Should Motor Tax be flat rated ?

trellheim

Say 1000 or 1500 euro annually, 2000 is too much-ish. Nice round number. Bring in a huge amount of badly needed cash.

Yes there's an ecological thing about higher CO2 cars. I'm kind of putting that to one side for the moment for the added amount of cash it'd bring in.

Edit 1 : I drive an 06 Lexus GS450H, road tax is in and around 1600

Edit 2 : My point is if its' set at that severe level, not down in the weeds.

challengemaster

More like 340 would be good

marketty

Tis a fine suggestion for those with big engined Lexi alright! Not exactly fair on those that drive smaller/cleaner cars is it?
Look at it from this point of view: why not flat rate engine size? No one allowed drive anything bigger than a 1.4. Any money saved by people who used to drive big engined cars should be taken in tax.
This is obviously a ridiculously unfair idea, just like yours.

maxfresh

yeah a 1 litre micra having the same tax rate as a bmw 750 ,great idea:rolleyes:

Plug

They should reverse the tax brackets now since most cars in Ireland are eco 1 litre diesels. Now we can drive around in 3 litres no problem:D

unkel

Motor tax should be based purely on how much you pollute. This can only be measured accurately by how much fuel you use. Ah! so we put the tax on fuel!

100% tax compliance (you don't pay tax, car won't start)

zero costs of collecting the tax (excise is already collected for free by the petrol stations)

100% fair system: the polluter pays

If only some politicians had the balls to implement it :rolleyes:

marketty

Getting rid of motor tax and putting it on fuel really is a no brainer for all the reasons unkel just outlined. The only reason I can see it being opposed is by the '300k mortgage on a flat 100 miles from work we're getting screwed' crowd

FGR

Ah yes..but give it two or three years when the Government will be looking for more ways to generate revenue and some bright spark will pop up and say "I know! How about an annual charge for using your vehicle on a public road?????"

And, as ever, the people will pay it without question.

CiniO

What about for change stop tax a vehicles, and start tax a drivers.

Anyone who wants to drive a vehicle on public road, should have his drivers licence taxed.
Any penalty points - increase in tax.
Any convictions or endorsements - increase in tax.

L-M

unkel wrote: »

Motor tax should be based purely on how much you pollute. This can only be measured accurately by how much fuel you use. Ah! so we put the tax on fuel!

100% tax compliance (you don't pay tax, car won't start)

zero costs of collecting the tax (excise is already collected for free by the petrol stations)

100% fair system: the polluter pays

If only some politicians had the balls to implement it :rolleyes:

Normally I would agree, but if we had a proper, usable Transport system then maybe, but we don't.

The last two times I was on a bus in Limerick I got harassed, and anytime I use a taxi I get raped. If I was to cycle to work I'd be killed by ignorant drivers.

Putting tax on fuel wouldn't be fair on the "300k mortgage" crowd, because they have no other way to work.

I say a flat rate tax, something around the €500 mark, plus a small increase on fuel.

Also, getting rid of motortax would put people out of jobs, including the "Issued of lost motor tax discs" person, and we just couldn't have that.

Edit: Out of curiousity, how much would said increase be on fuel?

Voodoomelon

Minister Varadkar's office acknowledged receipt of my email a week or two ago, after several months:

Currently we take in €1.03 billion from motor tax.
There are 2.63 million issued driving licenses in this country.

Thats €392 per driver per year.
Lets increase it to €500 a year (recession and all).

Average mileage per person is 12,000 miles (roughly)
Average MPG is 40MPG. (roughly)

Thats 1365 litres of fuel used per person at a cost of €2050 (at €1.50 a litre).

€2050 + €500 in additional tax is €2550.

€2550 divided by the same 1365 litres is an increase to €1.87 for a
litre of fuel, or an increase of 37c a litre.

Advantages:
An increase of €284,000,000 in revenue intake.
100% payment compliance.
A further €52,000,000+ saving on motor tax offices.
A much fairer system, you drive more, you use the roads more, you
pollute more, you pay more.
If you only drive a car at the weekends, doing a 3000 miles a year,
you only pay €125 in tax. If you drive 24,000 miles a year, you pay
€1000 in tax.
Further motor tax intake can be achieved from charging haulage
companies a flat rate per vehicle.
You can own several cars without worrying about keeping them in tax.
Increased revenue from tourists, foreign nationals and other non-irish vehicles.

Disadvantages:
Motor tax workers loose their jobs. Perhaps they can be re-allocated
to other departments? 800 motor tax workers would cost €7.9 million in
dole payments per year. Certrainly cheaper than €52m cost of keeping
the offices open.

Haulage companies would have a fit. This can be resolved by charging a
fixed rate per vehicle and allowing them to offset the fuel cost
increase against their tax returns.

There would be rampant crossings of the border to avail of cheaper
fuel. As of August 2011, the average price of diesel/petrol in
Northern Ireland is €1.65 a litre. Filling a standard 60 litre tank
would save €13.20 a fill over southern €1.87 a litre prices. So there
would definitely be an incentive there to fill up across the border.
However the limit of that saving would be how far you can travel from
your home to cross the border and travel back on €13.20, just to break
even. Only border counties would benefit from this, and even then it
saves the motorist maybe €5-€10 every two weeks. Worth the hassle of
driving 10-30 miles just to fill up?

W.Shakes-Beer

unkel wrote: »

Motor tax should be based purely on how much you pollute. This can only be measured accurately by how much fuel you use. Ah! so we put the tax on fuel!

100% tax compliance (you don't pay tax, car won't start)

zero costs of collecting the tax (excise is already collected for free by the petrol stations)

100% fair system: the polluter pays

If only some politicians had the balls to implement it :rolleyes:

I agree with this fully, in any other piece of environmental legislation, the polluter always pays.


And it also gets rid of another hideous disk out of the windscreen :P

heate

marketty wrote: »

Tis a fine suggestion for those with big engined Lexi alright! Not exactly fair on those that drive smaller/cleaner cars is it?
Look at it from this point of view: why not flat rate engine size? No one allowed drive anything bigger than a 1.4. Any money saved by people who used to drive big engined cars should be taken in tax.
This is obviously a ridiculously unfair idea, just like yours.

I think the parameters on engine size have changed - VW do a 170hp 1.4.
I think the c02 system is fine. Changes had to be made if the old system hadn't been changed the current engine sizes produced by manufacturers would have people paying low tax driving high power cars.
In a few years time people will forget pre 08' cars . The world moves on for god's sake.
In 2015 people will be buying used 3.0l diesels and enjoying low tax on them because of changes made - In a way the new system will preserve the future of efficient (ish) luxo barges.
Consider it this way a 535d currently sits in the C bracket - 2015 at less than 20k and tax at 300eu to tax no problem shifting it!

Voodoomelon

Not true. What happens in 5-10 years when everyone is paying €156 motor tax and the government is loosing €100s of millions in revenue? They'll increase every bracket wind up back at square one.

They're better off admitting that C02 based tax has nothing to do with the environment and introducing a fairer, more economical system for both the state and the motorist.

maxfresh

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Not true. What happens in 5-10 years when everyone is paying €156 motor tax and the government is loosing €100s of millions in revenue? They'll increase every bracket wind up back at square one.

They're better off admitting that C02 based tax has nothing to do with the environment and introducing a fairer, more economical system for both the state and the motorist.

I agree with this , when most of the pre 08 cars are phased out , there is no way the government will leave the rates as they are , i can see big increases in future budgets

commited

This argument has been had again and again!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75080202 - lots of opinions and info there

Cookie_Monster

unkel wrote: »

Motor tax should be based purely on how much you pollute. This can only be measured accurately by how much fuel you use. Ah! so we put the tax on fuel!

100% tax compliance (you don't pay tax, car won't start)

zero costs of collecting the tax (excise is already collected for free by the petrol stations)

100% fair system: the polluter pays

If only some politicians had the balls to implement it :rolleyes:

so what of freight vehicles that run up huge fuel bills on the higher rate and past those costs on to the consumer by raising the price or everything

Voodoomelon

This can be resolved by charging a fixed rate per vehicle and allowing them to offset the fuel cost increase against their tax returns.

Wexfordian

Voodoomelon wrote: »

This can be resolved by charging a fixed rate per vehicle and allowing them to offset the fuel cost increase against their tax returns.

And lo, you have found a job for the motor tax office staff

galwaytt

unkel wrote: »

If only some politicians had the balls to implement it :rolleyes:

And seeing as you mention it, the electorate need to have the balls to get on to politicians about it as well.... No point moaning about amongst ourselves......see my thread 'Pre Budget Submissions' . . .knocking around here somewhere.....ah yes, here it is...: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75338247

trellheim

That other thread is talking about taxing Fuel. I'm asking for opinions on a high flat tax rate, yes I know they're related. I think it's needed because of the revenue it'll bring in. Yes its not pretty. Yes It'll go down like a lead balloon. We need the tax money.

2000 a motor say. ( And tax fuel etc all you want )

2.63 million x 2000 = 5.2 billion, i.e. 4.2 billion extra, that's some real money.

-Chris-

You're merely creating a tax on the poor.

It's like suggesting a flat tax on all income - everyone pays €40k tax per year, no matter how much they earn.

It's a terrible idea imho.

x in the city

challengemaster wrote: »

More like 340 would be good

since moving to the uk i cant believe how much i was raped up the hole for motor tax in Ireland.

is Irish motor tax the most expensive this side of uranus?

Mc Love

Its Road tax isnt it?


:P

Guy:Incognito

x in the city wrote: »

is Irish motor tax the most expensive this side of uranus?

No.

Your probably pay much more council tax over there than you were here.

Mr.Boots

Taxing petrol is unfair on people who have to travel distances to work now because of recession (no jobs locally)
I know a few people doing this and the extra 37c per litre as sugested would probably be the straw that broke the camals back...perhaps putting them on the Dole.

The current system isnt feasible in the longterm so it will have to be changed.
I think a tax on car value might work (like BIK)
It would be hard to detmine the value of cars but if you had Band A,B,C etc.
Band A= cars up to and over 100k
Band B= cars 80-100k

It may sound complicated...but its very doable

Voodoomelon

I don't think it would effect everyone as much as you think. What does a commuter travel, say 18000 miles? Thats €750 a year at 37c extra a litre. The average tax bill of pre 08 cars isn't a million miles off that figure.

And if you have a post 08 car, chances are you can afford to pay €750 a year, and not a paltry €156 or similar.

heate

Like bik? Bik is a punitive tax on cars as it is only based on the original market value - a company car driver is in many cases better off buying their own car!
Taxing cars based on their cost will make more expensive ones totally worthless in the longer term and consequently the gov will lose all revenue associated with high end cars.
Road tax at the moment seems to be leaving a bitter taste - but if I buy a car for 100k the government gets a huge amount of tax up front will cover the ehm 'wealth' tax element.

johnos1984

The old tax system is a pain for the minority that drive large engined cars.

It is the future pain of anyone driving a post 08 car

Mr.Boots

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I don't think it would effect everyone as much as you think. What does a commuter travel, say 18000 miles? Thats €750 a year at 37c extra a litre. The average tax bill of pre 08 cars isn't a million miles off that figure.

And if you have a post 08 car, chances are you can afford to pay €750 a year, and not a paltry €156 or similar.

Its an extra 18 euros on an average 70 euro fill.........id call it a grand a year.....alot if your driving a 10 year old junker........good value if your in a new 530d

Mr.Boots

heate wrote: »

Like bik? Bik is a punitive tax on cars as it is only based on the original market value - a company car driver is in many cases better off buying their own car!
Taxing cars based on their cost will make more expensive ones totally worthless in the longer term and consequently the gov will lose all revenue associated with high end cars.
Road tax at the moment seems to be leaving a bitter taste - but if I buy a car for 100k the government gets a huge amount of tax up front will cover the ehm 'wealth' tax element.

Perhaps you took me up wrong....
I said tax a car on its value (current....not new)

Eg.
New S class merc (100k value) high tax
Old S class merc (5k value) low tax

CianRyan

If some one's driving from Navan to Dublin everyday, they'll be doing more damage than some one driving the same car from Terenure to the city everyday, they deserve to pay more tax.
If an extra €750 a year is too much I'm sure they can cut back on the amount luxeries they have and/or car pool.

I definitely agree with including motor tax in fuel.
Don't Australia already use this method?

Mr.Boots

CianRyan wrote: »

If some one's driving from Navan to Dublin everyday, they'll be doing more damage than some one driving the same car from Terenure to the city everyday, they deserve to pay more tax.
If an extra €750 a year is too much I'm sure they can cut back on the amount luxeries they have and/or car pool.

I definitely agree with including motor tax in fuel.
Don't Australia already use this method?

I do think its a good idea....i just think it might hit people who are allready streched........maybe not this budget is what i mean.

CianRyan

I can agree with that I guess. My family took it hard enough and my mam can only pay for 3/6 months at a time on her 09 Mazda 6 1.8 petrol. When it comes time to change again I think this would be the best option.

You can even lower your own tax by excercising and having a safer driving style. Can't see that as a bad thing.

heate

Sorry about the bik rant it was a pet peeve of mine!

What's all this carbon tax crap that's been applied surely that in conjunction with c02 based car taxes is enough!

It would seem that a majority of members of this forum would suggest higher fuel prices to reduce their pre 08 high car tax bills?

I own a pre 08 2996cc car back in Dublin - yeh I feel it's unfair that I've to pay so much money for a car I use on ocassion but I bought the car with the full knowledge of the tax implications.

Taxes on engines that size have always been high!

In fact my car would be taxed at €1050 on the new system (224g/km)

Take it at 8000km annually and petrol at €1.50 my road tax and fuel cost combined is c.€2800 (assuming 12l average).
Had I bought in 08 I'd of saved €250 - not a huge amount in grand scheme of things!

What I'm getting at is that with c02 rates the government is actually penalising the polluter - higher c02 - higher tax.
Higher c02 less l/100km (the two are directly related). And if you are using more fuel the government is getting more tax out of you.
If you use more fuel you effectively pay more tax. Manufactures have reached a point where efficiency isn't just confined to mainstream cars. So the taxes no reflect that more accurately.

Yakuza

heate wrote: »

What I'm getting at is that with c02 rates the government is actually penalising the polluter - higher c02 - higher tax.

Not true. The current system is based on ownership. For a truly fair "polluter pays"-based tax, the tax should be removed from being based on the mere fact of owning a car to how much you use it.

If I had an M6 convertible (I can dream, right ?:)) outside my house and only use it on sunny weekend days in the year, how is is fair that I pay 20 times more tax than someone with, say, a BlueMotion Polo doing 100s of km a week? An extreme example I know, but it shows how the current system isn't based on a true polluter pays principle.

mandrake04

CianRyan wrote: »

If some one's driving from Navan to Dublin everyday, they'll be doing more damage than some one driving the same car from Terenure to the city everyday, they deserve to pay more tax.
If an extra €750 a year is too much I'm sure they can cut back on the amount luxeries they have and/or car pool.

I definitely agree with including motor tax in fuel.
Don't Australia already use this method?

No we pay registration here also known as Rego. Its a set price for depending on the mass of your car.

I have a 2011 3.6L V6 (284hp) commodore and the rego is about $450 (€335)

(I actually pay $660 because its for business use)

and my wife has a 2008 3.4TD Toyota Land Cruiser Prado and the Rego for it is $450.

Those prices are for NSW

Nothing to do with Fuel.

Cookie_Monster

mandrake04 wrote: »

No we pay registration here also known as Rego. Its a set price for depending on the mass of your car.

I have a 2011 3.6L V6 (284hp) commodore and the rego is about $450 (€335)

(I actually pay $660 because its for business use)

and my wife has a 2008 3.4TD Toyota Land Cruiser Prado and the Rego for it is $450.

Those prices are for NSW

Nothing to do with Fuel.

NZ has similar, there is a reg fee per annum, not sure what rate is dependant on as I have not checked if engine size etc even matters. My 3.5L is 287 NZD (€166) and there is tax on the fuel but it's still only €1.18 equiv for 91 RON (standard).
There is also "road user tax" on diesel and electrics but diesel is only 88c equiv

corktina

putting the tax on petrol will accomplish three things...
1 higher prices for most goods as the higher mileage users now tend to be business users,
2 more profits for NI petrol stations and
3 a boom for the black-marketeers. Compare with the rise of cigarette smuggling.

mandrake04

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

NZ has similar, there is a reg fee per annum, not sure what rate is dependant on as I have not checked if engine size etc even matters. My 3.5L is 287 NZD (€166) and there is tax on the fuel but it's still only €1.18 equiv for 91 RON (standard).
There is also "road user tax" on diesel and electrics but diesel is only 88c equiv

A Ferrari Enzo 6L V12 @ 1365kg is in the 1155 to 1504 Kg range and is only $313

How f**led is that?


ULP is only €1.03

trellheim

In response to a poster above , VAT is also a tax on the poor yet still the country goes on. I believe if motor tax went up to 2K we'd still see the same number of cars on the roads. Ignoring the personal impact, that is a potential revenue stream the Govt. cannot ignore.

Sobanek

I'm still stunned at how poor this country is after all the taxes.
VRT, Motor Tax, VAT, NCT (although I'm not sure how much goes to the government from that), our insurance is in theory taxed as well since the insurance company pays the corp. tax. Duty on Fuel...
And those are just taxes we pay on our cars.
And this country needs 2 billion in cuts? :pac:

gpjordanf1

Yakuza wrote: »

Not true. The current system is based on ownership. For a truly fair "polluter pays"-based tax, the tax should be removed from being based on the mere fact of owning a car to how much you use it.

If I had an M6 convertible (I can dream, right ?:)) outside my house and only use it on sunny weekend days in the year, how is is fair that I pay 20 times more tax than someone with, say, a BlueMotion Polo doing 100s of km a week? An extreme example I know, but it shows how the current system isn't based on a true polluter pays principle.

Doubt a Polo bluemotion would put out as much crap in a month as an M6 would put out over one weekend of Fun driving!

I think a flate rate of about €300 per car per year with an increase of 20c at the pumps should do it. The €300 a year could be taxed at source, paye, social welfare, pension, DD from bank, online. Close majority motor tax offices and centralise it to shannon.

Have a seperate pump for commercial vehicles only and a seperate taxation system for them as the private road use system would be punative to them! Also tag this diesel with an easily identifable inert chemical that can be tested quickly from the exhaust if any private road users avail of it and fine the bastards heavily!

Simples!

Voodoomelon

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Its an extra 18 euros on an average 70 euro fill.........id call it a grand a year.....alot if your driving a 10 year old junker........good value if your in a new 530d

As I said, €750 a year if you average 40MPG, hardly a stretch.

Maybe you mean it will be the straw that breaks the camels back for people who currently don't bother paying motor tax?

Paparazzo

trellheim wrote: »

In response to a poster above , VAT is also a tax on the poor yet still the country goes on. I believe if motor tax went up to 2K we'd still see the same number of cars on the roads. Ignoring the personal impact, that is a potential revenue stream the Govt. cannot ignore.

if you think motor tax going up to 2k won't effect the amount of cars on the road, you're living in dreamland. And if you think any minister would even suggest 2k, you're still living in dreamland. It's a career ending move for a politician

x in the city

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No.

Your probably pay much more council tax over there than you were here.

but it goes both ways, cheaper cars, tax, electrical devices, free nhs.

trellheim

Difficult times demand difficult measures. 2000 is high but those who needed to drive will find it.

The current govermnent was voted in to try and fix the mess. 4.2 billion extra is not chickenfeed, and therefore not political suicide at all.


You know I didn't believe there would be much support but I didn't think there would be this level of ultra-negativity. I think people underestimate exactly how deep this country is in the doo-doo.

woodoo

unkel wrote: »

Motor tax should be based purely on how much you pollute. This can only be measured accurately by how much fuel you use. Ah! so we put the tax on fuel!

100% tax compliance (you don't pay tax, car won't start)

zero costs of collecting the tax (excise is already collected for free by the petrol stations)

100% fair system: the polluter pays

If only some politicians had the balls to implement it :rolleyes:

I agree and perhaps some sort of fuel tax back for people who drive for a living.

woodoo

trellheim wrote: »

Say 1000 or 1500 euro annually, 2000 is too much-ish.

They are big numbers OP. I couldn't afford that level of road tax.

inforfun

OP,

I think i read here you alredy pay 1600.
So for you it would mean a 25% increase.

I on the other hand pay 440 now and mine would go up 4/500% with your idea.

I think there are other places a few billion could be saved.

Paparazzo

trellheim wrote: »

Difficult times demand difficult measures. 2000 is high but those who needed to drive will find it.

The current govermnent was voted in to try and fix the mess. 4.2 billion extra is not chickenfeed, and therefore not political suicide at all.


You know I didn't believe there would be much support but I didn't think there would be this level of ultra-negativity. I think people underestimate exactly how deep this country is in the doo-doo.

You think increasing motor tax by 1000% for some people wouldn't be political suicide?
There's no support for it, and it'll never happen because it's a crazy idea!