Mount Elliot Railway Tunnel

Victor

Merged.

Partizan

Waterford-Macmine Junction fascinating pics but one of the many pointless railway lines that sprung up in the late 19th/early 20th century. Correct decision was made in 1963 to shut it and rip it up, however many viable lines suffered as well when Mad Todd Andrews went on a Texas Chainsaw Massacre style rampage.

dermo88

Partizan

"when Mad Todd Andrews went on a Texas Chainsaw Massacre style rampage"

To dismiss Todd Andrews as mad and to describe his work as a chainsaw massacre is emotive. Richard Beeching did the same in Britain. It was pruning of a tree to ensure that the whole tree survived. Thats what we have today.

Hindsight is a great teacher. Given the choice, one route that survives today from Todd Andrews era would go, namely Limerick to Nenagh and Ballybrophy.

Waterford to Tramore would survive
Clonsilla to Navan

Not much else. Many "viable" lines. Not many at all to be honest. Nice for enthusiasts perhaps, but for travellers, nope......sad to say.

Beyond that, the present network, and it would be nice to cooperate with Northern Ireland and allow Portadown-Omagh-Derry to survive also, and thrive.

But beyond that, every single decision he made, I agree with, in the context of its time.

Judgement Day

dermo - Todd Andrews was an FF muck savage who along with Erskine Childers nearly killed off the Irish railway system completely - no more needs to be said. Stay off the sauce.

ardmacha

But beyond that, every single decision he made, I agree with, in the context of its time.

Harcourt Street?

Partizan

dermo88 wrote: »

Partizan

"when Mad Todd Andrews went on a Texas Chainsaw Massacre style rampage"

To dismiss Todd Andrews as mad and to describe his work as a chainsaw massacre is emotive. Richard Beeching did the same in Britain. It was pruning of a tree to ensure that the whole tree survived. Thats what we have today.

Hindsight is a great teacher. Given the choice, one route that survives today from Todd Andrews era would go, namely Limerick to Nenagh and Ballybrophy.

Waterford to Tramore would survive
Clonsilla to Navan

Not much else. Many "viable" lines. Not many at all to be honest. Nice for enthusiasts perhaps, but for travellers, nope......sad to say.

Beyond that, the present network, and it would be nice to cooperate with Northern Ireland and allow Portadown-Omagh-Derry to survive also, and thrive.

But beyond that, every single decision he made, I agree with, in the context of its time.

Sorry dermo, but I disagree with you there. The closing down of the Harcourt St line was an eact of economic sabotage not to mention shutting down the West Cork line which deprived a whole swath of the south west without any proper transport infrastructure which had a terrible knock on effect in the region in terms of economic development.

dermo88

I am being objective in my thinking with regard to Todd Andrews. It has to be seen in the context of its time, rather that the benefit of hindsight.

No railway in Europe was making a profit. It was looking like an increasingly outmoded transportation mode, particularly on low traffic routes.

The closing down of the Harcourt St line was an act of economic sabotage

Within a few years, that was evident, but in the context of Dublin in 1958, hardly so. The development, expansion and road congestion was not envisaged at that time. Bear in mind there was mass emigration, a falling population, and generally - in many cases the role of the rail network was to carry passengers to one destination. The Boat train platform at Carlisle Pier.

Economic sabotage....hardly. Remember, there were 120 passengers per day using the Harcourt Street line, which had an hourly service. Hardly intense usage by any means.

By 1974, with the first oil crisis, and the need for cheaper alternatives to the private car, increased traffic congestion in Dublin, it was evident that it was a mistake.

Judgement Day

Todd Andrews was an FF muck savage who along with Erskine Childers nearly killed off the Irish railway system completely

Wrong - massive wholesale investments were made, including the Craven coaches, the GM locomotive fleet, and the replacement of steam. Unit trains and container trains were introduced, and one person operation of trains. All in all, the measures taken under his tenure brought CIE to within 250,000 Pounds of breaking even by 1964. All this while passenger numbers grew on a shrinking mileage.

West Cork.....it was a glorified freight railway. Top speeds on it were around 50mph, and it was coming up for renewal. Its axleload tolerances were poor. It would not have survived beyond 1976 in any other European country, and I include rail friendly nations such as Germany and France there. Even they have made cutbacks.

Nearly killed it off. Sometimes rotten branches have to be cut, so that the tree survives. Thats what happened.

purplepanda

With the Barrow Road bridge / New Ross bypass N25 crossing project now in mothballs & not likely to start for a decade or more & considering the very substantial costs involved, one day it might be worthwhile considering much cheaper alternatives for transport in the region.

The South Wexford line should never have been closed unless the Barrow River road crossing went ahead, also anyone familiar with New Ross traffic congestion wouldn't mind the rail link to Waterford being rebuilt either, including the NR rail bridge continuing to a Park & Ride station somewhere east of the town.

Rebuilding & reopening these rail links would be but a fraction of the costs of the planned NR bypass bridge, how much has been wasted on that project already in planning & costs of land purchase? I doubt if it will be built in 20 years time!


Hindsight is a wonderful thing Hopefully, if the money ever becomes available it is spent more wisely next time. Unless FF gets back into power :mad:

Seems the government is now telling the councils involved that the bypass is still on track, the sort of rubbish they tell West on Track campaigners when they demand the WRC extends northwards http://www.newrossstandard.ie/news/bypass-project-hasnt-stalled-2895189.html

Judgement Day

dermo88 wrote: »

I am being objective in my thinking with regard to Todd Andrews. It has to be seen in the context of its time, rather that the benefit of hindsight.

No railway in Europe was making a profit. It was looking like an increasingly outmoded transportation mode, particularly on low traffic routes.

The closing down of the Harcourt St line was an act of economic sabotage

Within a few years, that was evident, but in the context of Dublin in 1958, hardly so. The development, expansion and road congestion was not envisaged at that time. Bear in mind there was mass emigration, a falling population, and generally - in many cases the role of the rail network was to carry passengers to one destination. The Boat train platform at Carlisle Pier.

Economic sabotage....hardly. Remember, there were 120 passengers per day using the Harcourt Street line, which had an hourly service. Hardly intense usage by any means.

By 1974, with the first oil crisis, and the need for cheaper alternatives to the private car, increased traffic congestion in Dublin, it was evident that it was a mistake.

Judgement Day

Todd Andrews was an FF muck savage who along with Erskine Childers nearly killed off the Irish railway system completely

Wrong - massive wholesale investments were made, including the Craven coaches, the GM locomotive fleet, and the replacement of steam. Unit trains and container trains were introduced, and one person operation of trains. All in all, the measures taken under his tenure brought CIE to within 250,000 Pounds of breaking even by 1964. All this while passenger numbers grew on a shrinking mileage.

West Cork.....it was a glorified freight railway. Top speeds on it were around 50mph, and it was coming up for renewal. Its axleload tolerances were poor. It would not have survived beyond 1976 in any other European country, and I include rail friendly nations such as Germany and France there. Even they have made cutbacks.

Nearly killed it off. Sometimes rotten branches have to be cut, so that the tree survives. Thats what happened.

If you lop too many branches off any tree the trunk itself dies. The wholesale investments you refer to would have had to been made by whoever was running CIE as it had inherited an ancient collection of motive power and rolling stock. As for one person operation of trains - what do you mean? It's only in very recent times that this has come into force. As for containerisation - this too was long after Todd Andrews. The West Cork lines had a lot of track renewal work carried out prior to closure and the railway was busy with both passengers and freight.

The Harcourt Street line closure was an utter folly which Todd Andrews pushed through due to his 'class' hatred of what he saw as a railway operating to facilitate a few Protestant solicitors who lived in Foxrock. Many people at the time protested against the closure and put forward alternatives - I've read newspaper articles of the day so it's not hindsight - but this was the era when the politician, the church and Fianna Fail were revered.

Where does your figure of 120 passengers per day come from? I seem to remember that the annual figure was quite respectable and, of course, took into account race and seaside traffic. Anyway, it's all irrelevant now as is the rail system outside Greater Dublin.

ajay 83

Iv been in the tunnel many times. You can access it easy enough from both sides. The easiest side is at Rosemount Stud lodge. Its creepy and damp and extremely dangerous! But great fun when your young:)

nlgbbbblth

Walked through it with flaming torches and a bag of cans on the night we finished our Inter Cert, 1987. Then back over the red bridge.

Trick of the Tail

I've been through it too. It's waterlogged at the northern end, but after a period of dry weather it's navigable.

It's interesting that you can still see the signs of pick axes having been used to dig it on the Rock sides and ceiling.

The southern end is the easiest to get to, just climb up the bank opposite the alignment that goes to the bridge, where the small road bridge used to be.

Victor

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

It's interesting that you can still see the signs of pick axes having been used to dig it on the Rock sides and ceiling.

Are you sure? I suspect a pick axe would have limited effect on solid rock.

Trick of the Tail

Well that's what I assumed the markings are!

It's sandstone I think, so hand tools may well have been used back then.

gobnaitolunacy

Those marks were made by 'drills', not a Black & Decker from B&Q.... but a chisel-like thing that you'd have to drive with a sledge hammer for finishing off an area that had been blasted out.

twomint

Sorry to drag this one back up but looking for a bit of information.

I visited the tunnel recently and very impressive it is too -

1.


2.


3.


The northern portal -


Now above the portal on the right hand side as you look is a memorial plaque -

Does anyone know what happened to Nicholas Coady on 15th December 1930 ? I've tried looking on the interweb but can only find reference to him in the 1911 census.

Losty Dublin

twomint wrote: »

Sorry to drag this one back up but looking for a bit of information.


Does anyone know what happened to Nicholas Coady on 15th December 1930 ? I've tried looking on the interweb but can only find reference to him in the 1911 census.

I'd guess that he was killed on or by a train around there. If you dropped an e mail to the IRRS, they may have a record of what happened to him.

twomint

Thanks for that Losty, will give it a try.

Have to admit that some sort of accident like getting hit by a train did cross my mind but when I went looking for any information I found nothing.

The memorial doesn't look that old either so was just intrigued as to what the back story was and who put it on the portal.

Losty Dublin

twomint wrote: »

Thanks for that Losty, will give it a try.

Have to admit that some sort of accident like getting hit by a train did cross my mind but when I went looking for any information I found nothing.

The memorial doesn't look that old either so was just intrigued as to what the back story was and who put it on the portal.

Drop me a PM; I'll see what I can do for you.

twomint

PM sent Losty

nlgbbbblth

Twomint
I've posted a link to your photo post on the Facebook page Things You Miss About New Ross. I've also repeated the question about Nicholas Coady so somebody may answer it there.

twomint

Thanks a million for that nlg.

The full set of the pics of the tunnel are here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/cunningcorgi/

Wex10 to Wex27

Hopefully somebody somewhere will be able to fill in the details of this one !

Cheers

nlgbbbblth

One of the members has given me the following information:

Coady family were from Waterford. Nicholas was killed in an explosion at the tunnel [presumably while working there].

twomint

Thanks nlg.

Very sad outcome for the man.

whisky_galore

There are a number of railside memorials along Irish Rail lines, usually just a simple iron cross without names or dates.