Incorrectly set bus ticket machines, and Leap

MOH

Quite often I'll get on a bus, state my destination, pay the driver , then when I sit down I look at my ticket and discover it's not valid all the way to my destination, and the boarding point shown is a stop far earlier than where I got on. Or on a few occasions I've stated my destination and been told the wrong fare, which was corrected when I queried it.

It seems to be down to the ticket machines being set incorrectly, and not showing which stage the bus is currently at. It seems to happen on at least 10% of the bus journeys I make (and that's a low estimate).

I've often wondered what would happen if an inspector got on and I produce my invalid ticket, though presumably it would be possible to prove that the ticket machine had been incorrectly set.

However, it's just struck me that with the new integrated ticketing system, if it works on a tag on/off basis, there's a massive potential for overcharging customers without them easily noticing. If someone boards while the current location is misset, and it's correct before they alight, they're going to be charge for a longer journey than they made, with no way of knowing.

That is of course assuming the two machines work the same way, the smartcard scanner may work off a completely different system.

AlekSmart

MOH wrote: »

Quite often I'll get on a bus, state my destination, pay the driver , then when I sit down I look at my ticket and discover it's not valid all the way to my destination, and the boarding point shown is a stop far earlier than where I got on. Or on a few occasions I've stated my destination and been told the wrong fare, which was corrected when I queried it.

It seems to be down to the ticket machines being set incorrectly, and not showing which stage the bus is currently at. It seems to happen on at least 10% of the bus journeys I make (and that's a low estimate).

I've often wondered what would happen if an inspector got on and I produce my invalid ticket, though presumably it would be possible to prove that the ticket machine had been incorrectly set.

However, it's just struck me that with the new integrated ticketing system, if it works on a tag on/off basis, there's a massive potential for overcharging customers without them easily noticing. If someone boards while the current location is misset, and it's correct before they alight, they're going to be charge for a longer journey than they made, with no way of knowing.

That is of course assuming the two machines work the same way, the smartcard scanner may work off a completely different system.

Good man MOH !

Your post highlights the absolute nonsense of Dublin Bus pretending that it has a Fare-Stage system when a large proportion of it's Customers AND Staff have no idea where individual Fare-Stages are located.

This bizzarre situation is the result of the company somehow managing to erase all traces of Stage Markings on the stages themselves,instead relying upon customers (and Staff) being in possession of a Time-Table book which is often ambiguous in its description of the locations.

That being said,with the Leap Card it's a Tag On only system so the issue is at boarding only.

I would agree with your 10% estimate being on the low side,I would double that.

The current creaking "system" is reliant on Drivers having enough "Local Knowledge" to keep the stages updated,which can and is forgotten in the heat of battle or more likely an unfamiliar driver simply will not know the locations.

Happily,with the AVL system it is possible to definitively place a Bus location at any time in it's journey,which would alow for an individuals boarding point to be identified by the time stamp.

Fix the bloody mess that should'nt have been allowed to develop in the first place sez me !!!! :mad:

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

Fix the bloody mess that should'nt have been allowed to develop in the first place sez me !!!! :mad:

In my VERY strong opinion, the only solution to this mess is flat fares.

The current system is far too confusing and user unfriendly. It is almost like they don't want people using the bus!!

snappieT

I seriously fail to understand why the stage is not automatically set now that there are GPS units onboard every bus.

The_Wrecker

Route 46a - inbound.
Stage 57 Foxrock church to stage 66 UCD, the ticket machine display 'Stillorgan rd' for all these stops.

'NCR' on the northside covers all stops from the Hospital northbound except Hanlon corner.

Route 47 - first stage after Belamine (inbound) is Enniskerry village??

The whole system needs repairing and renaming with landmarks known in 2011.

the groutch

If it's not right, ask the bus driver for a new one with the correct info.
On buses that go past depots (eg 46a) it'd be very easy for there to be a change of drivers, and then you'd have zero comeback.

jamesnp

It's my understanding that the smartcard system is based on GPS location rather than manually set location data, but that the single journey tickets will continue to be manually set with no plans to switch to GPS.

-jp

Victor

the groutch wrote: »

If it's not right, ask the bus driver for a new one with the correct info.

How does one do that with a smartcard?

Dublin Bus seem to be in a lot of denial and are refusing to talk.

http://e-edition.metroherald.ie/2011/11/18/index.html?p=4

[Rail Users Ireland] criticised the fact that Dublin Bus was not offering a discount on its cash fares, but a spokeswoman for the company argued that the maximum fare that can be charged on a Leap Card is €2.20, meaning anyone making longer journeys is making a saving.

Tar.Aldarion

its very annoying that it is set wrong all thr time, should be set auto by gps

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

How does one do that with a smartcard?

It appears that when a Drivers ATM transaction is requested...€1.20,€1.65,€1.85 is carried out a bog standard,ordinary ticket will be issued,which as is currently the situation,should be checked by the passenger to ensure it matches their requirements.

This "test" really is the most bizzarre situation for us to find ourselves in 10 years+ and €48 Million later.

There is now little doubt but that Public Transport Cash Fares are going to see a substantial increase which will then be used to convince the sceptics that a €2.20 base fare for Leap is actually "Good Value".

It's ever more apparent that few of the cereberal and influential people involved at the top end of Irish Public Transport planning actually have the remotest concept of what it's about...they are flying blind.....the sooner the French,Germans,Lithunaians or Martians take over,the better. :mad:

Aard

Good point about Leap. At least with your ticket, you can see that the machine hasn't been set properly. With the 'invisible ticket' nature of the smartcard, you won't know that the driver has given you the wrong ticket until the inspector tells/fines you. Yet another reason for a flat fare.

goingnowhere

But if you look at the top of the drivers machine there is a LED display which shows the fare charged the destination stage name and number. Its always been there, but rarely noticed.

Rock of Gibraltar

I don't understand why we can't have a tag on/tag off system on the buses. The buses in The Netherlands do that and there's no problem. You've got to walk past the reader to get out anyway.
This business of asking the driver to debit your ticket every time you get on the bus is ridiculous, and will do nothing for reducing dwell times you might as well be a cash carrying costumer.

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

It appears that when a Drivers ATM transaction is requested...€1.20,€1.65,€1.85 is carried out a bog standard,ordinary ticket will be issued,which as is currently the situation,should be checked by the passenger to ensure it matches their requirements.

I've tested one annual ITS smartcard and two e-purse smartcards and this is not the way either worked.

It is only if the passenger is paying for a companion is a paper ticket issued.

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

I've tested one annual ITS smartcard and two e-purse smartcards and this is not the way either worked.

It is only if the passenger is paying for a companion is a paper ticket issued.

Apologies Victor...My Bad....you are indeed correct...the paper ticket is indeed a multiple scenario !

All of which reinforces my view that NO further progress is possible until Dublin Bus identify their Fare Stage Points to Customers and Staff alike !!!

markpb

goingnowhere wrote: »

But if you look at the top of the drivers machine there is a LED display which shows the fare charged the destination stage name and number. Its always been there, but rarely noticed.

It's not easily visible to passengers getting on the bus though - it's tilted towards the driver so he can see it.

n97 mini

How does the existing onboard ticket machine know what stage the bus is at?

Does the driver click something every time a stage is reached?

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

This "test" really is the most bizzarre situation for us to find ourselves in 10 years+ and €48 Million later.

There is now little doubt but that Public Transport Cash Fares are going to see a substantial increase which will then be used to convince the sceptics that a €2.20 base fare for Leap is actually "Good Value".

It's ever more apparent that few of the cereberal and influential people involved at the top end of Irish Public Transport planning actually have the remotest concept of what it's about...they are flying blind.....the sooner the French,Germans,Lithunaians or Martians take over,the better. :mad:

I can see a €2 flat fare brought in for cash customers to try to reduce dwell times.

n97 mini wrote: »

How does the existing onboard ticket machine know what stage the bus is at?

Does the driver click something every time a stage is reached?

Yes the driver should press a button to change the fare stages whenever he passes a stage point but often this does not happen or stages are missed and people end up with the wrong tickets.

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

It's not easily visible to passengers getting on the bus though - it's tilted towards the driver so he can see it.

Markpb,I think the post refers to the small two-line display on the ETM which is angled towards the passenger and replicates the display on the remote validator.

N97 mini:Does the driver click something every time a stage is reached?

Yes,the stages have to be updated manually by the driver on each journey,as has been the case since the late 19th Century when Ticket Issuing Machines and Fare Stage Based systems first appeared....nearly 200 years later our knowledge based economy has just spent 1o additional years and €46 Million without even questioning the wisdom of retaining it....

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes the driver should press a button to change the fare stages whenever he passes a stage point but often this does not happen or stages are missed and people end up with the wrong tickets.

Foggy's not wrong here,as particularly with Network Directed routes,there are now a significant number of drivers who have been set loose in unfamiliar territory.

Whilst a degreee of familiarization has been and continues to be available,this does NOT include Stage Locations as the company has spent several years obliterating all visible markings of these,to what end I know not

I am a great believer in starting stuff at the beginning before venturing to further complicate things ! A,B,C...etc etc

We start off well A,B.....but then suddenly skip to X,Y,Z and then head for home !!!!!

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Markpb,I think the post refers to the small two-line display on the ETM which is angled towards the passenger and replicates the display on the remote validator.

This display is illegible in sunlight and also on wet dreary days and also if you are a bit taller or shorter than average:)

They are about as usefull as the current stage fare system

n97 mini

Surely then with the RTPI the onboard GPS system will update the ticket machine with the fare stage?

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Surely then with the RTPI the onboard GPS system will update the ticket machine with the fare stage?

They are two completely different systems.

I don't know of any ticketing system that uses GPS updates.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

They are two completely different systems.

I don't know of any ticketing system that uses GPS updates.

The connection between two different systems is called an interface. It's only a question of someone designing/devising an appropriate interface (with a background in microelectonics and computing I could probably do it myself). It will have a cost, but it will also have a benefit.

KD345

n97 mini wrote: »

The connection between two different systems is called an interface. It's only a question of someone designing/devising an appropriate interface (with a background in microelectonics and computing I could probably do it myself). It will have a cost, but it will also have a benefit.

Or we could just abolish the entire fare stage structure and make it user friendly for both passengers and drivers.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

They are two completely different systems.

I don't know of any ticketing system that uses GPS updates.

The connection between two different systems is called an interface. It's only a question of someone designing/devising an appropriate interface (with a background in microelectonics and computing I could probably do it myself). It will have a cost, but it will also have a benefit.

Indeed but as I say I don't know of any bus company that has a staged fare system that does not require the driver to update the stages which suggests to me that it might be a bit more difficult than you suggest.

As KD345 says the real problem is the actual fare system itself.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Indeed but as I say I don't know of any bus company that has a staged fare system that does not require the driver to update the stages

With the new smart card will the stages when tagging on and off still be the responsibility of the driver?

It would be very easy to send your GPS co-ordinates at tag on and tag off time back to the central system and have it work out how far you travelled, assuming this is an online system? It is an online realtime billing system isn't it?

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

This display is illegible in sunlight and also on wet dreary days and also if you are a bit taller or shorter than average:)

They are about as usefull as the current stage fare system

Ermm...perhaps Foggy,but like much else in our lives it's often up to the individual as to how they approach stuff.

Some of my passengers are very adept at noting the display,and scan it as a normal part of their transaction...others could not give a rats-ass what was being flashed at them and mereley throw in a €2 coin and want to get about their business as fast as they can...Its up to the individual themselves

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

Indeed but as I say I don't know of any bus company that has a staged fare system that does not require the driver to update the stages

With the new smart card will the stages when tagging on and off still be the responsibility of the driver?

It would be very easy to send your GPS co-ordinates at tag on and tag off time back to the central system and have it work out how far you travelled, assuming this is an online system? It is an online realtime billing system isn't it?

The ticket machine is and will be updated by the driver yes.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

With the new smart card will the stages when tagging on and off still be the responsibility of the driver?

Yes,the updating of Stage-Points continues to be manually operated.

However there will be NO requirement to Tag-Off when making a Bus journey,as all of the required calculus will be carried out during one's initial consultation with the Driver...:o

Victor

lxflyer wrote: »

They are two completely different systems.

I don't know of any ticketing system that uses GPS updates.

One of the touted advantages of AVLS was that it would interact with the ticketing system.

n97 mini wrote: »

It would be very easy to send your GPS co-ordinates at tag on and tag off time back to the central system and have it work out how far you travelled, assuming this is an online system? It is an online realtime billing system isn't it?

Not quite. Your card will store your current balance and status. When you validate the ticket, the balance and status are revised by the relevant amount. The validator (on bus or at stop/station), transport operator and the ITS system will talk to each other intermittently (once to several times per day) and do a reconciliation.

If you do a credit card top-up on-line or say a shop terminal or ticket machine is temporarily off-line, your card won't have the correct balance until it interacts with the system. As buses may only interact with the rest of the system a few times per day (typically in or out of garages or similar locations), a situation may exist where you have topped-up on-line, but neither the card not bus know about it for several hours.

Now, as all Dublin Bus vehicles habitually go to a certain, limited number of locations every hour or so, it might be possible to reduce that time to 1-2 hours. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75091293 Another option would be to put a validator at, say, every RTPI-enabled stop as they already have power and data.

n97 mini

The bus is constantly talking to the RTPI about its location, so surely it can also tell the billing system at the same time what cards have tagged on and off?

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

However there will be NO requirement to Tag-Off when making a Bus journey,as all of the required calculus will be carried out during one's initial consultation with the Driver...:o

Are you serious about this? You have to tell the driver where you're going so he/she can manually work out the fare?

markpb

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you serious about this? You have to tell the driver where you're going so he/she can manually work out the fare?

If you tag on to the right (at the existing card validators), it automatically debits €2.20. If you want to pay less, you have to do the same as Translink Belfast and present your card to the driver and inform him of your destination so the correct amount can be debited.

It's just the latest in a long, long list of examples that Dublin Bus management don't realise they're operating a city bus service.

n97 mini

About two thirds of my bus journeys are either €1.20 or €1.60.

Aard

And according to Alek (iirc) about two thirds of *all* journeys are the lower fares too.

Hopefully this is just something they're doing during the test phase.

Victor

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you serious about this? You have to tell the driver where you're going so he/she can manually work out the fare?

Not quite. The driver has to select the fare.

Imagine you are at stage 22. The driver's display says something like:

Current Location St. Stephen's Green
No. Stage Fare
25 O'Connell Street 1.20
29 Smith Street 1.65
35 Main Road 1.85
52 Terminus 2.30

In such a situation, the driver old needs to make sure the current stage is correct.

n97 mini

It kinda takes the Smart out of Smart Card tho, doesn't it!

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

About two thirds of my bus journeys are either €1.20 or €1.60.

You will have a choice of paying the full €2.20 or seeing the driver every journey. 12 years and 50+ million wasted!

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you serious about this? You have to tell the driver where you're going so he/she can manually work out the fare?

Well given this is a test of a card using the existing fare structure I don't know why you are so surprised about this.

In time the fare structure may change, but the card needs to handle both structures.

If it is tag on only how else can you do it?

antoinolachtnai

Victor wrote: »

If you do a credit card top-up on-line or say a shop terminal or ticket machine is temporarily off-line, your card won't have the correct balance until it interacts with the system. As buses may only interact with the rest of the system a few times per day (typically in or out of garages or similar locations), a situation may exist where you have topped-up on-line, but neither the card not bus know about it for several hours.

If you are depending on DB validators, as far as I know, the card and the validator will never know about it. Top-ups are not supported on the DB hardware and it is impossible for them to support it in any meaningful way for the reason you explain. The procedure will be to go to a shop, luas or railway station and have the topup loaded onto your card there. (You will also be able to load the topup when you board an independent public transport operators (because independent public transport operators will have a GPRS data link to keep them updated with their 'whitelist'.

Now, as all Dublin Bus vehicles habitually go to a certain, limited number of locations every hour or so, it might be possible to reduce that time to 1-2 hours. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75091293

In principle, this is possible, but really, the integration that is involved would make it difficult in practice. And it might turn out to be hit-and-miss.

Another option would be to put a validator at, say, every RTPI-enabled stop as they already have power and data.

Possible in principle, though you would have to figure out how to mount the thing. There would also be a planning issue. A roadside topup facility would be development and would require permission. But this would not be the end of the world. It would really only cover quite busy areas where other facilities are likely to be available, not remote areas where the real problem is.

The ultimate solution will be NFC-capable phones, and then rather than an actual physical Leap card, you have a 'virtual' card on your phone, as an app.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

Well given this is a test of a card using the existing fare structure I don't know why you are so surprised about this.

In time the fare structure may change, but the card needs to handle both structures.

If it is tag on only how else can you do it?

The independent public transport operators' solution will allow tag-on, tag-off.

AngryLips

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good man MOH !

Your post highlights the absolute nonsense of Dublin Bus pretending that it has a Fare-Stage system when a large proportion of it's Customers AND Staff have no idea where individual Fare-Stages are located.

If DB checked tickets as often as Luas then this would be a problem, but they don't. In the ten years I've been using the bus I've only had my ticket checked once. It's an entirely hypothetical scenario for everyone.

To be honest, I'm not sure if a flat fare would work. While I'm for it in principle I just don't think you'd see anyone using the bus for journeys within the canals if it was set anything above €1.40. That is a significant number of passengers DB could be losing and it runs counter to the 50c fare that DB introduced when the bus gates were introduced in College Green.

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The independent public transport operators' solution will allow tag-on, tag-off.

That might work on the small number of independent operator services but it is completely impractical on high usage DB services that see high levels of entry / exit all along the route.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you serious about this? You have to tell the driver where you're going so he/she can manually work out the fare?

If you tag on to the right (at the existing card validators), it automatically debits €2.20. If you want to pay less, you have to do the same as Translink Belfast and present your card to the driver and inform him of your destination so the correct amount can be debited.

It's just the latest in a long, long list of examples that Dublin Bus management don't realise they're operating a city bus service.

Well perhaps you can explain how DB make up the shortfall in funding from their fare box? Irrespective of how you view it this IS an issue.

Integrated ticketing is set to cost DB several million a year and no one has yet suggested how this is to be funded?

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

If it is tag on only how else can you do it?

Personally, I would have made the smartcard default to the most popular fare that DB currently have (probably €1.65 or €1.85) and let people who want to pay more or less go to the driver. This means that most passengers will board faster so DB will save money by having buses actually moving instead of sitting at the side of the road.

The test case they've decided on means that either passengers pay significantly more than they should be or they end up talking to the driver and wasting everyones time.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Possible in principle, though you would have to figure out how to mount the thing. There would also be a planning issue. A roadside topup facility would be development and would require permission.

Possibly, but the requirements to get approval for street furniture aren't oppressive, especially as it might only need something no bigger than an A5 sheet of paper on the existing pole. I think there are about 100 DART & Luas stops and 400 Dublin Bus agents. There will be more than 500 RTPI stops. While some will be co-located with Dublin Bus agents, not all will.

But this would not be the end of the world. It would really only cover quite busy areas where other facilities are likely to be available, not remote areas where the real problem is.

I largely agree, but not totally. A lot of shops have cut back on hours and others have closed

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The independent public transport operators' solution will allow tag-on, tag-off.

Is this largely by choice? Few of the private operators operarate services with many stops, where you would constantly have large numbers of people on and off the bus.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Possible in principle, though you would have to figure out how to mount the thing. There would also be a planning issue. A roadside topup facility would be development and would require permission.

Possibly, but the requirements to get approval for street furniture aren't oppressive, especially as it might only need something no bigger than an A5 sheet of paper on the existing pole. I think there are about 100 DART & Luas stops and 400 Dublin Bus agents. There will be more than 500 RTPI stops. While some will be co-located with Dublin Bus agents, not all will.

But this would not be the end of the world. It would really only cover quite busy areas where other facilities are likely to be available, not remote areas where the real problem is.

I largely agree, but not totally. A lot of shops have cut back on hours and others have closed

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The independent public transport operators' solution will allow tag-on, tag-off.

Is this largely by choice? Few of the private operators operarate services with many stops, where you would constantly have large numbers of people on and off the bus.

AngryLips wrote: »

If DB checked tickets as often as Luas then this would be a problem, but they don't. In the ten years I've been using the bus I've only had my ticket checked once. It's an entirely hypothetical scenario for everyone.

Profiling is used - routes believed to have higher levels of evasion are targeted. An Expresso service for example is likely to have very low levels of evasion (flat fare and high percentage of season ticket holders) and would need little checking

To be honest, I'm not sure if a flat fare would work. While I'm for it in principle I just don't think you'd see anyone using the bus for journeys within the canals if it was set anything above €1.40. That is a significant number of passengers DB could be losing and it runs counter to the 50c fare that DB introduced when the bus gates were introduced in College Green.

I think you would be surprised. However, it would be less relevant if more people were encouraged to use pre-paid tickets where the marginal cost of the extra journey was low, whether by daily / weekly capping or use of monthly / annual tickets. If I am likely to use three or more buses per day, I use a multi-day ticket and end up using the bus substantially more than those three times, simply because I don't have to pay any extra money for the trip.

lxflyer wrote: »

That might work on the small number of independent operator services but it is completely impractical on high usage DB services that see high levels of entry / exit all along the route.

It would be more practical if RTPI stops had validators.

Victor

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you can explain how DB make up the shortfall in funding from their fare box? Irrespective of how you view it this IS an issue.

Integrated ticketing is set to cost DB several million a year and no one has yet suggested how this is to be funded?

I think there is a recognised risk and fares may need to be revised, but Dublin Bus simply seem to be burying their heads in the sand.

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you can explain how DB make up the shortfall in funding from their fare box? Irrespective of how you view it this IS an issue.

Integrated ticketing is set to cost DB several million a year and no one has yet suggested how this is to be funded?

I think there is a recognised risk and fares may need to be revised, but Dublin Bus simply seem to be burying their heads in the sand.

It is not a risk Victor - the fact is this IS going to cost DB several million a year to operate and the powers that be are burying their heads in the sand. This is another funding shortfall that DB are just expected to bear which inevitably means something will have to give.

DB have no control over the fare structure - that is up to the NTA and the minister.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

It is not a risk Victor - the fact is this IS going to cost DB several million a year to operate and the powers that be are burying their heads in the sand. This is another funding shortfall that DB are just expected to bear which inevitably means something will have to give.

What costs do DB have other than upgrading their existing smartcard readers? (genuine question) The NTA are operating the entire service. DB are offering exactly the same fares as they are with card and their own pre-paid. They're not offering any discounts (so far) or rebates for using multiple buses (so far). In fact, with the exception that they'll get their money from the NTA instead of their own cashboxes and retailer network, I can see very little that will change for them.

On the other hand, I see several benefits for DB: reduced dwell time which means more efficient use of resources, less cash handling and a better image (the exact change system put a lot of casual users off using the bus).

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Well given this is a test of a card using the existing fare structure I don't know why you are so surprised about this.

Because, as I said, it's not very smart if the driver still has to get involved!

Should be called a Fare Card, or Billing Card etc.