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Atheism causes creationism
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Er, right now your argument is being discredited by examples, such as Scientology.
I am unfortunately almost certain that despite this you will not re-assess this naive argument, because in actuality you don't really care about the rationality of this argument, you just want to believe in Christianity.
So given you are doing this why in the world would you think the early Christians would have cared at all that others were discrediting their faith?
They would have done exactly what you are doing now, simply ignored this.
On the contrary Zombrex, I'm perfectly interest and willing to debate on the merits of rationality, I love rational thinking
I'm sure you can do better than comparing Scientology to Christianity. Anyone can confirm that the motivation for Scientology was personal enrichment and self-aggrandising. L Ron Hubbard was clearly a liar who wanted to get rich.
Wouldn't you say that crucifixion is a fairly humiliating death? Wouldn't you say that if his followers were clearly making it up, that they might want to come up with something that would portray Christ in a more positive light? Why didn't He cleverly evade the Romans and escape through the power of God? Wouldn't that make for a more 'glorious' end? More of a 'take that, you godless heathens'?
You also have to look at how the disciples are portrayed in the Gospels - as fairly weak, spineless, un-courageous men who would sell you down the river one minute (e.g. Peter, who had seen the miracles Christ performed first-hand, but still denied Him at the critical juncture - but who then went on to evangelise), but then as people who, following the resurrection, became strong proponents of the faith.
Why would they be portrayed as weak men at all? Your counter-argument would probably be that the resurrection is what caused them to become bold preachers, but that since the resurrection itself is 'made up', that this means nothing. But again, why portray yourself as anything other than glorious if your motivation is self-glorification?0 -
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Because people tend to believe things that are written down?
Look at the Book of Mormon which is known to be a complete fake on every possible level, and Joseph Smith who was a convicted conman, and by all reports a sex-maniac too, and that the early militant mormons came close to instigating civil war in the USA, yet somehow people have forgotten all of that, and that the mormon religion is now one of the fastest growing religions in the USA?
Explain that how that can happen, if it's well-known and easily-found!
Well great example actually. The only problem is that your example provides far more backing for the fact that lots of people are truly gullible, than it does for your assertion that Christianity is a 'lie'. I know next to nothing about Mormonism, but I assume that its core values are similar to Christianity (forgiveness, love, forsaking sin). Therefore, a cursory look at the facts of Joseph Smith expose it as a sham.
Thus reflecting moreso on its adherents, than in providing support for rejecting Christianity, no?
Hitler wrote a book in prison. Lots of people believed in Hitler. Can we confirm that Hitler's motivations were based on hatred? Nobody could argue otherwise.
Lots of people believe darts is a 'sport'. Can we confirm, looking at the pot-bellys and lack of movement, that it can't really fit into that category?
See how I'm using rational analysis?
You also seem to be forgetting that the early Christians wrote nothing down! Few of them could even read, let alone write.
If you see a belief system such as Mormonism or Scientology and doubt its truth, take a look at their founders. Hubbard and Smith have been clearly outed as charlatans who clearly sought worldly riches (sex, money, power etc). Jesus ended up being tortured and murdered and sure didn't seem to be rich in His day. He didn't advocate violence over his enemies (Islam, anyone?), and sure didn't seem all that keen to let His power be known throughout the land. In fact, when curing people of diseases He asked them to keep it to themselves and not to let people know of it. Is that the hallmark of someone who is in it for the glory?0 -
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Are you being serious?
I'm pointing out that it's really easy to get people to believe lies, particularly when religion is used.
Can you accept this point?
Not only do I accept it, I was backing your point up in my post below? Are we both speaking English here?
I'm saying that Hitler wrote a book, and expounded beliefs that tricked millions? Similar to Joseph Smith and Hubbard.
What I'm asking you to do is examine the motivations behind the author of these beliefs. Can you respond to the last paragraph in my last post?0 -
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Post below? I'd have said "above". And you certainly used the word "rational" in a sense I've never comr across. Perhaps we're not speaking the same language after all.Not only do I accept it, I was backing your point up in my post below? Are we both speaking English here?
I didn't address it because it's irrelevant. Do you know what motivated Jesus? Do you have anything he wrote himself? Or are you relying on second-hand accounts from other people?What I'm asking you to do is examine the motivations behind the author of these beliefs. Can you respond to the last paragraph in my last post?
It's quite simple really. People write books. Some of these books aggrandize certain ideas and certain people. Other people believe these books pretty much uncritically. Mormons, scientologists, jim-jonesers and all the rest of them ignore the early history of their religious movement, just as they ignore rational analysis in justifying their beliefs to themselves and so on.
Just the same as you do.
It really isn't that hard to follow.0 -
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Not only do I accept it, I was backing your point up in my post below? Are we both speaking English here?
I'm saying that Hitler wrote a book, and expounded beliefs that tricked millions? Similar to Joseph Smith and Hubbard.
What I'm asking you to do is examine the motivations behind the author of these beliefs. Can you respond to the last paragraph in my last post?
But was Jesus the author of these beliefs, or the inspiration for them? I bet a man named Jesus did live then, did some good things, had many followers, and died on a cross. Yet do you not think that it's possible that other people may have taken those true things, and exaggerated them, making Jesus into the Son of God, healing the sick, walking on water etc etc. After all, like you said yourself, the gospels were written after Jesus' death, and "the early Christians wrote nothing down! Few of them could even read, let alone write." So when the Bible says "Jesus said.....", how do we know that's what Jesus said?
Take The Last Temptation of Christ as an example. Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights in the desert, resisted temptation by the devil, and was cared for by the angels at the end. Now, who told that story? Jesus was alone in the desert for 40 days and night, so the only person who could have known what was said and what happened, was Jesus. Either Jesus told the disciples (who had no way to verify the story), Jesus lied to the disciples, or someone made it up after Jesus' death.0
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