Mike Tyson where does he rank for you?

walshb

Littlehorny wrote: »

Yes but i ask again walshb, who did Tyson beat in his career? His list of victories is only good at best. This thread is about where does Tyson rank for you, so where do you rate him in the all time list? When you look at a fighters career you have to judge it on what he did do, not what he might have done.

Yes, and he beat what he had to beat. He had more title fights and defenses than Rocky Marciano, a fighter I rate very high. He was the youngest champ, unified the division and beat anyone there at that time.

All time I rate him very high. Top 5.

Look at the division historically.

We have Ali and Louis, and then it really is a matter of opinion....

Liston, Holmes, Dempsey, Holyfield, Marciano, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, Johnson.....

Tyson did as much as many of these did when they were at the top. I would argue that he did more. Holyfield hardly beat greats either if we want to split hairs. He beat an aged Foreman, Cooper, Holmes, lost to Bowe decisively, and lost to Moorer.

StevePH

Littlehorny wrote: »

Yes but i ask again walshb, who did Tyson beat in his career? His list of victories is only good at best. This thread is about where does Tyson rank for you, so where do you rate him in the all time list? When you look at a fighters career you have to judge it on what he did do, not what he might have done.

Think we're gettin closer to sayin who the better fighter was.
Comparing the chins and skills of two men who never met is just fantasy talk.

For me, judging the two men based on their opposition/who they bested is a better way to go.

Watchin Ali play with a Williams/Quarry or watchin Tyson blast out a Berbick/Bruno certainly showcases the skills of each man...but a fighter is sure to look good against lesser opposition.

I prefer to judge them based on how they performed when meetin the same kinda fire they were faced with.

When Ali had to dig deep, he always found a way.

Littlehorny

Think we will have to agree to diagree on this one walshb, i think you overate and maybe i underate him but you said he beat who he had to beat but you can't name a single great fighter he beat. So i just can't see a top 5 for the guy. Tyson burned brightly but quickly so he's not in my top ten but i can see what you see in him and he was a better boxer than alot of people give him credit i.e his defence and alround boxing skill. but opinions will allways differ when it comes to boxers but thats part of the fun!

badabing106

I think Tyson 88-89 would have stopped Ali

drywall

i think tyson had great power,speed,great chin only things missing was the heart of ali and no brain.

StevePH

drywall wrote: »

..... and no brain.

Crazy statement to make. Maybe you meant to comment on his temperament but to question his brain/ring IQ is wrong.

Spazdarn

Littlehorny wrote: »

There is too much talk of a "prime" Tyson this or a "peak" Tyson that on this thread, he either wins his big fights or he doesnt and the fact is Tyson never won a big career defining fight, he beat alot of second rate guys in his early fights and at his so called peak he looked average against Smith, Tucker and Ruddock. No point saying IF he fought Holyfield, Lewis or Bowe he would have blown them away, in the case of the first two, he fought them and he lost to them, end of! When the bully was put under serious pressure in his fights he didnt emerge the victor.
As for Ali, he like Tyson lost his best years cause of a ban but still came back after it to have and win his big fights, also imo the second tier of heavies in Alis career were better than in Tysons era.
I'm not a Tyson hater by any means, his speed and power made him very exciting to watch but factors outside the ring derailed a man who should have been a top5 all timer but unfortunatly he 's somewhere between 10 and 20 in the all time list.

If you're not going to take into account the boxers prime or peak, then I'd say current day Tyson still gives current day Ali a beating!

walshb

Littlehorny wrote: »

Think we will have to agree to diagree on this one walshb, i think you overate and maybe i underate him but you said he beat who he had to beat but you can't name a single great fighter he beat. So i just can't see a top 5 for the guy. Tyson burned brightly but quickly so he's not in my top ten but i can see what you see in him and he was a better boxer than alot of people give him credit i.e his defence and alround boxing skill. but opinions will allways differ when it comes to boxers but thats part of the fun!

He beat Larry Holmes, albeit a faded one, who still went 12 rds with Holyfield when he was even more past it. He beat Michael Spinks; who many rate as a great fighter.

Point is: He was never CLOSE to being beaten in the years 1986-1989. Nobody came close. Pinklon Thomas was a very good heavy. Biggs was very good. Berbick was very good. Tubbs was very good. He not only beat these guys, he dominated them. Aged 20 he destroyed Berbick. 20!

If one compares who Tyson beat to who others beat then he doesn't do too bad at all. Joe Louis? The bum of the month club. Marciano? Love him, but he didn't beat anything special. They all can only fight who is in their time.

Ali is the pinnacle. He competed in the greatest era IMO.

As far as I know ther thread is not who is better, Ali or Tyson, it is how one rates Tyson. No fighter can compare to Ali's era and reighn. Ali competed in the golden era

cowzerp

Fact is Tyson never beat a great, the chances in his 2nd part of his carrier he lost and it's worth noting Holyfield was done aswell and was not long before forced to retire over his dodgy heart.

I love Tyson but he beat ok fighters and impressed against poor opposition, vitali wound be a nightmare for mike at any stage of his career

walshb

Vitali beat ****ing nobody then if Tyson's opposition is poor. This is the point. One can slag Tyson's opposition, but, apart from Ali, who else had a great resume? One that is immune from criticism.

mixed up

Mike tyson was the best heavyweight boxer i ever seen.I'm only 25 so don't remember ali fighting but for all the people knocking tyson i seen ali boxing on espn classic about 2 months ago against either foreman or fraiser and the crowd were booing because they were barely hitting each other.I think it's safe to say the crowd never booed a tyson fight because the man was the last great heavyweight we have seen.I seriously can't believe people think tyson would of lost to the klitch brothers.

Littlehorny

Don't think your going to accept any negative opinions of Tyson to be honest with you Walshb, nothing wrong with that we all have our fav fighters, but none of the guys you named were class fighters imo. You have ran down Holyfield in acouple of threads yet conveniatly forget to mention the fact he beat Tyson -twice. It is too easy to pick 3 or 4 years from Tysons full career and say how great he was. the top heavies in his time were Lewis and Holyfield and he is 0 for 3 against these men.

walshb

Littlehorny wrote: »

Don't think your going to accept any negative opinions of Tyson to be honest with you Walshb, nothing wrong with that we all have our fav fighters, but none of the guys you named were class fighters imo. You have ran down Holyfield in acouple of threads yet conveniatly forget to mention the fact he beat Tyson -twice. It is too easy to pick 3 or 4 years from Tysons full career and say how great he was as the top heavies in his time were Lewis and Holyfield and he is 0 for 3 against these men.

I accept any criticisms leveled at him. He is not my favorite fighter, but for that period I mention, he was a destroyer, a beast. A match for anyone.

Holyfield is one of the true greats. Yes, he beat Mike, but serioulsy, one was even more shot than the other, and one was most likely juicing.

I would back the best version of Tyson over ANY Holyfield. If Bert Cooper can almost do the trick, then Tyson will. Mike won't be hit near as much as he was, will be fitter, faster, stronger etc. Too much for Holyfield.

Lewis beat an absolute shot Tyson. Do I have to compare it to say Spinks beating Ali? It is that similar.

Most of this criticism of Mike is when he came out of prison, a period I agree with you, that he was not great. I am specifically referring to the 1986-1989 veriosn. The criticism for this version is "Who did he beat?" A question I could as about many other great heavies. He beat what was there in that era.

Put it this way. Is there any man in Louis' era that Mike could not have beaten? I say he beats everyone of them, and more decisively.

Ali's era? Frazier and Foreman will be real tough, but I would back Tyson against Foreman. Probably back Frazier to beat Mike. Liston? Another one that could probably beat Mike. Toss up.

Norton, Patterson, Chuvalo, Quarry, Cooper, Shavers, Terrell, Spinks, Bugner etc; no way, Tyson goes through these lads.

So, I am just being realsitic. Lets break Tyson down fairly. No point in bringing up post prison stuff. I cannot and do not rate that fighter as great.

Qusetion: Lewis-Tyson peak to peak. Who you got?

walshb

mixed up wrote: »

Mike tyson was the best heavyweight boxer i ever seen.I'm only 25 so don't remember ali fighting but for all the people knocking tyson i seen ali boxing on espn classic about 2 months ago against either foreman or fraiser and the crowd were booing because they were barely hitting each other.I think it's safe to say the crowd never booed a tyson fight because the man was the last great heavyweight we have seen.I seriously can't believe people think tyson would of lost to the klitch brothers.

They weren't boos due to inaction, I can assure you of that.

Either that or it was not Frazier or Foreman in the ring.

Littlehorny

Ha ha sitting here for good 5 min thinking- prime Tyson vs prime Lewis, have to admit lewis is one of my favs, but keep thinking if these fought 6 times it would 3 each, all depends on what would happen on the night. If Tyson tags him it could be quick night, maybe Lewis jabs and moves, then lands a few later on in fight. Too close to call, both guys need certain things to go there way on the night. 2 totally different fighters and personalities, what your opinion?

walshb

Littlehorny wrote: »

Ha ha sitting here for good 5 min thinking- prime Tyson vs prime Lewis, have to admit lewis is one of my favs, but keep thinking if these fought 6 times it would 3 each, all depends on what would happen on the night. If Tyson tags him it could be quick night, maybe Lewis jabs and moves, then lands a few later on in fight. Too close to call, both guys need certain things to go there way on the night. 2 totally different fighters and personalities, what your opinion?

One night only I would have my house on TYSON. Why? Well, when two bangers meet, I bank on the better chin. And, at peak Mike's chin AND stamina were just superior. He had a really good chin. Also, Lewis will be hit. He hadn't the leg speed of Ali, chin of Ali or elusiveness of Ali.

How does Lewis win? One punch is unlikely. Points? Possible, but he will have to be throwing a lot of leather for 12 rds. He was never the busiest or fittest fighter. I see no real way he can win. He engages, and he gets tagged and most likely knocked out. He moves and tries jabbing, little hope of scoring enough. Simliar to TNT Tucker.

Same reason why I back Tyson vs. Joe Louis. Mike's power and chin. Louis will NOT take a clean shot from
Mike Tyson. Louis was 200 lbs. Tyson was 220 lbs.

BTW, I didn't sepnd 5 mins thinking. Just posting!

Littlehorny

walshb wrote: »

One night only I would have my house on TYSON. Why? Well, when two bangers meet, I bank on the better chin. And, at peak Mike's chin AND stamina were just superior. He had a really good chin. Also, Lewis will be hit. He hadn't the leg speed of Ali, chin of Ali or elusiveness of Ali.

How does Lewis win? One punch is unlikely. Points? Possible, but he will have to be throwing a lot of leather for 12 rds. He was never the busiest or fittest fighter. I see no real way he can win. He engages, and he gets tagged and most likely knocked out. He moves and tries jabbing, little hope of scoring enough. Simliar to TNT Tucker.

Same reason why I back Tyson vs. Joe Louis. Mike's power and chin. Louis will NOT take a clean shot from
Mike Tyson. Louis was 200 lbs. Tyson was 220 lbs.

BTW, I didn't sepnd 5 mins thinking. Just posting!

Not as 100% as you walshb, Lewis only lost twice and both times he underestimated his oponent and was not in peak shape for both, he also avenged both loses. Any heavy can land a big lucky right hand, when Lewis was up for a fight he was very good, thinking of his fights against Tommy Morrison, Shannon Briggs and David Tua, these guys were short stocky fighters who liked to come up with hooks and uppercuts and he made short work of these guys. But Tyson was a class above these guys, might put a few quid on this fight but no way the house!ha ha.

PARKHEAD67

walshb wrote: »

Way faster?

I think it's possible that Tyson at peak could annihilate any man. But, I think it is also safe to say that others could last the pace and beat him. Tyson has been taken the distance when at peak by several men that were not in Ali's league.

Tyson in his prime would have any man on the canvas before said defeated man could say "queensbury rules".He was unstoppable.;)

Hannibal

Littlehorny wrote: »

Not as 100% as you walshb, Lewis only lost twice and both times he underestimated his oponent and was not in peak shape for both, he also avenged both loses. Any heavy can land a big lucky right hand, when Lewis was up for a fight he was very good, thinking of his fights against Tommy Morrison, Shannon Briggs and David Tua, these guys were short stocky fighters who liked to come up with hooks and uppercuts and he made short work of these guys. But Tyson was a class above these guys, might put a few quid on this fight but no way the house!ha ha.

What about Ray Mercer taking Lewis the distance? two judges scored it 96-95 and the other 96-96. Mercer was a smallish fighter around the 6 foot mark, he KO'd Tommy Morrison and was beaten by a 42 year old Larry Holmes a couple of years before he fought Lewis. I also think the two Holyfield fights were a lot closer than the British media think, the first was a draw and the second given to Lewis but for me I thought watching it that Holyfield shaded the second one.

I've seen Tyson and Holyfield been mentioned as past it on here, so Lewis fought bought when they were diminished. If you look at the rest of Lewis' career there's no other greats in there apart from a fortunate win over Vitali to the point Lewis retired rather than give him a rematch.

section4

walshb wrote: »

They weren't boos due to inaction, I can assure you of that.

Either that or it was not Frazier or Foreman in the ring.

i agree, i read one time that frazier had the punch rate of a welterweight , he was one of the busiest fighters ever, a ball of energy

gilmour

I'm a huge Tyson fan and only have a small niggly comment to make on the thread, 1989 is not a year that should be used as a "peak" Tyson year. In the one meaningful fight he fought in that year (Bruno) he already had begun to showcase his downfall, the head movement was gone and the bomb throwing Tyson was born.

The peak Tyson died the night that Kevin Rooney was fired, 27th June 1988 after the Spinks fight.

walshb

gilmour wrote: »

I'm a huge Tyson fan and only have a small niggly comment to make on the thread, 1989 is not a year that should be used as a "peak" Tyson year. In the one meaningful fight he fought in that year (Bruno) he already had begun to showcase his downfall, the head movement was gone and the bomb throwing Tyson was born.

The peak Tyson died the night that Kevin Rooney was fired, 27th June 1988 after the Spinks fight.

I agree, the Bruno fight was the first clear sign that I saw that showed Tyson was sliding. But, still, he slid a whole lot more come February 1990.

StevePH

walshb wrote: »

One night only I would have my house on TYSON. Why? Well, when two bangers meet, I bank on the better chin. And, at peak Mike's chin AND stamina were just superior. He had a really good chin. Also, Lewis will be hit. He hadn't the leg speed of Ali, chin of Ali or elusiveness of Ali.......

Thought this was a great analysis when I read it first - especially the part about Lewis's stamina.

I loved Lewis but thought he could be a bit lazy in that he appeared to cruise through some fights if the heat wasn't brought to him....but when put under pressure (and I don't mean the times he was caught cold ) he reacted fantasticly well. Very much like Calzaghe, who I also thought fought better a better fight when facing better opposition.

But back to ma point...watchin Lewis face Tuas style make me think Lewis would have had the savvy/tools to take a young Tyson.
As I said in a previous post, Tyson didn't fare so well against big men confident in their ability. Early Tyson depended A LOT on the fear factor to support his incoming bursts of ferocity.

drywall

i think tyson fury would knock out both off them at there peak

Littlehorny

StevePH wrote: »

Thought this was a great analysis when I read it first - especially the part about Lewis's stamina.

I loved Lewis but thought he could be a bit lazy in that he appeared to cruise through some fights if the heat wasn't brought to him....but when put under pressure (and I don't mean the times he was caught cold ) he reacted fantasticly well. Very much like Calzaghe, who I also thought fought better a better fight when facing better opposition.

But back to ma point...watchin Lewis face Tuas style make me think Lewis would have had the savvy/tools to take a young Tyson.
As I said in a previous post, Tyson didn't fare so well against big men confident in their ability. Early Tyson depended A LOT on the fear factor to support his incoming bursts of ferocity.

Good point Steve, could not have said it better, Tyson bombed out alot of second rate guys and his menace meant fights were over before they began. As fight fans we all loved that version of Tyson, big hits sending bigger men to the floor. ESPN showed a tribute to Joe Frazier tonight and they showed his first fight with ALI, what surprised me was Ali was 29 at this stage yet still had his biggest victories ahead of him i.e 2 against Frazier and 1 against Foreman. Also Frazier had a head made of pure granite! one tough SOB!:)

Littlehorny

drywall wrote: »

i think tyson fury would knock out both off them at there peak

Were you watching these guys? like watching 2 drunk toddlers in a play pen, this is what the heavyweight division has been reduced to, sweet jesus!!!!:p

ThunderCat

Great thread. enjoying reading all the opinions, and im sorry for deviating slightly, but speaking of Ali and the golden era of heavyweight boxing, I was just wondering why it is that Ali and Frazier had 3 extremely grueling fights yet Foreman beat Frazier easily in 2 rounds and 5 rounds respectively yet Ali beats Foreman in Zaire. Where would you guys rate Foreman on that all time list? Would love to have seen him flight Ali a second time.

And my opinion on Tyson would be that he was a wrecking ball but when he was at his peak it wasnt a golden era of fellow heavyweights he was up against. A hall of famer all the same, no question.

PARKHEAD67

drywall wrote: »

i think tyson fury would knock out both off them at there peak

The tyson fury whos pumped up to his eyeballs on steroids? That lad???

walshb

StevePH wrote: »

But back to ma point...watchin Lewis face Tuas style make me think Lewis would have had the savvy/tools to take a young Tyson.
As I said in a previous post, Tyson didn't fare so well against big men confident in their ability. Early Tyson depended A LOT on the fear factor to support his incoming bursts of ferocity.

Let's be real. Tua was not at all in that fight, both mentally and physically. The man was so lazy, and mostly plodding along. This is so so far away from a 1986 Tyson. I respect Lewis immensely. A man who met all comers, and had the courage to meet two men who destroyed him. But, those two men were not close to the level of a peak Tyson. Mike would be all over Lewis, and the first big shot would probably end it. Lewis' chin is good, not good enough.

Lewis to win must go 12. No way I see him stopping Mike in 12 rs. Mike, who was always prepared, very fit, with that great chin, and a very decent defense. A betting man surely would place his money on the big hitter with the chin against a man who could be hit clean and badly hurt.

Hell, Bruno gave Lewis fits for 7 rds when they met. What is Lewis' peak? I think it's a mix between the slimmer and heavier versions. As in, the man who destroyed Ruddock and the man who say beat Mercer. A few years' spread there.

You say Tyson didnt fare too well against big men who were confident in their ability? Well, who were these, and how did they do? Tucker and Smith were both clearly beaten. Both didn't engage and spent the night defending. One needs to engage to win, and had they they could have done better, or as I said earlier, they could have been open to get whacked. Lewis runs this risk too.

Larry was a big guy, who although past it, was still skilled and slick. He got whacked in 4 rds. Had a few good moments, but
like the others, he was more concerned with defense and survival. This can't win fights. Had Larry enaged even more
and earlier, I say he lasts less time. I also think a peak Larry, who liked to engage, doesn't fare all that better.

StevePH

I suppose usin the words 'didn't fare well' was a bit vague. I was tryin to get across the point that Tyson's usual tactic of appearin/actin the grim reaper incarnate who was 2 seconds away from ending your life, just DIDN'T work with everyone he faced ie the bigger, stylish boxers who could choose to stay in a comfort zone keepin the reaper at bay - a perfectly acceptable tactic employed by lifelong counterpunchers since the sport began.
(Whether or not ye liked a performance like that shown by Bonecrusher/Tucker, it showed that Tyson just couldn't break/devastate whoever he chose to)

The fear he put into full grown men contributed just as much to Tysons KO percentage as the superb footwork and lightning quick, accurate bombs. (I think Bruno was one of the best examples of this - a man beaten more by the fear inside himself than by leather sent his way - have we ever seen bigger whites of the eyes inside a ring?)

Annnnnnnnnnnyway. Back to the OPs question - Mike Tyson, for me, does not appear in the Top Ten heavyweights of all time.
Early Tyson looked magnificent. But it was against guys who weren't always magnificent themselves on the night he fought them. Fact.
Ali came out on top against (many) guys who were magnificent in their own way. Fact.

(Like Tyson, Wlad has also dominated the heavyweight scene for a smiliar length of time - it doesn't serve as a reason to put either one in the Top Ten.)