What does this forum achieve anymore?

neuro-praxis

As a practicing Christian, I find this forum unfailingly depressing. I really mean that.

The regular contributors seem to be obsessed with homosexuality and abortion, and have an unlimited capacity for complaint. There is also a fair amount of delusion floating around. It always seems that threads that offer something of genuine value (for example, the current thread on Advent Conspiracy) garner no interest whatsoever. Journeying towards Christ in a community that are pilgrimaging with you is an intellectual, emotional and spiritual adventure that is never expressed here.

Am I wrong in thinking this forum used to be a platform for healthy and varied debate?

I feel compelled to add that the moderators absolutely do as best a job as anyone could, given the conditions and the forum members, and I have no beef with them. They must have the patience of saints, if you'll pardon the pun.

I hereby propose that the forum be shut down. I feel it is a dreadful witness to the Christian faith and it would be better if it did not exist.

I would genuinely appreciate opposing views on the matter, because goodness knows I need a few good reasons why this place should continue to run.

lmaopml

Well, I've begun to really like some of the contributors to the forum - you get to know peoples 'bugbears' - and after reading for a while you get to know a little more than just their 'bugbears' and a real picture begins to form, a 'person' - I do admire very many of the personalities and their dedication and some thoughtful responses stand out, like any other 'serious' board I suppose.

One really great thing is that it's not a seperatist forum, there are enough of those online, and in real life - in fact, imo it's one of the very few places on the net that have managed a mixed bag of people - Atheists, Catholics, Protestants etc. that learn to get to know each other and even give the thumbs up to eachother at times lol, and get to see things from the other side of the coin. Yes, there are squabbles and the usual banal stuff, but every now and then it's a fabulous forum...

So, I'd be sad and not a little miffed if it was taken away.......

rockmongrel

I would say the main thing it's currently achieving is keeping all these threads out of After Hours and Humanities.

Newsite

neuro-praxis wrote: »

As a practicing Christian, I find this forum unfailingly depressing. I really mean that.

The regular contributors seem to be obsessed with homosexuality and abortion, and have an unlimited capacity for complaint. There is also a fair amount of delusion floating around. It always seems that threads that offer something of genuine value (for example, the current thread on Advent Conspiracy) garner no interest whatsoever. Journeying towards Christ in a community that are pilgrimaging with you is an intellectual, emotional and spiritual adventure that is never expressed here.

Am I wrong in thinking this forum used to be a platform for healthy and varied debate?

I feel compelled to add that the moderators absolutely do as best a job as anyone could, given the conditions and the forum members, and I have no beef with them. They must have the patience of saints, if you'll pardon the pun.

I hereby propose that the forum be shut down. I feel it is a dreadful witness to the Christian faith and it would be better if it did not exist.

I would genuinely appreciate opposing views on the matter, because goodness knows I need a few good reasons why this place should continue to run.

I'm not on here long enough to have really gotten a feel for the forum. So I'm curious as to why you think the above (bolded part)?

Plowman

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strobe

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I would genuinely appreciate opposing views on the matter, because goodness knows I need a few good reasons why this place should continue to run.

Well I know I do make the odd smart-ass comment in here and that but I genuinely feel I have a much more accurate and in depth understanding of Christianity and Christian views on things than I had before I started reading/ posting on this forum. (No laughing down the back!)

So if one of it's aims is to educate people on what Christianity is and allow them to find out how Christians view things then I think it serves that purpose well. Only for people that have a genuine interest of course.

Also, I'd agree with what Lmaopmslmlpsmetc says above. While I only know people on here as usernames and avatars I'm glad I've had the chance to talk to people like herself, Skep, PDN, Philo, Fanny etc who while I may not agree with often (or ever) from a theological standpoint I've often found to be interesting and personable people and wouldn't have had the pleasure if this forum didn't exist.

kelly1

For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with the OP but I don't think it should be shut down. Having said that, I don't think it would be any great loss...

I've only started posting again here in the past few days because I was sick in bed! I gave up posting for the following reasons.

- Threads being hi-jacked by Atheists
- Endless Catholic/Protestant-Evangelical debates/arguments
- Compulsive Scripture quoters
- Young-earth creationists, bigots and excessively pious people giving
Christianity a bad name.
- Big lack of positive threads. Way to many negative threads.
- How people of shaky faith were dealt with. Unhelpful comments from
atheist vultures and others bent of converting people away from the
Catholic faith. Made me sick!

In fact, this forum reminds me of the state of the CC in Ireland. Badly in need of dart from a defibrilator! Can you imagine someone visiting this forum, maybe they're thinking of a possible conversion to Christianity?? They'd turn and run!!

Fanny Cradock

I wonder if you are not looking through rose tinted glasses? For as long as I've posted here the forum has been a sink for some pretty outrageous posts.

It's nice to once in a while to engage in a bit of cut and thrust. But if I'm being honest, I see this forum primarily as a battleground for world-views that are largely incompatible - at least as they are stated in the crude absolute terms that internet anonymity encourages. I'd like to tip my cap to the mods who put up with a load of crap.

Truth be told there are a number of personalities on this forum that I find to be very abrasive (and I don't doubt that the reverse is true for them). I also also don't doubt that at least some of the historic outbursts, insensitivity, bigotry, smug superiority, misunderstanding (wilful or otherwise) and down right nastiness would evaporate with a face to face meeting. I remember somebodies hubby saying as much once

I don't think I feel tied to this forum any longer. It's part of the reason I'm no longer in the mod business. Indeed, I've recently switched my allegiance to the Ship Of Fools.

lmaopml

Fanny, it must be one of the most difficult forums to moderate and still leave room for good discussion without getting drained from some of the negativity, and battles. Hat is off to those who wander into the lions den of moderating it. They say Religion and Politics are not good 'Pub' topics - heck when they're anonymous topics trying to keep it on an even keel must be magnified....but thanks for being a fair one! imo, it was worth it...

Keaton

I think the only real use for a forum like this is for genuine seekers, but they'd be put off by the anti-Catholicism and the other thing is the atheists who come and hijack every thread in order to ridicule.

The other point is there are lots of specifically Catholic and many non-Catholic Christian boards so this wee Irish one cannot compare.

Catholics seem to have to defend everything at all times. It's a right pain in the neck.

yutta

There really should be a separate Catholic forum with thorny issue mega-threads (abortion, homosexuality, etc.)

PDN

To be honest, I don't think this forum achieves much - nor has it in all the time I've known it.

It used to be A&A Mark II, with the majority of threads being a platform for unbelievers to air their gripes with Christianity and pick quarrels. A beefed-up Charter thankfully put a stop to that - but you would be surprised how often an atheist communicates via PM how offended they are that they now only have one A&A Forum instead of two.

At the time when the Charter was revised, the hope of the mods was that it could become a place where Christians of all denominations or of none could discuss things together, but also build some kind of community spirit among themselves. Unfortunately that has not happened. I understand Fanny Cradock's frustration, and why he stepped down as a mod. In fact we both tried to step down at the same time - but Fanny got away first!

There are some good and thoughtful posters, but many of them only post very occasionally. With any community, neuropraxis, the only way to improve it tends to be by getting involved. I wish you and others would post more on here.

We also have a small core of posters who present a pretty dismal idea of Christianity. They are often negative, defensive, intolerant of others and seem obsessed with sexuality - particularly homosexuality and paedophilia. I don't believe they represent the majority of Christians in Ireland (I'm a full-time Christian minister who meets thousands of Christians from all denominations and walks of life - and I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of this kind of person that I've met in the flesh) but they are very vocal. Then we also get a sprinkling of conspiracy theorists.

If I was a non-Christian visiting this Forum I would see very little that would attract me to Christianity.

prinz

lmaopml wrote: »

One really great thing is that it's not a seperatist forum, there are enough of those online, and in real life - .......

yutta wrote: »

There really should be a separate Catholic forum with thorny issue mega-threads (abortion, homosexuality, etc.)

Splitters! :pac:

It's still possible to find interesting stuff on here. You just have to wade through a lot of repetitive circular arguments (guilty myself) to find it. Then again those threads seem often to be the only ones to get a bit lively.

SonOfAdam

I tend to agree with you neuro-praxis - I delve in here only ocassionally and don't contribute very much [I have a limited attention span and lose interest very quickly in ad nauseum arguments, going around and around and over and over the same ground and some posts I find TLDR] but would miss it if it were to shut down. I enjoy reading some contributors a lot and some that no longer post here I miss.

Like Fanny, there are a number of posters (from differing hues) that I find to be very abrasive who have a total lack of compassion for people in general and in the situations they find themselves. I find that quite depressing - I always thought that christians had more to unite than divide them but reading some posters I think so less and less. When I first joined here I thought it was a Christian forum which is a little different from a Christianity one - but I've learned to take the good and filter the bad.

Cookie_Monster

This forum is about as relevant as God is in the modern enlightened world

SonOfAdam

yutta wrote:

There really should be a separate Catholic forum with thorny issue mega-threads (abortion, homosexuality, etc.)

No. But there should be a mega thread for those who wish to drag every second topic back to homosexuality, abortion etc... and, I have to say it's a small minority of mainly (or wholly) RC's who do this. I find it equally depressing that someone's affiliation to their church surpasses their affiliation to Christ.

Doctor DooM

I don't know, I have been reading this forum for a long time and the level of what I would consider extreme posts has really, really increased. Maybe it's just the times we live in. As for the poor witness thing...

Recently I left the Christianity forum on my screen as I was cooking dinner. A friend of mine was taking a quick browse and he was literally jaw dropped by some of the opinions on display. He wouldn't be religious but wouldn't identify as an atheist either, but after reading some of the stuff on display lately he said he never wanted to be associated with the likes again.

As a moderator I have to say I don't know how PDN and Fanny have lasted as long as they did. This place looks like the hardest tightrope to walk on boards right now... It's interesting to hear from him how he feels, and my apologies if I've ever made life more difficult for you.

newmug

I think the problem with this forum is its attempt to mash all the Christian denominations together, as if we'd all get along fine. Why do you think there are different denominations in the first place?

There needs to be a Catholic forum (cos we make up the vast, vast, vast majority of Christianity worldwide) and a non-Catholic forum, for everyone else. I know someone will say "but that isnt fair, we should open a forum for every denomination so, and we cant do that", but the fact is most of the rows are targeted at Catholics from non-Catholics, NOT between differing denominations of non-Catholics. This simple fix would cut out half the arguing that occurs in this forum.

Doctor DooM

newmug wrote: »

I think the problem with this forum is its attempt to mash all the Christian denominations together, as if we'd all get along fine. Why do you think there are different denominations in the first place?

There needs to be a Catholic forum (cos we make up the vast, vast, vast majority of Christianity worldwide) and a non-Catholic forum, for everyone else. I know someone will say "but that isnt fair, we should open a forum for every denomination so, and we cant do that", but the fact is most of the rows are targeted at Catholics from non-Catholics, NOT between differing denominations of non-Catholics. This simple fix would cut out half the arguing that occurs in this forum.

It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference tbh, the way boards works you'd have the same people in the forum debunking the same stuff, because if you stopped a reasonable exchange of opinions it wouldn't be long before admins would have to step in from feedback threads.

prinz

newmug wrote: »

I think the problem with this forum is its attempt to mash all the Christian denominations together, as if we'd all get along fine. Why do you think there are different denominations in the first place?

Because instead of learning from each other and working together to be Christians they each went to their own corner and the differences continued to fester... talk about history repeating itself. Splitting the forum would be a counter productive disaster. The reason I came to the forum in the first place was because I enjoy seeing differing understandings, and interpretations and so on and learning from different traditions.

If ecumenism can't be achieved here what hope is there for the wider world.

Plowman

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Penn

I'd like to see more of the type of thing like what philologos is doing whereby there is more discussion about parts of the Bible, how they can be interpreted, what did Jesus mean when he said this, etc. Being an atheist, I probably wouldn't post, but I'd still find it interesting to read.

But every time I come here there are posts where people make false, uneducated posts about homosexuality, child abuse by priests, same-sex marriage etc, and I generally get drawn into arguments about it. Not because I'm an atheist and they are Christians, but because I just think they are wrong. If you took religion out of the equation, I would still think they were wrong.

Now, I'm trying to stop coming here, or at least stop engaging in these debates, and perhaps it would be better if fewer atheists posted. Not that I think that it's a rule which should be enforced or anything as people should be allowed to post wherever they wish, but I'm starting to wonder what I, or any other atheist, would get out of this forum the way it is now. Religion as a whole interests me, and being how I was raised Catholic, it would always be the one I would focus on more so than Judaism or Islam. But these argumentative debates no longer really interest me. I have my opinion, others have theirs.

Lady Chuckles

It makes me sad to read how this forum is falling apart.

I'm in the searching process. I'm a protestant wanting to become a catholic....
I had great hopes to learn more, to have meaningful conversations about Christianity and get myself to think. I would've loved to exchange ideas and views with others.

I barely dare to post here. I've tried a few times but it has left me with a feeling of hopelessness (and anger) as I've gotten aggressive replies by atheists who are looking for me to defend myself and my belief, or point out that Christianity sucks (that's how it comes across anyway )

I don't care for those extreme views made by the religious people either. The awful comments about homosexuality and abortions, for instance, they make me sad. This isn't what I'm looking for

old hippy

Penn wrote: »

I'd like to see more of the type of thing like what philologos is doing whereby there is more discussion about parts of the Bible, how they can be interpreted, what did Jesus mean when he said this, etc. Being an atheist, I probably wouldn't post, but I'd still find it interesting to read.

But every time I come here there are posts where people make false, uneducated posts about homosexuality, child abuse by priests, same-sex marriage etc, and I generally get drawn into arguments about it. Not because I'm an atheist and they are Christians, but because I just think they are wrong. If you took religion out of the equation, I would still think they were wrong.

Now, I'm trying to stop coming here, or at least stop engaging in these debates, and perhaps it would be better if fewer atheists posted. Not that I think that it's a rule which should be enforced or anything as people should be allowed to post wherever they wish, but I'm starting to wonder what I, or any other atheist, would get out of this forum the way it is now. Religion as a whole interests me, and being how I was raised Catholic, it would always be the one I would focus on more so than Judaism or Islam. But these argumentative debates no longer really interest me. I have my opinion, others have theirs.

Well said. I come to these forums & I know I'm going to get riled by the anti-gay remarks etc - I should ignore it & put it down to ignorance but then I think to myself, I've been on the receiving end of violence from people like this (who would sit smugly in mass the next day) - why should they get away with such offensive comments?

JimiTime

If I may rain on the parade of negativity;) This forum, AND to a lesser extent the A&A forum, have provided me with a hell of a lot. When I first started posting here, I got a dressing down by an atheist (username Son Goku, still remember him) for being smug and self-righteous. He was dead right. That one post alone has made this forum invaluable.

I have learnt a lot both implicitly and explicitly here. I have learnt about perceptions people can have, misconceptions that I have had etc. Then there is the actual theological benefit to having people like PDN and Wolfsbane etc, along with occasional posters like Slav etc. This is also a great place to learn what matters to a lot of non-believers etc. For every 20 numpties posting the usual anti-religion cr@p, theres usually an interesting objection from someone like Wicknight/Zombrex (Not always interesting, sometimes frustrating;):) ) Also, i never heard of creationism before this forum. I actually used to call myself a creationist, because I thought it just meant I believed in creation. I never knew the plight of Christians in China before this site. So its been informative too.

I think that there are two issues. 1. Don't think that this place is something it is not. If you are hoping that this place is a witness for Christ etc, then you will be disappointed. Witnessing for Christ is very hard to do with just words. I class this place as 1) A place to get occasional info (People posting articles etc, or info about the China scenario etc). 2) A theological tempering device. If i have a view and want it challenged etc. Or if I have a view that I think is of benefit to others etc.
So treating it like this, means less frustration. Yes, there are posts and posters I think give bad 'PR' to Christianity, but tbh, its only bad PR to those who are looking for the bad stuff. People with any kind of intellectual honesty etc, will see the difference between the message of Fred Phelps, and the message of Jesus.

Now, on something more specific. I DO think there are a couple of RC posters who are divisive, and IMO, destructive to the forum . I think the forum would be better off without them, as they offer little, and they refuse to acknowledge that they need to approach the other Christians here on their common grounds such as Christ and the bible. These are the things we all share. They cross all denominational divides, and should be the things we appeal to when dealing in a fora like this one. One just needs to look at posters like Plowman, Prinz and LMAOPML to see how this can be achieved. This is not a Christian issue though, its a sectarian one, but again, if you allow it to be, it is educational too. Knowing the mindset of such people can be valuable if you come across such folk in the real world.

And again, on something specific. The big SEX question. While I agree, that it is an obsession for many, it is a pertinent question in our society today, and the issue of sexuality has been at loggerheads with Christianity recently. Think in terms of Christian registrars, and the advent of same sex marriage etc. It raises certain questions etc. So while I agree, that it should certainly not be an obsession, lets not pretend that what is going on in the world is of no consequence to Christians etc. If a Christian feels that some matter, sexual or otherwise, is important enough to raise, then we should not whinge about it. Let other posters decide if any kind of point has been raised. Don't make people afraid that raising a topic like that is taboo. Same with abortion. If they wish to raise the topic, then let them. Let other posters then decide if they wish to contribute to such a thread. Not all threads on sex or abortion are equal, so let them be taken on merit. Mods will lock those that contravene the charter etc, and if others want to contribute on the thread, then who are we to say they shouldn't.

To Conclude, I like this place. Its served a purpose, and is still serving one for me, albeit to a lesser extent these days. All in all though, we should be realistic as to what this place is.

Newsite

Penn wrote: »

I'd like to see more of the type of thing like what philologos is doing whereby there is more discussion about parts of the Bible, how they can be interpreted, what did Jesus mean when he said this, etc. Being an atheist, I probably wouldn't post, but I'd still find it interesting to read.

But every time I come here there are posts where people make false, uneducated posts about homosexuality, child abuse by priests, same-sex marriage etc, and I generally get drawn into arguments about it. Not because I'm an atheist and they are Christians, but because I just think they are wrong. If you took religion out of the equation, I would still think they were wrong.

Now, I'm trying to stop coming here, or at least stop engaging in these debates, and perhaps it would be better if fewer atheists posted. Not that I think that it's a rule which should be enforced or anything as people should be allowed to post wherever they wish, but I'm starting to wonder what I, or any other atheist, would get out of this forum the way it is now. Religion as a whole interests me, and being how I was raised Catholic, it would always be the one I would focus on more so than Judaism or Islam. But these argumentative debates no longer really interest me. I have my opinion, others have theirs.

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

It makes me sad to read how this forum is falling apart.

I'm in the searching process. I'm a protestant wanting to become a catholic....
I had great hopes to learn more, to have meaningful conversations about Christianity and get myself to think. I would've loved to exchange ideas and views with others.

I barely dare to post here. I've tried a few times but it has left me with a feeling of hopelessness (and anger) as I've gotten aggressive replies by atheists who are looking for me to defend myself and my belief, or point out that Christianity sucks (that's how it comes across anyway )

I don't care for those extreme views made by the religious people either. The awful comments about homosexuality and abortions, for instance, they make me sad. This isn't what I'm looking for

old hippy wrote: »

Well said. I come to these forums & I know I'm going to get riled by the anti-gay remarks etc - I should ignore it & put it down to ignorance but then I think to myself, I've been on the receiving end of violence from people like this (who would sit smugly in mass the next day) - why should they get away with such offensive comments?

The thing about it is - if you believe that being gay is A-OK, and that everyone should just get along and be cool with whatever it is you're having yourself, then you should probably be prepared to be offended. Not that the intention is to offend, just to tell the truth.

As doctor doom mentioned above, some of the views made his friend's jaw drop. The reason they may seem so extreme and outrageous is because society has normalised so many things that people these days think are fine and perfectly acceptable things to do, but which are actually offensive to God. Society has changed, but God's Word never changes. That's why you may be shocked.

Lady Chuckles - what are the awful comments? Bear in mind that what you're looking for may not be what you want to hear :-)

Fanny Cradock

Well done to Newsite and Old Hippy for giving a perfect example of the type of exchange that makes this place so unappealing for so many.

Manach

It is an interesting forum. The level of debate at the best is finer than alot of other forums in that it also is not hermatically sealed with levels of differing viewpoints are expressed. Saying that, at the worst there is a muppertary on both sides that would make AH blush.

Newsite

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well done to Newsite and Old Hippy for giving a perfect example of the type of exchange that makes this place so unappealing for so many.

Well it actually demonstrates an interesting point. Let's say someone goes onto the Islam forum and says 'what are you on about with your 'jihad', you guys are nutters, there's nothing wrong with being x,y,z.'

And that same person keeps coming back, doesn't bother to engage with the posters on the forum, doesn't bother educating himself even a tiny bit - and slings insults and offensive language - then goes back from wherever he came from. Doesn't make for a nice atmosphere does it? What's the point of it?

It's not that it even bothers me - just in the context of this thread it needs to be pointed out for the sake of the forum!

Doctor DooM

Newsite wrote: »

The thing about it is - if you believe that being gay is A-OK, and that everyone should just get along and be cool with whatever it is you're having yourself, then you should probably be prepared to be offended. Not that the intention is to offend, just to tell the truth.

As doctor doom mentioned above, some of the views made his friend's jaw drop. The reason they may seem so extreme and outrageous is because society has normalised so many things that people these days think are fine and perfectly acceptable things to do, but which are actually offensive to God. Society has changed, but God's Word never changes. That's why you may be shocked.

Lady Chuckles - what are the awful comments? Bear in mind that what you're looking for may not be what you want to hear :-)

I'm pretty sure I could go find people who claim God's truth means no such thing, however that's basically irrelevant.

I have seen recent words said on this forum about restarting the crusades and gay agendas. Of course this flagrantly over the top talk will rightly provoke challenges. Of course your assertion that gays are a sin against a God some don't believe or some disagree with you on will challenge you. It's how you make the points that count.

Yesterday, I was told I think (or have a soul or something, the person never elaborated when I asked him) on the same level as a dog for pointing out I disliked the way someone said the non religious were all xfactor consuming materialists. I shortly bowed out of that one, because personally I have no desire to become a tireless rebutter. You yourself (I think) made sure to perform that old classic passive aggressive "your going to hell" line. That made me laugh, as it's something I've seen a billion times before but someone else probably wouldn't.


If people behave in this manner, others will move to argue. Similarly, I have seen the odd "other side" person basically jump in and make z grade comments which no doubt will rile up Christian posters.

Perhaps some lavender and a nice holiday is needed all round

Plowman

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