Discuss (Budget + Germany)

Sudsy86

So the Germans have seen our budget before we have!!!!

Another report on Breakingnews yesterday Enda stated the talks between him and Merkel where Frank disucussion...

Yet as per below it is reported the German Lower house of Parliament has been given access to the 2012 budget

The Reuters news agency reported to have seen a document presented to the budget committee of the German lower house of parliament yesterday which highlighted the increase in the top VAT rate to 23%. It is expected to generate €670m extra in the indirect tax.

I doubt the Budget is small enough for the discussion to be Frank - So are the Germans in control?


http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-under-pressure-to-confirm-or-deny-german-access-to-budget-2012-vat-plans-528716.html

mikep

Weren't the VAT increases for 2012 and 2013 agreed in the MOU's??

who_ru

mikep wrote: »

Weren't the VAT increases for 2012 and 2013 agreed in the MOU's??

Yep - FF signed us up to these in a legally binding agreement with the IMF/ECB/EU before they left office.

flanzer

I'm sick of the fcuking Germans now, with the French not far behind...butt the fcuk out

Sudsy86

You dont here alot of feedback from the French these days but if I read correctly earlier there next on the Bailout list after Italy...

There bond rates are nearing 7% also

Edit: http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/markets-in-turmoil-as-borrowing-costs-rise-for-spain-france-and-italy-528698.html

flanzer

The French are 'ok' on their bond yields:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GFRN10:IND

The problem for them is their exposure to the European banks when everything goes tits up

BeeDI

This is just a ruse, to get us all to panik, and rush out before budget day, and spend a pile of dosh;)
Crafty boy, is our deal leader.

Sudsy86

BeeDI wrote: »

This is just a ruse, to get us all to panik, and rush out before budget day, and spend a pile of dosh;)
Crafty boy, is our deal leader.

Well a Ruse would indicate he was only SAYING he was going to increase the VAT to get us to spend but was not in actuall fact gonna increase it...

I wish Paddy Power was taking bets on if he would or not...

HellFireClub

Regardless of who has been shown what, putting up VAT by 2% will finish off this economy.

who_ru

this is a legacy of voting FF for decades - you reap what you sow.

srsly78

Ze germanz should feck off and stop giving us money :mad: Then overnight the problem of our budget deficit would be forcibly solved.

gandalf

Sudsy86 wrote: »

I doubt the Budget is small enough for the discussion to be Frank - So are the Germans in control?


http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-under-pressure-to-confirm-or-deny-german-access-to-budget-2012-vat-plans-528716.html

This is the fruit of the disastrous signing away of our economic sovereignty by the FF led Government.

The current Government should be disgusted with the behaviour of those in Germany with whom this information was shared. They have shown their absolute contempt for Ireland by leaking this information.

Upping VAT to 23% would be an absolute disaster for the economy and would herald the closure of a lot more businesses. Lets hope it doesn't make it into the final draft of the budget.

femur61

who_ru wrote: »

this is a legacy of voting FF for decades - you reap what you sow.

So true, we can't blame FG/L for any reduction in numbers in the PS, baracks closures, or hospitals. The country has been left in an awful mess. The PS sector increased in size during the Bertie years, wages and pensions increased to unsustainable levels. Nothing was built of any benefit to the economy e.g childrens hospital. Now we suffer, the Germans seeing the budget before us is an embarrassment, Noonan left it attached to a document he gave the Trioka. But since we are in deficit 1.3bn every month to fund the country and they are the people giving us money, what harm.

Nothingbetter2d

femur61 wrote: »

So true, we can't blame FG/L for any reduction in numbers in the PS, baracks closures, or hospitals. The country has been left in an awful mess. The PS sector increased in size during the Bertie years, wages and pensions increased to unsustainable levels. Nothing was built of any benefit to the economy e.g childrens hospital. Now we suffer, the Germans seeing the budget before us is an embarrassment, Noonan left it attached to a document he gave the Trioka. But since we are in deficit 1.3bn every month to fund the country and they are the people giving us money, what harm.

noonan needs to resign... he is a security risk

jc84

Germany and France will slowly take over Europe completely, I've said this countless times and if this is true, it just confirms my suspicions

robp

So humiliating.

Boskowski

If true that would be very disrespectful and I hope it's not.
Times are getting way too 'interesting' for my liking.

Nuttzz

enda kenny wrote:

“Let me confirm something to you, the Cabinet has made no decision in regard to the budget which is on December 6th,” he said, referring to the documents specific references to the budget.

Its just over 2 weeks to the budget and he tells us no decisions have been made, Enda either 1. thinks we are fools or 2. or incompetent at running the state

mikep

I assume the budget doc was marked as a draft...
Now is a time for the government to "play hardball" and scrap the 2% VAT hike, maybe hike it by 0.1% each year to comply with the MOU, they could argue that as somene in the bundestag leaked the doc it is their fault that the VAT hike had to be altered due to the clamour at home as a result of the leak...a bundestager apparently said that if Ireland did not fulfill promise made to the troika would be unhelpful...Kenny et al should let Merkel know that the leak has been "unhelpful"

Anyhoo in the end will the vat hikes make a difference as the Germans have two options facing them, defaults on a number of soverign debts to which the German banks are exposed or the ECB becomes the lender of last resort.....

donal2000

How many times has the VAT rate been adjusted in the past few years?

Why is Kenny denying it and it will then go through next month - makes us look like mugs.

Absolutely sick to the teeth of all the negativity and bad things about this country. People are under enough finanical pressure as it is and we have to expect yet another tough budget. Then you read about former Ministers pensions.....makes me sick. It's about time people got out on the streets and protested....enough is enough.

eigrod

femur61 wrote: »

So true, we can't blame FG/L for any reduction in numbers in the PS, baracks closures, or hospitals. The country has been left in an awful mess. The PS sector increased in size during the Bertie years, wages and pensions increased to unsustainable levels. Nothing was built of any benefit to the economy e.g childrens hospital. Now we suffer, the Germans seeing the budget before us is an embarrassment, Noonan left it attached to a document he gave the Trioka. But since we are in deficit 1.3bn every month to fund the country and they are the people giving us money, what harm.

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

noonan needs to resign... he is a security risk

It had nothing to do with Noonan.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1118/budget.html

Budget document 'mistakenly forwarded' by EC

Updated: 08:47, Friday, 18 November 2011

Sources close to the EU/IMF Troika have said the Government's Budget document was mistakenly forwarded by the European Commission to an economic financial committee.

robp wrote: »

So humiliating.

Really ? It's something of nothing but the media love a good "budget leak" story. Happens every year.

bamboozle

femur61 wrote: »

So true, we can't blame FG/L for any reduction in numbers in the PS, baracks closures, or hospitals. The country has been left in an awful mess. The PS sector increased in size during the Bertie years, wages and pensions increased to unsustainable levels. Nothing was built of any benefit to the economy e.g childrens hospital. Now we suffer, the Germans seeing the budget before us is an embarrassment, Noonan left it attached to a document he gave the Trioka. But since we are in deficit 1.3bn every month to fund the country and they are the people giving us money, what harm.

i tend to agree with this, a big issue to the germans and other europeans is when the issue of ireland comes up, they soon figure out that Irish doctors, teachers, nurses, public servants are all paid far more than their german and european counterparts, i can imagine this being hard to accept for them and if we want their money unfortunately we gotta cede to some of their demands.

bottom line is Messers Ahern, Cowan and Neary should be in prison on spike island for economic sabotage to this country.

Floppybits

jc84 wrote: »

Germany and France will slowly take over Europe completely, I've said this countless times and if this is true, it just confirms my suspicions

I'm not a conspiracy nut but this sort of thing does make you wonder if there is some other agenda at work here. I am really starting to wonder about membership of Europe now with the bullying behavior of the Germans. Its not like they have a good record themselves.

I think it is time that Ireland play hard ball and start making demands. If the VAT rate is increased by 2.5% then it will be end of the economy here. People are already not spending in the state and VAT rate of 23% is not going to make people want to spend more. I can see the traffic jams again of people going north for their shopping.

srsly78

Floppybits wrote: »

I am really starting to wonder about membership of Europe now with the bullying behavior of the Germans. Its not like they have a good record themselves.

Bullying us with all that money. The cheek of them expecting to get paid back If the situation was reversed the Irish would just tell everyone to fook off and pay their own bills, coz we are such a great bunch of lads.

Love the subtle ww2 reference too btw.

Scofflaw

Clarification - apparently not a "leak" as such:

Clarification regarding leaked elements of the Irish 2012 draft budget



Elements of the confidential draft programme documents for Ireland were reported in the press yesterday. These documents were not final and were not signed by the Irish government. Decisions on the budget have not been taken yet.

The Commission, as a member of the Troika, has a mandate from the Member States to report on the contents of the quarterly review and share all the relevant information with the Governments. Ireland sees the same information from the Troika about Greece, for example. With this information Member States are in a position to endorse the conclusions and decide to proceed with the disbursement of the next instalment of the financial assistance programme.

In the case of Germany, we understand there is a legal obligation to share this information with the Budget Committee of the Bundestag as it has a central role in deciding on these disbursements. What happened there is the sole responsibility of the German authorities.

Not entirely surprising, I suppose, given that we're all living in each other's pockets at the moment. Also not really anything to do with Germany having any kind of 'special' position...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Floppybits

srsly78 wrote: »

Bullying us with all that money. The cheek of them expecting to get paid back If the situation was reversed the Irish would just tell everyone to fook off and pay their own bills, coz we are such a great bunch of lads.

Love the subtle ww2 reference too btw.

It wasn't subtle. We just ignore history do we?

Yes they are bullying and because we are bending over backwards and taking it they are just pushing more and more and slapping us in the face every chance they get. They took advantage of weak stupid government who just caved in on every single demand and never stood up once. Now look at us, we the current agreement we are never ever going to get out of this regardless of what measures are taken by the government or what measure are dictated to the government by our current rulers.

Floppybits

Scofflaw wrote: »

Clarification - apparently not a "leak" as such:



Not entirely surprising, I suppose, given that we're all living in each other's pockets at the moment. Also not really anything to do with Germany having any kind of 'special' position...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw, Germany do have a 'special' position. Since the introduction of the euro they have been calling shots and even more so they are calling them now. When the German economy was struggling what did the ECB do they lowered interest rates, when the rest of Europe's economies are struggling but Germany's going ok what do the ECB do they raise interest rates, which now have been reversed but yes Germany do hold a special position.

Going Forward

Scofflaw wrote: »

Clarification - apparently not a "leak" as such:



Not entirely surprising, I suppose, given that we're all living in each other's pockets at the moment. Also not really anything to do with Germany having any kind of 'special' position...

cordially,
Scofflaw

They will all as usual cover up for themselves.
Germany certainly has got a "special position" and will make use of the fact.

If this had not "leaked" we would be be none the wiser of what is going on behind our backs, and its insulting to hear Kenny bullsh** any excuse.

Strange how it happened a couple of days after he went over to sit on on Angela's knee.

Very similar to Dempsey and D. Ahern shaking the heads and denouncing any knowledge of an IMF deal.

Lets all get used to the fact that the Puppet Government is being lead by Merkel.

The Commission is known for passing the buck when it suits.

srsly78

Floppybits wrote: »

It wasn't subtle. We just ignore history do we?

Only the bits that don't suit your argument, like hyperinflation.

Tazz T

I'm dying to know how this was leaked. Enda says he has no idea.

If it transpires he does, he should go!

HellFireClub

I don't know how utterly stupid the Irish people have to become, this is like catching your other half in bed with someone and then accepting the explanation that it was a "mistake"...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1118/budget.html

How incomprenehsively dumb has this country become, where these kind of exscuses are issued with the notion that this will do???

Cosmo K

As a german, I can assure you, nobody in Germany gives a flying %&£$, about Irelands 2012 budget. I checked a couple of german websites, couldn't find a single story relating to the issue.

professore

Cosmo K wrote: »

As a german, I can assure you, nobody in Germany gives a flying %&£$, about Irelands 2012 budget. I checked a couple of german websites, couldn't find a single story relating to the issue.

Considering Wolfgang Schaeuble said the following, it is clear that he only cares about Germany, which is fair enough, this has been affecting the peripheral economies already for years now:

BERLIN (MNI) - Germany's Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble warned on Thursday of the risk of contagion to the real economy from the Eurozone debt crisis.

"Unfortunately, there are signs of that," Schaeuble said in a speech at an insurance industry conference here. "We are witnessing continued rising uncertainties among market participants."

Maura74

The way I see it is Ireland borrowed a lot of money to buy large houses, cars, holiday’s large salaries with the top echelon taking the biggest shares in salaries and pensions.
Therefore, when you borrow money from a bank and cannot pay it back then the bank will want to see how you are spending their money in order that you are able to pay them back.

In this case it is Germany that is owed the money so it follows that they want to see what Ireland is spending their money on and that it is well spent to avoid Ireland getting into problems again.

gandalf

Maura to be fair it is a two way street.

The people who lent the money do have an obligation to ensure those it gave the money had the proper means to repay it. It is obvious that this did not happen looking at the mess here, in Spain, in Portugal and most of all in Greece.

jester77

Cosmo K wrote: »

As a german, I can assure you, nobody in Germany gives a flying %&£$, about Irelands 2012 budget. I checked a couple of german websites, couldn't find a single story relating to the issue.

Very true, even Kenny's visit this week didn't make it onto any of the news broadcasts. Germany have much bigger issues to be worrying about.

Sudsy86

Maura74 wrote: »

The way I see it is Ireland borrowed a lot of money to buy large houses, cars, holiday’s large salaries with the top echelon taking the biggest shares in salaries and pensions.
Therefore, when you borrow money from a bank and cannot pay it back then the bank will want to see how you are spending their money in order that you are able to pay them back.

In this case it is Germany that is owed the money so it follows that they want to see what Ireland is spending their money on and that it is well spent to avoid Ireland getting into problems again.

In keeping with your loan topic...Would you not agree that if you where speaking with the Bank about increasing the payment ammount you would discuss this with your partner before you give the go ahead...

I think it is very unfair that they discuss the ecomony more openly with Germany than they do there own people...At the end of the day it is us that pay the banks back...The governement only decide what and how much we pay back...

Another Public service representive has been given nearly 300k for retiring at 53 next year, cant find the link to add at the moment but she decided to be nice and waive her remuneration of 125k...

It would take me 4years to earn that alone before tax, yes its nice of her to waive it but come on really your promised 300k+ for retiring 12 years before retirement age...

There was a post in another thread saying atleast not allwed them to tae there pention untill they reach retirement age and this should be something that is concidered...

jank

I think we need to take a step back from this and stop the usual beating ourselves up over this issue. OK it wasn't pleasant but nobody really gives a ****, it was not headline news in other countries. It is just a new reality settling in for some people. It will be like this for the next year or two.

_Kaiser_

So the decision isn't final then eh?.. expect VAT to increase by 1-1.5% then and watch as we all breathe a sign of relief cause it wasn't as bad as expected :rolleyes:

Maura74

gandalf wrote: »

Maura to be fair it is a two way street.

The people who lent the money do have an obligation to ensure those it gave the money had the proper means to repay it. It is obvious that this did not happen looking at the mess here, in Spain, in Portugal and most of all in Greece.

But, was Greece truthful about their accounts before they went into the EU, they can still retire there at the age of 50 when other countries employees have to work for a further 10 years to get the same privilege . Also as far as I can remember Ireland got warnings from EU about their spending over the years as well. :mad:

Cian92

http://www.thejournal.ie/revealed-governments-leaked-plans-for-irelands-austerity-budgets-282556-Nov2011/?utm_source=facebook

a firm commitment that domestic water charges will be introduced by the end of 2013
plans to broaden the income tax base in 2013, along with increases in excise duty and other indirect taxes
plans to cut social welfare spending and the public payroll even further in 2013
a government agreement to prepare a draft programme for selling state assets, to be discussed with the Troika by the end of this year
a request from Michael Noonan and Patrick Honohan to ‘frontload’ the bailout loans for 2012 – with deductions from the second, third and fourth instalments to make up for an extra-large first instalment
an update to the EU-IMF deal outlining that ”any unplanned revenues must be allocated to debt reduction“
a commitment to “initial resolution funding” of €250m for Ireland’s credit unions
further commitments to open up ‘sheltered sectors’ like pharmacies, GPs and legal services

Just in from the Journal (they got a copy of the documents revealed to the German Parliment)... Looks like they were told everything.

Tora Bora

Cian92 wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/revealed-governments-leaked-plans-for-irelands-austerity-budgets-282556-Nov2011/?utm_source=facebook




Just in from the Journal (they got a copy of the documents revealed to the German Parliment)... Looks like they were told everything.

Excise duty going up. Must stock up on 10 years of booze:cool:

Bullseye1

What is unbelievable is that the government is sharing these proposals with foreign governments but not to it's own people who elected them nor to the other members in the Dail.

Scofflaw

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What is unbelievable is that the government is sharing these proposals with foreign governments but not to it's own people who elected them nor to the other members in the Dail.

Again, unfortunately, it's not particularly strange. We provide information about upcoming budgets to the countries providing the funding, so that they can decide whether to continue providing funding or not. Obviously, that information has to be provided in advance of the budget, because if the countries providing the funding aren't happy with the proposed budget, they need to say so before the budget is final.

It's not enjoyable, but it's logical - Ireland is in receivership, and information about proposed spending/taxation goes to the receivers before anyone else.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bullseye1

I'm not against the information being provided to the people who are currently writing the cheques but if this government expects to bring the country with them they should show us more respect and lay it all out on the table. We the people will be responsible for paying these loans back. We have a say.

sceptic100

When everyone blames fianna fáil for the mess we're in, what were all the other main parties doing at the time , I didn't see them protesting too much , but probably reaping the rewards like the rest.
I'd say they would've done the same and i'm fed up with them reminding us how bad the last government did everytime they are asked a question.

If the other parties seen how wreckless Fianna fáil and the banks were , WHY did the not put a stop to it and tell the people of the nation??

Sudsy86

That's where you are wrong do, we dont have a say...

We voted them in, unless we vote them back out then what they say is in the best interest of the ppl who voted them in...

Scofflaw

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm not against the information being provided to the people who are currently writing the cheques but if this government expects to bring the country with them they should show us more respect and lay it all out on the table. We the people will be responsible for paying these loans back. We have a say.

A say in the Budget? Not practically speaking, at least in advance, or in detail. We have a democratic input in the usual way - unpopular budgets make the government less popular.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Going Forward

The recent events have clearly shown that there is no need for a further new Treaty referendum regarding national budgetary controls and who is entitled to see what, and dictate what to whom.

nesf

Going Forward wrote: »

The recent events have clearly shown that there is no need for a further new Treaty referendum regarding national budgetary controls and who is entitled to see what, and dictate what to whom.

Got **** all to do with Treaties and everything to do with us being bailed out and those bailing us out having a say in our Budgets during the time we're borrowing money from them. Comes with the territory unfortunately, like it or lump it.

KINGVictor

Scofflaw wrote: »

Again, unfortunately, it's not particularly strange. We provide information about upcoming budgets to the countries providing the funding, so that they can decide whether to continue providing funding or not. Obviously, that information has to be provided in advance of the budget, because if the countries providing the funding aren't happy with the proposed budget, they need to say so before the budget is final.

It's not enjoyable, but it's logical - Ireland is in receivership, and information about proposed spending/taxation goes to the receivers before anyone else.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sorry Scoff, I disagree with you. I concur in a sense that Ireland been recipients of German funds are expected to show steps been taken to meet her debt obligations and how they intend to meet the set criteria for further payments. However, showing the actual details of budget proposals/intentions to the German parliament before the Dail is a bit too far.

If I am going to be honest, the way the EU (which is led by the Franco-Geramn axis) is dealing with crises is just basically a time bomb waiting to explode. That aside, the EU commission has come out today to acknowledege that the German authorities were at fault in leaking this documents to the press and as far as I know I have not heard any response from Germany, it seems very contrived.


Even if we go by your position that Ireland as the debtor reporting to her creditor,still, I feel it is a total of breach of trust and confidentiality by the Germans.