an outsourcing company count as an agency worker?

Doubt it short of the company having their own staff in the outsourcing company doing the same job.

eejoynt

see post here also a link to government press statement
http://www.unionconnect.ie/hottopics/

horse7

anyone know how this will affect hospital care assistants working for an agency(at present paid 10.35euro an hour, not paid for bank hols,but paid 8% on basic pay for holidays e,g 8hrs =8x10.35, +8% of total before tax. i dont know what the hospitals pay their health care assistants.)

Jarren

It will be equal pay ,not sure about other benefits though


Employers will not be expected to provide equality on occupational pension schemes, financial participation, sick pay, benefit in kind or bonus payments.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/chaos-over-agency-worker-directive-175827.html

Molloys Clondalkin

Can anyone help me underatand how a company can pay equal to permananent staff and pay a commision to an agengy?

I hope this is the death knell of agencys and more companys can hire staff for the same money.

Im just worried this could lead to companies paying everyone min wage.

Madbod

Molloys Clondalkin wrote: »

Can anyone help me underatand how a company can pay equal to permananent staff and pay a commision to an agengy?

I hope this is the death knell of agencys and more companys can hire staff for the same money.

Im just worried this could lead to companies paying everyone min wage.

i think you have hit the nail on the head there, I can't see many employers being able to raise wages, however I can see permanent employees taking wage cuts to the level of agency workers

buzz55

What about IT Contractors that are contracted to a company through an agency - does this new legislation apply to them?

MilkTheGroup

Hey I've a quick question, hope somebody can help. I'm an agency worker. The permanent people I'm working with get about 440 a week, i get 300.

I'm paid a back week. so basically i got paid every tuesday for last weeks work. After I heard the directive was effective from yesterday, monday 5th December, I had been expecting an increase in my wage today when I got my payslip, however my wage had not changed?

Is this because I was being paid for work I did before the directive came into effect ie. last week? And if so, should I expect the increase in my payslip this coming tuesday?

Jarren

Talk to your agency first but mind you

Pay:
Temporary agency workers must be paid the same rate as if they had been hired directly by the end user. It is important to note that the comparator is the individual themselves and not someone doing a similar job.

http://www.hays.ie/press-releases/HAYS_506614

OldNotWIse

Does anyone know what the situation is with joingin a trade union? I am in a position where I am private sector (agency worker) in a public (semi state) company... I know everyone here is with the CPSU and I would like to join as I feel vulnerable at the moment (big changes coming up). The problem is, I have been told by the CPSU that because I am an agency worker (and therefore not on the payroll for this company) that deductions cannot be made from my wages for union subscription and therefore I cannot join. It seems unfair that I am being penalised because I am an agency worker. Surely agency workers (I thought ALL workers) have the right to join a union if they wish?

horse7

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

Hey I've a quick question, hope somebody can help. I'm an agency worker. The permanent people I'm working with get about 440 a week, i get 300.

I'm paid a back week. so basically i got paid every tuesday for last weeks work. After I heard the directive was effective from yesterday, monday 5th December, I had been expecting an increase in my wage today when I got my payslip, however my wage had not changed?

Is this because I was being paid for work I did before the directive came into effect ie. last week? And if so, should I expect the increase in my payslip this coming tuesday?

This is not being paid yet, i have asked my employer and received this reply ;Thank you for your email. We are still waiting for the government to pass the bill, until then I am afraid we just have to wait. The moment we hear anything we will inform our all agency staff. ; So does anyone know when this bill will be passed?

cladda1112

My oh is in a simular position as they were more or less told in around about way that they wouldnt be getting any increase in money. The company said that they cant aford it(yea right) and if it is that they have to pay it then they will be asking the permenant staff to take a pay reduction or they will have to leave people go.! You can see how they try and pit permenant staff and agency workers against each other.

Krieg

I must be working for the same company your OH works cladda
Though I imagine this kind of thing is happening in a few companies.

Supposedly it will be signed into law at the "end of February"

donkey balls

I was told by a lad I know who enquired about the directive with a manager in the company he is placed with and the answer he got back was to shut up about the directive or else he would be looking for employment else where.
As for the agencies fobbing people off saying it has not being brought in to law here that's the biggest load of b*lloX it has been in place since Dec 5th and considering it is an EU Directive it is law,It only has to pass the Dail in order for it to have legal powers i.e an S.I so the authority could prosecute a person/company.
Here is a link to the legislation either way the company who hires out a person to a company will also have to back pay the staff:p some agencies also sent out letters stating that this new Directive only affected public sector works etc biggest load of crap.
http://www.djei.ie/publications/employment/2011/AgencyNotice.pdf

punkerrandboy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Does anyone know what the situation is with joingin a trade union? I am in a position where I am private sector (agency worker) in a public (semi state) company... I know everyone here is with the CPSU and I would like to join as I feel vulnerable at the moment (big changes coming up). The problem is, I have been told by the CPSU that because I am an agency worker (and therefore not on the payroll for this company) that deductions cannot be made from my wages for union subscription and therefore I cannot join. It seems unfair that I am being penalised because I am an agency worker. Surely agency workers (I thought ALL workers) have the right to join a union if they wish?

Every citizen has the legal right to join a trade union - in other words your employer cannot stop you. In this case though it seems the union has an issue with agency workers which I find surprising. Depending on which semi-state you work in there might be other options. I have a friend in a semi-state who recently changed unions and joined the CWU. Try them.

OldNotWIse

Its just been announced that the compnay I work for (through an agency for the past 4 years) will begin letting temporary staff go in March. I called HR to clarify if I am classed as "temporary" and they said I am not, I am classed as "agency" but they didn't say if this shake up applies to agency workers (there are only 8 of us in the whole company). Not really sure what my rights or prospects are at this point.

OldNotWIse

Now have just been told that it DOES apply to agency workers aswell but I find it hard to believe after over 4 years they could let me go with nothing and for no reason...

cladda1112

This is happening in a lot of factories. Alot of OH mates that are employed with him have being let go. He will prob be next. And the disgraceful thing is they made a large profit last year as a company yet they wont pay their workers a decent wage...they shouldnt get away with this but they are and they will.

Krieg

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Now have just been told that it DOES apply to agency workers aswell but I find it hard to believe after over 4 years they could let me go with nothing and for no reason...

you may want to consider the possibility of hiring a solicitor after the directive is transposed to Irish law and demand you receive the redundancy pay at the permanent rate of pay. Im not sure if it would work though.

Nody

Krieg wrote: »

you may want to consider the possibility of hiring a solicitor after the directive is transposed to Irish law and demand you receive the redundancy pay at the permanent rate of pay. Im not sure if it would work though.

Redudancy amount (i.e. salary based for redundancy) is calculated based on the last two year's salary (this is a rough estimate from memory but in that region). Hence the redundancy amount will have very limited impact by a last month salary increase (talking about statutory here mind you).

OldNotWIse

Krieg wrote: »

you may want to consider the possibility of hiring a solicitor after the directive is transposed to Irish law and demand you receive the redundancy pay at the permanent rate of pay. Im not sure if it would work though.

Not sure, apparently entitlement to permanency after 4 years only holds if you have had two or more fixed term contracts. I am on "an implied contract of indefinite duration" (or, as I like to call it, an employment limbo)

whatnext

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Not sure, apparently entitlement to permanency after 4 years only holds if you have had two or more fixed term contracts. I am on "an implied contract of indefinite duration" (or, as I like to call it, an employment limbo)

I believe those engaged through an agency are also excluded from this requirement under the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term Work) Act 2003

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0029/print.html

Depending on how you were engaged by the agency you still may have redundancy entitlements. It you were engaged on a PAYE basis by the agency you may be entitled to redundancy from the Agency, but it is all dependant on exactly what type of contract you are on, and without reading it and knowing the exact circumstances I would not commit to making a definitive statement.

On a side note:
Its like there is a lobby on here for the legal industry, so many people recommending people go to a solicitor.
There are many free advice services out there, and in my opinion they should be first port off call for anyone with specific questions.
As for unions, they are only after your money, and personally Id rather burn my money than pass it on to them. From my experiences dealing with them they are as much a hindrance to employment if not more, than they are beneficial to protecting workers rights.

Mrs OBumble

whatnext wrote: »

On a side note:
Its like there is a lobby on here for the legal industry, so many people recommending people go to a solicitor.
There are many free advice services out there, and in my opinion they should be first port off call for anyone with specific questions.

I know about citizens information. Are there others? Links please, and we can find a sticky for them to go into ....

Krieg

JustMary wrote: »

I know about citizens information. Are there others? Links please, and we can find a sticky for them to go into ....

National Employment Rights Authority
http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/

They have been very helpful

Juxtapose

anyone got any idea if/when this new legislation will be passed?

Was it not due to be passed at the start of February? Theres so little information available about it.
Thanks.

Krieg

Here is where you can find progress updates

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2011/8011/document1.htm

Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Bill 2011



An Bille um Chosaint Fostaithe (Obair Ghníomhaireachta Shealadach), 2011

Bill Number 80 of 2011
Sponsored by Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation
Source: Government
Method: Presented
Status: New Bill



Bill entitled an Act to give effect to Directive 2008/104/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 19 November 2008 on temporary agency work; for that purpose to amend certain enactments; and to provide for matters connected therewith



Bille dá ngairtear Acht do thabhairt éifeachta do Threoir 2008/104/CE an 19 Samhain 2008 ó Pharlaimint na hEorpa agus ón gComhairle maidir le hobair ghníomhaireachta shealadach; chun na críche sin do leasú achtachán áirithe; agus do dhéanamh socrú i dtaobh nithe a bhaineann leis an méid sin



Dáil Éireann

First Stage
Presented 14/12/2011
Order for Second Stage 11/01/2012
Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Bill 2011 as initiated and Explanatory Memorandum (in PDF format)

Second Stage
11/01/2012
12/01/2012 (Resumed)
19/01/2012 (Resumed)
Referred to Select Committee 19/01/2012

Committee Stage


(Select Sub-Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation)
25/01/2012
02/02/2012
List of Proposed Committee Stage Amendments
Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Bill 2011 as amended in the Select Sub-Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (in PDF format)

Report and Final Stages
22/02/2012
List of Proposed Report Stage Amendments
(Short Title) Bill 2008 as passed by /Dáil/Seanad
****************************************************

Bill has reached this point

****************************************************

Dáil/Seanad Éireann
Second Stage
DDMMYY
Referred to Select Committee DDMMYY



Committee Stage (Select Committee on XX if applicable)
DDMMYY
List of Proposed Committee Stage Amendments
(Short Title) Bill 2008 as amended /in the Select Committee on XX /in committee by /Dáil Éireann (in PDF format)


Report and Final Stages
DDMMYY
List of Proposed Report Stage Amendments
(Short Title) Bill 2008 as passed by Dáil Éireann

Returned to first House (if applicable) Dáil/Seanad



Committee Stage (Delete the reference to 'Committee Stage' if the bill is being returned to Seanad)
DDMMYY
Report Stage
DDMMYY
List of Amendments made by /Dáil / Seanad Éireann
List of Proposed Amendments to Amendments made by Dáil/Seanad
Final Stage
(Short Title) Bill 2008 as passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas (in PDF format)


Enacted as Act Number NN of 2010
Date of Signature: DDMMYY
(Short Title Act) 2010 in PDF format
Official Translation

donkey balls

Good find Kreig;) I read through some of the legislation and what some of our TD had to say about it while the bill is been debated on,One thing that popped up was the Swedish derogation which means there is an opt out for companies,Over in the UK agencies have forced their staff to sign an opt out clause were the employee will receive an extra £1 :rolleyes: and if they refuse the agency won't give them more work.
As for employers&agencies they are holding out on till the directive comes into Irish law i.e an S.I what they don't seem to understand is that an employee will be entitled to back payments from the 5th december,with this directive it will be interesting to see whats left out that does not suit the govt yet on other legislation were told that it's EU law.:rolleyes:

horse7

Krieg wrote: »

Here is where you can find progress updates

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2011/8011/document1.htm

Have just seen this on my email following the blog,does this mean it is still not signed and sealed(enacted).

Krieg

horse7 wrote: »

Have just seen this on my email following the blog,does this mean it is still not signed and sealed(enacted).

No, The next step is for the Dáil/Seanad to decide what amendments to include, then it will be signed. There is still no given date for it to be signed in yet

horse7

any updates on this topic,please.

Dozo

Hi,

What is the status with this ? I work through an umbrella company as a PAYE worker and I get paid a daily rate. Meaning no work (ie easter, sick) no pay. The umbrella company has a contact with an agency and the agency with the hirer. What I don't understand is, am I entitled to holidays and sick day payments ? Who should pay ? I only pay the umbrella company a 'small' fee and I can not imagine they can pay my holidays out of that amount.

Thanks.

horse7

I dont mind waiting ,but this is crazy.

Luseifer

Hi everyone I check this thread daily for updates, t seems to be taking forever for news to filter through. I found this while trawling the net would like peoples opinons.

Update on the Agency Directive. 22.02.12

22 March 2012

To: Agency Nurses

From: Phil Ni Sheaghdha

Re: Protection of Employee Bill 2011
__________________________________________________________________________

Dear Colleagues

As you may be aware from our previous circulars (SEE BELOW), the Protection of Employee (temporary agency work) Bill 2011, is currently before the Senate. This is the normal procedure, and final stages prior to this piece of legislation coming back before the Dail, and ultimately being signed into law by the President.

We understand that the Debate on this legislation was postponed on the 21st March 2012, when it was due to be debated in the Senate, to another date in the future. Therefore there is no date when this legislation will be signed into law as yet. But it is likely to be within the next number of weeks.

In the meantime, we have an assurance from the HSE that all payments will be retrospectively paid to the 5th December 2011. Please see this correspondence which has been received from the HSE, and which we have asked them to circulate to the nursing agencies as well. In the event that you have difficulty in getting your incremental credit correctly paid from the 5th December from your agency, please provide them with a copy of the attached letter, and also advise them that it is your opinion, and your unions advice that you are entitled to your increment retrospective to the date that the directive had effect in the Republic of Ireland, which was Monday the 5th December 2011, and that they should seek said payment from the HSE once your proof of incremental credit has been provided to them.

I trust this clarifies the situation, if you have any difficulties in obtaining your entitlement, please do not hesitate to contact the undersigned, or any of our industrial relations officers, who are regionally based and areas they cover is set out on our website.

Thanking you.

Is Mise

___________________________________________
Phil Ni Sheaghdha
Director of Industrial Relations
Link Update on the Agency Directive. 22.02.12

22 March 2012

To: Agency Nurses

From: Phil Ni Sheaghdha

Re: Protection of Employee Bill 2011
__________________________________________________________________________

Dear Colleagues

As you may be aware from our previous circulars (SEE BELOW), the Protection of Employee (temporary agency work) Bill 2011, is currently before the Senate. This is the normal procedure, and final stages prior to this piece of legislation coming back before the Dail, and ultimately being signed into law by the President.

We understand that the Debate on this legislation was postponed on the 21st March 2012, when it was due to be debated in the Senate, to another date in the future. Therefore there is no date when this legislation will be signed into law as yet. But it is likely to be within the next number of weeks.

In the meantime, we have an assurance from the HSE that all payments will be retrospectively paid to the 5th December 2011. Please see this correspondence which has been received from the HSE, and which we have asked them to circulate to the nursing agencies as well. In the event that you have difficulty in getting your incremental credit correctly paid from the 5th December from your agency, please provide them with a copy of the attached letter, and also advise them that it is your opinion, and your unions advice that you are entitled to your increment retrospective to the date that the directive had effect in the Republic of Ireland, which was Monday the 5th December 2011, and that they should seek said payment from the HSE once your proof of incremental credit has been provided to them.

I trust this clarifies the situation, if you have any difficulties in obtaining your entitlement, please do not hesitate to contact the undersigned, or any of our industrial relations officers, who are regionally based and areas they cover is set out on our website.

Thanking you.

Is Mise

___________________________________________
Phil Ni Sheaghdha
Director of Industrial Relations

Luseifer

Link http://www.inmo.ie/Article/PrintArticle/9570

Nody

Dozo wrote: »

Hi,

What is the status with this ? I work through an umbrella company as a PAYE worker and I get paid a daily rate. Meaning no work (ie easter, sick) no pay. The umbrella company has a contact with an agency and the agency with the hirer. What I don't understand is, am I entitled to holidays and sick day payments ? Who should pay ? I only pay the umbrella company a 'small' fee and I can not imagine they can pay my holidays out of that amount.

Thanks.

You're in an independant legal entity (contractor); that means your daily rate is to cover everything including holiday pay, sick pay etc. as well. That's part of the downsides of being a contractor; you make more money but you lose security.

Dozo

Not as independent as it looks like. I am a PAYE worker and do not have my own ltd. I choose this option as I wanted to be sure that if something happens I am still entitled to unemployment benefit etc. (after being out of work for a while)

I think this is a ticking bomb and it will probably mean that umbrella companies only want to deal with ltd's.
Correct me if I am wrong, I did some searching on it but people working through unbrella companies are falling under the directive.

Mrs OBumble

Dozo wrote: »

I think this is a ticking bomb and it will probably mean that umbrella companies only want to deal with ltd's.
Correct me if I am wrong, I did some searching on it but people working through unbrella companies are falling under the directive.

I think you're probably right - except that there's an easy fix: the fee you pay to the umbrella company probably needs to increase by about 8% of your salary.

Dozo

That might happen or they abolish working with PAYE workers all together (ie only with self employed). But as the law will be effective from the 5th december 2011 and the longer it takes to implement the law the more holidays and public days I am entitled to. And they can't let me back pay for those days.

horse7

I wonder when the dail is sitting to wind this up.(pay rise for agency workers).

mirec

few more steps ....

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2011/8011/document1.htm

Luseifer

Thank you for the link. From what I read it looks like agency pay will be back dated to the 5/12/11. Alot of legal jargon I did not understand though. Please tell me I aint wrong could do with the extra few bob. Anybody care for guesstimate when the bill will be passed and comes into effect?

hardybuck

Last week I heard that this was due to be with the President on May 9th. After that he had 7 days to sign it.

Krieg

Bill has been passed

Heres the finalised bill
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2011/8011/b80c11d.pdf

mirec

hope that it will be Enacted soon.

Luseifer

Bump^^ because the bill is passes by the looks of it. Thoughts people please! I need a nice holiday so I am hoping to get my pay backdated to the 5th December. Might post a link to the bill in the legal section to get some answers.

Luseifer

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp.../document1.htm

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.


Enacted as Act Number 13 of 2012
Date of Signature: 16/05/2012
Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Act 2012 in PDF format Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Act 2012 in PDF format
Official Translation