GP with interest in alternative medicine?

maireann

Hey, I'm looking for a GP in Dublin 6, 6W who wouldn't be big into antibiotics first thing, but rather going the herbal route. It's funny how health care professionals here are either or... Anybody out there who has trained in conventional medicine but might have extra qualifications in more holistic approaches?
Appreciate your help!

Degsy

maireann wrote: »

Hey, I'm looking for a GP in Dublin 6, 6W who wouldn't be big into antibiotics first thing, but rather going the herbal route. It's funny how health care professionals here are either or... Anybody out there who has trained in conventional medicine but might have extra qualifications in more holistic approaches?
Appreciate your help!

So do you want a GP or a quack?

maireann

Haha, that's exactly the attitude I was talking about

BeerNut

"You know what they call alternative medicine that works?

"Medicine."

(Linky)

_blank_

now that the stand-up comedians have had their say, anyone got any helpful replies?

Paxmanwithinfo

You could call it complimentary medicine but not alternative.

Avoid homeopathy as there is zero positive research but many rich people on the back of dangerous and downright negligent quackery.

Death can result more often if you choose a non conventional route for a serious undiagnosed illness but go for gold it is YOUR decision afterall. Just don't extend this logic to any innocent children - for their sake.

Paxmanwithinfo

If you forgive me for the initial outburst, most GPs that I know (and I know many) actually face an uphill battle to stem the amount of requests for antibiotics that they are bombarded with. Many people seem to think they have had a successful trip to the GP if they emerge with script in hand.

A sensible doctor who believes there is no need for an antibiotic (most in most instances) will write a post dated prescription and advise the patient to have it dispensed and take it at that point in the future. In most cases the body itself will have healed in the interim.

The incidental finding of a lump on your breast / testicle would be the real bonus of the visit.

endacl

Des wrote: »

now that the stand-up comedians have had their say, anyone got any helpful replies?

I thought they were all helpful. Medical doctors tend not to peddle snake oil with good reason, and its not about squeaky snakes...

Degsy

Well if a medical doctor diagnoses a gram-negative infection he will prescribe antibiotics known to treat that particular illness.

He wont however tell you that you'd recive medically beneficial results from sleeping with a crystal under your pillow during a full moon.

Its either medicine or its magic.

mcmoustache

I think that such doctors would be hard to find. Most doctors, in my opinion, would be scientifically minded and would dismiss unproven quackery as quackery. Likewise, quacks are quacks because there's money to be made without actually getting trained in medicine which is very difficult.

Essentially, doctors are too smart to believe quackery and quacks are too thick to become doctors. For this reason, there wouldn't be much of an overlap.

I did see a documentary on homeopathy and the NHS years ago and it did feature a doctor who practices homeopathy so I'm sure that such people exist, just that there wouldn't be many.

Out of curiosity, what do you want from this doctor that requires an "alternative" component?

Jocasta

I don't know if this is actually helpful as he is not in your area, but there is a doctor in the Slievemore Clinic in Stillorgan called Brendan Fitzpatrick who is a GP but also embraces alternative methods. Link: http://www.slievemore-clinic.com/health.php?page=94
Maybe if you get in touch they could recommend someone closer to you?

Paxmanwithinfo

It's important to note that they are not typically alternative methods but complimentary (if anything).

Also as for dispensing antibiotics when necessary - sure thing. It's like taking pain relief for pain. Why not take it? (Usually) Unless you have some form of stoic conviction. What is annoying is the suggestion sometimes by pharmacists sales agents that you also take "pro-biotics"??? With antibiotics. Nonesense in my view based on current research.

I mean, where is the evidence? Evidence based medicine. What are "pro-biotics"? Have you seen the sugar level in most?

Thankfully, proper research is begining in this area now. Hopefully they will be proven complimentary. Or become teh standard trestment. I doubt it though.

desertcircus

maireann wrote: »

Hey, I'm looking for a GP in Dublin 6, 6W who wouldn't be big into antibiotics first thing, but rather going the herbal route. It's funny how health care professionals here are either or... Anybody out there who has trained in conventional medicine but might have extra qualifications in more holistic approaches?
Appreciate your help!

It would be worth considering why you're finding it so hard to find a properly qualified healthcare professional willing to recommend such treatments. You would be better served by reading Bad Science by Ben Goldacre.

fred252

If I learnt my GP was into alternative medicine he would cease to be my GP.

endacl

fred252 wrote: »

If I learnt my GP was into alternative medicine he would cease to be my GP.

That about sums it up.
Witchdoctors are for sick witches. Stay away from holistic therapy unless there's something wrong with your hole.

maireann

mcmoustache wrote: »

I think that such doctors would be hard to find. Most doctors, in my opinion, would be scientifically minded and would dismiss unproven quackery as quackery. Likewise, quacks are quacks because there's money to be made without actually getting trained in medicine which is very difficult.

Essentially, doctors are too smart to believe quackery and quacks are too thick to become doctors. For this reason, there wouldn't be much of an overlap.

I did see a documentary on homeopathy and the NHS years ago and it did feature a doctor who practices homeopathy so I'm sure that such people exist, just that there wouldn't be many.

Out of curiosity, what do you want from this doctor that requires an "alternative" component?

If you're knowledge about homeopathy comes from a documentary only you've probably never been to a good homeopath (is it them you refer to as quacks?), so how do you know they're not as "smart" as doctors? The training involved there is quite challenging as well, especially because you have to think for yourself (to get to the cause of the illness) and can't just consult a manual of what to prescribe for which symptoms.
To answer your last question, it's just life-long experience and having been in the hands of a few very incompetent doctors, which makes me seek out those whose horizon extends a bit further.

@Jocasta Thanks so much for the link! Will definitely give them a ring

thirtythirty

Steve Jobs died because he went the alternative medicine route. He would have been saved if he hadn't wasted his time with it at the start, and he was quoted as regretting it.

If it's anything serious OP, please get real advice. Knock yourself out if it's for a bout of the sniffles though

Halal Butcher

spottyelephant wrote: »

Steve Jobs died because he went the alternative medicine route. He would have been saved if he hadn't wasted his time with it at the start, and he was quoted as regretting it.

If it's anything serious OP, please get real advice. Knock yourself out if it's for a bout of the sniffles though

Steve Jobs died because he had pancreatic cancer which has about a 5% survival rate.

If the OP believes in alternative medicine then it's more likely to work for her, depending what the problem is of course.

There is a very high percentage of medicine handed out by GPs which has not yet been proven to be anymore beneficial than the placebo effect, which kinda makes a mockery of a lot of the argument here.

Degsy

maireann wrote: »

you've probably never been to a good homeopath (is it them you refer to as quacks?), so how do you know they're not as "smart" as doctors?

Of course its quackery..the idea that if you dilute some element in water so much that there's no trace of the element detectable that it somehow potentiates whatever healing property it supposedly has?

Pure garbage and peddling this sort of mumbo jumbo to sick people is an utter disgrace.

Homeopaths are in it strictly to line thier own pockets and they're quacks of the worst sort.

trishasaffron

This is descending into a diatribe about homeopathy. I, like the OP, much prefer a doctor with an open mind to complementary medicine. My definition of complementary medicine is much wider than homeopathy or indeed any specific alternative. Its really about finding someone with a holistic approach prepared patiently and cleverly to look at all apects of ill-health and to look at a wide range of solution (including antibiotics if necessary). I find most doctors and particularly specialist are quite narrow minded insofar as they have read the book and been trained in a specific way and are too nervous or arrogant to move outside that. Since time began the best doctors have used a broad based approach.

BTW I have used Brendan Fizpatrick and he has a nice holistic approach.

thirtythirty

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Steve Jobs died because he had pancreatic cancer which has about a 5% survival rate.

What are you on? Alternative medicine removed the window of opportunity for cutting out the cancer before it spread.

The point is not whether he would have definately survived or not, but that the alternative medicine definately wasn't going to save his life, and probably exacerbated the issue.

Halal Butcher wrote: »

If the OP believes in alternative medicine then it's more likely to work for her, depending what the problem is of course.

Ha. This pretty much sums up alternative medicine.

I believe that clapping my hands 3 times before I go to bed will improve my chances of not getting cancer in the future, is it more likely to work for me because I believe it versus the guy in the UK who just happens to clap his hands 3 times before bed?

Stark

maireann wrote: »

If you're knowledge about homeopathy comes from a documentary only you've probably never been to a good homeopath (is it them you refer to as quacks?), so how do you know they're not as "smart" as doctors? The training involved there is quite challenging as well, especially because you have to think for yourself (to get to the cause of the illness) and can't just consult a manual of what to prescribe for which symptoms.
To answer your last question, it's just life-long experience and having been in the hands of a few very incompetent doctors, which makes me seek out those whose horizon extends a bit further.

The training a priest goes through is very rigorous. That doesn't mean I'd choose prayer over scientifically verified treatment.

Halal Butcher

spottyelephant wrote: »

What are you on? Alternative medicine removed the window of opportunity for cutting out the cancer before it spread.

The point is not whether he would have definately survived or not, but that the alternative medicine definately wasn't going to save his life, and probably exacerbated the issue.

From your article "...it appears likely that Jobs did indeed decrease his chances of survival through his nine month sojourn into woo. On the other hand, it still remains very unclear by just how much he decreased his chances of survival. My best guesstimate is that, thanks to the indolent nature of functional insulinomas and lead time bias, it was probably only by a relatively small percentage. This leads me to point out that accepting that Jobs' choice probably decreased somewhat his chances of of surving his cancer is a very different thing than concluding that "alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs."

Ha. This pretty much sums up alternative medicine.

I believe that clapping my hands 3 times before I go to bed will improve my chances of not getting cancer in the future, is it more likely to work for me because I believe it versus the guy in the UK who just happens to clap his hands 3 times before bed?

That's pretty much how the placebo effect works, yes.

The behavioural economist Dan Ariely has done a lot of interesting research on the placebo effect which is worth looking up

Stark

Paxmanwithinfo wrote: »

Also as for dispensing antibiotics when necessary - sure thing. It's like taking pain relief for pain. Why not take it? (Usually) Unless you have some form of stoic conviction. What is annoying is the suggestion sometimes by pharmacists sales agents that you also take "pro-biotics"??? With antibiotics. Nonesense in my view based on current research.

Antibiotics kill gut flora. Probiotics can be useful for staving off diarrhoea if you're taking a long dose of antibiotics. There is some evidence that they're effective in this regard.

Tbh, I could see how "alternative medicine" would be a useful tool for a GP if they wanted to "treat" hypochondriacs, the "I like a prescription of paracetamol with my morning coffee" and the "Why can't you treat my/my child's sniffles?" brigade. Where it gets dangerous is when they start to claim that they can treat conditions other than self-limiting moany git conditions.

(Case in point, I remember my dad being riddled with pain a few years ago because he went to a chiropractor to treat a complaint he had. Things only got better after he went to a real doctor to seek treatment).

Halal Butcher wrote:

From your article "...it appears likely that Jobs did indeed decrease his chances of survival through his nine month sojourn into woo. On the other hand, it still remains very unclear by just how much he decreased his chances of survival. My best guesstimate is that, thanks to the indolent nature of functional insulinomas and lead time bias, it was probably only by a relatively small percentage. This leads me to point out that accepting that Jobs' choice probably decreased somewhat his chances of of surving his cancer is a very different thing than concluding that "alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs."

I'll take "slightly decreased chances" of death over "slightly increased chances" any day thank you.

Halal Butcher

Stark wrote: »

I'll take "slightly decreased chances" of death over "slightly increased chances" any day thank you.

A slight increase on 5% still doesn't augur well.

Paparazzo

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Steve Jobs died because he had pancreatic cancer which has about a 5% survival rate.

If the OP believes in alternative medicine then it's more likely to work for her, depending what the problem is of course.

There is a very high percentage of medicine handed out by GPs which has not yet been proven to be anymore beneficial than the placebo effect, which kinda makes a mockery of a lot of the argument here.

What percentage?
Is it higher than the 100% that homeopaths hand out?

Halal Butcher

Paparazzo wrote: »

What percentage?
Is it higher than the 100% that homeopaths hand out?

85% of new medicines according to research in 2009, and a total of 80%, IIRC, of all medicines in a 1990's study in America.

maireann

Paparazzo wrote: »

What percentage?
Is it higher than the 100% that homeopaths hand out?

Seems like you haven't done your research. Will I give you a few links to medical studies on the subject?

thirtythirty

Halal Butcher wrote: »

From your article "...it appears likely that Jobs did indeed decrease his chances of survival through his nine month sojourn into woo. On the other hand, it still remains very unclear by just how much he decreased his chances of survival. My best guesstimate is that, thanks to the indolent nature of functional insulinomas and lead time bias, it was probably only by a relatively small percentage. This leads me to point out that accepting that Jobs' choice probably decreased somewhat his chances of of surving his cancer is a very different thing than concluding that "alternative medicine killed Steve Jobs."

That's exactly my point - chances of survival decreased due to wasted time with alternative medicine. Thanks for clarifying that.

Halal Butcher wrote: »

That's pretty much how the placebo effect works, yes.

The behavioural economist Dan Ariely has done a lot of interesting research on the placebo effect which is worth looking up

Again yes, your essentially stating yourself that alternative medicines have no medicinal qualities - it's all in the mind of the person. And it doesn't matter how much someone with diabetes or a tumour believe they don't have it, because they do.

Both your points back up the fact that alternative medicines should only be used when there are no actual medical requirements, and the person simply wants something to help them to take a positive attitude to getting over the sniffles quickly.

Degsy

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cancer.html

This is quite long but worth a read.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

Halal Butcher

spottyelephant wrote: »

That's exactly my point - chances of survival decreased due to wasted time with alternative medicine. Thanks for clarifying that.

You're welcome.

Again yes, your essentially stating yourself that alternative medicines have no medicinal qualities - it's all in the mind of the person. And it doesn't matter how much someone with diabetes or a tumour believe they don't have it, because they do.

Both your points back up the fact that alternative medicines should only be used when there are no actual medical requirements, and the person simply wants something to help them to take a positive attitude to getting over the sniffles quickly.

Which is why I stated in my original post that it depends for what reason she is attending the GP in the first place.

altough I wouldn't necessarily agree that there are no alternative medicines which have no medicinal properties.

johnmacward

Ok, you either want a proper doctor or a fool. You can't have both. Why are you looking for a doctor when you don't want them to practice proper methods.

How about you go to a standard GP and let them know you want to avoid the use of antibiotics as much as possible. They wont kick you out and will understand your concerns.

Degsy

Halal Butcher wrote: »

Which is why I stated in my original post that it depends for what reason she is attending the GP in the first place.

.

Well i'm sort of old fashiooned and only ever attend a GP when i'm actually sick..at 50 euro per visit i certainly wouldnt be going there for a chat.

Paparazzo

Halal Butcher wrote: »

85% of new medicines according to research in 2009, and a total of 80%, IIRC, of all medicines in a 1990's study in America.

So, that's 85% of new drugs in america offer few benefits.
Sounds like a hell of a lot lower than 100%. And the highlited words mean either it'v very vague, and doesn't apply in ireland.

snickerpuss

I know of a number of GPs (and one consultant) who do acupuncture. But I'm not sure that's really what you're looking for.

mcmoustache

maireann wrote: »

If you're knowledge about homeopathy comes from a documentary only you've probably never been to a good homeopath (is it them you refer to as quacks?), so how do you know they're not as "smart" as doctors?

First, I fear that you have comprehension problems. My post did not say that I gained my knowledge about homeopathy from a documentary. I was just giving an example of a trained doctor who practiced homeopathy to demonstrate that such people exist. How you managed to misinterpret that is a mystery.

Second, I know that homeopaths are dumber than doctors because they believe that treating an ailment with water is more effective than treating an ailment with water. That's pretty dumb right there and I don't think that I need to go into detail about the multi-discipline training that is required for someone to be a doctor.

maireann wrote: »

The training involved there is quite challenging as well, especially because you have to think for yourself (to get to the cause of the illness) and can't just consult a manual of what to prescribe for which symptoms.

A homeopath prescribes water for everything. All the rest is just window dressing to make the practitioner and "patient" believe that there's something medical or sciency going on. Homeopaths can study for a day or for four years but in the end, all that they've done is learn ever more complicated ways of giving people water.

maireann wrote: »

To answer your last question, it's just life-long experience and having been in the hands of a few very incompetent doctors, which makes me seek out those whose horizon extends a bit further.

You really should seek out better doctors or even a herbalist because certain herbs do produce pharmacological effects but don't fall for the idea that pure water can treat anything more than thirst.

spagboll

I'd be very surprised if their is such a GP, but some would be more willing than others to engage in a meaningful conversation about it

so has anyone ever chatted about alternative medicine with their GP?

Owen

So the premise of Homeopathy is that water has a 'memory' (B*llocks, it has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen) and that it can remember the properties of whatever was in, no matter how much you dilute it - so they dilute it to the point where you'd find it hard to isolate even one drop of the original vial containing the item in question in an entire swimming pool.

So if that's the case, why doesn't water remember the properties of poo, used condoms, snot, shampoo, semen, nappies, used tampons and other stuff which has also been floating in it?

Stark

Owen wrote: »

So the premise of Homeopathy is that water has a 'memory' (B*llocks, it has two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen) and that it can remember the properties of whatever was in, no matter how much you dilute it - so they dilute it to the point where you'd find it hard to isolate even one drop of the original vial containing the item in question in an entire swimming pool.

So if that's the case, why doesn't water remember the properties of poo, used condoms, snot, shampoo, semen, nappies, used tampons and other stuff which has also been floating in it?

Because you have to bang the vial of water against a leather-bound book a few times before it "remembers" what was suspended in it.

Of course that doesn't sound like modern day witchcraft at all.

MagicMarker

maireann wrote: »

If you're knowledge about homeopathy comes from a documentary only you've probably never been to a good homeopath

You realise it's just water? Like, from a tap?

Paxmanwithinfo

"Hey, I'm looking for a GP in Dublin 6, 6W who wouldn't be big into antibiotics first thing, but rather going the herbal route. It's funny how health care professionals here are either or... Anybody out there who has trained in conventional medicine but might have extra qualifications in more holistic approaches?
Appreciate your help!"

Dear OP,

Depending on the nature and seriousness of your illness why not try a herbalist like Sean Boylan if the herbal route is your preferred route? He is not D6 however, but a lot of people do sing his praises.

floorpie

I love the implied dichotomy created here by everybody between good doctors (ones that aren't afraid to dispense antibiotics, for example) and quack doctors (ones that seek alternative solutions).

I'd never suggest homeopathy, specifically, to anybody - it does seem like quackery to me - but at the same time, there's nothing wrong with alternative solutions. For example, I don't think i've never heard of a GP recommending a solid diet (i.e. not the food pyramid) to anybody, and i'd hedge a bet that a sizable chunk of conditions/cases GP's see are purely caused by diet. There's an alternative solution.

More fundamentally than this, though, i don't think i've ever been to a GP who seemed interested in, not only solutions, but even just helping a patient feel like they're being treated well, whereas i'd imagine that a homeopath would make sure that there's at least a perception of good treatment seeing as that might be all they have going for them.

So what i mean is, the dichotomy here is silly, because a non-quack doctor isn't automatically a good doctor. In fact, in my experience, many of them are bad, and she's not wrong to feel like she should shop around.

But just find a better GP.

endacl

If homeopathy worked, the whole city of Dublin should be in great health. Didn't a months worth of free medicine fall out of the sky in the course of a few hours there about a month ago? Sure parts of the town were under 3 feet of medicine. Unless the medicine was having a flashback to being at the bottom if the sea...

eilo1

snickerpuss wrote: »

I know of a number of GPs (and one consultant) who do acupuncture. But I'm not sure that's really what you're looking for.

I had a look at some research on acupuncture a while ago. I think the general consenses is that acupuncture shows some benefit for some conditions such as anxiety and stress. But shows a very poor return for the money you pay for it.
But interestingly one study they compared real acupunture with sham acupuncture (so they just put the needles anywhere rather than into specific spots). They found the sham had an equall effect to the real acupunture. Further discrediting the theory behind it.

shadowcomplex

Degsy wrote: »

Well i'm sort of old fashiooned and only ever attend a GP when i'm actually sick..at 50 euro per visit i certainly wouldnt be going there for a chat.

you must go alot so

_blank_

shadowcomplex wrote: »

you must go alot so

banned for trolling

HivemindXX

There's a big difference between a GP who will suggest you drink herbal tea or meditate to reduce stress as a remedy for nausea and one who suggests homeopathic 'remedies'.

I've had anything from diet change to excercise suggested by my GP and have more than once come out without a prescription of any sort. I trust them to know what they are talking about and to prescribe hard drugs when they feel I need them.

Homeopathy is not a part of alternative/complementary/whatever medicine, it is a scam. The very best interpretation that could be put on it is that it is a placebo and you may as well go to a psychic or carry your lucky stick if that's all you need.

supersheeps

I think there's a lot of emphasis being placed on homeopathy here, but that's just one branch of alternative medicine, and a pretty dodgy one at that. I always rather a doctor with an interest in complementary medicine over a "purist" doctor, they're generally more open-minded and more likely to recommend something other than a bunch of pills.
Case in point-when I moved to my hubby's hometown, I started using his family doctor, having had a complementary approach doctor for years. I found him to be prescription happy (giving me steroids and two inhalers for asthma symptoms which ended up being caused by mold spores in my room) and thought he made some really odd diagnosises (?) when treating the in-laws, such as having someone on anti-depressants for well over 15 years with no suggestions of counselling or changes to a very sedentary lifestyle.
My hubby had stomach problems for years, doctor kept prescribing him ulcer meds, "just in case", but no other advice. My old doctor would have recommended food exclusion diets, etc, to see if there were aggravating factors (worked for me, diagnosed with lactose intolerance, no tummy woes ), so I asked around to see if there was any similar doctor in the area. Got recommended a doctor with training in herbalism and acupuncture as well as "straight" medicine, so hubby reluctantly went along. She asked him about his lifestyle as well as his symptoms, pretty much immediately said that she thought he was coeliac and sent him to be tested. Yep, he's coeliac, and much healthier all round now! In-laws still see the old doctor and still have a full press of tablets to take everyday, with no serious health issues to justify this.
So, long story short, give me a doctor who recommends lemon and ginger "tea" for a cold or manuka honey for a sore throat rather than dishing out antibiotics any day!
OP-if you're still looking for someone, PM me for my doctor in Dublin's details, she's interested in alternative medicines (except for homeopathy!)

Coriolanus

snickerpuss wrote: »

I know of a number of GPs (and one consultant) who do acupuncture. But I'm not sure that's really what you're looking for.

Acuptuncture is one of the few alternative medicines to have proven itself in clinical trials.

issi

Dear God, Maireann, I'm sorry you've had to put up with so many ignorant replies to your question and only a few of any help.
I too have been looking for a gp who is more alternatively open, or willing to support my interest in using other methods of healthcare.
If you are still looking, you can pm me and I'll share with you what I have so far found, or maybe we could swap the info we've gathered...
Best of luck.

schemingbohemia

issi wrote: »

Dear God, Maireann, I'm sorry you've had to put up with so many ignorant replies to your question and only a few of any help.
I too have been looking for a gp who is more alternatively open, or willing to support my interest in using other methods of healthcare.
If you are still looking, you can pm me and I'll share with you what I have so far found, or maybe we could swap the info we've gathered...
Best of luck.

Ignorant replies? In response to someone proposing the use of homeopathy? Really?:rolleyes:

I've no problem with some aspects of herbalism but homeopathy taints herbalism because it's pure mumbo-jumbo. And the OP never bothered actually including her "evidence" of the efficacy of homeopathy, probably because there is none, certainly none that's better than a placebo.