Public Sector 'Reform' Report due out today

bobbysands81

Wonder will it contain any surprises?

So far we more or less know that:

Numbers in Public Sector are way down from 2008 and are going to continue to fall.

The FF White Elephant vote getter of decentralisation is to be finally knocked on the head in SOME places, be reviewed in others and continued as planned in others.

More shared services.

More out-sourcing of non-core work.

Continue to do more with less.

Annual Leave to be pared back in a tiny fraction of workers (though with the headlines we're seeing about this you'd swear all workers are on 35 days AL.)

Pension changes for some new entrants.

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Wonder will it contain any surprises?

So far we more or less know that:

Numbers in Public Sector are way down from 2008 and are going to continue to fall.

The FF White Elephant vote getter of decentralisation is to be finally knocked on the head in SOME places, be reviewed in others and continued as planned in others.

More shared services.

More out-sourcing of non-core work.

Continue to do more with less.

Annual Leave to be pared back in a tiny fraction of workers (though with the headlines we're seeing about this you'd swear all workers are on 35 days AL.)

Pension changes for some new entrants.

Blank pages all the way

Sempai

They make changes to the public sector but still look after themselves according to this article in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2060899/As-Ireland-braces-budget-cuts-politicians-cut-secret-deal-3million-euro-year-pay-rise.html

bobbysands81

fliball123 wrote: »

Blank pages all the way

Damned when we do and damned when we don't.

Riskymove

Sempai wrote: »

They make changes to the public sector but still look after themselves according to this article in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2060899/As-Ireland-braces-budget-cuts-politicians-cut-secret-deal-3million-euro-year-pay-rise.html

ah the Daily Mail, you have to love the neck of their Headline writers

The issue is not secret...and there's no payrise

Damned when we do and damned when we don't.

what do you expect from boards?

Son Of A Vidic

One thing you can be certain of, they will get their focus and priorities wrong.

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Damned when we do and damned when we don't.

Sorry bobby I take that back it was an attempt at humour..I hope there are good savings shown....

fliball123

Has anyone any fore knowledge as to what this report contains...Boardies are usually in the know?

stargazer 68

While I agree with cutting the numbers - lots of deadwood - the numbers need to be cut in the right areas. Last years 'redundancy' package for the HSE left departments really short staffed as it was rushed through and not thought about or managed properly. 35 days hols - I wish!! :eek:

Riskymove

the announcemnts are currently being streamed live

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/11/live-stream-launch-of-publication-public-service-reform/?cat=3

fliball123

Riskymove wrote: »

the announcemnts are currently being streamed live

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/11/live-stream-launch-of-publication-public-service-reform/?cat=3

Cheers Risky

Riskymove

speaking note

http://per.gov.ie/2011/11/17/public-service-reform-announcements-speaking-note-for-minister-for-public-expenditure-and-reform-brendan-howlin-t-d/

and the full plan

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Public-Service-Reform-pdf.pdf

cursai

I guarantee they wont be cutting my days off. Any leave they take will be supplemented by sick days and a sleeping blanket. Some people may say thats a terrible attitude but thats what shift workers will do.

amen

Page 25 Section 9.4.i Does anyone know where I can find the "Databank" website?

spank_inferno

cursai wrote: »

I guarantee they wont be cutting my days off. Any leave they take will be supplemented by sick days and a sleeping blanket. Some people may say thats a terrible attitude but thats what shift workers will do.

I feel honoured to pay for your lifestyle.

mikep

Page 46 of the report states this: 12.4 Introduce policies to deal with cases of underperformance, which undermines staff motivation and public confidence.

It goes on to list how is will do this in the civil service and other sectors...

My question is does the civil service include those working under the remit of local authorities, or does the reference to other sectors include them??

RobbieTheRobber

mikep wrote: »

Page 46 of the report states this: 12.4 Introduce policies to deal with cases of underperformance, which undermines staff motivation and public confidence.

It goes on to list how is will do this in the civil service and other sectors...

My question is does the civil service include those working under the remit of local authorities, or does the reference to other sectors include them??

Local authorities are not under the remit of the civil service and the other sectors would include them.

coup1917

cursai wrote: »

I guarantee they wont be cutting my days off. Any leave they take will be supplemented by sick days and a sleeping blanket. Some people may say thats a terrible attitude but thats what shift workers will do.

If they haven't said already, they are lucky to have you...:rolleyes:

The cheek of them trying to cut your hols down to 32 days..!! Sure thats only 6 weeks annual leave...
Sure you can always take some more sickies to replace your festival days.....

And that, as they will say, was how the public sector collapsed in Ireland......

wicorthered

cursai wrote: »

I guarantee they wont be cutting my days off. Any leave they take will be supplemented by sick days and a sleeping blanket. Some people may say thats a terrible attitude but thats what shift workers will do.

Shocking!! Attitudes like this are the reason the public have such a negative view on the public service. If sick days rise after this, the PS will deserve a pay cut. Every effort is being made to cut costs without touching pay. Not playing ball will put a top to that!

RobbieTheRobber

cursai wrote: »

I guarantee they wont be cutting my days off. Any leave they take will be supplemented by sick days and a sleeping blanket. Some people may say thats a terrible attitude but thats what shift workers will do.

I dont even believe your a public servant, I also believe its very unlikely you will be coming back to this thread!

The only reason for a post like this, would be an attempt to incite post like the below and spiral thsi thread out of control! :rolleyes:

coup1917 wrote: »

If they haven't said already, they are lucky to have you...:rolleyes:

The cheek of them trying to cut your hols down to 32 days..!! Sure thats only 6 weeks annual leave...
Sure you can always take some more sickies to replace your festival days.....

And that, as they will say, was how the public sector collapsed in Ireland......

wicorthered wrote: »

Shocking!! Attitudes like this are the reason the public have such a negative view on the public service. If sick days rise after this, the PS will deserve a pay cut. Every effort is being made to cut costs without touching pay. Not playing ball will put a top to that!

Let me say as a public servant who has taken just 3 sick days not covered by doctors certs over the past 7 years that I would hope this is not the attitude of my colleagues.

I also know that policies have been already put in place in the civil service to deal with sick leave abuses!

bamboozle

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I dont even believe your a public servant, I also believe its very unlikely you will be coming back to this thread!

The only reason for a post like this, would be an attempt to incite post like the below and spiral thsi thread out of control! :rolleyes:






Let me say as a public servant who has taken just 3 sick days not covered by doctors certs over the past 7 years that I would hope this is not the attitude of my colleagues.

I also know that policies have been already put in place in the civil service to deal with sick leave abuses!

dare i ask how many certified sick day's you've taken?
Being sick is being sick, certified or uncertified, you're either at work or not, unfortunately for you and other in the public sector with 'good' attendence there are many others who take the p1ss.

Riskymove

Jaysus, can people stop feeding the obvious trolling

some of ye are happy to take such sh*t stirring as gospel when it suits but never take anything positive from PS posters at face value

The thread is, as usual, heading off-topic and into pages of pointless, personalised stuff

mikep

How come the civil service are mentioned specifically in these situations? Are they not all parts of the public service??

Just wondering....

cursai

spank_inferno wrote: »

I feel honoured to pay for your lifestyle.

You ve got it wrong I pay with my health for yours.thats the point.

Dodge

coup1917 wrote: »

The cheek of them trying to cut your hols down to 32 days..!!

The vast, vast, vast majority of public servants are on far less than 32 days.

In fact NOBODY in the civil service has that many
www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circ272003.rtf

I'd imagine the people on 40 days wouldn't even reach three figures

bobbysands81

coup1917 wrote: »

If they haven't said already, they are lucky to have you...:rolleyes:

The cheek of them trying to cut your hols down to 32 days..!! Sure thats only 6 weeks annual leave...
Sure you can always take some more sickies to replace your festival days.....

And that, as they will say, was how the public sector collapsed in Ireland......

The annoying thing about the media is that they report things such as excessive annual leave and people who are gullable think that the entire Civil Service get these fantastical holiday.

The amount of people that will have leave reduced will be negligable as there are so few of them that get those days. To the best of my knowledge no Civil Servant gets more than 33 days and anyone who is at such a top grade where they get that many would be expected to work on days off anyway.

As for Festival Days... never heard even ONE Civil Servant get one of these.

bobbysands81

wicorthered wrote: »

Shocking!! Attitudes like this are the reason the public have such a negative view on the public service. If sick days rise after this, the PS will deserve a pay cut. Every effort is being made to cut costs without touching pay. Not playing ball will put a top to that!

Were you able to say that whilst keeping a straight face?

RobbieTheRobber

bamboozle wrote: »

dare i ask how many certified sick day's you've taken?
Being sick is being sick, certified or uncertified, you're either at work or not, unfortunately for you and other in the public sector with 'good' attendence there are many others who take the p1ss.

Well if you must, I took 20 certified sick days in 2001 whilst i had my appendix removed, the doctor advised additonal leave i felt fine and was bored of sitting at home and returned to work.

Since 2001 i have taken 3 days certified sick leave in one period when i suffered from an illness.

But since im not the only person in the public sector I can only think that prying into my sick leave would only be done with devious intent and perhaps the hopes of being able to direct abuse at me and certainly not with a view to discussing todays press conference + plus release of documents pertaining to reform within the public sector(thats the public sector not just me:rolleyes:).

bobbysands81

mikep wrote: »

How come the civil service are mentioned specifically in these situations? Are they not all parts of the public service??

Just wondering....

Civil Service represent approx 10% of the entire public service... but for some reason get beaten with the stick far more than the rest of the public service even though our pay, terms and conditions are considered lower than the rest of the public service.

Our public service is approx 300k, Civil Servants make up circa 33k. Over two thirds of public servants work in healthcare and education.

Benny_Cake

bobbysands81 wrote: »

The annoying thing about the media is that they report things such as excessive annual leave and people who are gullable think that the entire Civil Service get these fantastical holiday.

The amount of people that will have leave reduced will be negligable as there are so few of them that get those days. To the best of my knowledge no Civil Servant gets more than 33 days and anyone who is at such a top grade where they get that many would be expected to work on days off anyway.

As for Festival Days... never heard even ONE Civil Servant get one of these.

Indeed,festival days only exist in some local authorities - not in the civil service.

cursai

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I dont even believe your a public servant, I also believe its very unlikely you will be coming back to this thread!

The only reason for a post like this, would be an attempt to incite post like the below and spiral thsi thread out of control! :rolleyes:


Let me say as a public servant who has taken just 3 sick days not covered by doctors certs over the past 7 years that I would hope this is not the attitude of my colleagues.

I also know that policies have been already put in place in the civil service to deal with sick leave abuses!

I've 0 sick days in five years. And no uncertified (dos) days. The point im trying to make is shift workers not nine to fivers will naturally abuse these changes. 6 weeks leave is a lot less meaningful to people with kids who work their hours 365 days a year and 24/7 than it is too civil servants working nine to five with bank holidays of f. A while less meaningful which is why its essential to hold onto it. I've never even heard of a festival or race day.

bobbysands81

bamboozle wrote: »

dare i ask how many certified sick day's you've taken?
Being sick is being sick, certified or uncertified, you're either at work or not, unfortunately for you and other in the public sector with 'good' attendence there are many others who take the p1ss.

Civil Servants, on average, take 1.1 uncertified sick days a year, that is a negligable amount of uncertified sick days. This stat points to the fact that in general there is not an issue regarding uncertified sick leave amongst the 33k Civil Servants in the state.

Also, over 40% of Civil Servants take absolutely no sick leave in a year.

Dodge

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Civil Service represent approx 10% of the entire public service... but for some reason get beaten with the stick far more than the rest of the public service even though our pay, terms and conditions are considered lower than the rest of the public service

In terms of annual leave, if they were to standardise it, it would proabably see Civil servants receive an increase...

bobbysands81

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Indeed,festival days only exist in some local authorities - not in the civil service.

By the way I'd imagine that the likes of IBEC are very happy that festival days do actually occur as folk spend a fortune on these days thus keeping their members happy.

Riskymove

Dodge wrote: »

The vast, vast, vast majority of public servants are on far less than 32 days.

true

In fact NOBODY in the civil service has that many
www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circ272003.rtf

tbf that is wrong

in doing away with privilege days, the Government ended up giving 2 days extra leave to staff so those with 31 on that list currently have 33

but will now go back to 32 and 30 in future

I'd imagine the people on 40 days wouldn't even reach three figures

again true

I think it was only County Managers? but not sure

Riskymove

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Indeed,festival days only exist in some local authorities - not in the civil service.

I've known some to close for Holy Days

Dodge

Riskymove wrote: »

true



tbf that is wrong

in doing away with privilege days, the Government ended up giving 2 days extra leave to staff so those with 31 on that list currently have 33

but will now go back to 32 and 30 in future

The privilige days 'rebate' only applied to certain staff
www.pseu.ie/circulars/bs08510.doc

Staff with a maximum of 30/31 days annual leave will have no addition to their annual leave.

Staff on attaining 25 days or more annual leave and up to and including a maximum of 29 days annual leave will have one day added to their normal leave entitlement which will be subject to the normal rules relating to the taking of annual leave

Staff with a maximum of 24 days annual leave or less will have two days added to their normal leave entitlement which will be subject to the normal rules relating to the taking of annual leave

So it is still fair to say that no Civil servant has more than 31 days annual leave

Riskymove

Dodge wrote: »

The privilige days 'rebate' only applied to certain staff
www.pseu.ie/circulars/bs08510.doc


So it is still fair to say that no Civil servant has more than 31 days annual leave

look, we dont need to fall out!!:D

that circular you posted is old, subsequent to that there was a Labour court case and all staff ended up getting the two days, so that's reality, no big deal

wicorthered

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Were you able to say that whilst keeping a straight face?

I sure was. It would be very easy for the government to announce another 5% paycut and blame the IMF/EU. That would provide substantial savings without having to put in too much effort.

For the record I wouldn't be in favour of any further payouts, I think they've gone far enough.

cyclopath2001

Scrapping 'decentralisation' and rationalising the language commissioner are two good realistic rollbacks of madly expensive Fianna Fail policies.

The next problem will be how to re-assign the staff scattered all over the country when FF was bestowing quangos on its faithful towns.

Icepick

This is not a reform.
It's just a slight adjustment from the madness that is the Tiger-era PS.

twowheelsonly

I just had a quick look through the paper on this..
What a load of Gobbledegook!!!

The only thing new in it (and most of it is not even that new ) is the section on Rationalisation of State Agencies.

The rest of it is basically a continuance of the Croke Park agreement and the changes that proposed in any case.
The worrying thing for me is that there is an awful lot of talk in the first two sections of Appointments to this and that to examine this and that, half of which are things that have been 'examined' time and time again. More reports in other words.

The whole of the first two sections is taken up with words of wisdom such as the following - taken totally at random -

Implement a phased approach to capturing baseline measurements across the Public Service.
For example, baselining within the Civil Service to be captured by Q3 2012. In addition, phase
the capture of baseline measurements in line with the implementation of relevant major projects
e.g. HR Shared Services (Civil Service). Where appropriate, supplement quantitative
performance measures with available qualitative information.

So that sorts that out anyway!! :rolleyes:

To be fair there are a couple of worthwhile initiatives there but overall it's much ado about nothing.

Another beauty is this..

10.1 Assess the merits of adopting a government level performance management system, and if it
is beneficial, roll out across the Public Service

Surprise surprise lads - it already exists. It's known as PMDS and generally speaking it doesn't work. Certainly in my sector it doesn't, where we may not see people for weeks at a time due to alternating shifts etc, have not been given facilities to sit down with staff to go through it, are not allocated specific time to do it and are just too damn busy and short staffed to do it anyway.

bobbysands81

twowheelsonly wrote: »

I just had a quick look through the paper on this..
What a load of Gobbledegook!!!

The only thing new in it (and most of it is not even that new ) is the section on Rationalisation of State Agencies.

The rest of it is basically a continuance of the Croke Park agreement and the changes that proposed in any case.
The worrying thing for me is that there is an awful lot of talk in the first two sections of Appointments to this and that to examine this and that, half of which are things that have been 'examined' time and time again. More reports in other words.

The whole of the first two sections is taken up with words of wisdom such as the following - taken totally at random -



So that sorts that out anyway!! :rolleyes:

To be fair there are a couple of worthwhile initiatives there but overall it's much ado about nothing.

Another beauty is this..



Surprise surprise lads - it already exists. It's known as PMDS and generally speaking it doesn't work. Certainly in my sector it doesn't, where we may not see people for weeks at a time due to alternating shifts etc, have not been given facilities to sit down with staff to go through it, are not allocated specific time to do it and are just too damn busy and short staffed to do it anyway.

Fully agree. Another lost opportunity and another stick to beat us with.

This document is a feckin embarrassment. As usual, we'll all do what's expected of us but this could have gone so much further.

Valmont

More reforms? The bottom line is the same: it still costs too much!

Godge

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Surprise surprise lads - it already exists. It's known as PMDS and generally speaking it doesn't work. Certainly in my sector it doesn't, where we may not see people for weeks at a time due to alternating shifts etc, have not been given facilities to sit down with staff to go through it, are not allocated specific time to do it and are just too damn busy and short staffed to do it anyway.

I just cannot understand the focus on PMDS. It costs a lot of time and money to implement, particularly given the unwieldy systems agreed with the unions. At the same time, the potential for savings is minimal. Even if 10% are denied an increment, the savings are small. Someone has said that increments cost €250m (which I don't accept) but that would mean for all the hassle of PMDS everywhere across the public sector, it could save €25m. Is that enough?

Now I think it is important at a higher management level but not generally where people are working together doing mostly the same thing.

woodoo

Godge wrote: »

I just cannot understand the focus on PMDS. It costs a lot of time and money to implement, particularly given the unwieldy systems agreed with the unions. At the same time, the potential for savings is minimal. Even if 10% are denied an increment, the savings are small. Someone has said that increments cost €250m (which I don't accept) but that would mean for all the hassle of PMDS everywhere across the public sector, it could save €25m. Is that enough?

Now I think it is important at a higher management level but not generally where people are working together doing mostly the same thing.

250 million minus tax at least. We could also take USC out too.

Each year we have people leaving and they happen to be at the top of the incremental scale. All others are coming up behind. Nobody is better paid than those leaving at the top. There are savings there. So i don't buy into the 250 million figure either. Its offset by those leaving.

thebman

Godge wrote: »

I just cannot understand the focus on PMDS. It costs a lot of time and money to implement, particularly given the unwieldy systems agreed with the unions. At the same time, the potential for savings is minimal. Even if 10% are denied an increment, the savings are small. Someone has said that increments cost €250m (which I don't accept) but that would mean for all the hassle of PMDS everywhere across the public sector, it could save €25m. Is that enough?

Now I think it is important at a higher management level but not generally where people are working together doing mostly the same thing.

Only about 10% should be getting increments annually. It is supposed to be a reward for top performers surely?

If everyone is regarded as a top performer than the system is broken because everyone cannot be a top performer.

ardmacha

Only about 10% should be getting increments annually. It is supposed to be a reward for top performers surely?

Increments are recognition of experience, not a reward for top performers.
In pretty much every career people get more salary after a few years than when they enter. The concept of paying people in the PS the same salary for their entire career does not make sense.

Dodge

The scales are pretty small too. Most grades have maybe 6-10 points. And once you reach that, that's it, no more increments. So someone in the same grade for 15 years, doesn't get one

marknjb

as far as i know teachers get increments every year up to 26 years regardless of how good they are is this not due reform

Good loser

ardmacha wrote: »

Increments are recognition of experience, not a reward for top performers.
In pretty much every career people get more salary after a few years than when they enter. The concept of paying people in the PS the same salary for their entire career does not make sense.

But surely only in careers where the company is solvent.

What was okay even three years ago is no longer okay.

Imo increments should be abolished - call it a suspension.

Remember inflation has fallen by about 4% since 2008.