fake bike frames

michael196

is there such a thing?

buzz around certain parts about fake frames purchased from the land of Schezuan ?

Icyseanfitz

do you mean Chinese? if so funnily enough some of the big brands are selling bikes with the same frames (with a nice paint scheme) as to what you could get off hong fu bikes for 400 euro at over a 1000 euro

michael196

yes chineese, just trying to stay on the right side of the moderator, . Is there a lot of them in the country ?


surely a risky investment ?

Icyseanfitz

meh a lot of the big carbon frames are made in china any way, a couple of the lads here have bought from these guys and the bikes have turned out lovely, tbh i find carbon bikes annoying as the mark up on brand alone can be stupidly nuts.

a lot of the frames on that site are the exactly same as to what youd buy from some big manufacturers just without the brand.

maybe one or two of the guys who own the bikes can tell you about them, il probably get one next year just to see what there like

Beasty

Yes there are fakes. Yes you are taking a risk buying them - you don't know if they could be "seconds", or poor copies. Do a search on "Chinarello".

Yes there are some that posters have found to be very good value - again a search of "Hong Fu" should get you to a thread about this "brand"

Unless you know exactly what you are purchasing, I would suggest steering clear, as your chances of any comeback if anything goes wrong are pretty low

bcmf

The only failure on these frames have been on the steerer tube and this has been down to incorrect installation of the headset.I haven't seen one spontaneously explode when the wind went against you. Thats not to say they havent exploded.

michael196

i just cannot believe people actually buy these .......... its like wanting to know that ur front skewer is tight as u race downhill........with a known fake ..who knows what will hapeen next ?

Icyseanfitz

yeah i wouldnt mtb on one of them but id definitely try the road ones, i mean look at the crap people are already able to cycle on the roads without dying

niceonetom

It's a slightly complicated area. People are taking generic open-mould chinese carbon frames and putting decals and stickers on them making them look like Italian thoroughbreds. The thing is, some of the people slapping the decals on are the Italian companies themselves:


is actually this xpace



It's also sold by Ribble as the Stealth, and by Pedalforce as something else.

There's a big difference between that and the Chinarello phenomenon. Pinerello have nothing to do with that and the frame under those decals is different from the actual dogmas (which are, of course, made in China also).

The murkiness of these waters does explain why some will tell you that all frames coming out of China are functionally identical and that paying top whack for Giovanni to apply decals and add €1500 to the price so enough value is added to qualify as "made in Italy" even though it is anything but. I don't think that's the case though. When a company like De Rosa (or Ribble, Ritte, Planet-X or Pedalforce or anyone else doing this) puts their decals on a frame they're essentially vouching for it. If it breaks it's on them. So, there's your quality control - for the chinarellos there is none.

Lumen

michael196 wrote: »

i just cannot believe people actually buy these .......... its like wanting to know that ur front skewer is tight as u race downhill........with a known fake ..who knows what will hapeen next ?

Indeed. I ride only the best Trek frames and Mavic wheels, thus guaranteeing I will never have an unexpected failure.

gman2k

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

yeah i wouldnt mtb on one of them but id definitely try the road ones, i mean look at the crap people are already able to cycle on the roads without dying

I have a Chinese hardtail mtb, rock solid for over a year now, and has taken a hammering on most of the Coillte trails in the country and worse....
You'd be mad to spend money on a branded carbon hardtail IMO when these are much better value.

davey101

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

yeah i wouldnt mtb on one of them but id definitely try the road ones, i mean look at the crap people are already able to cycle on the roads without dying

I know a number of people who have these as mtbs and some regularly win races on them, Personally I would be more concerned about using one on the road, greater speeds = alot more damaged bones.
What I suspect is going on with these frames is that they are probably made using the same moulds as branded models but maybe there is less carbon applied to each bike, just an assumption really.
But on the other hand I heard a story before of a rep who was getting a machine manufactured in china and when on a trip to see how production was going he spotted the exact same machine in different colours at another end of the factory! cheeky beggers. But this is the norm in china they copy blatantly and see it as acceptable to do so, on that note we may never know if these frames are exact copies or not. I probably would buy one if i ever needed a frame and not wanting to spend too much that is.

bcmf

I have ridden 2 'fake' frames. I am a fat bastard sprinter type of guy.
I go downhill like a hot snot off a hot butter knife ..and uphill like a snail.... and never had an issue nor did I hold back and I am still alive.
If you wanna spend a grand on a carbon frame spend a grand.If you wanna spend a couple of hundred spend a couple of hundred.

coolbeans

bcmf wrote: »

The only failure on these frames have been on the steerer tube and this has been down to incorrect installation of the headset.I haven't seen one spontaneously explode when the wind went against you. Thats not to say they havent exploded.

How do you know that's the only failure in fairness? Loads have been shipped and I am sure many people are happy but when you're heading downhill at near 80kmh you wanna be confident that some chancer hasn't taken a shortcut. You just don't know with these frames.

michael196

i guess manufacturers that make their stuff in house only and not subcontract to asia, are the only ones u can realy trust, to be real frames.

bcmf

coolbeans wrote: »

How do you know that's the only failure in fairness? Loads have been shipped and I am sure many people are happy but when you're heading downhill at near 80kmh you wanna be confident that some chancer hasn't taken a shortcut. You just don't know with these frames.

In fairness I dont but how do we know that a <insert €1000 brand name here> hasnt either.
I have seen a very well known handlebar and stem manufacturer stem fail on a guy on a downhill causing him brain damage. Big brands can fail just as much as unbranded.
And Yes I get the crash replacement thing.
As has been pointed out on other forums by some other guys who have bought a chinese unbranded frame. They buy a frame for $400 to race on and if they crash and write it off they buy a new one and it's another $400 etc. If they buy a <insert $1000 brand name here> and some fooker stands on the brakes and causes a pile up and they write it off its lets say another $500.
FWIW (sorry Quigs)IMO I wouldn't go near the Pina clones as they have simply become too popular and am of the belief that production is struggling to keep up with demand

bcmf

michael196 wrote: »

i guess manufacturers that make their stuff in house only and not subcontract to asia, are the only ones u can realy trust, to be real frames.

Pinarello have admitted their frames are made in Asia and only finished (painted ??) in Italy.
Ribble / Planet X are the same.

coolbeans

bcmf wrote: »

coolbeans wrote: »

How do you know that's the only failure in fairness? Loads have been shipped and I am sure many people are happy but when you're heading downhill at near 80kmh you wanna be confident that some chancer hasn't taken a shortcut. You just don't know with these frames.

In fairness I dont but how do we know that a <insert €1000 brand name here> hasnt either.
I have seen a very well known handlebar and stem manufacturer stem fail on a guy on a downhill causing him brain damage. Big brands can fail just as much as unbranded.
And Yes I get the crash replacement thing.
As has been pointed out on other forums by some other guys who have bought a chinese unbranded frame. They buy a frame for $400 to race on and if they crash and write it off they buy a new one and it's another $400 etc. If they buy a <insert $1000 brand name here> and some fooker stands on the brakes and causes a pile up and they write it off its lets say another $500.
FWIW (sorry Quigs)IMO I wouldn't go near the Pina clones as they have simply become too popular and am of the belief that production is struggling to keep up with demand

Everything made by man can fail but the quality control process of a well known brand makes failure far less likely. I just think it's undeniable that these frames are a risk from a safety perspective.

bcmf

sure.
As I said before. Want a €1k frame buy a €1k frame.

coolbeans

bcmf wrote: »

sure.
As I said before. Want a €1k frame buy a €1k frame.

Confidence in safety is priceless. When I think of Charbon bikes I think of some of he disastrous Chinese cars launched recently. They're appalling in a crash, even the copies.

bcmf

....So are chrysler's ncap rating. AFAIK they are not chinese.
Anyway I don't wanna get into an argument as capitalism dictates we can choose what we want.

bcmf

coolbeans wrote: »

I just think it's undeniable that these frames are a risk from a safety perspective.

How is it undeniable?
I personally know of 2 high end frames that developed faults/cracks through ordinary use. Was the QC person asleep that day?
The fact that most of the carbon frames, both branded and unbranded,come from only a handful of factories coupled with the popularity and quantity that unbranded frames have sold/are now selling would lead me to believe that if the unbranded frame started to disentegrate I would guarantee that a few brand names would start to get nervous about the their own frames quality since they more then likely originated from the same production line.
Companies like Hong Fu unbranded, low quantity orders/sales now account for a nice percentage of their overall sales. So much so that they developed the e-hong fu site dedicated to that end of the sales. When I bought my 1st one they only had the 1 wholesale site. They stand to lose more then they gain from low quality QC.
The law of average's will dictate that there will be a failure ,as you point out. That rule of failure applies to both high cost frames as well as the low cost. The only real difference is that if you end up picking your teeth off the ground with a brand name you have a name you can try and sue. But if you are buying direct then you should have your eyes wide open. However throw a brand on it,get some public liability insurance and you become a PX/Ribble/Pedalforce - very simplistically put but you get the idea!

Lumen

coolbeans wrote: »

Charbon bikes I think of some of he disastrous Chinese cars launched recently. They're appalling in a crash, even the copies.

The major difference is that the Taiwanese/Chinese are the worlds experts on engineering carbon fibre bicycle frames. The same is not true of car platform engineering, AFAIK.

I suspect that the western input to most frames is limited to styling concerns.

Wheely GR8

The issue of carbon frames coming from china is something that stopped me from rushing into buying a carbon bike. I don't care if a frame is made in china tbh ,but I'd like to know what I'm paying for.

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

There's a big difference between that and the Chinarello phenomenon. Pinarello have nothing to do with that and the frame under those decals is different from the actual dogmas (which are, of course, made in China also).

Tom hits the nail on the head here over the confusion that crops up every time this issue is discussed. There's a big difference between frames manufactured by what's effectively an original design manufacturer which are licensed to other brands and frames that are unlicensed knock-offs of other frames.

Perhaps the best analogy is the difference between a phone manufactured by HTC and sold as a T-Mobile or Vodafone handset and a fake iPhone.

I'd be very wary of buying a frame whose primary design goal is to look like something else.

dave2pvd

michael196 wrote: »

i guess manufacturers that make their stuff in house only and not subcontract to asia, are the only ones u can realy trust, to be real frames.

Asia? It's a big place isn't it? Perhaps you perceive a lack of know-how, skill, intelligence, integrity or <insert positive character trait> lacking in people from this vast quadrant of the planet called Asia?

Would you refuse to buy something that comes from Japan? What about Taiwan? You know Taiwan are the world's leading manufacturer of high quality CF frames, right? Do you know that it was the Taiwanese that commercialized mass production of CF frames? And what about high modulus full monocoque frames (Specialized, Giant, Trek, Cannondale, Scott,...)? Where in the world are you going to find such an item other than Taiwan and China?

So who are these manufacturers that you really trust? I'd like to know. I wonder if they employ anyone of Asian descent in their Western factories :eek: ?

gman2k

Wheely GR8 wrote: »

The issue of carbon frames coming from china is something that stopped me from rushing into buying a carbon bike. I don't care if a frame is made in china tbh ,but I'd like to know what I'm paying for.

I'd be wary of buying a Carbon frame that was not made in china/ Taiwan at this stage, as that's where the knowledge and expertise lies.

AstraMonti

Trek's top of the line are made 100% in US. So you would prefer a generic chinese carbon from a 6.7 madone?

Wheely GR8

gman2k wrote: »

I'd be wary of buying a Carbon frame that was not made in china/ Taiwan at this stage, as that's where the knowledge and expertise lies.

I was told the really light carbon frames are the ones made by the actual bike companies ,it sounded like in china they over do the strenght to compensate for extreme stresses.

As I said ,it wouldn't matter to me where the frame was ,I just don't want to be paying for paint.

Lumen

Wheely GR8 wrote: »

I was told the really light carbon frames are the ones made by the actual bike companies ,it sounded like in china they over do the strenght to compensate for extreme stresses.

Can you name any of the "actual bike companies" making CF frames outside of China or Taiwan?

I know of Cippolini (Italy) and Trek (USA). And maybe BMC (Switzerland). And maybe that Mclaren Venge monstrosity.

dave2pvd

AstraMonti wrote: »

Trek's top of the line are made 100% in US. So you would prefer a generic chinese carbon from a 6.7 madone?

Maybe. If so, it's just a small fraction of their frames (OCLV).

However, I suspect this may have changed. Notice the delightfully vague statement they now have on their website:


"Is my bike made in the USA?

We continue to produce many of our bicycles in the US with a focus on our higher-end OCLV carbon fiber offerings. All of our bikes are designed and engineered at our headquarters in Waterloo, Wisconsin though select road, ATB, comfort, hybrid, urban and kids' bikes are produced by Trek-specific overseas vendors. Bicycles produced overseas follow the same stringent quality standards as our domestically built bikes. No matter where your bike is produced quality is stock on every Trek built".

I would be suspicious. The above reads like what you'd see in Irish Times' property supplement.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

Can you name any of the "actual bike companies" making CF frames outside of China or Taiwan?

I know of Cippolini (Italy) and Trek (USA). And maybe BMC (Switzerland). And maybe that Mclaren Venge monstrosity.

There's a good few more. Quite a few companies would manufacture their top end frames in-house and outsource the lower ones. These include Colnago, De Rosa, and Look.

All Time frames are made in France.

Chips Lovell

For me anyway, it doesn't matter a toss where the frame was manufactured, it's who's designed it that counts.

dave2pvd

The lightest and strongest tends to be the more capital, design and QC-intensive monocoque frame. To me, that's the ultimate in high tech for CF frames. You'll find that Bianchi, Colnago, Time, et al are only making tube-tube and butted CF frames 'at home'. Great frames, but I'm sure the Taiwanese would regard them as 'so 10 years ago'.

Of course the EU is quite happy to allow Euro manufacturers to import naked CF frames and sell them with 'Made in Italy' stickers because the painter was paid EUR1,000/hr.

Junior

It's old, but worth a read

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/features/bikebiz.html

Chips Lovell

dave2pvd wrote: »

The lightest and strongest tends to be the more capital, design and QC-intensive monocoque frame. To me, that's the ultimate in high tech for CF frames. You'll find that Bianchi, Colnago, Time, et al are only making tube-tube and butted CF frames 'at home'. Great frames, but I'm sure the Taiwanese would regard them as 'so 10 years ago'.

Of course the EU is quite happy to allow Euro manufacturers to import naked CF frames and sell them with 'Made in Italy' stickers because the painter was paid EUR1,000/hr.

In fairness though, in many cases its the Italians and French who are designing these monocoque frames.

I agree though that the Made in X thing is a complete farce.

Lumen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

In fairness though, in many cases its the Italians and French who are designing these monocoque frames.

Yes, but I'd question what that "design" actually entails, but also whether the answer to that question really matters.

We just want pretty stuff that doesn't break until we crash it. Who cares who contributed what to which process?

Chips Lovell

So in your eyes, a frame is a frame, and as long as it doesn't break and it looks pretty, you don't care which one you have?

Wheely GR8

I'm only starting out at all this ,but I'd imagine myself buying a frame of a company who looks after their team. At least you know where some of your money is going ,pitty I don't follow professional cycling but at least I have a good reason to now.

Lumen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So in your eyes, a frame is a frame, and as long as it doesn't break and it looks pretty, you don't care which one you have?

I do care a little bit about branding, in the sense that I like to watch a grand tour and see a bike which has the same logo as one of mine, but I really don't care where the designer lives or which factory applied the paint.

I am pleased to have a bike whose frame (Enigma) was mostly handmade in my home country. I was a bit disappointed to hear that they'd outsourced the headtube fabrication to the far east, but that only affected the ones with integrated headsets and my (non-integrated) one was made in a shed somewhere in England along with the rest of the frame.

I guess my point is that I'd pay a bit more for a British frame because I'm from there, and I'd pay a bit more for an Irish frame because I live here, but because there are no Irish framebuilders I can't have one of those so for the most part I could care less where my frames come from.

Morrisseeee

I'll copy & paste from Junior's link:

Likewise with any other process. There's the bike industry price, and there's the not-bike-industry price, if you know where to look. This is where hard work and pavement-pounding comes in. I've been lucky to know certain people who were good at pounding the pavement and finding the best factory and the lowest price.

This dynamic doesn't work with frames, however. You've got to get your frames made at a frame factory, because bike frames must be incredibly precise. It always makes me chuckle when I see somebody come into the bike biz from some "higher" industry, thinking that because he's been making car parts or tank turrets or airplanes or speedboats it's just got to be simpler making bikes. What these people don't realize is that the tolerances one must hold in this business are at least as close as as in just about any other industry. Consider this: I (when I was in the biz) would reject cranksets if the total runout exceeded one tenth of one millimeter at the large chainring. That means the bottom bracket, and the squarehole cut into the crank, must be absolutely perfect, and the crankarm absolutely straight. It means the metal must be sufficiently hard at that joint so as not to deflect under the heavily leveraged load applied at the pedal. Very, very hard to do.

Likewise, frames are hard to make, if you want them to be straight. It's very hard to make a frame in which the rear wheel is centered inside the chainstays, and centered underneath the rear brake hole, and where the front and rear triangle are true to each other, and where the head tube is parallel to the seat tube. It's so hard to do that, that I've seen manufacturing companies that make very precision car parts just throw up their hands after years of trying to make frames and say, "It can't be done."

That's why cycling is its own industry, and those who do it well can command a premium. The smart product manager or agent knows what it's safe to have have manufactured at a non-cycling facility, and when you've got to go to a factory that knows the bike biz.

So...............I just hope these 'Chinarello' makers et al KNOW what they're doing, or are they just making a killing, pun intended ! I've no problem with them making and selling bikes but DON'T pass them off as other people's brands, that's just plain ridiculous, and anyone who buys one should be sent to China to work for a $1 a day for the next 50 years.

Lumen

Morrisseeee wrote: »

I'll copy & paste from Junior's link:

So...............I just hope these 'Chinarello' makers et al KNOW what they're doing, or are they just making a killing, pun intended ! I've no problem with them making and selling bikes but DON'T pass them off as other people's brands, that's just plain ridiculous, and anyone who buys one should be sent to China to work for a $1 a day for the next 50 years.

You seem to be contradicting your own quote, which says that making a straight carbon frame is so incredibly hard to do that no-one but high-volume frame manufacturers can do it.

Icyseanfitz

the only real company that makes its own bikes is giant, every other company either uses an asian company or giant (which is also asian btw), that part of the world is actually properly good at making cf frames (its not just the cheap labour) which is why they are all made there.

as for hung fu bikes, the price their charging would probably be seen as a fair sum of money where their from and even here that isnt bso money. I wont knock them until ive tried them (which i hopefully will next year)

The only thing a brand gives me comfort in is that i will get a good resale if i want to sell it, and some (not all) brands give you a good warranty.

Either way big brand cf bikes are probably just as breakable as any other cf bike, take the bike out for a cycle where there isnt much traffic (aka danger) and trash it around a bit, if its crap it will probably fail as thats the nature of cf

Zippe

This is just what i think ! Could put your head down and come down a hill at 70/80k+ on a bike that never went through a safty test,I would like to have went for a chinaerllo dogma for $500 instead of the €4500 that I paid for a pinarello dogma,I know price comes into things but why not buy a lower spec bike that has pasted a safty test,I could not afford a dogma as a trainning bike so I went for a pinarello fp2,they can all crack and brake but it's when it can happen,don't get me wrong the chinaerllo dogma look good but not the same as the "pinarello Dogma" but I would not chance it,it's not only your self your putting at risk,if your in a race or a club spin if your bike fails you will bring down more than just your self,the pinarello bikes seem to be the most common copies I see out there on the net for sale,If you get one keep it for the spins you do by your self,I read up on all this on other sites and of steer tubes snapping at speed,you would spend what you save in A&E,start at the bottom and work your way up to the top end bikes as you can,I had fp1,fp2,fp3 and then dogma when I could,

Zip,

Head The Wall

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

In fairness though, in many cases its the Italians and French who are designing these monocoque frames.

I agree though that the Made in X thing is a complete farce.

In the chicken processing business they call this "major transformation"