Belief is not about 'your opinions'

tommy2bad · 13-11-2011 7:09pm #1

Belief is not about 'your opinions', and being 'constructive'.

Newsite posted this, possibly as a throwaway remark in the course of a discussion but it had me staring at the screen trying to figure out if he meant it as it sounds.
If belief isn't about your opinions, whose opinions is it about?
Or is it even as reasoned as an opinion, Is belief a gut reaction?

antiskeptic · 13-11-2011 7:23pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Newsite posted this, possibly as a throwaway remark in the course of a discussion but it had me staring at the screen trying to figure out if he meant it as it sounds.
If belief isn't about your opinions, whose opinions is it about?
Or is it even as reasoned as an opinion, Is belief a gut reaction?

I believe the world is round. It's an opinon I hold. There are reasons I hold the opinion I do. It would seem that belief is based on reasoning.

Whether it's worth starting a whole new thread on the subject, is a matter of opinion however.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 7:29pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

I believe the world is round. It's an opinon I hold. There are reasons I hold the opinion I do. It would seem that belief is based on reasoning.

Whether it's worth starting a whole new thread on the subject, is a matter of opinion however.

But if you had been told all your life by everyone you knew and trusted that the world was flat; then such would be your belief and you would believe it was based on reasoning. Belief, no matter how tightly held or highly prized, is not necessarily borne out by fact.

This applies across the board, equally, to us all and must be an acknowledged starting point for any discussion.

alex73 · 13-11-2011 7:37pm

Christ never preached the world was round or flat.

Faith that Christ gave his apostles is a way of life on the road to him. As a Catholic what I believe has 3 elements, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Living Magisterium. Once you understand each element it becomes clear what is set in stone by Christ which must be accepted if you want salvation.

tommy2bad · 13-11-2011 7:47pm

Whether it's worth starting a whole new thread on the subject, is a matter of opinion however.

Well OK , I think it is, because I reason that derailing the other thread isn't worth doing and the discussion may appeal to people who haven't read the other thread.
Belief doesn't come into it as the term is used in a faith context. Language may be getting in the way of discourse here. I am assuming Newsite was referring to belief as faith not as a formed opinion. What struck me about the remark was that accepting a faith would seem to me to require some level of opinion so saying its not about opinion is arguing from a point that others may not have reached and possibly a position that believers have forgotten they once stood in.
I myself haven't gotten past qualifying my belief as faith, an opinion I hold.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 7:51pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Newsite posted this, possibly as a throwaway remark in the course of a discussion but it had me staring at the screen trying to figure out if he meant it as it sounds.
If belief isn't about your opinions, whose opinions is it about?
Or is it even as reasoned as an opinion, Is belief a gut reaction?

What I mean is that there is your truth, and there is your opinion. When you open a newspaper on a Sunday, there are factual pieces, and there is opinion. So 'the interest rate rose by x% yesterday' - is a fact.

'I predict that the construction industry will grow in 2014' - that's an opinion.

So in the context of that thread, what I meant was that you can have all sorts of opinions about all sorts of things, but that doesn't make any difference when it comes to truth, and has no bearing on it. So 'believing' is not about your own spin on things, e.g. a Catholic who believes that sex outside marriage 'isn't that big a deal'. That's your opinion.

tommy2bad · 13-11-2011 7:54pm

Christ never preached the world was round or flat.

He would have been thought mad if He said it was flat.

Once you understand each element it becomes clear what is set in stone by Christ which must be accepted if you want salvation.

Alex73 Yes once you understand. So faith is not an opinion then? But you include 3 things to base your reasoning on, why not 4 or 5 or 1.
What I'm trying to get at is how much blind faith is needed to start down that road to Christ.
I'm not knocking anyones beliefs just trying to ascertain my own.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 7:55pm

alex73 wrote: »

Christ never preached the world was round or flat.

I never suggested Christ had, why take it off topic and then tell me your belief?

Faith that Christ gave his apostles is a way of life on the road to him.

That means nothing to me now, I wasn't there 2000 years ago when all of this went on, alledgedly.

As a Catholic what I believe has 3 elements, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Living Magisterium.

Good for you, no idea what your talking about though.

Once you understand each element it becomes clear what is set in stone by Christ which must be accepted if you want salvation.

Nothing could be less clear than that to me right now! Do ya see where I'm coming from at all?

.

tommy2bad · 13-11-2011 8:00pm

Catholic who believes that sex outside marriage 'isn't that big a deal'. That's your opinion.

Indeed I agree but it may also be their belief. The facts as read by them may not be read the same way by others who hold their belief's to be just as valid.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 8:04pm

Newsite wrote: »

What I mean is that there is your truth, and there is your opinion. When you open a newspaper on a Sunday, there are factual pieces, and there is opinion. So 'the interest rate rose by x% yesterday' - is a fact.

'I predict that the construction industry will grow in 2014' - that's an opinion.

So in the context of that thread, what I meant was that you can have all sorts of opinions about all sorts of things, but that doesn't make any difference when it comes to truth (except when that truth is different to the one you held to be the truth, always a possibility) and has no bearing on it. So 'believing' is not about your own spin on things, e.g. a Catholic who believes that sex outside marriage 'isn't that big a deal'. That's your opinion.

.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 8:09pm

The point I'm trying to make is that there are as many truths as there are people to conceive them, each truth held up to be the one by the individual believer of that particular truth or the other.
Does that make sense to anyone?

tommy2bad · 13-11-2011 8:10pm

Yeah as Simtech pointed out one mans truth is another mans heresy.
Even allowing for that level of interpretation at some point it's the opinion of the reader that makes one true and another false.
Truth in the eye of the beholder?

alex73 · 13-11-2011 8:17pm

Simtech wrote: »

Good for you, no idea what your talking about though.

Ok, you have prove a point. How can you have an opinion on my faith if you don't know it?

Simtech · 13-11-2011 8:19pm

alex73 wrote: »

Ok, you have prove a point. How can you have an opinion on my faith if you don't know it?

That's not the question. The question is how can I form an opinion on your faith if you will not guide me.

Dudess · 13-11-2011 8:22pm

Well belief and opinion aren't the same thing. A belief is something that's either correct or incorrect or unprovable. An opinion is a subjective point of view that's neither right nor wrong - e.g. "Jimi Hendrix is the best guitarist of all time in my opinion".

Simtech · 13-11-2011 8:26pm

Dudess wrote: »

Well belief and opinion aren't the same thing. A belief is something that's either correct or incorrect or unprovable. An opinion is a subjective point of view that's neither right nor wrong - e.g. "Jimi Hendrix is the best guitarist of all time in my opinion".

A belief is an opinion held to be self evident truth.

Belief is often held regardless of weather or not that truth can be reasonably established in fact.

Jimi's good alright, I'll give ya that!

tommy2bad · 13-11-2011 8:34pm

Jimi Hendrix is the best guitarist of all time Full Stop

See how I save you from heresy their

Newsite · 13-11-2011 9:06pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Indeed I agree but it may also be their belief. The facts as read by them may not be read the same way by others who hold their belief's to be just as valid.

Simtech wrote: »

.

Simtech wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that there are as many truths as there are people to conceive them, each truth held up to be the one by the individual believer of that particular truth or the other.
Does that make sense to anyone?

What you're leaving out is that without the Holy Spirit acting in you, you won't understand, and things won't make sense, and there is confusion. Understanding is not down to anything you do:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is why the Atheists/Agnostics forum exists, and why people talk about how the Bible contradicts itself, and why we 'cherry-pick what we want to believe', and so forth.

Here is a beautiful commentary on the above verse:

The apostles were not guided by worldly principles. They had the revelation of these things from the Spirit of God, and the saving impression of them from the same Spirit. These things they declared in plain, simple language, taught by the Holy Spirit, totally different from the affected oratory or enticing words of man's wisdom. The natural man, the wise man of the world, receives not the things of the Spirit of God. The pride of carnal reasoning is really as much opposed to spirituality, as the basest sensuality. The sanctified mind discerns the real beauties of holiness, but the power of discerning and judging about common and natural things is not lost.

But the carnal man is a stranger to the principles, and pleasures, and actings of the Divine life. The spiritual man only, is the person to whom God gives the knowledge of his will. How little have any known of the mind of God by natural power! And the apostles were enabled by his Spirit to make known his mind. In the Holy Scriptures, the mind of Christ, and the mind of God in Christ, are fully made known to us. It is the great privilege of Christians, that they have the mind of Christ revealed to them by his Spirit. They experience his sanctifying power in their hearts, and bring forth good fruits in their lives.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 9:18pm

Newsite wrote: »

What you're leaving out is that without the Holy Spirit acting in you, you won't understand, and things won't make sense, and there is confusion. Understanding is not down to anything you do:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So the natural man, lets assume I am he, cannot know the things of the Spirit of God? For him they are forbidden

This is why the Atheists/Agnostics forum exists, and why people talk about how the Bible contradicts itself, and why we 'cherry-pick what we want to believe', and so forth.

Here is a beautiful commentary on the above verse:

"The spiritual man only, is the person to whom God gives the knowledge of his will."

So again the 'natural man' is excluded.

"It is the great privilege of Christians, that they have the mind of Christ revealed to them by his Spirit."

But not the privilege of the 'natural man'? He is purposefully excluded from having the mind of Christ revealed to him?

Therefore 'natural man' must rely on Christians to guide him/her/them to God "and bring forth good fruits in their lives."?

Does that make sense?

Newsite · 13-11-2011 9:26pm

Simtech wrote: »

"The spiritual man only, is the person to whom God gives the knowledge of his will."

So again the 'natural man' is excluded.

"It is the great privilege of Christians, that they have the mind of Christ revealed to them by his Spirit."

But not the privilege of the 'natural man'? He is purposefully excluded from having the mind of Christ revealed to him?

Does that make sense?

The 'natural man' and the 'spiritual man' are actually the same person. Everyone has a 'natural' birth. But to be saved through the grace of God, you must be 'born again'. John 3:7: 'Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again'.

The natural man is in darkness, whether he knows it or not. Why do you think people are always 'searching', that they don't really know who God is but they like to think 'there is something'. Why do you think the shelves of Eason's are chock-full of books on spirituality and new-age this and that?

So if the natural man is in darkness, he is there and helpless, and needs God to bring him into the light, so that he is 'born again', born 'of the Spirit', and becomes the 'spiritual man' - not focussed on earthly things above spiritual things.

Simtech wrote: »

Therefore 'natural man' must rely on Christians to guide them to God?

Not rely on Christians, but as above, on God, and his Grace.

Ye must be born again - To be born again, is to be inwardly changed from all sinfulness to all holiness. It is fitly so called, because as great a change then passes on the soul as passes on the body when it is born into the world.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 9:29pm

Newsite wrote: »

The 'natural man' and the 'spiritual man' are actually the same person. Everyone has a 'natural' birth. But to be saved through the grace of God, you must be 'born again'. John 3:7: 'Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again'.

The natural man is in darkness, whether he knows it or not. Why do you think people are always 'searching', that they don't really know who God is but they like to think 'there is something'. Why do you think the shelves of Eason's are chock-full of books on spirituality and new-age this and that?

So if the natural man is in darkness, he is there and helpless, and needs God to bring him into the light, so that he is 'born again', born 'of the Spirit', and becomes the 'spiritual man' - not focussed on earthly things above spiritual things.

Not rely on Christians, but as above, on God, and his Grace.

You haven't addressed any of my questions above. We cannot move forward until you do.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 9:54pm

Simtech wrote: »

You haven't addressed any of my questions above. We cannot move forward until you do.

I believe I did. But if you want to ask again, then let me know which ones you are talking about.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 10:04pm

Newsite wrote: »

I believe I did. But if you want to ask again, then let me know which ones you are talking about.

Firstly; (from post # 19)"What you're leaving out is that without the Holy Spirit acting in you, you won't understand, and things won't make sense, and there is confusion. Understanding is not down to anything you do:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So the natural man, lets assume I am he, cannot know the things of the Spirit of God? For him they are forbidden, neither can he know them? This is what could be discerned from the text above. Do you agree?

Newsite · 13-11-2011 10:13pm

Simtech wrote: »

Firstly; (from post # 19)"What you're leaving out is that without the Holy Spirit acting in you, you won't understand, and things won't make sense, and there is confusion. Understanding is not down to anything you do:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So the natural man, lets assume I am he, cannot know the things of the Spirit of God? For him they are forbidden, neither can he know them? This is what could be discerned from the text above. Do you agree?

It's 'they are foolishness', not 'they are forbidden'. Yes, unless you are born again in Spirit, you cannot receive that understanding.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 10:22pm

Newsite wrote: »

It's 'they are foolishness', not 'they are forbidden'. Yes, unless you are born again in Spirit, you cannot receive that understanding.

Cannot means forbidden no matter how you look at it.
"neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So according to you, I as the natural man, 'cannot receive that understanding'.

Therefore, the only way I can receive these 'things of the Spirit of God', is to be awakened to their presence/existence by those anointed to preach or by the Holy Spirit instead.

Are you suggesting that I need to await the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit before I can receive these 'things of the Spirit of God'?

lmaopml · 13-11-2011 10:32pm

Mathew, Mark and the Gospel of Luke summarise nicely what is necessary for salvation according to Jesus...

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, with all your MIND, and with all your strength and Love your neighbour as yourself'...

You don't have to lose your Mind in order to seek the Kingdom of God, in fact it comes in very useful to apply it while you are on your search...and faith is merely a tiny bud of curiosity..

Indeed, another promise and perhaps somewhat a personal challenge too is laid down in the Gospels..

'Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks the door will be opened'

It's worth noting, that Jesus said this directly after answering one of his disciples who wanted to know how to pray...

The Lords prayer. Simple, profound and beautiful.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 10:36pm

Simtech wrote: »

Cannot means forbidden no matter how you look at it.
"neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

So according to you, I as the natural man, 'cannot receive that understanding'.

Therefore, the only way I can receive these 'things of the Spirit of God', is to be awakened to their presence/existence by those anointed to preach or by the Holy Spirit instead.

Are you suggesting that I need to await the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit before I can receive these 'things of the Spirit of God'?

According to me? No, not according to me...

It is not by those who preach, it is by the Holy Spirit alone, through God's grace. But the righteous who preach do so to alert you to the Word of God, to the need to repent, to fear God and keep his commandments, i.e. the duty of man. It is by seeking that you find.

The following - Ephesians 2 - is perhaps my favourite verse in the whole Bible, and it has a lyrical quality that is just beautiful:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 10:47pm

Newsite wrote: »

According to me? No, not according to me...

It is not by those who preach, it is by the Holy Spirit alone, through God's grace. But the righteous who preach do so to alert you to the Word of God, to the need to repent, to fear God and keep his commandments, i.e. the duty of man. It is by seeking that you find.

The following - Ephesians 2 - is perhaps my favourite verse in the whole Bible, and it has a lyrical quality that is just beautiful:

Why do you not reply with your own words? Why is it that you feel you should quote the words of another, whom you did not know.

You say it is not according to you and then the section in bold is included to say that it is first the Holy Spirit alone, then also the righteous, who preach the word of God.

I put it to you that I am more likely to hear the words of God from those who preach than from the Holy Spirit himself and that this is in fact the only real world method of transferring the belief from generation to generation.

Do you agree? The same can be addressed to you lmaopml.

antiskeptic · 13-11-2011 10:55pm

Simtech wrote: »

But if you had been told all your life by everyone you knew and trusted that the world was flat; then such would be your belief and you would believe it was based on reasoning. Belief, no matter how tightly held or highly prized, is not necessarily borne out by fact.

If the belief is based on reasoning then a question arises as to whether the reasoning is reasonable. This whether you reason the people telling you the world is flat are to be trusted or whether the scientists who tell you the world is round are to be trusted.

This applies across the board, equally, to us all and must be an acknowledged starting point for any discussion.

What's reasonable to a person and why so strikes me as the locus of the discussion.

antiskeptic · 13-11-2011 11:02pm

Simtech wrote: »

Cannot means forbidden no matter how you look at it.

"Cannot" can mean unable can't it? As in, I cannot jump the Grand Canyon unaided.

Are you suggesting that I need to await the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit before I can receive these 'things of the Spirit of God'?

I think it's the only logical conclusion one could draw. Would you want him to intervene directly? And why?

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:02pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

"If the belief is based on reasoning then a question arises as to whether the reasoning is reasonable."

Yes, it does. Go You! Yay!

"This whether you reason the people telling you the world is flat are to be trusted or whether the scientists who tell you the world is round are to be trusted."

Never mind who is to be trusted for the moment, that's a seperate question. We're not there yet.

"What's reasonable to you and why it is so strikes me as the locus of the discussion."

I'm sorry I don't understand that last bit. Can you expand on it?

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:05pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

"Cannot" can mean unable can't it? As in, I cannot jump the Grand Canyon unaided.

Yes I think I get it, thank you.

I think it's the only logical conclusion one could draw. Would you want him to intervene directly? And why?

It's not you see, one could draw the logical conclusion that the passing on of belief is a function of those who profess said belief and not of any 'Holy Spirit'.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 11:10pm

Simtech wrote: »

Why do you not reply with your own words? Why is it that you feel you should quote the words of another, whom you did not know.

Do you think that is lifted from the Bible?

Simtech wrote: »

You say it is not according to you and then the section in bold is included to say that it is first the Holy Spirit alone, then also the righteous, who preach the word of God.

What I mean is that it is not according to me, it is according to the Word of God.

Simtech wrote: »

I put it to you that I am more likely to hear the words of God from those who preach than from the Holy Spirit himself and that this is in fact the only real world method of transferring the belief from generation to generation.

Do you agree? The same can be addressed to you lmaopml.

Hearing does not equal understanding. That is the whole point. You can hear the words of God from anyone. But to understand, you need the Holy Spirit acting in you.

The 'words of God' ARE from the Holy Spirit! Acting in his apostles - those who wrote the Bible. Those who proclaimed the message. So if you mean by 'transferring the belief', that those who proclaim the message are his apostles (true Christian preachers), then yes.

lmaopml · 13-11-2011 11:11pm

Simtech wrote: »

Why do you not reply with your own words? Why is it that you feel you should quote the words of another, whom you did not know.

You say it is not according to you and then the section in bold is included to say that it is first the Holy Spirit alone, then also the righteous, who preach the word of God.

I put it to you that I am more likely to hear the words of God from those who preach than from the Holy Spirit himself and that this is in fact the only real world method of transferring the belief from generation to generation.

Do you agree? The same can be addressed to you lmaopml.

Ach sure I was only interjecting.....like ye do

I have no problem with accepting that the 'Word' of God in Scripture will most likely be presented by a Priest, or Parent or Teacher to those who have ears to hear....afterall, throughout the centuries not everybody was literate. So yes. It's in written format...Scripture.

Also, Jesus himself sent out his disciples to spread the word that the Kingdom of God was at hand and to preach....that's how the good news was spread in the very beginning.

However, that's completely different to saying this is the 'only' way that people have ever sought God, or indeed prayed to God - or that I know who they are personally...

Today, very many can read, and seek to understand the call of God, the question of God etc. all on their own...

Newsite · 13-11-2011 11:13pm

Simtech wrote: »

It's not you see, one could draw the logical conclusion that the passing on of belief is a function of those who profess said belief and not of any 'Holy Spirit'.

'Belief' is not 'passed on' - nobody believes without the Holy Spirit acting in them. 'Belief' is not delivered by people who profess. They proclaim the Word - it is up to God (the Holy Spirit) how it lands in your heart.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:19pm

lmaopml wrote: »

Ach sure I was only interjecting.....like ye do

I have no problem with accepting that the 'Word' of God in Scripture will most likely be presented by a Priest, or Parent or Teacher to those who have ears to hear....afterall, throughout the centuries not everybody was literate. So yes. It's in written format...Scripture.

Also, Jesus himself sent out his disciples to spread the word that the Kingdom of God was at hand and to preach....that's how the good news was spread in the very beginning.

However, that's completely different to saying this is the 'only' way that people have ever sought God, or indeed prayed to God - or that I know who they are personally...

Today, very many can read, and seek to understand the call of God, the question of God etc. all on their own...

Yes my point is that 'natural man' is asked to believe what he is told, or can read, at face value as the truth, without question. It is true because it says it is the truth.

This is how faith is passed on, person to person, ever changing through the ages. That's a recipe for disaster.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:20pm

Newsite wrote: »

'Belief' is not 'passed on' - nobody believes without the Holy Spirit acting in them. 'Belief' is not delivered by people who profess. They proclaim the Word - it is up to God (the Holy Spirit) how it lands in your heart.

So God decides who he will have to his side. Why does he discriminate so?

lmaopml · 13-11-2011 11:25pm

Simtech wrote: »

Yes my point is that 'natural man' is asked to believe what he is told, or can read, at face value as the truth, without question. It is true because it says it is the truth.

This is how faith is passed on, person to person, ever changing through the ages. That's a recipe for disaster.

Well, you could look on it that way I suppose, and are entitled to...

Me, I am happy out knowing that 'more' wisdom and knowledge of pretty much everything is passed on from one generation to the next...

However, 'knowledge' or yearning for, reaching out to God, has I'm sure taken very many forms in the generations gone by......and God knows em.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 11:27pm

Simtech wrote: »

So God decides who he will have to his side. Why does he discriminate so?

As He does all things by His good will and pleasure - God is sovereign.

Think of a potter shaping the clay - does the clay have a say in what happens? If you reflect on it for even a second, is it reasonable to think that the clay should have a say in the matter?

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:32pm

Newsite wrote: »

As He does all things by His good will and pleasure - God is sovereign. To even seriously question it or challenge it is a mark of unbelief.

Think of a potter shaping the clay - does the clay have a say in what happens? If you reflect on it for even a second, is it reasonable to think that the clay should have a say in the matter?

It is not reasonable to expect the clay to have a say! The clay is inanimate and to suggest that this constitutes reason is to badly define reason.

Nor is it reasonable to say that questioning the belief is a mark of disbelief.

If these are your examples or reason then I say to you that we have differing definitions and concepts of reason

Newsite · 13-11-2011 11:32pm

Simtech wrote: »

Yes my point is that 'natural man' is asked to believe what he is told, or can read, at face value as the truth, without question. It is true because it says it is the truth.

This is how faith is passed on, person to person, ever changing through the ages. That's a recipe for disaster.

It's not that it's a recipe for disaster, as to say that is basically to say that God got it wrong. But I know what you're saying, and are right in the sense that even from the very beginning there were those who would corrupt the message, distort it, preach their own version of it etc.

A clue is this - if you see someone preaching or teaching, and they are generally accepted by large swathes of the population - seriously question it.

If you see someone preaching and they are reviled, despised, persecuted, scorned at, hated, are the object of derision, joked at, insulted - then seek to learn from them!!

tommy2bad · 13-11-2011 11:33pm

What's reasonable to a person and why so strikes me as the locus of the discussion.

Yes thats the nub of it, I asking what makes a belief seem reasonable to you and unreasonable to me?

I put it to you that I am more likely to hear the words of God from those who preach than from the Holy Spirit himself and that this is in fact the only real world method of transferring the belief from generation to generation.

Or it could be the only method of transferring the form from one generation to the next.
God might not be so restrained as we think.
We as Christians have to accept that while we are certain of where God is, we don't know where He isn't.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 11:36pm

Simtech wrote: »

It is not reasonable to expect the clay to have a say! The clay is inanimate and to suggest that this constitutes reason is to badly define reason.

Nor is it reasonable to say that questioning the belief is a mark of disbelief.

If these are your examples or reason then I say to you that we have differing definitions and concepts of reason

Ehm that was a metaphor I was using, in case you missed it

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:37pm

Newsite wrote: »

It's not that it's a recipe for disaster, as to say that is basically to say that God got it wrong. (Not what I said!) But I know what you're saying, and are right in the sense that even from the very beginning there were those who would corrupt the message, distort it, preach their own version of it etc.

A clue is this - if you see someone preaching or teaching, and they are generally accepted by large swathes of the population - seriously question it.

If you see someone preaching and they are reviled, despised, persecuted, scorned at, hated, are the object of derision, joked at, insulted - then seek to learn from them!!

I would prefer to learn from all sides.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:41pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Yes thats the nub of it, I asking what makes a belief seem reasonable to you and unreasonable to me?

Or it could be the only method of transferring the form from one generation to the next.
God might not be so restrained as we think.
We as Christians have to accept that while we are certain of where God is(because you were told this, you cannot verify the truth in it, it is your belief, not fact), we don't know where He isn't. (Nice, I like that turn of phrase.)

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:44pm

Newsite wrote: »

Ehm that was a metaphor I was using, in case you missed it

If so, it was very poorly employed I'm afraid.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 11:45pm

Simtech wrote: »

I would prefer to learn from all sides.

There are no 'sides'. That's what I've said before....there is truth, and there is corruption of the truth. Millions have been led astray by false teaching. You can see it everywhere. And as I said, you will know them by 'their fruits'.

Did you know that Jesus Himself warned the very first preachers (apostles) about this?

Matthew 7....'Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.'

lmaopml · 13-11-2011 11:46pm

Simtech, if you sit back and think about it, pretty much anything you think you know as 'fact' now - is because you are building on past generations....and in five hundred years people might laugh at you...

It doesn't negate that.... The truth is out there........as they say in the 'X' files.

God, has been part of human evolution for a very very very very long time....it's not surprising that if God 'exists' that he has been there no?

...equally, it's not shocking to believe that knowledge of God has grown inline with his people. Not shocking at all..it's reasonable.

Newsite · 13-11-2011 11:46pm

Simtech wrote: »

If so, it was very poorly employed I'm afraid.

Perfectly employed. God is the potter, you are the clay.

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:49pm

Newsite wrote: »

There are no 'sides'. That's what I've said before....there is truth, and there is corruption of the truth. Millions have been led astray by false teaching. You can see it everywhere. And as I said, you will know them by 'their fruits'.

Did you know that Jesus Himself warned the very first preachers (apostles) about this?

Matthew 7....'Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.'

My fruits are my children. They are innocent.

You are deflecting again. We had already seen you define sides

"A clue is this - if you see someone preaching or teaching, and they are generally accepted by large swathes of the population - seriously question it.

If you see someone preaching and they are reviled, despised, persecuted, scorned at, hated, are the object of derision, joked at, insulted - then seek to learn from them!!"

Simtech · 13-11-2011 11:50pm

lmaopml wrote: »

Simtech, if you sit back and think about it, pretty much anything you think you know as 'fact' now - is because you are building on past generations....and in five hundred years people might laugh at you...

It doesn't negate that.... The truth is out there........as they say in the 'X' files.

God, has been part of human evolution for a very very very very long time....it's not surprising that if God 'exists' that he has been there no?

...equally, it's not shocking to believe that knowledge of God has grown inline with his people. Not shocking at all..it's reasonable.

Then I understand your reason.

Belief is not about 'your opinions'

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