restricted electrical works

marknjb

read the reci news letter today (boss gave it to me ) it has a page about this new regulation that will make it illegal for anyone who is not a registered contractor from doing any work in a domestic hse that requires a new circuit or any board work
its my understanding from this is that it would now be illegal for me to wire a new socket circuit in my own hse even though i am a qualified sparks(city and guilds + senior trades ) with 20 odd years experiance .surely they cant stop any one who has a qualifaciton from doing a job in their own home or family members. going by this if my mother wanted an electric shower put in in the morning i would have to get someone else to do it

Doom

marknjb wrote: »

read the reci news letter today (boss gave it to me ) it has a page about this new regulation that will make it illegal for anyone who is not a registered contractor from doing any work in a domestic hse that requires a new circuit or any board work
its my understanding from this is that it would now be illegal for me to wire a new socket circuit in my own hse even though i am a qualified sparks(city and guilds + senior trades ) with 20 odd years experiance .surely they cant stop any one who has a qualifaciton from doing a job in their own home or family members. going by this if my mother wanted an electric shower put in in the morning i would have to get someone else to do it

Tis true.....load of bollox

2011

Whatever about the legalities, it will be impossible to police. Are you really going to be brought to task for installing a socket in your own home?? I don't think so.

Bruthal

I think this is a shower of tools that have nothing better to do than think of more rubbish to make rules about. I know we might hear some registered people saying its great. Its a load of rubbish.

Is this really about safety? Its now too dangerous for a qualified electrician to install an MCB in a DB. A crock of total shit. I was expecting it though, and its just the first stage in no one except contractors being able to do any electrical work what so ever.

Whats next, illegal to change a plug fuse. Stupidity that suits the mugs game that electrical work has become.

maxfresh

robbie7730 wrote: »

I think this is a shower of tools that have nothing better to do than think of more rubbish to make rules about. I know we might hear some registered people saying its great. Its a load of rubbish.

Is this really about safety? Its now too dangerous for a qualified electrician to install an MCB in a DB. A crock of total shit. I was expecting it though, and its just the first stage in no one except contractors being able to do any electrical work what so ever.

Whats next, illegal to change a plug fuse. Stupidity that suits the mugs game that electrical work has become.

Funny you say this because i was told electrical is a mugs game in the first year of my apprentiship by the sparks i was working with (10 years ago)

Bruthal

Yea i know, im 25 years at it, and i have thought that about it since the mid 90`s. The building rush made it worse again.

Cant do work now that requires a new circuit, or work on the DB. Laughable they are getting.

maxfresh

Suppose its just a way of reci/ecssa raking in the cash for memberships

Bruthal

Little to do with safety anyway. If a qualified person cant take the cover off a DB, then its definitely a case of them organisations sitting down trying to think of the next rule they can implement, simply to shore it up. A complete farce in my opinion. I might be alone in this forum on that, but thats my thoughts on it.

Notice they say no work on DB and no new circuits. Its tricky to run in a new circuit without working on the DB. Make ye laugh they would.

marknjb

robbie7730 wrote: »

Little to do with safety anyway. If a qualified person cant take the cover off a DB, then its definitely a case of them organisations sitting down trying to think of the next rule they can implement, simply to shore it up. A complete farce in my opinion. I might be alone in this forum on that, but thats my thoughts on it.

Notice they say no work on DB and no new circuits. Its tricky to run in a new circuit without working on the DB. Make ye laugh they would.

what they are saying is that while i am working for my firm (unsupervised) i am perfectyly competant yet once i go out the gate i loose all my ability to do the job

dolittle

marknjb wrote: »

what they are saying is that while i am working for my firm (unsupervised) i am perfectyly competant yet once i go out the gate i loose all my ability to do the job

thats an excellent point

paddymick

marknjb wrote: »

what they are saying is that while i am working for my firm (unsupervised) i am perfectyly competant yet once i go out the gate i loose all my ability to do the job

dolittle wrote: »

thats an excellent point

I wouldnt say its down to the fact that you loose all your ability but more to do with when you are working for your employer everything you do is covered by his insurance and when you go out and do stuff for yourself there is no insurance to cover your work in the event that something might happen.

cast_iron

marknjb wrote: »

what they are saying is that while i am working for my firm (unsupervised) i am perfectyly competant yet once i go out the gate i loose all my ability to do the job

Well not really. Just like a Garda can't issue speeding tickets when he's off the day job, accountants are now regulated too, the list goes on.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

Well not really. Just like a Garda can't issue speeding tickets when he's off the day job

I can imagine a garda being in demand from his family or friends looking for an out of his normal job speeding ticket alright.

xxtallaghtxx

Didn't they do the same thing to the lads putting in intruder alarms?
The way they stopped that was making it hard to get materials?

Bruthal

xxtallaghtxx wrote: »

Didn't they do the same thing to the lads putting in intruder alarms?
The way they stopped that was making it hard to get materials?

Seems to be similar alright. Next we will need a licence to own a toolbox.

xxtallaghtxx

robbie7730 wrote: »

Seems to be similar alright. Next we will need a licence to own a toolbox.

And could you imagine what they'l have you do to earn your drill????

I like how they assume then aswell that just because they're a contractor that they aren't cutting corners etc. Some of the **** I saw in my brief time working as a spark made me wonder how did they manage to charge!

KoolKid

cast_iron wrote: »

Just like a Garda can't issue speeding tickets when he's off the day job,.

Lots of them are never off duty.:rolleyes:

cast_iron

KoolKid wrote: »

Lots of them are never off duty.:rolleyes:

Well they themselves will argue they are never off duty, which is why I gave the ticketing example.

robbie, I'm not saying I agree with the changes, but we see it argued in here that non-registered guys are putting genuine contractors out of business, and here's a move in the other direction, and it's been criticised too.

I can't see how these rules will stop you adding a circuit to your neighbours house...as policing it will be impossible. Sure they don't police things as is! But it would stop the cowboy from doing his handy work completely, as there'll be very little left that won't need a registered contractor soon. Stop him legally anyway, as again, the policing for him would be the same for you...

Carlow52

when can we expect this to pass into law?

evosteo

so is it going to be "against the law" for an electrician to work on his or a friend or family members home??????????

omg this countrys getting worse

seriously

this is taking the piss full stop

etci and ecssa money making cartel

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

robbie, I'm not saying I agree with the changes, but we see it argued in here that non-registered guys are putting genuine contractors out of business, and here's a move in the other direction, and it's been criticised too.

I can't see how these rules will stop you adding a circuit to your neighbours house...as policing it will be impossible. Sure they don't police things as is! But it would stop the cowboy from doing his handy work completely, as there'll be very little left that won't need a registered contractor soon. Stop him legally anyway, as again, the policing for him would be the same for you...

How they will police it is not really the point, they are just able to turn around and tell a qualified person, sorry, your not allowed change that faulty MCB in your parents DB.

I fixed a serious problem next door earlier this year, a nail through a socket circuit, bridging L to E. It was known by the contractor too, as earth in t&e between both sockets disconnected amd just left behind socket, still live, and a bypass earth run instead, and so a nice live nail left in the wall. Only when neighbour wanted me to put in new socket plate was it found. Like that from time the house was new 8 years ago.

Now thats one fine example of many i have seen from contractors, rushing to complete domestic installations, as the poriority is speed/money. A quality installation is secondary with many, and would be more likely with a relative doing the work i believe.

But anyway, as evosteo says, its like a cartel with them.

Get a contractor in to tighten a connection in an MCB board? Lunacy.

As for contractors being put out of business, well there is just no business left, and what little is, they are simply trying to eliminate qualified people from doing anything at all in reality.

red sean

So if your Mum needs an extra light or socket in her house, you must tell her ring your boss. He'll send you and you must charge her the going rate. Your boss gets paid, you get paid, the Revenue get paid and tough luck on yer Mum.
It's a great little country this!

cast_iron

robbie7730 wrote: »

How they will police it is not really the point, they are just able to turn around and tell a qualified person, sorry, your not allowed change that faulty MCB in your parents DB.

I fixed a serious problem next door earlier this year, a nail through a socket circuit, bridging L to E. It was known by the contractor too, as earth in t&e between both sockets disconnected amd just left behind socket, still live, and a bypass earth run instead, and so a nice live nail left in the wall. Only when neighbour wanted me to put in new socket plate was it found. Like that from time the house was new 8 years ago.

Now thats one fine example of many i have seen from contractors, rushing to complete domestic installations, as the poriority is speed/money. A quality installation is secondary with many, and would be more likely with a relative doing the work i believe.

While your story proves that there are rogue contractor out there, it says little no one didn't already know.

But anyway, as evosteo says, its like a cartel with them.

I somewhat agree.

Get a contractor in to tighten a connection in an MCB board? Lunacy.

As for contractors being put out of business, well there is just no business left, and what little is, they are simply trying to eliminate qualified people from doing anything at all in reality.

So where do we draw the line? Family and closest 3 friends? Immediate family? Half sister, thrice removed? Next door neighbour but not 2 doors away?

As it is, assuming you charged your neighbour a few bob for sorting it out, it would be taxable income. By right, a contractor should have repaired it. Your argument is basically that nixers shouldn't be illegal?
(And I only use your neighbour as an example, I don't care what who paid what, if anything, in that case)

KoolKid

cast_iron wrote: »

So where do we draw the line? Family and closest 3 friends? Immediate family? Half sister, thrice removed? Next door neighbour but not 2 doors away?

Its hard to. You could go like the PSA do with alarms & limit it by payment. But that too, opens up a lot of loopholes.

M cebee

the registered guys:
have their work monitored ,
have insurance,
have test instruments calibrated,
upskill on training courses,
have copy of rules
customer has recourse to reci/ecssa in case of wiring issues

pointless really though considering half the new work is carried out by non registered guys buying certs and the registered guys can do what they like and sign off

cast_iron

M cebee wrote: »

pointless really though considering half the new work is carried out by non registered guys buying certs and the registered guys can do what they like and sign off

Quite true. Though alot wouldn't even buy the certs.
As usual, rather than police the current rules, they just bring in more to make it look like they are doing something. That's how government departments work.

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

While your story proves that there are rogue contractor out there, it says little no one didn't already know.

Id say it was not a rogue contractor, just the usual get the job done as fast as possible, type contractor. Anyone that believes an installation passing the required tests means its a good installation, needs a bit of a re-think.

So where do we draw the line? Family and closest 3 friends? Immediate family? Half sister, thrice removed? Next door neighbour but not 2 doors away?

So you tell me where do we draw the line so. A new circuit, a new DB, change MCB, fitting a plug, changing a bulb?

As it is, assuming you charged your neighbour a few bob for sorting it out, it would be taxable income. By right, a contractor should have repaired it. Your argument is basically that nixers shouldn't be illegal?
(And I only use your neighbour as an example, I don't care what who paid what, if anything, in that case)

Taxable income? Dont make me laugh. How much is the tax on fixing a serious problem, on a circuit done by these "monitored" contractors, when i charged actually nothing?

A registered contractor should have fixed another registered contractors complete Fuck up? Sounds about right. So i replace a socket plate, which in fact the neighbour replaced but asked me to check, and found this covered up cowboy job by original contractors, and instead of making it perfectly safe, i should of called a contractor?

So if i charged nothing for removing a piece of cable, and replacing it with a new piece, which the registered contractor couldnt be bothered doing while obviously knowing about it, should that be illegal? If you still think that, then you bringing how much i charged into it was pointless.

Should i call a contractor the next time i want to fit a new socket in my house?

Im guessing you never did a "nixer" as you call it, in your entire life. Maybe not.

M cebee

the registered guys sell certs to the non registered guys
so the system is being defeated

they wont be able to enforce any of this new stuff on domestic work as the customer will prefer a bargain anyway

things might change if the insurance companies started insisting on certs for renewals,but i'd say even then there's be guys signing off on dangerous installations

marknjb

the certs make me laugh.i often come across jobs that have been certed and the standard of work is brutal u would wonder how they get away with it .this new rule is the reci boys trying to justtify their jobs for their paymasters (the contractors).what is the point in serveing ure time if u are still not allowed to do a job that a contractor will only send a first year to do and probbaly never even see the job

evosteo

the insurance companys wll not get involved with this

i remember not too far back somebody telling me a new rule was gonna come in where you had to get ur house tested every year and this would put alot of electricians out of work back into it

the insurance companys could refuse to reinsure your premises without this test cert,

thats like them turning away business and a compeditor taking a "risk" and covering the rejected premises,

no company in there right mind will do this, its commercial suicide

why is there only reci and ecssa???????? why is ther not more?????

cartel im telling ya, id love to see their balance sheets, seems to me the contractors are getting restless because of the lack of work due to the recession and reci/ecssa are trying to prove their worth to them,

cant you still get a cert from one of them where an inspector comes out and tests your premises, and certs it once its to standard? they will happily take your money for that

bunch of gangsters

M cebee

there should only have been one organization- reci


don't think insurance companies work like that-taking on premises that are a big risk

cast_iron

robbie7730 wrote: »

So you tell me where do we draw the line so. A new circuit, a new DB, change MCB, fitting a plug, changing a bulb?

That's not an answer to my question.

A registered contractor should have fixed another registered contractors complete Fuck up?

Well it would be better to get someone who has insurance and proper equipment to do the job.

So if i ..... removing a piece of cable, and replacing it with a new piece, .... should that be illegal? If you still think that, then you bringing how much i charged into it was pointless.

That's really what you are asking with some floury words. Well, no is the answer. But I don't think the new rules are stating that.

Should i call a contractor the next time i want to fit a new socket in my house?

The right way of doing it would be to. Obviously practicality would most likely dictate otherwise.

Im guessing you never did a "nixer" as you call it, in your entire life. Maybe not.

What I've done in my life is neither here nor there to the merits of my argument. My words here speak for themselves, and saying I have this viewpoint because you think I might never have done a nixer is unfair and uncalled for.

paddymick

M cebee wrote: »

the registered guys:
have their work monitored ,
have insurance,
have test instruments calibrated,
upskill on training courses,
have copy of rules
customer has recourse to reci/ecssa in case of wiring issues

+1

pointless really though considering half the new work is carried out by non registered guys buying certs and the registered guys can do what they like and sign off

Thats one thing I would refuse point blank to do,I wouldnt even give a cert to a best mate even though i`d know his work is 100%.


And jaysus listening to most fellas on here you would think going out and setting yourself up the right way by getting registered and having insurance automatically puts you into the bad category.I never realised only non registered lads put a bit of passion into their work and us registered lads will go in and cut any corner we can just to try make some money....Well ive never worked like that and thats probably why my phone still rings every day.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

there should only have been one organization- reci

Why would you prefer a complete monopoly?

The ECSSA only exist because in court it was successfully demonstrated that RECI had treated an electrical contractor unfairly.
As a consequence this electrical contractor then set up the ECSSA.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

the registered guys:
have their work monitored

Speaking as an ex-electrical contractor I don't agree with this statement.
In theory their work is monitored, in practice it is not as the electrical contractor can decide which installations are inspected.
The only exception is when a customer demands an inspection from the ECSSA or RECI. This is quite rare and in general the customer has little or no electrical experience and therefore they generally don't know if work has been done to a poor standard or not.

My own experience with trying to get a registered electrical contractor to comply with regulations was very negitive. When I called an RECI inspector to a new house I had bought in my opinion he did not enforce the electrical contractor to comply with some of the regulations that he had clearly broken. He did get him to fix the some of the easier to fix breaches of ET101.

Boradly speaking I would agree with Cast Iron's position.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

M cebee wrote: »

there should only have been one organization- reci

Why would you prefer a complete monopoly?

The ECSSA only exist because in court it was successfully demonstrated that RECI had treated an electrical contractor unfairly.
As a consequence this electrical contractor then set up the ECSSA.

im all for competition but not here

2011

M cebee wrote: »

im all for competition but not here

.......and the reason is???

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

M cebee wrote: »

im all for competition but not here

.......and the reason is???

maybe you could list the benefits of competition here

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

That's not an answer to my question.

Its the same thing, you asked where does it stop. I said a qualified person cant wire a circuit in for their parents, or in their own house. You asking where does the line get drawn doesnt change that.

Well it would be better to get someone who has insurance and proper equipment to do the job.

I think its likely that contractors during the boom were wiring houses as fast as they could. Quality was secondary. If the sockets work, that will do. Passing tests, which contractors do themselves, doesnt mean its a good job. And a badly installed circuit can pass any electrical tests.

That's really what you are asking with some floury words. Well, no is the answer. But I don't think the new rules are stating that.

The new rules are not stating that, no, but its the first step in a progression toward only having contractors doing anything. So where do we draw the line so? Contractor to change a main fuse?

I tested the circuit mentioned, from the DB, after re connecting the earth the contractors left out at the socket. That is against these rules now probably, for non contractors.

The right way of doing it would be to. Obviously practicality would most likely dictate otherwise.

I can guarantee i will do a better job in my own house, and others, than most contractors. Do you know why? Firstly, im not an apprentice getting sent in on behalf of the contractor. Secondly, i have a very high conscience for good quality work, even if that means it takes longer. A contractors preference is to get in and out as fast as possible. You might dispute that. But thats only my own standard, from my own point of view. Plenty of qualified non contractors people are rough as well.

What I've done in my life is neither here nor there to the merits of my argument. My words here speak for themselves, and saying I have this viewpoint because you think I might never have done a nixer is unfair and uncalled for.

Probably, but you suggested earlier that a contractor should have fixed next doors dangerous problem, because they would have the proper equipment. Where as i used a scissors and a roll of insulating tape of course.

The real facts are, the electrical trade is gone, and its a matter of shoring up whats left of it, for benefits which are not really about safety.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Boradly speaking I would agree with Cast Iron's position.

I see that.

Will you call in a contractor to replace an MCB on a relatives DB? Or will you take the terrible risk of replacing it yourself, and hope you did it right?

Again, id say on average, you would do a better job of installing a new shower in a relatives house, than an unknown contractor would.

2011

M cebee wrote: »

maybe you could list the benefits of competition here

You want me to list the benifits of competition? There are not enough hours in the day.


But I will give you a few:
1) If customers (electrical contractors) are not happy with one organisation they can move to the other

2) When there was just RECI they could make up any rules that they wanted and an electrical contractor either complied or gave up electrical contracting. This would be regardless of how fair the rules were.

3) Both organisations are in competition with each other for members. Therefore they are both striving to attract electrical contractors by providing better value for money and better customer service.


For a good example of how competition helps, look at Ryan Air and what they have done for prices of flying across all of the airlines.

Perhaps you could explain to me what the downside of competition is, because I can't see it.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

I see that.

Will you call in a contractor to replace an MCB on a relatives DB? Or will you take the terrible risk of replacing it yourself, and hope you did it right?

Again, id say on average, you would do a better job of installing a new shower in a relatives house, than an unknown contractor would.

I think that you would do a great job of replacing an MCB, but I feel that electrical work should in general be carried out by registered electrical contractors or at least be carried out by a qualified electrician and checked by an independant inspector.

....and before you ask I agree that the system in place does not work.

I think its likely that contractors during the boom were wiring houses as fast as they could. Quality was secondary. If the sockets work, that will do. Passing tests, which contractors do themselves, doesnt mean its a good job.

Agree 100%

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

You want me to list the benifits of competition? There are not enough hours in the day.


But I will give you a few:
1) If customers (electrical contractors) are not happy with one organisation they can move to the other

2) When there was just RECI they could make up any rules that they wanted and an electrical contractor either complied or gave up electrical contracting. This would be regardless of how fair the rules were.

3) Both orgaisations had to be more compeditive with their pricing.

4) Both organisations are in competition with each other for members. Therefore they are both striving to attract electrical contractors by providing better value for money.


I could go on, but I have to get back to work.

For a good example of how competition helps, look at Ryan Air and what they have done for prices of flying across all of the airlines.

Perhaps you could explain to me what the downside of competition is, because I can't see it.

i think you've answered your own question as i expected you would!

competition here benefits the contractor

as you have stated many times yourself the overriding concern should be the consumer

2011

M cebee wrote: »

i think you've answered your own question as i expected you would!

competition here benefits the contractor

as you have stated many times yourself the overriding concern should be the consumer

Sorry I thought your question was how did competition benifit the electrical contractor. To answer how does it benifit the end user try this:

For a good example of how competition helps, look at Ryan Air and what they have done for prices of flying across all of the airlines.

2011

M cebee I would be interested in knowing:

1) Would you agree that a benifit for the contractor is good?
2) Would you agree that if the contractor's overheads are less then the it is possible to charge less for the same work? Thus generating more affordable work
3) What is the downside of competition? I have listed some advantages for the end user and electrical contractor

M cebee

you've lost me 2011- your ryanair analogy doesn't make sense

consumers are the main concern in these matters

not contractors

2011

M cebee wrote: »

you've lost me 2011- your ryanair analogy doesn't make sense

consumers are the main concern in these matters

not contractors

Agreed, lets focus on customers:
My point is competition drives prices down. That is what Ryan Air did for the airline industry.

So I ask again what is the downside of competition?

M cebee

all you've confirmed 2011,is that:

it's handy for the contractor to be able to choose either reci or ecssa

and that they have to compete on price for members

2011

M cebee wrote: »

and that they have to compete on price for members

.....and less overheads makes it possible to charge customers less.

Please explain the downside to competition

.G.

Getting in a registered contractor in to do work over a Nixer is in itself no guarantee that the work will be done to a good safe standard but it does give you some recourse as a consumer.

If this about bringing higher standards to the industry then they should remove a contractors ability to certify his own work.Job done.Then we might see the gradual disappearance of the lone ranger types.

If however ,as i suspect,this is about ring fencing what little work there is out there just for registered lads(both good and bad) it will fail miserable as its impossible to police.

M cebee

2011 wrote: »

.....and less overheads makes it possible to charge customers less.

Please explain the downside to competition

sure

when copper comes down in price work will also be cheaper

we're talking competition in 'REGULATORY BODIES' here

not airline ticket prices