fake bike frames

michael196

is there such a thing?

buzz around certain parts about fake frames purchased from the land of Schezuan ?

Icyseanfitz

do you mean Chinese? if so funnily enough some of the big brands are selling bikes with the same frames (with a nice paint scheme) as to what you could get off hong fu bikes for 400 euro at over a 1000 euro

michael196

yes chineese, just trying to stay on the right side of the moderator, . Is there a lot of them in the country ?


surely a risky investment ?

Icyseanfitz

meh a lot of the big carbon frames are made in china any way, a couple of the lads here have bought from these guys and the bikes have turned out lovely, tbh i find carbon bikes annoying as the mark up on brand alone can be stupidly nuts.

a lot of the frames on that site are the exactly same as to what youd buy from some big manufacturers just without the brand.

maybe one or two of the guys who own the bikes can tell you about them, il probably get one next year just to see what there like

Beasty

Yes there are fakes. Yes you are taking a risk buying them - you don't know if they could be "seconds", or poor copies. Do a search on "Chinarello".

Yes there are some that posters have found to be very good value - again a search of "Hong Fu" should get you to a thread about this "brand"

Unless you know exactly what you are purchasing, I would suggest steering clear, as your chances of any comeback if anything goes wrong are pretty low

bcmf

The only failure on these frames have been on the steerer tube and this has been down to incorrect installation of the headset.I haven't seen one spontaneously explode when the wind went against you. Thats not to say they havent exploded.

michael196

i just cannot believe people actually buy these .......... its like wanting to know that ur front skewer is tight as u race downhill........with a known fake ..who knows what will hapeen next ?

Icyseanfitz

yeah i wouldnt mtb on one of them but id definitely try the road ones, i mean look at the crap people are already able to cycle on the roads without dying

niceonetom

It's a slightly complicated area. People are taking generic open-mould chinese carbon frames and putting decals and stickers on them making them look like Italian thoroughbreds. The thing is, some of the people slapping the decals on are the Italian companies themselves:


is actually this xpace



It's also sold by Ribble as the Stealth, and by Pedalforce as something else.

There's a big difference between that and the Chinarello phenomenon. Pinerello have nothing to do with that and the frame under those decals is different from the actual dogmas (which are, of course, made in China also).

The murkiness of these waters does explain why some will tell you that all frames coming out of China are functionally identical and that paying top whack for Giovanni to apply decals and add €1500 to the price so enough value is added to qualify as "made in Italy" even though it is anything but. I don't think that's the case though. When a company like De Rosa (or Ribble, Ritte, Planet-X or Pedalforce or anyone else doing this) puts their decals on a frame they're essentially vouching for it. If it breaks it's on them. So, there's your quality control - for the chinarellos there is none.

Lumen

michael196 wrote: »

i just cannot believe people actually buy these .......... its like wanting to know that ur front skewer is tight as u race downhill........with a known fake ..who knows what will hapeen next ?

Indeed. I ride only the best Trek frames and Mavic wheels, thus guaranteeing I will never have an unexpected failure.

gman2k

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

yeah i wouldnt mtb on one of them but id definitely try the road ones, i mean look at the crap people are already able to cycle on the roads without dying

I have a Chinese hardtail mtb, rock solid for over a year now, and has taken a hammering on most of the Coillte trails in the country and worse....
You'd be mad to spend money on a branded carbon hardtail IMO when these are much better value.

davey101

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

yeah i wouldnt mtb on one of them but id definitely try the road ones, i mean look at the crap people are already able to cycle on the roads without dying

I know a number of people who have these as mtbs and some regularly win races on them, Personally I would be more concerned about using one on the road, greater speeds = alot more damaged bones.
What I suspect is going on with these frames is that they are probably made using the same moulds as branded models but maybe there is less carbon applied to each bike, just an assumption really.
But on the other hand I heard a story before of a rep who was getting a machine manufactured in china and when on a trip to see how production was going he spotted the exact same machine in different colours at another end of the factory! cheeky beggers. But this is the norm in china they copy blatantly and see it as acceptable to do so, on that note we may never know if these frames are exact copies or not. I probably would buy one if i ever needed a frame and not wanting to spend too much that is.

bcmf

I have ridden 2 'fake' frames. I am a fat bastard sprinter type of guy.
I go downhill like a hot snot off a hot butter knife ..and uphill like a snail.... and never had an issue nor did I hold back and I am still alive.
If you wanna spend a grand on a carbon frame spend a grand.If you wanna spend a couple of hundred spend a couple of hundred.

coolbeans

bcmf wrote: »

The only failure on these frames have been on the steerer tube and this has been down to incorrect installation of the headset.I haven't seen one spontaneously explode when the wind went against you. Thats not to say they havent exploded.

How do you know that's the only failure in fairness? Loads have been shipped and I am sure many people are happy but when you're heading downhill at near 80kmh you wanna be confident that some chancer hasn't taken a shortcut. You just don't know with these frames.

michael196

i guess manufacturers that make their stuff in house only and not subcontract to asia, are the only ones u can realy trust, to be real frames.

bcmf

coolbeans wrote: »

How do you know that's the only failure in fairness? Loads have been shipped and I am sure many people are happy but when you're heading downhill at near 80kmh you wanna be confident that some chancer hasn't taken a shortcut. You just don't know with these frames.

In fairness I dont but how do we know that a <insert €1000 brand name here> hasnt either.
I have seen a very well known handlebar and stem manufacturer stem fail on a guy on a downhill causing him brain damage. Big brands can fail just as much as unbranded.
And Yes I get the crash replacement thing.
As has been pointed out on other forums by some other guys who have bought a chinese unbranded frame. They buy a frame for $400 to race on and if they crash and write it off they buy a new one and it's another $400 etc. If they buy a <insert $1000 brand name here> and some fooker stands on the brakes and causes a pile up and they write it off its lets say another $500.
FWIW (sorry Quigs)IMO I wouldn't go near the Pina clones as they have simply become too popular and am of the belief that production is struggling to keep up with demand

bcmf

michael196 wrote: »

i guess manufacturers that make their stuff in house only and not subcontract to asia, are the only ones u can realy trust, to be real frames.

Pinarello have admitted their frames are made in Asia and only finished (painted ??) in Italy.
Ribble / Planet X are the same.

coolbeans

bcmf wrote: »

coolbeans wrote: »

How do you know that's the only failure in fairness? Loads have been shipped and I am sure many people are happy but when you're heading downhill at near 80kmh you wanna be confident that some chancer hasn't taken a shortcut. You just don't know with these frames.

In fairness I dont but how do we know that a <insert €1000 brand name here> hasnt either.
I have seen a very well known handlebar and stem manufacturer stem fail on a guy on a downhill causing him brain damage. Big brands can fail just as much as unbranded.
And Yes I get the crash replacement thing.
As has been pointed out on other forums by some other guys who have bought a chinese unbranded frame. They buy a frame for $400 to race on and if they crash and write it off they buy a new one and it's another $400 etc. If they buy a <insert $1000 brand name here> and some fooker stands on the brakes and causes a pile up and they write it off its lets say another $500.
FWIW (sorry Quigs)IMO I wouldn't go near the Pina clones as they have simply become too popular and am of the belief that production is struggling to keep up with demand

Everything made by man can fail but the quality control process of a well known brand makes failure far less likely. I just think it's undeniable that these frames are a risk from a safety perspective.

bcmf

sure.
As I said before. Want a €1k frame buy a €1k frame.

coolbeans

bcmf wrote: »

sure.
As I said before. Want a €1k frame buy a €1k frame.

Confidence in safety is priceless. When I think of Charbon bikes I think of some of he disastrous Chinese cars launched recently. They're appalling in a crash, even the copies.

bcmf

....So are chrysler's ncap rating. AFAIK they are not chinese.
Anyway I don't wanna get into an argument as capitalism dictates we can choose what we want.

bcmf

coolbeans wrote: »

I just think it's undeniable that these frames are a risk from a safety perspective.

How is it undeniable?
I personally know of 2 high end frames that developed faults/cracks through ordinary use. Was the QC person asleep that day?
The fact that most of the carbon frames, both branded and unbranded,come from only a handful of factories coupled with the popularity and quantity that unbranded frames have sold/are now selling would lead me to believe that if the unbranded frame started to disentegrate I would guarantee that a few brand names would start to get nervous about the their own frames quality since they more then likely originated from the same production line.
Companies like Hong Fu unbranded, low quantity orders/sales now account for a nice percentage of their overall sales. So much so that they developed the e-hong fu site dedicated to that end of the sales. When I bought my 1st one they only had the 1 wholesale site. They stand to lose more then they gain from low quality QC.
The law of average's will dictate that there will be a failure ,as you point out. That rule of failure applies to both high cost frames as well as the low cost. The only real difference is that if you end up picking your teeth off the ground with a brand name you have a name you can try and sue. But if you are buying direct then you should have your eyes wide open. However throw a brand on it,get some public liability insurance and you become a PX/Ribble/Pedalforce - very simplistically put but you get the idea!

Lumen

coolbeans wrote: »

Charbon bikes I think of some of he disastrous Chinese cars launched recently. They're appalling in a crash, even the copies.

The major difference is that the Taiwanese/Chinese are the worlds experts on engineering carbon fibre bicycle frames. The same is not true of car platform engineering, AFAIK.

I suspect that the western input to most frames is limited to styling concerns.

Wheely GR8

The issue of carbon frames coming from china is something that stopped me from rushing into buying a carbon bike. I don't care if a frame is made in china tbh ,but I'd like to know what I'm paying for.

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

There's a big difference between that and the Chinarello phenomenon. Pinarello have nothing to do with that and the frame under those decals is different from the actual dogmas (which are, of course, made in China also).

Tom hits the nail on the head here over the confusion that crops up every time this issue is discussed. There's a big difference between frames manufactured by what's effectively an original design manufacturer which are licensed to other brands and frames that are unlicensed knock-offs of other frames.

Perhaps the best analogy is the difference between a phone manufactured by HTC and sold as a T-Mobile or Vodafone handset and a fake iPhone.

I'd be very wary of buying a frame whose primary design goal is to look like something else.

dave2pvd

michael196 wrote: »

i guess manufacturers that make their stuff in house only and not subcontract to asia, are the only ones u can realy trust, to be real frames.

Asia? It's a big place isn't it? Perhaps you perceive a lack of know-how, skill, intelligence, integrity or <insert positive character trait> lacking in people from this vast quadrant of the planet called Asia?

Would you refuse to buy something that comes from Japan? What about Taiwan? You know Taiwan are the world's leading manufacturer of high quality CF frames, right? Do you know that it was the Taiwanese that commercialized mass production of CF frames? And what about high modulus full monocoque frames (Specialized, Giant, Trek, Cannondale, Scott,...)? Where in the world are you going to find such an item other than Taiwan and China?

So who are these manufacturers that you really trust? I'd like to know. I wonder if they employ anyone of Asian descent in their Western factories :eek: ?

gman2k

Wheely GR8 wrote: »

The issue of carbon frames coming from china is something that stopped me from rushing into buying a carbon bike. I don't care if a frame is made in china tbh ,but I'd like to know what I'm paying for.

I'd be wary of buying a Carbon frame that was not made in china/ Taiwan at this stage, as that's where the knowledge and expertise lies.

AstraMonti

Trek's top of the line are made 100% in US. So you would prefer a generic chinese carbon from a 6.7 madone?

Wheely GR8

gman2k wrote: »

I'd be wary of buying a Carbon frame that was not made in china/ Taiwan at this stage, as that's where the knowledge and expertise lies.

I was told the really light carbon frames are the ones made by the actual bike companies ,it sounded like in china they over do the strenght to compensate for extreme stresses.

As I said ,it wouldn't matter to me where the frame was ,I just don't want to be paying for paint.

Lumen

Wheely GR8 wrote: »

I was told the really light carbon frames are the ones made by the actual bike companies ,it sounded like in china they over do the strenght to compensate for extreme stresses.

Can you name any of the "actual bike companies" making CF frames outside of China or Taiwan?

I know of Cippolini (Italy) and Trek (USA). And maybe BMC (Switzerland). And maybe that Mclaren Venge monstrosity.

dave2pvd

AstraMonti wrote: »

Trek's top of the line are made 100% in US. So you would prefer a generic chinese carbon from a 6.7 madone?

Maybe. If so, it's just a small fraction of their frames (OCLV).

However, I suspect this may have changed. Notice the delightfully vague statement they now have on their website:


"Is my bike made in the USA?

We continue to produce many of our bicycles in the US with a focus on our higher-end OCLV carbon fiber offerings. All of our bikes are designed and engineered at our headquarters in Waterloo, Wisconsin though select road, ATB, comfort, hybrid, urban and kids' bikes are produced by Trek-specific overseas vendors. Bicycles produced overseas follow the same stringent quality standards as our domestically built bikes. No matter where your bike is produced quality is stock on every Trek built".

I would be suspicious. The above reads like what you'd see in Irish Times' property supplement.