What a day!

Fishooks12

Wow, what a day

3 fantastic games I watched today

Does anything come close to the HC in terms of sheer drama, atmosphere and competitiveness?

ktulu123

Nope best rugby competition in the world!

wixfjord

Sheer drama, there is nothing like that.

Whoever in Heineken made the decision to sponsor that tournament should be made a saint!

Fishooks12

ktulu123 wrote: »

Nope best rugby competition in the world!

I agree. Compare today with most of the WC pool games for instance

I'm absolutely exhausted. I've never played 3 games in one day before.

TheJims

Lyla Creamy Undergarment wrote: »

I'm absolutely exhausted. I've never played 3 games in one day before.

What a day.. I'm drained!! I deserve a few heinekens now... Does anyone hav any idea where I cud download or stream the Munster mtch??? Or will it be repeated on tv???

Tigerandahalf

Super games. H Cup is taking over from the premiership in terms of entertainment. Sky will have to up the cash offer when rights come up again. Much more entertaining but then again the results have been going the Irish and that always makes it more entertaining!

Tigerandahalf

TG4 is showing all three games at 9.15

wixfjord

You'll hear English and French moaning during the week I'd say, particularly form our Frog cousins.

profitius

Great weekend for the Pro 12 teams so far. Connacht were also a match for the unbeaten Aviva prem leaders.

phog

Saw Connacht last night and felt they could have won it and certainly felt they deserved a LBP but that wasnt to be, then saw most of the Leinster game today and thought it was gone from them but they clawed out a draw, missed the Ulster game but they got a home win fair play and then had to wait for the 83rd minute to see Munster get a home win to keep their H/C dream alive .

Som great rugby over the week-end but also some silly errors on all sides but again these will be reduced or eliminated as the tournament progresses.

thomond2006

The Heineken really is the saviour of rugby, from an Irish context anyway. Pro12 is crap generally, Six Nations has its moments and the World Cup only had it moments too. The HEC is just brilliant every weekend.

WithCheesePlease

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

TG4 is showing all three games at 9.15

Cr@p - didn't know that. Are RTÉ not doing a highlights show??

.ak

Not even from an Irish perspective. From a neutrals it is pure entertainment, and for all the right reasons.

Super Rugby for example can be entertaining, but it's a case of all style and no substance. Maybe because of the way the league is set up.

RWC is full of substance, but perhaps to the degree where the entertainment is lost because of the pressure applied to some teams/players.

The Heineken cup is streets ahead in terms of skill, performance, emotion, commitment, faith, willingness to win etc., etc.

Today has backed that up. I'd love to see the non-Irish games aswell, as I heard there were some absolute thrillers there too with London Irish and Ospreys.

matthew8

.ak wrote: »

Not even from an Irish perspective. From a neutrals it is pure entertainment, and for all the right reasons.

Super Rugby for example can be entertaining, but it's a case of all style and no substance. Maybe because of the way the league is set up.

RWC is full of substance, but perhaps to the degree where the entertainment is lost because of the pressure applied to some teams/players.

The Heineken cup is streets ahead in terms of skill, performance, emotion, commitment, faith, willingness to win etc., etc.

Today has backed that up. I'd love to see the non-Irish games aswell, as I heard there were some absolute thrillers there too with London Irish and Ospreys.

Put together a super rugby team against a HEC team and the super rugby team would absolutely hammer us. No question about it.

Fishtits

matthew8 wrote: »

Put together a super rugby team against a HEC team and the super rugby team would absolutely hammer us. No question about it.

I wouldn't bet my house on your assumption...

Fishooks12

matthew8 wrote: »

Put together a super rugby team against a HEC team and the super rugby team would absolutely hammer us. No question about it.

That would be 2 random 15's though, nothing to do with either competition

HC has everything, drama, passion, atmosphere great play

S15 can be great to watch at times but IMO HC rugby is what the game is all about

MrJoeSoap

Nobody can ever say Irish kickers lack bottle after that day. Serious clutch players, as the Yanks would say.

Fishooks12

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Nobody can ever say Irish kickers lack bottle after that day. Serious clutch players, as the Yanks would say.

ROG best pressure kicker of all time?

matthew8

Fishooks12 wrote: »

That would be 2 random 15's though, nothing to do with either competition

HC has everything, drama, passion, atmosphere great play

S15 can be great to watch at times but IMO HC rugby is what the game is all about

Alright then, the worst team in the super 15 are the melbourne rebels, how about we put them up against the HEC's worst team? Aironi. They would pummel them. They'd also beat Edinburgh, Glasgow and Treviso. How about the second worst team? The Lions. They'd beat any Welsh team, Scottish team or Italian team, and pretty much all the other teams apart from the HEC cream of the crop. See where I'm going? If you actually look at the sides in the tournaments you'll notice how much better the S15 teams are. however, if you judge a tournament by buzzwords the HEC may win.

MrJoeSoap

Fishooks12 wrote: »

ROG best pressure kicker of all time?

Even after the "manky" one for the Grand Slam? Yeah, why not

matthew8

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Nobody can ever say Irish kickers lack bottle after that day. Serious clutch players, as the Yanks would say.

Well, the thing is, they always had bottle in the HEC, hence why we have won 4 of the last 6, it's just they never showed it in the 6N or RWC, hence why we have one grand slam in the last 64 six nations tournaments and have never reached a RWC semi-final.

Fishooks12

matthew8 wrote: »

Alright then, the worst team in the super 15 are the melbourne rebels, how about we put them up against the HEC's worst team? Aironi. They would pummel them. They'd also beat Edinburgh, Glasgow and Treviso. How about the second worst team? The Lions. They'd beat any Welsh team, Scottish team or Italian team, and pretty much all the other teams apart from the HEC cream of the crop. See where I'm going? If you actually look at the sides in the tournaments you'll notice how much better the S15 teams are. however, if you judge a tournament by buzzwords the HEC may win.

all a series of your own assumptions, no one can possibly know what would happen if they played each other and IMO the lack of focus on defence would be a big problem for any S15 side taking on a HC side, but that's just my opinion and not the original point I was making.

In terms of spectacle HC encompasses everything that's exciting about rugby while S15 can sometimes resemble a glorified game of rugby league with ridiculous socre-lines and little emphasis on defence

MrJoeSoap

matthew8 wrote: »

Well, the thing is, they always had bottle in the HEC, hence why we have won 4 of the last 6, it's just they never showed it in the 6N or RWC, hence why we have one grand slam in the last 64 six nations tournaments and have never reached a RWC semi-final.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pIursHmEZc

Hagz

matthew8 wrote: »

Alright then, the worst team in the super 15 are the melbourne rebels, how about we put them up against the HEC's worst team? Aironi. They would pummel them. They'd also beat Edinburgh, Glasgow and Treviso. How about the second worst team? The Lions. They'd beat any Welsh team, Scottish team or Italian team, and pretty much all the other teams apart from the HEC cream of the crop. See where I'm going? If you actually look at the sides in the tournaments you'll notice how much better the S15 teams are. however, if you judge a tournament by buzzwords the HEC may win.

I don't think the point being made is that the HC has better teams, it's more that it's more entertaining to watch. Heineken Cup has so much to offer if you ask me. S15 tends to lose its excitement about halfway through the season and it lacks the kind of passion and culture aspect that the HC has. Speaking of buzzwords....Hurricanes! Rebels! Sharks! S15 is like NFl with all its club names.

Fishooks12

matthew8 wrote: »

Well, the thing is, they always had bottle in the HEC, hence why we have won 4 of the last 6, it's just they never showed it in the 6N or RWC

Didn't Ronan O' Gara score an important drop goal at some point in a 6nations game a few years ago???

Maybe my memories a bit fuzzy though :rolleyes:

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about Irish rugby judging by your posts on the other threads

Fishooks12

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pIursHmEZc

Thanks of reminding me! Maybe Irish kickers do have some bottle after all

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

ROG best pressure kicker of all time?

Hard to say. He's probably got there in the latter years of his career but he struggled significantly with big kicks in his early career. 2 HEC finals were lost with his missed kicks proving to be crucial. He has had his off days, just as anyone but he came good and dug his sides out of a hole on many occasions. If I had to choose someone I'd go for Tim Stimpson. His kick against Llanelli in 2002 in the semi final was absolutely sensational. Last minute of a HEC semi final, wind and rain, 60m penalty to win by a point.

.ak

matthew8 wrote: »

Put together a super rugby team against a HEC team and the super rugby team would absolutely hammer us. No question about it.

Doubt it. But that's a matter of opinion. I think a HEC team would win. There's more aspects to their game. Look at the differences between the current champions, the reds and leinster... There's far more aspects to Leinster's game last season across the park then the Reds who rely on quick ball and swinging it wide. They have a horrid time in defense. Crusaders brought the wrong tactics to the final this year, and imo were unlucky not to win.

matthew8

Fishooks12 wrote: »

In terms of spectacle HC encompasses everything that's exciting about rugby while S15 can sometimes resemble a glorified game of rugby league with ridiculous socre-lines and little emphasis on defence

Rugby league has a strong emphasis on defense. Players like ROG and Cooper would never make it in league because they wouldn't be good enough defenders. Also S15 is more exciting if you watch it. I remember a couple of years ago an absolute classic betweens the Chiefs and Lions, 72-65, end to end stuff at the end, the players out on their feet. Also if you think that the high scores indicate bad defence, I suggest you watch New Zealand beat Ireland 66-28, or one of Australia's many hammerings of a NH team.

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pIursHmEZc

One year of brilliance. We should have had 3 or 4 of those in the last decade.

Hagz wrote: »

I don't think the point being made is that the HC has better teams, it's more that it's more entertaining to watch. Heineken Cup has so much to offer if you ask me. S15 tends to lose its excitement about halfway through the season and it lacks the kind of passion and culture aspect that the HC has. Speaking of buzzwords....Hurricanes! Rebels! Sharks! S15 is like NFl with all its club names.

In my experience S15 is far better to watch. Also note that they crammed in a lot of blockbuster games today. Watch the standard go down in terms of excitement.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about Irish rugby judging by your posts on the other threads

I have a bee in my bonnet about winning 1 grand slam out of 11 and not reaching a RWC semi-final in 3 attempts during our "golden age" yes.

profitius

matthew8 wrote: »

Rugby league has a strong emphasis on defense. Players like ROG and Cooper would never make it in league because they wouldn't be good enough defenders. Also S15 is more exciting if you watch it. I remember a couple of years ago an absolute classic betweens the Chiefs and Lions, 72-65, end to end stuff at the end, the players out on their feet. Also if you think that the high scores indicate bad defence, I suggest you watch New Zealand beat Ireland 66-28, or one of Australia's many hammerings of a NH team.

And what happened them during the world cup? The Northern hemisphere teams had a few months in camp together and they showed there wasn't much between the teams. The southern hemisphere teams have the luxury of being together for a large part of the year without interruptions.

S15 is a looser brand of rugby and if those teams came to the NH they'd be in for a shock. How did Melbourne rebels get on on their summer tour to this part of the world?

matthew8

.ak wrote: »

Doubt it. But that's a matter of opinion. I think a HEC team would win. There's more aspects to their game. Look at the differences between the current champions, the reds and leinster... There's far more aspects to Leinster's game last season across the park then the Reds who rely on quick ball and swinging it wide. They have a horrid time in defense. Crusaders brought the wrong tactics to the final this year, and imo were unlucky not to win.

Alright, I'll put up my super rugby team, and we'll compare it to your HEC dream team. It'll be interesting.

1. Franks
2. Du Plessis
3. Woodcock
4. Horwill
5. Thorn
6. Kaino
7. Pocock
8. Read
9. Genia
10. Carter
11. O'Connor
12. Nonu
13. Ashley-Cooper
14. Ioane
15. Dagg

Fishooks12

profitius wrote: »

And what happened them during the world cup? The Northern hemisphere teams had a few months in camp together and they showed there wasn't much between the teams. The southern hemisphere teams have the luxury of being together for a large part of the year without interruptions.

S15 is a looser brand of rugby and if those teams came to the NH they'd be in for a shock. How did Melbourne rebels get on on their summer tour to this part of the world?

+1

This guy keeps trying to turn this into a SH NH argument, which I think we can all agree was answered during the WC

The original point is that the HC encapsilates a total brand of rugby that no other tournament does

Fishooks12

matthew8 wrote: »

Alright, I'll put up my super rugby team, and we'll compare it to your HEC dream team. It'll be interesting.

1. Franks
2. Du Plessis
3. Woodcock
4. Horwill
5. Thorn
6. Kaino
7. Pocock
8. Read
9. Genia
10. Carter
11. O'Connor
12. Nonu
13. Ashley-Cooper
14. Ioane
15. Dagg

It;s hilarious how much you're missing the point

It's not about individual players, it's about the tournaments themselves and the style of rugby played

matthew8

profitius wrote: »

And what happened them during the world cup? The Northern hemisphere teams had a few months in camp together and they showed there wasn't much between the teams. The southern hemisphere teams have the luxury of being together for a large part of the year without interruptions.

S15 is a looser brand of rugby and if those teams came to the NH they'd be in for a shock. How did Melbourne rebels get on on their summer tour to this part of the world?

The thing is that the rebels are a shocking outfit. The tri-nations teams only lost to a non-tri nations team once, and that was when they were without their best performer of the world cup.

duckysauce

matthew8 wrote: »

Well, the thing is, they always had bottle in the HEC, hence why we have won 4 of the last 6, it's just they never showed it in the 6N or RWC, hence why we have one grand slam in the last 64 six nations tournaments and have never reached a RWC semi-final.

do you know handsomecake ??

matthew8

duckysauce wrote: »

do you know handsomecake ??

he rings a bell, I remember him making some excellent points a while back, must've been banned.

sock puppet

.ak wrote: »

Doubt it. But that's a matter of opinion. I think a HEC team would win. There's more aspects to their game. Look at the differences between the current champions, the reds and leinster... There's far more aspects to Leinster's game last season across the park then the Reds who rely on quick ball and swinging it wide. They have a horrid time in defense. Crusaders brought the wrong tactics to the final this year, and imo were unlucky not to win.

The Stormers at one stage had the best defensive record in world rugby yet the Reds still managed to beat them. The Reds are very capable of playing a defensive game as seen against the Waratahs this year. The Lions problem isn't a lack of focus on defence, they're just crap. Any talent they do produce is snapped up by the bigger teams.

The Heineken Cup is still the more gripping competition though. Super Rugby is more like a league now so the good teams can afford to lose certain games, rest players etc.

matthew8

Fishooks12 wrote: »

+1

This guy keeps trying to turn this into a SH NH argument, which I think we can all agree was answered during the WC

The original point is that the HC encapsilates a total brand of rugby that no other tournament does

How was the NH SH argument answered at the WC? The HC doesn't encapsulate a free-flowing game of rugby.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It;s hilarious how much you're missing the point

It's not about individual players, it's about the tournaments themselves and the style of rugby played

Today's standard was way higher than I remember it being last year. I would still rather a day of super rugby with the equivalent of the teams playing today.

Also, a poster actually argued that the HEC team would win, so I was entitled to continue that argument.

profitius

matthew8 wrote: »

The thing is that the rebels are a shocking outfit. The tri-nations teams only lost to a non-tri nations team once, and that was when they were without their best performer of the world cup.

And yet they still are able to win games.

They won 3 from 16. To put it in perspective, Lions won 3, Brumbies won 4, Western Force, Cheetahs and Hurricanes all won 5. So, if they're shocking what does that say about the other teams?

matthew8

profitius wrote: »

And yet they still are able to win games.

They won 3 from 16. To put it in perspective, Lions won 3, Brumbies won 4, Western Force, Cheetahs and Hurricanes all won 5. So, if they're shocking what does that say about the other teams?

That there is a home team advantage? Also the home team SF advantage ruins the HC. Last year Leinster got the home SF against Toulouse and go through, but would've lost in Toulouse. It's totally random. There should at least be 2 legs.

profitius

matthew8 wrote: »

That there is a home team advantage? Also the home team SF advantage ruins the HC. Last year Leinster got the home SF against Toulouse and go through, but would've lost in Toulouse. It's totally random. There should at least be 2 legs.

I agree about the home SF advantage for the HEC. That is not a fair system.

irishbucsfan

matthew8 wrote: »

There should at least be 2 legs.

Two legs with what, aggregate scores?! :pac:

Fishooks12

Two legs wouldn't work with the already hectic end of year calender but maybe a neutral venue?

matthew8

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Two legs with what, aggregate scores?! :pac:

Yes, it's the only fair way other than neutral venue. Though only a handful of teams could fill these so it wouldn't make sense for business.

sock puppet

profitius wrote: »

And yet they still are able to win games.

They won 3 from 16. To put it in perspective, Lions won 3, Brumbies won 4, Western Force, Cheetahs and Hurricanes all won 5. So, if they're shocking what does that say about the other teams?

The Brumbies and Hurricanes had well documented off field problems so their results aren't relevant. The others are the expansion teams and they're all crap. It's been a success commercially but in terms of quality it'd be better if it was still the Super 12.

MrJoeSoap

matthew8 wrote: »

Also the home team SF advantage ruins the HC.

Is there not a home advantage at the semi-final stage of the Super Rugby also?

matthew8

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Is there not a home advantage at the semi-final stage of the Super Rugby also?

That is decided on merit however. In the HC it's just random. That's not fair.

MrJoeSoap

matthew8 wrote: »

That is decided on merit however. In the HC it's just random. That's not fair.

Decided on merit but to the advantage of one side, at least the HC gives an equal 50/50 chance of home advantage at the semi-final stage. There isn't really a fairer way to do it in the HC with the format the way it is, without as you suggested using a two-legged system which would probably be overkill at that time of the year.

iroced

I watched the 3 "Irish" games today. Of course was more interested by the first one .
And I have to agree with the "magic" that's around the HEC, especially from the Irish teams.

If I take the example of my "own team". We've been sh*t for 10 games in the TOP 14. Ok we were missing the internationals. But we never showed the commitment, the passion, the energy that we showed today against Leinster. Leinster also, despite an average game for their standard pushed back so badly to come back and win it (and actually Cullen's decision to take the line-out sums up well the "special thing" about this competition: it's great because teams go for the win, there's no calculation).

Clermont seemed to take it a little bit easy after a great start and they've been punished by the will of a team supposed to be weaker than them.

And finally, despite my flaks towards the ref, I have to recognise that the Munster game was epic. What a finale! I've been full of praises for the Welsh try against Australia in the WC, stating it was the best of the competition for me, so, again in spite of the ref leniency, I must admit that ROG dropgoal could already be the play of the 2011-12 HEC. To beat that, you'll need something like the French winning try to Australia back in the 1987 WC :pac:.

---

As for comparing the HEC with the S15. Well I don't know it very well. But isn't the refereeing different in the SH ? So seems difficult to compare performances then IMO.

---

And about the HEC home advantage in the SF. It's true that for the last couple of years, it made a big difference. Having a home and away game seems impossible though regarding the "insane" calendar the internationals (who fill the best European teams) already have. Maybe, they should organise it following the Final Four way of indoor team sports (Handball, Basket-Ball...). I mean this year's final is in Twickenham. So play both semis in Twickenham too. And change the venue more often as it's Cardiff/London/Paris that seem to rotate a little too often...

MrJoeSoap

iroced wrote: »

And about the HEC home advantage in the SF. It's true that for the last couple of years, it made a big difference. Having a home and away game seems impossible though regarding the "insane" calendar the internationals (who fill the best European teams) already have. Maybe, they should organise it following the Final Four way of indoor team sports (Handball, Basket-Ball...). I mean this year's final is in Twickenham. So play both semis in Twickenham too. And change the venue more often as it's Cardiff/London/Paris that seem to rotate a little too often...

The thing about the Final Four is that there is generally only a day or two between the games, in rugby it would be a matter of weeks thus making the travel arrangements for fans a lot more difficult.