Top earners from CAP payments

Dazzler88

http://irishfarming.ie/2009/05/06/top-earners-from-cap-payments/
Not sure what acreage these guys have or what there farm enterprise is but they seem to be doing all right.

Im going to get slatted for posting that link.:p

Dazzler88

You'll probably recognise no.1 Tom Browne.He runs the biggest Dairy Herd in Ireland,he featured on TV3's programme "A Year on the Land".

Not a bit wonder he is the biggest with a Single Farm Payment of that size.

sh1tstirrer

Dazzler88 wrote: »

You'll probably recognise no.1 Tom Browne.He runs the biggest Dairy Herd in Ireland,he featured on TV3's programme "A Year on the Land".

Not a bit wonder he is the biggest with a Single Farm Payment of that size.

I thought there was a limit to the amount any one farmer could get. Around 150000 there about.

Tipp Man

Dazzler88 wrote: »

You'll probably recognise no.1 Tom Browne.He runs the biggest Dairy Herd in Ireland,he featured on TV3's programme "A Year on the Land".

Not a bit wonder he is the biggest with a Single Farm Payment of that size.

I could be wrong but wasn't he farming thousands of acres of tillage in the reference years?

Tipp Man

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I thought there was a limit to the amount any one farmer could get. Around 150000 there about.

currently i don't think there is any limit for either a farmer or a business

I believe the new proposals have limits and impose reductions once you get above a certain level

JOAT

Dazzler88 wrote: »

http://irishfarming.ie/2009/05/06/top-earners-from-cap-payments/
Not sure what acreage these guys have or what there farm enterprise is but they seem to be doing all right.

Im going to get slatted for posting that link.:p

From that list of the top earning farmers, i know four of them from near home. They all had huge amounts of ground rented for tillage in the reference years for the cap. They would snap up any bit of land that was anyway nearby at all. They all had their own machinery and some were using a very low cost method for planting etc. So they must have been making good money out of it. Most have now reduced acreage significantly and when theyr getting that kind of money why wouldn't they!!:D

sh1tstirrer

Tipp Man wrote: »

I could be wrong but wasn't he farming thousands of acres of tillage in the reference years?

I don't think so. He took a payment to exit dairying in the early 80's and went into tillage. He got his quota back through the Mulder scheme.

Rovi

[MOD] Posts split off to a thread of their own.
Let's be REALLY careful when talking about identifiable named people folks! [/MOD]

Tipp Man

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I don't think so. He took a payment to exit dairying in the early 80's and went into tillage. He got his quota back through the Mulder scheme.

How would that stop him having a very large tillage enterprise??

sh1tstirrer

Tipp Man wrote: »

How would that stop him having a very large tillage enterprise??

It wouldn't. He did have all tillage before he got the Mulder quota so he converted the tillage land to dairying.

jeff greene

Who cares?

whelan1

am surprised mr goodman isnt on the list

pakalasa

...or Coolmore.
I think certain people knew certain people.

polod

Dazzler88 wrote: »

http://irishfarming.ie/2009/05/06/top-earners-from-cap-payments/
Not sure what acreage these guys have or what there farm enterprise is but they seem to be doing all right.

Im going to get slatted for posting that link.:p

Holy fook im in shock after opening that link :D that is shocking money, no wounder 'the landless/townies' think farmers are loaded and giving out like hell about the money they recieve from the CAP. There should be a cap on the max payment. leave some more for us smaller guys :D

Tipp Man

polod wrote: »

Holy fook im in shock after opening that link :D that is shocking money, no wounder 'the landless/townies' think farmers are loaded and giving out like hell about the money they recieve from the CAP. They should be a cap on the max payment. leave some more for us smaller guys :D

I am personally against a CAP on individuals

5live

Tipp Man wrote: »

I am personally against a CAP on individuals

Why?

Tipp Man

5live wrote: »

Why?

Well what is the basis of SFP - is it to compensate us for losses and to pay us for having to abide by very tight regulations? I think this is the main reason (or at least it has turned out to be the main reason)

Lets take a suckler herd of 100 cows making a loss of say 10k per annum - SFP is there to bring this farmer back into profit and compensate him for the time, hastle it takes to comply with all the rules and regulations (and potential profit forgone by having to comply). I don't think anybody would begrudge him a SFP of 30k for example

Now say we have a suckler herd of 1000 cows making a loss of 100k per annum. This farmer still has to comply with all of the rules and regs across his entire herd and he is loosing the same amount per cow. So why should people complain when this farmer gets a SFP of 300k for example?? Its only in the same proportion to the 100 cow herd

so why shouldn't he be compensated on the same basis across his entire herd? Who decides on what limits an individual should get? Some might consider 50k a large SFP - others could consider it a small SFP

Generally People that are getting large SFP's are farming a lot of land, have a lot of cattle or a lot of tillage or whatever. They are having to work harder and have a lot more capital invested than those who are getting small SFP.

Dazzler88

I agree with a lot of what your saying Tipp Man but have to say I think SFP has to be capped in order to get young people into farming.
I see local established farmers every year who own a few acres and rent about 80% of their land,these guys who had great acreage for reference years,are now getting large payments and these guys are driving up the price of rented land for young farmers who are trying to start out.

e.g. Pat is a middle aged farmer who owns 20 acres and rents 120 acres.He gets an SPF of €50,000.

John is in his early 20's,he has no land in his own name but manages to rent 20 acres that his no entitlements and can't afford to buy them(no money from banks),just say he goes to buy stock at the Mart and sees 2 lovely heifers.He starts bidding on them but who is the other side of the ring also bidding,good old Pat,what chance does a guy starting out in farming have againist an established farmer with a large SFP.I think we all know who will be bringing the heifers home.

Tipp Man

Dazzler88 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what your saying Tipp Man but have to say I think SFP has to be capped in order to get young people into farming.
I see local established farmers every year who own a few acres and rent about 80% of their land,these guys who had great acreage for reference years,are now getting large payments and these guys are driving up the price of rented land for young farmers who are trying to start out.

e.g. Pat is a middle aged farmer who owns 20 acres and rents 120 acres.He gets an SPF of €50,000.

John is in his early 20's,he has no land in his own name but manages to rent 20 acres that his no entitlements and can't afford to buy them(no money from banks),just say he goes to buy stock at the Mart and sees 2 lovely heifers.He starts bidding on them but who is the other side of the ring also bidding,good old Pat,what chance does a guy starting out in farming have againist an established farmer with a large SFP.I think we all know who will be bringing the heifers home.

But its the same starting out in any business - I wouldn't set up a small shop and expect to take on Dunnes or if i get into the airline businness to be better than Michael o Leary. Why would you expect John who is just starting out to be able to outbid Pat who has been doing it for 30 or 40 years. Pat has that amount of experience andconsequently wealth/capital built up over those years that he should be a stronger buyer than John.

I don't see why a new entrant should be expected to be as strong as Pat -they wouldn't in most other lines of business

Anyway there are schemes available for new entrants to get entitlements - isn't that where the modulation which comes out of our SFP goes?? Also it's coming out of our quotas. John if elegible can buy milk for a few cent a litre - we have paid 35 cent for quota and it was even higher than that in the last round. New entrants are getting more handouts now in farming then they have ever done before

Dazzler88

Fair enough I agree with the example of O'Leary but Farming cant always be compared to other businesses as it is a way of life.There is loads of small farmers struggling to get by but they wont get out of farming because their father's father was a farmer.Yet every year businesses fails and people go under.A farmer will as last resort sell land,any farmer will tell you that.

Plus not that many schemes for young farmers at the moment,Young Farmers Aid was scrapped.

I take the example of the milk quota but how is the young farmer going to get a bank to give him money to build a diary platform on rented land?

Also they wont give him money to buy land either,they would want deeds for twice the amount land they are looking to purchase and 30-40% deposit.

Just look at places for Ag collages last year.Think 1800 applied for 700 places,that tells its own story.

5live

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well what is the basis of SFP - is it to compensate us for losses and to pay us for having to abide by very tight regulations? I think this is the main reason (or at least it has turned out to be the main reason)

Lets take a suckler herd of 100 cows making a loss of say 10k per annum - SFP is there to bring this farmer back into profit and compensate him for the time, hastle it takes to comply with all the rules and regulations (and potential profit forgone by having to comply). I don't think anybody would begrudge him a SFP of 30k for example

Now say we have a suckler herd of 1000 cows making a loss of 100k per annum. This farmer still has to comply with all of the rules and regs across his entire herd and he is loosing the same amount per cow. So why should people complain when this farmer gets a SFP of 300k for example?? Its only in the same proportion to the 100 cow herd

so why shouldn't he be compensated on the same basis across his entire herd? Who decides on what limits an individual should get? Some might consider 50k a large SFP - others could consider it a small SFP

Generally People that are getting large SFP's are farming a lot of land, have a lot of cattle or a lot of tillage or whatever. They are having to work harder and have a lot more capital invested than those who are getting small SFP.

I would agree with you up to a point Tippman. Are you saying there is no economies of scale, that a farm with 50 cows is equally as efficient for one man as a farm with 100 cows?

I would be in favour of capping because of the economies of scale. If i can keep an extra 10 cows with no investment then i will be more profitable by the amount of extra money those animals can earn. Likewise with acreages. If i can farm more land with the same cost structure then i can be more profitable. I see nothing wrong in that. But, as in the current system, if i can farm less land and produce less and get paid the same for less output, i have a moral difficulty (nearest word i can find) with that.

I have no gripe with those on the list. I have no interest in the list and never will and for the life of me just cant fathom why anybody would. They worked the system to their advantage and fair play to them. But morally (that bloody word again) there has to be something wrong with a system where some can get colossal sums while 400,000 ha arent elegible for a red cent even though they may be just as productive as the high earners are now

Tipp Man

5live wrote: »

I would agree with you up to a point Tippman. Are you saying there is no economies of scale, that a farm with 50 cows is equally as efficient for one man as a farm with 100 cows?

I would be in favour of capping because of the economies of scale. If i can keep an extra 10 cows with no investment then i will be more profitable by the amount of extra money those animals can earn. Likewise with acreages. If i can farm more land with the same cost structure then i can be more profitable. I see nothing wrong in that. But, as in the current system, if i can farm less land and produce less and get paid the same for less output, i have a moral difficulty (nearest word i can find) with that.

I have no gripe with those on the list. I have no interest in the list and never will and for the life of me just cant fathom why anybody would. They worked the system to their advantage and fair play to them. But morally (that bloody word again) there has to be something wrong with a system where some can get colossal sums while 400,000 ha arent elegible for a red cent even though they may be just as productive as the high earners are now

I think economies of scale is a phrase that is bandied about too much - it seems to imply that the cost benefit return by increasing is linear - so bigger is automatically better. So if i make 800 profit from 1 cow i will automatically make 80k from 100 cows. In farming this is far from the truth. so while you gain in some areas such as having fixed costs spread over a bigger herd for example you loose in other areas as by having a bigger herd you cannot give as much attention to detail as a smaller herd. Attention to detail can be very profitable. Going back to your example there is no reason that a 50 cow herd can't make as much per cow as a 100 cow herd - they could even make more per cow.

In my example the 1000 suckler herd would have a huge labour requirement compared to the 100 herd but would gain in other areas such as say having the cost of the tractor spread over a much larger herd. Swings and roundabouts like i said

It was interesting to hear Tom Browne say on that year on the land programme that you don't need to be big to be efficient and i agree completly. In fact i firmly believe that the bigger a farm gets the less efficient they get once they get above what the owner can handle.

Regarding the 400,000 ha that are currently inelegible. Surely the simple solution when we move into the new system has to be that every farmer submits maps for the acreage he farmed during the year, owned land, rented land, whatever. A flat rate payment is then made per acre. there is then no such thing as elegible land or non-elegible. Only farmed land is paid and it is paid to the person farming it

yourpics

Can you see what everyone gets through CAP?

Dazzler88

Not anymore,they were available online last year but that has now been removed.

Username John

5live wrote: »

I would agree with you up to a point Tippman. Are you saying there is no economies of scale, that a farm with 50 cows is equally as efficient for one man as a farm with 100 cows?

I would be in favour of capping because of the economies of scale. If i can keep an extra 10 cows with no investment then i will be more profitable by the amount of extra money those animals can earn. Likewise with acreages. If i can farm more land with the same cost structure then i can be more profitable. I see nothing wrong in that. But, as in the current system, if i can farm less land and produce less and get paid the same for less output, i have a moral difficulty (nearest word i can find) with that.

I have no gripe with those on the list. I have no interest in the list and never will and for the life of me just cant fathom why anybody would. They worked the system to their advantage and fair play to them. But morally (that bloody word again) there has to be something wrong with a system where some can get colossal sums while 400,000 ha arent elegible for a red cent even though they may be just as productive as the high earners are now

I find myself agreeing with Tipp Man here - why should there be a limit on the payments you can receive?
On the economies of scale - If I understand your point correctly - should the SFP be more weighted to smaller farmers - so first 10 cattle you get X, next 50 you get less, next 100 you get less, etc?

I do have an issue with how the payment is based on reference years...
It is unfair and wrong how you farm today deciding how your business does for the next 10 - 12 years... But we have covered this already in a previous thread

As for the list - let em off...

rancher

Tipp Man wrote: »

But its the same starting out in any business -I don't see why a new entrant should be expected to be as strong as Pat -they wouldn't in most other lines of business

Anyway there are schemes available for new entrants to get entitlements - isn't that where the modulation which comes out of our SFP goes?? Also it's coming out of our quotas. John if elegible can buy milk for a few cent a litre - we have paid 35 cent for quota and it was even higher than that in the last round. New entrants are getting more handouts now in farming then they have ever done before

Firstly I receive way above the average payment per ha, and even I can see the inequity that's out there, in that one farmer gets maybe 700 per ha. and the same land next door receives 200, I think greed is muddying peoples sense of fair play.
Secondly, so what if john is getting a once off subsidy of 40000 to buy 40000 gals, a well set up pat is probably receiving that every year, any way didn't dairy farmers get free quota of millions of gals in 1983,
Single farm payment in its present form does not encourage efficient farming, older farmers hanging on because of its guarantee of income, younger farmers unable to compete around the ring against sfp subsidised buyers, the sooner there's a level playing field the better

Dazzler88

rancher wrote: »

Firstly I receive way above the average payment per ha, and even I can see the inequity that's out there, in that one farmer gets maybe 700 per ha. and the same land next door receives 200, I think greed is muddying peoples sense of fair play.
Secondly, so what if john is getting a once off subsidy of 40000 to buy 40000 gals, a well set up pat is probably receiving that every year, any way didn't dairy farmers get free quota of millions of gals in 1983,
Single farm payment in its present form does not encourage efficient farming, older farmers hanging on because of its guarantee of income, younger farmers unable to compete around the ring against sfp subsidised buyers, the sooner there's a level playing field the better

+1 I agree with you here.The large SFP holders are leaving it hard for young people to get into farming.I can rent land tomorrow but I won't get any money to develop that farm from banks as I have no big SFP,I could buy a milk quota but where will I get the money to build a Diary platform.

Tipp Man

rancher wrote: »

Firstly I receive way above the average payment per ha, and even I can see the inequity that's out there, in that one farmer gets maybe 700 per ha. and the same land next door receives 200, I think greed is muddying peoples sense of fair play.
Secondly, so what if john is getting a once off subsidy of 40000 to buy 40000 gals, a well set up pat is probably receiving that every year, any way didn't dairy farmers get free quota of millions of gals in 1983,
Single farm payment in its present form does not encourage efficient farming, older farmers hanging on because of its guarantee of income, younger farmers unable to compete around the ring against sfp subsidised buyers, the sooner there's a level playing field the better

From above and your user name i assume your a cattle man and not a dairy man??

Either way elegible new entrants received 40k gallons free not a subsidy to buy it. They are then elegible to buy milk at a huge huge discount AND they get first preference on it

Secondly you say that the SFP system which is based on 10 years ago is unfair and then have the cheek to say we got free quota nearly 30 years ago. The fact is that the quota has been a nouse around the neck of dairy farmers in this country for 30 years. It wasn't given to us free it was a bloody limit that we were put under, we were stopped from producing and still are. For 30 years we have been unable to increase our herd - tell me how is a limit that was retrospectively enacted free??

Regarding the SFP I never said it was fair - i merely stated that there should not be a limit on it. In fact i put forward how i would like to see it administered

Username John

rancher wrote: »

Firstly I receive way above the average payment per ha, and even I can see the inequity that's out there, in that one farmer gets maybe 700 per ha. and the same land next door receives 200, I think greed is muddying peoples sense of fair play.
Secondly, so what if john is getting a once off subsidy of 40000 to buy 40000 gals, a well set up pat is probably receiving that every year, any way didn't dairy farmers get free quota of millions of gals in 1983,
Single farm payment in its present form does not encourage efficient farming, older farmers hanging on because of its guarantee of income, younger farmers unable to compete around the ring against sfp subsidised buyers, the sooner there's a level playing field the better

But does there not have to be a level of inequality?
Lets say there are two farmers beside each other - one killing himself getting every last bit out of every acre - another doing nothing, letting weeds and rushes grow - should they get the same payment?

Does it not make more sense to have more reference years, maybe every 3 years or so? So the system is never too far out of sync with what you are actually doing?
But this is I accept, going back towards the old headage type system...

Dazzler88

Tipp Man wrote: »

Either way elegible new entrants received 40k gallons free not a subsidy to buy it. They are then elegible to buy milk at a huge huge discount AND they get first preference on it

What good is 40k gallons if you have no SFP,cant afford to rent land to keep a Diary herd and don't have the money to build a Diary platform.The guy with the large SFP will be able to get even bigger when quotas are lifted and the small guy will be left behind yet again.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Secondly you say that the SFP system which is based on 10 years ago is unfair and then have the cheek to say we got free quota nearly 30 years ago. The fact is that the quota has been a nouse around the neck of dairy farmers in this country for 30 years. It wasn't given to us free it was a bloody limit that we were put under, we were stopped from producing and still are. For 30 years we have been unable to increase our herd - tell me how is a limit that was retrospectively enacted free??

Isn't that why they brought in Milk quotas because we were overproducing?Not that long ago we heard about the milk lake and sugar mountains.

Tipp Man

Dazzler88 wrote: »

+1 I agree with you here.The large SFP holders are leaving it hard for young people to get into farming.I can rent land tomorrow but I won't get any money to develop that farm from banks as I have no big SFP,I could buy a milk quota but where will I get the money to build a Diary platform.

What is stopping you from applying to the department for entitlments?? Or buying entitlements?

You do realise that with any new business the banks will want to see you put your own capital in as well - i can't think of any business where the banks are going to throw money at a new business without serious committment from the owner

And speaking of borrowings - we borrowed money for land in the 70's and 80's at 18% that is eighteen percent NOT one point eight percent. young farmers nowadays cannot comprehend interest rates so high. The point is we all faced issues when we were getting into business and expanding. Interest rates is clearly not an issue today - it was back then

This is a problem of modern society (not just farming) - people expect to have everything instantly and to have the biggest of everything. What happened to the days of starting your business, working your ass off and building it slowly. Working all the hours under the sun with pennies as a reward. Those days seem to be gone - Lifestyle seems to be the most important thing to people now. Let me tell you nobody is going to give any new business an easy ride because most have worked hard to get to where they are so why should they let the newbies have an easy run of it

Dazzler88

Tipp Man wrote: »

What is stopping you from applying to the department for entitlments?? Or buying entitlements?

The price of entitlements have gone crazy,way too expensive,why you ask?because the guys with loads of entitlements are stacking entitlements,also with recent talk of the new SFP been based on entitlements,of course just rumours but still sent the price upwards.

Tipp Man wrote: »

You do realise that with any new business the banks will want to see you put your own capital in as well - i can't think of any business where the banks are going to throw money at a new business without serious committment from the owner

And speaking of borrowings - we borrowed money for land in the 70's and 80's at 18% that is eighteen percent NOT one point eight percent. young farmers nowadays cannot comprehend interest rates so high. The point is we all faced issues when we were getting into business and expanding. Interest rates is clearly not an issue today - it was back then

Im not saying that young farmers should have money thrown at them but the banks as you well know are in a toxic state at the moment.Im well aware of the interest rates in the 70/80's but back then the banks didnt have the bad debt they have today.The banks will still lend to big scale farmers but wont touch the small guy.

Tipp Man wrote: »

This is a problem of modern society (not just farming) - people expect to have everything instantly and to have the biggest of everything. What happened to the days of starting your business, working your ass off and building it slowly. Working all the hours under the sun with pennies as a reward. Those days seem to be gone - Lifestyle seems to be the most important thing to people now. Let me tell you nobody is going to give any new business an easy ride because most have worked hard to get to where they are so why should they let the newbies have an easy run of it

The biggest problem facing young people today is the negative equity the country is in thanks to our wasteful government,greedy developers and our false boom.What young person could get a mortage now on their own.Watch this space post budget.

Tipp Man

Dazzler88 wrote: »

What good is 40k gallons if you have no SFP,cant afford to rent land to keep a Diary herd and don't have the money to build a Diary platform.The guy with the large SFP will be able to get even bigger when quotas are lifted and the small guy will be left behind yet again.

I am absolutley amazed by the above post. Seriously you need to sit down and have a good hard look in the mirror. Are you really trying to say to me what good is 40k gallons of free quota?? you put up the cheapest parlour you can, you work your socks off, your rear your calves if you can't buy any more milk. You get started. SFP isn't the be all and end all. There are plenty of good farmers around the country not getting any - i would say they are probably better farmers for it.

Also can you not see that a fella milking 60 cows for the last 30 years is always ALWAYS going to be in a better position than you who has nothing? That will always be the case - when you have spent 30 years milking you will realise why.

Tipp Man

Dazzler are you actually farming land at the moment??

Dazzler88

Tipp Man wrote: »

I am absolutley amazed by the above post. Seriously you need to sit down and have a good hard look in the mirror.

Im not having a personal attack at you Tipp Man,no need to get personal.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are you really trying to say to me what good is 40k gallons of free quota?? you put up the cheapest parlour you can, you work your socks off, your rear your calves if you can't buy any more milk. You get started. SFP isn't the be all and end all. There are plenty of good farmers around the country not getting any - i would say they are probably better farmers for it.

Not that simply to fulfil 40k gallons when you starting from scratch,some guys have been milking years and still only at it in a small way.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Also can you not see that a fella milking 60 cows for the last 30 years is always ALWAYS going to be in a better position than you who has nothing? That will always be the case - when you have spent 30 years milking you will realise why.

I have nothing against the lad that has been at it for 30 years but my original problems was with the system.What SFP system done was make the big men bigger and didn't take into account the small farmer.

Tipp Man

Dazzler88 wrote: »

The price of entitlements have gone crazy,way too expensive,why you ask?because the guys with loads of entitlements are stacking entitlements,also with recent talk of the new SFP been based on entitlements,of course just rumours but still sent the price upwards.

Look entitlements are like any investment if you think they are worth it buy them if you don't then don't complain because somebody else bought them

Dazzler88 wrote: »

Im not saying that young farmers should have money thrown at them but the banks as you well know are in a toxic state at the moment.Im well aware of the interest rates in the 70/80's but back then the banks didnt have the bad debt they have today.The banks will still lend to big scale farmers but wont touch the small guy.

Well if you can't get the money to buy land trying thinking outside the box, share farming, leasing whatever. Have you actually tried to do anything or are you just moaning about others getting SFP?

Dazzler88 wrote: »

The biggest problem facing young people today is the negative equity the country is in thanks to our wasteful government,greedy developers and our false boom.What young person could get a mortage now on their own.Watch this space post budget.

As far as i am aware no bank put a gun to any young persons head and forced them to pay 3 times what a house was really worth. Whilst the banks lent completly wrecklessly people need to stand up and accept their responsibility as well. People borrowed completely wrecklessly - it was a 2 way street.

Let me ask you why would any young person WANT to get a mortage on their own in todays climate??

rancher

Username John wrote: »

But does there not have to be a level of inequality?
Lets say there are two farmers beside each other - one killing himself getting every last bit out of every acre - another doing nothing, letting weeds and rushes grow - should they get the same payment?

Does it not make more sense to have more reference years, maybe every 3 years or so? So the system is never too far out of sync with what you are actually doing?
But this is I accept, going back towards the old headage type system...

In theory they shouldn't get the same payment, but in reality it is the only solution. there is a lot of farmers working hard receiving a very poor sfp , equally a lot doing nothing, even setting land without maps, receiving a huge SFP.

Dazzler88

Tipp Man wrote: »

Look entitlements are like any investment if you think they are worth it buy them if you don't then don't complain because somebody else bought them

They aren't worth it because their too expensive, that's basic economics.You don't buy shares when their high and sell them when their low.Best of luck to anyone who thinks they will make money on them next year.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well if you can't get the money to buy land trying thinking outside the box, share farming, leasing whatever. Have you actually tried to do anything or are you just moaning about others getting SFP?

I have tried tirelessly and I am continuing to try but getting knocked at very hurdle.If I think to small Im laughed at and if I think to big I'm told show me your farm payments for the last 5-10 years or else told
"Oh we couldn't help you with such a big venture"

Tipp Man wrote: »

As far as i am aware no bank put a gun to any young persons head and forced them to pay 3 times what a house was really worth. Whilst the banks lent completly wrecklessly people need to stand up and accept their responsibility as well. People borrowed completely wrecklessly - it was a 2 way street.

We could talk all day about who is at fault for the crash but I think the media does enough about it.You obviously think people were wrong to take money that was offered to them,my father was always a good customer of the bank,during boom years he would get calls every week,would you like to get a mortgage to start a housing estate,here there,wherever.Thankfully he refused on every occasion.

Tipp Man wrote: »

Let me ask you why would any young person WANT to get a mortage on their own in todays climate??

May have worded that wrong,what I meant how would a young couple that are both working get a mortgage.

Tipp Man

Dazzler88 wrote: »

Im not having a personal attack at you Tipp Man,no need to get personal.

I'm not getting personal - your attitude comes across as so defeatist its unbelievable. That really irks me. You have plenty of options

Dazzler88 wrote: »

Not that simply to fulfil 40k gallons when you starting from scratch,some guys have been milking years and still only at it in a small way.

I don't know what to say to this - do you expect somebody (the IFA, The government, Glanbia) to give you land and cows to go with the free quota? Seriously it is not going to be easy - its not meant to be easy. I don't think it has ever been easy

Dazzler88 wrote: »

I have nothing against the lad that has been at it for 30 years but my original problems was with the system.What SFP system done was make the big men bigger and didn't take into account the small farmer.

Funny around me none of the big guys have bought any land in the last 15 years - the ones buying the land are the small and medium sized guys. No matter what business you are in it is always harder for the small guy to catch the big guy - SFP has done nothing to distorte this imo

Dazzler88

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not getting personal - your attitude comes across as so defeatist its unbelievable. That really irks me. You have plenty of options



I don't know what to say to this - do you expect somebody (the IFA, The government, Glanbia) to give you land and cows to go with the free quota? Seriously it is not going to be easy - its not meant to be easy. I don't think it has ever been easy



Funny around me none of the big guys have bought any land in the last 15 years - the ones buying the land are the small and medium sized guys. No matter what business you are in it is always harder for the small guy to catch the big guy - SFP has done nothing to distorte this imo

Im don't think there is much point in discussing it any further.I feel the system is flawed you think otherwise.Everyone is entitled to their opinion.Im not going turn this thread into an argument.

rancher

Tipp Man wrote: »

From above and your user name i assume your a cattle man and not a dairy man??

.

Either way elegible new entrants received 40k gallons free not a subsidy to buy it. They are then elegible to buy milk at a huge huge discount AND they get first preference on it

Secondly you say that the SFP system which is based on 10 years ago is unfair and then have the cheek to say we got free quota nearly 30 years ago. The fact is that the quota has been a nouse around the neck of dairy farmers in this country for 30 years. It wasn't given to us free it was a bloody limit that we were put under, we were stopped from producing and still are. For 30 years we have been unable to increase our herd - tell me how is a limit that was retrospectively enacted free??



Regarding the SFP I never said it was fair - i merely stated that there should not be a limit on it. In fact i put forward how i would like to see it administered

Actually I'm a sheep farmer now, farming with the benefit of entitlements accumulated on suckler to beef herd. Feeding beef was the most efficient method of putting your SFP into factory owners pockets.

My argument still stands, it's only only once off, new entrants have to be supported and encouraged, Irish farmer profile is not healthy at the moment, we need new energy in farming ....and especially in IFA. Notice how many farm accidents are over 65...[/I]

It might have been a noose but it wasn't long turning into an asset, why didn't you buy more quota, like you're telling the young farmers here.

Dazzler88

rancher wrote: »

Notice how many farm accidents are over 65...

Definitely agree with you here.Unfortunately farmers are an ageing population.It will continue this way unless the IFA,Teagsc and Dept take action.

jeff greene

There was a brilliant idea touted here a while back re SFP reform, where it was linked to the rainfall of your area. Fairer?

polod

The bigger farmer always wins, always has and always will (80+ acres (owned) to me is a 'big' farm) and thats the way the cookie crumbles Nothing you can do about it, unless ya could have chosen your parents :D

Tipp Man

rancher wrote: »

Actually I'm a sheep farmer now, farming with the benefit of entitlements accumulated on suckler to beef herd. Feeding beef was the most efficient method of putting your SFP into factory owners pockets.

My argument still stands, it's only only once off, new entrants have to be supported and encouraged, Irish farmer profile is not healthy at the moment, we need new energy in farming ....and especially in IFA. Notice how many farm accidents are over 65...[/I]

It might have been a noose but it wasn't long turning into an asset, why didn't you buy more quota, like you're telling the young farmers here.

I have bought plenty of quota at a cost of 30 cents and higher. New entrants can get 40k gallons free and first preference to buy it at something like 5 cent. Are you really trying to say that new dairy entrants aren't supported?

So what price do you think this quota asset will be worth in 2015?

whelan1

Tipp Man wrote: »

I have bought plenty of quota at a cost of 30 cents and higher. New entrants can get 40k gallons free and first preference to buy it at something like 5 cent. Are you really trying to say that new dairy entrants aren't supported?

So what price do you think this quota asset will be worth in 2015?

afair i paid £2.50 per gallon of milk quota, had to have seperate milking facilities that where passed by the dairies , tbh i think the young people today are having a laugh compared to what we had to do... there where no partnerships then

cruizer101

I'll admit to being a townie so don't know much about this. The SFP always seemed a bit mad to me but I do realise there is a lot more to it than the government just giving farmers nice payment.

Anyway my question is not about the SFP but rather the payment made to companies, I am completely baffled as to why a company should receive a payment of 83,000,000, if its not drawing the thread off topic could anyone offer an explanation for this, just seems crazy to me.

bob charles

cruizer101 wrote: »

I'll admit to being a townie so don't know much about this. The SFP always seemed a bit mad to me but I do realise there is a lot more to it than the government just giving farmers nice payment.

Anyway my question is not about the SFP but rather the payment made to companies, I am completely baffled as to why a company should receive a payment of 83,000,000, if its not drawing the thread off topic could anyone offer an explanation for this, just seems crazy to me.

That was a once off payment to Greencore to exit the sugar processing business. All farmers who grew sugar beet also received payments when the EU decided that Ireland was no longer allowed process our own sugar.

yourpics

Dazzler88 wrote: »

Not anymore,they were available online last year but that has now been removed.

In that case it seems a bit unfair to publish the names of the top ten!

Username John

yourpics wrote: »

In that case it seems a bit unfair to publish the names of the top ten!

Its an old link - from 2009, when all payments were viewable online.

JohnBoy

A couple of small points.....

The SFP is not actually intended as a tool to directly subsidize production losses.

It is actually intended much more as a social support for rural areas, intended to keep small farms alive, and hence small local communities. It does this by subsidizing production losses.


I'm not 100% sure I'm in favour of the proposed capping method and would think a sliding scale of acreage might be fairer but I do think there should be some form of limitations implemented definitely. I also fear that the new limits will be open to abuse as farms are allowed offset wage bills against their SFP limitation, I'd imagine some big farms are going to start paying their partners very generous wages to do the books and the like.


As for new entrants getting lots of handouts?

Apart from the quota allocation, which comes from the annual 1% increase in quota each year till 2015.

The only other thing I'm aware of being specifically available to new entrants is SFP allocations from the national reserve, which are limited at €5000, hardly the biggest payout ever.


if there's something else let us know, cos believe me I'm all ears