Jobs and their dodgy questions - "Catholic or Protestant?'

UglyBolloxFace

I'm applying for a job at the moment. It's based in the North, and one of the requirements is to answer the following:

Regardless of whether we practice religion, most of us in Northern Ireland are seen as either Catholic or Protestant. We are therefore asking you to indicate your community background by selecting the appropriate decscription below.

*Roman Catholic
*Protestant
or
*Neither

Is it just me or is this a completely pointless question? It leaves the employer open to accusations of discrimination, whether they like to admit it or not.

What do you think of this? And have you come across this before?

In case you're wondering, I chose 'neither'.

MagicMarker

It's not a job in the IRA is it? If so I'd think very carefully before answering.

pickarooney

They most likely have some sort of quota to fill, if not in specific roles, then overall.

FetchTheGin

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's not a job in the IRA is it? If so I'd think very carefully before answering.

Yes because the IRA is exclusive to N.I. :rolleyes:

IvyTheTerrible

AFAIK, it's a monitoring question, to make sure they are not discriminating against one particular group.

When you apply to uni in the north you have a separate form to fill in with those questions on it, it's just for stats and is not held with your application.

MagicMarker

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Yes because the IRA is exclusive to N.I. :rolleyes:

Cool story bro.

stovelid

Don't ask people their religion and end up with too many of either prods/taigs working for you: discrimination there so it is.

Ask people their religion to fill quota and balance recruits: that's discrimination there so it is.

foxyboxer

I fail to see how your religion (or lack thereof) affects your ability to, erm, do the job!



It's like the US visa application. Stupid questions that have to be asked anyway.

"Have you ever been involved in or participated in genocide?"
"Were you afficiliated with the Nazi Party in Germany from 1933-1945?"

Ehhhhhh...let me see....No.

Jimoslimos

I think by law they are required to do this. The data isn't considered for the job and should be removed by HR before it reaches the person reviewing your application.

AFAIK all the data is pooled/collected by government so they can build up a profile of potential bias/discrimination in the wider community.

At least I hope that's the case, but given that its NI who knows.

Pope John 11

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Yes because the IRA is exclusive to N.I. :rolleyes:

You might get relocated to Dundalk in the future if that suits you in any way.

df1985

A recruitement agent told me one time to tick the most obscure options in them questions. she probably has people going in saying im mary murphy, a transexual hindu.

oranbhoy67

Coming from Glasgow i have expierence of this,, if an employer doesnt want you for your religion they wont ask you your religion out right they will intead ask what school you went to, what football team you support, they are the ones you have to watch.

Both my parents are Irish but i have a Scottish surname so i dont think i suffered as bad as some of my fellow Catholics but believe me religous discrimination is still widespread in Glasgow, & seeing that is a watered down version of the north im guessing its still as bad there.

off topic slightly but on the 1st day on my job with Glasgow City Council, at lunchtime there was a tradititon of a new start being took to one of the old timers who had the uncanny knack of being able to tell if we were a hun/prod (protestant) or a tim/tarrier/fenian (catholic) supposdley he never ever got it wrong & he certainly guessed right every time i saw him do it

KeithAFC

Depends what area the job is in. Then put down your answer accordingly.

Kojak

I knew a lad before who was filling out a job application form, and whn it came to the question "SEX?" he wrote "yes please"

eviltimeban

Just answer "neither"? Might be the best option.

Just like in the Simpsons: "Christian, Jew, or... miscellaneous!" :-)

twinytwo

stovelid wrote: »

Don't ask people their religion and end up with too many of either prods/taigs working for you: discrimination there so it is.

Ask people their religion to fill quota and balance recruits: that's discrimination there so it is.

is balancing employees based on religion not discrimination in its own right??

Davidth88

NI is the only part of the UK they ask that question , they have to.

This is actually to ensure that discrimination does not happen because the employers then have to show that they are not biased , because the applications may have to be showm to the authorities .

Now as a previous poster said , before this came in what they did was ask your school , then they may discriminate but nothing could be proved .

Interestingly , if you ask this question anywhere else in the UK you can get into trouble .

I used to work in a company that had branches in NI ,and the rest of the UK, and HR would drum this into us.

LighterGuy

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

In case you're wondering, I chose 'neither'.

Whoa ... that's dodgy.
Knowing all the troubles in the North they really shouldn't ask that question.

I know I mentioned this before on here. But in 2008 I had an interview with the book shop Borders in the Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. 2 things struck out ... 1, long ass interview. it was an hour ffs, its only retail! .. and 2, on the form they asked if you are Straight, Gay or bisexual. But phrased it in a different manner:

(Q), Which of the following you describes you:

- I find I am attracted to men.
- I find I am attracted to women.
- I find I am attracted to both male and female.

I still didnt get the job :pac:

ejmaztec

A guy who decided to start his own SuperValu store years ago (In the Munster area), was asked by a Musgrave man whether he was Catholic or Protestant, the reason being that the Musgrave man couldn't figure out what religion he was by making assumptions about his surname.

seamus

Yep, this question is a legal requirement by all employers in Northern Ireland. It's for monitoring to ensure that there's no discrimination taking place.

The "Neither" answer is new. A couple of years ago (like 2008), it was not possible for someone from NI to choose "Neither". You were either Catholic or Protestant and that's that.

Snakeblood

LighterGuy wrote: »

Whoa ... that's dodgy.
Knowing all the troubles in the North they really shouldn't ask that question.

I know I mentioned this before on here. But in 2008 I had an interview with the book shop Borders in the Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. 2 things struck out ... 1, long ass interview. it was an hour ffs, its only retail! .. and 2, on the form they asked if you are Straight, Gay or bisexual. But phrased it in a different manner:

(Q), Which of the following you describes you:

- I find I am attracted to men.
- I find I am attracted to women.
- I find I am attracted to both male and female.

I still didnt get the job :pac:

You should have circled all three. If they asked, tell them you thought the third one referred to orgies.

ejmaztec

seamus wrote: »

Yep, this question is a legal requirement by all employers in Northern Ireland. It's for monitoring to ensure that there's no discrimination taking place.

The "Neither" answer is new. A couple of years ago (like 2008), it was not possible for someone from NI to choose "Neither". You were either Catholic or Protestant and that's that.

None of the Jedis have got a job?:(

Gingko

Born again Pagan Celt!!!!

gizmo555

ejmaztec wrote: »

None of the Jedis have got a job?:(

They have, but they need to know if they're Protestant Jedis or Catholic Jedis

gurramok

They should really ask if you are a Nationalist, Unionist or Dissenter instead of using religion to figure out your political persuasion.

nice_very

KeithAFC wrote: »

Depends what area the job is in. Then put down your answer accordingly.

...and all of a sudden you expose yourself for the cowardly sell-out that you are.

mcmoustache

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

off topic slightly but on the 1st day on my job with Glasgow City Council, at lunchtime there was a tradititon of a new start being took to one of the old timers who had the uncanny knack of being able to tell if we were a hun/prod (protestant) or a tim/tarrier/fenian (catholic) supposdley he never ever got it wrong & he certainly guessed right every time i saw him do it

Taigs have scruffier hair. That's all he was seeing.

Hobbes

http://www.equalityni.org/sections/default.asp?cms=Your%20Rights_Fair%20employment%20&%20treatment&cmsid=2_56&id=56&secid=2

There are exceptions, but that question sounds like it is not one of them. You should probably ask them what is their stance on the FETO bill.

Hobbes

Davidth88 wrote: »

NI is the only part of the UK they ask that question , they have to.

See link above. They can only ask it in certain circumstances.

Bottle_of_Smoke

seamus wrote: »

Yep, this question is a legal requirement by all employers in Northern Ireland. It's for monitoring to ensure that there's no discrimination taking place.

The "Neither" answer is new. A couple of years ago (like 2008), it was not possible for someone from NI to choose "Neither". You were either Catholic or Protestant and that's that.

Even funnier is you still can't really choose it. If you tick neither they decide which you are based on your school or surname.

"If you do not answer the above question, we are encouraged to use the residuary method of making a determination, which means that we can make a determination as to your community background on the basis of the personal information supplied by you in your application."

Where To

Any time I was ever asked that question I just ticked both, and the hindu/shaman/voodoo etc options if available, no big deal.

MrPudding

As other have pointed out it is required by law.

It does sometimes lead to really silly issues. What they do is look at the catholic / protestant ratio and compare it to the ratio in the area of your business. I used to work in a hotel in the town of Bushmills, which is really really protestant. At the time I identifies as catholic. There were two other catholics in the hotel out of a staff of around 40. My bosses got a letter formt he equality commission informing them that they were biassed in favour of catholics!

MrP

Bottle_of_Smoke

MrPudding wrote: »

As other have pointed out it is required by law.

It does sometimes lead to really silly issues. What they do is look at the catholic / protestant ratio and compare it to the ratio in the area of your business. I used to work in a hotel in the town of Bushmills, which is really really protestant. At the time I identifies as catholic. There were two other catholics in the hotel out of a staff of around 40. My bosses got a letter formt he equality commission informing them that they were biassed in favour of catholics!

MrP

the last census bushmills was 97% Protestant. Catholics were punching above their weight in that hotel!

Zebra3

foxyboxer wrote: »

I fail to see how your religion (or lack thereof) affects your ability to, erm, do the job!

It's like the US visa application. Stupid questions that have to be asked anyway.

"Have you ever been involved in or participated in genocide?"

I wonder do Americans applying for passports have to answer that question?

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote: »

I wonder do Americans applying for passports have to answer that question?

only the army:pac:

Mike 1972

seamus wrote: »

The "Neither" answer is new. A couple of years ago (like 2008), it was not possible for someone from NI to choose "Neither". You were either Catholic or Protestant and that's that.

"Neither" has been an option since long before 2008. As is the option of refusing to answer the question at all (as IMNSHO any sensible person would do)

pickarooney wrote: »

They most likely have some sort of quota to fill, if not in specific roles, then overall.

With the exception of (until recently) the Police they are not supposed to apply quotas/"Positive" discrimination. The form is supposed to be for "monitoring"

Ive come across these forms quite a few times. I usually chuck them in the bin.

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Coming from Glasgow i have expierence of this,, if an employer doesnt want you for your religion they wont ask you your religion out right they will intead ask what school you went to, what football team you support, they are the ones you have to watch.

All of which is highly illegal.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

the last census bushmills was 97% Protestant.

I seriously doubt that.

foxyboxer wrote: »

I fail to see how your religion (or lack thereof) affects your ability to, erm, do the job!

Er Id imagine one has to be a Catholic to be a priest for example ?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Even funnier is you still can't really choose it. If you tick neither they decide which you are based on your school or surname.

"If you do not answer the above question, we are encouraged to use the residuary method of making a determination, which means that we can make a determination as to your community background on the basis of the personal information supplied by you in your application."

What if you went to an integrated school your name is Seamus Williamson* and your hobbies are cricket and hurling ?

* Or Ahmed Cohen

Immaculate Pasta

If you really want to play the game. Just figure out whether it's a Protestant or Catholic town and put your answer in accordingly. Alternatively just convert to Islam, it's entirely up to you :cool:

strobe

Mike 1972 wrote: »

What if you went to an integrated school your name is Seamus Williamson and your hobbies are cricket and hurling ?

Unitarian?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I seriously doubt that.

It was

What if you went to an integrated school your name is Seamus Williamson* and your hobbies are cricket and hurling ?

I don't know what the criac is.
I wonder could you tick both. Many people feel part of both communities seeing as they have mates or relations from either side. I mean what the hell does someone from a mixed marriage choose?

the purple tin

Pratholic.

Mike 1972

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I mean what the hell does someone from a mixed marriage choose?

heres a clue.

Ive a mate at work who supports Celtic and his brother supports Rangers

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It was

Percentage of persons with no religion or religion not stated = 11.06

gurramok

Surnames don't definitely really identify which community you're from. Some may do and some not. Although with a name like Mairéad might identify you more likely to be Catholic.

There was a case on UTV news a few years ago where a Protestant teenager's home was firebombed by local scum of the 'loyalist' variety because her first name was Roisin, apparently she was named after someone famous in the 70's. Her interview on the tv after was really an eyopener where she stated in the company of some dodgy looking people that she's more Protestant and Unionist than the scumbags who attacked her home in that she was a regular churchgoer and 'more loyal'. To sum up, it was a case of mistaken identity based on the assumption of a first name.

As i said earlier, they should drop the questions about religion and base it on nationality as thats what the Troubles were majorly about.

Mike 1972

gurramok wrote: »

As i said earlier, they should drop the questions about religion and base it on nationality as thats what the Troubles were majorly about.

Nationality and national identity dont always coincide either.

Besides why ask the question at all ?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Even funnier is you still can't really choose it. If you tick neither they decide which you are based on your school or surname.

"If you do not answer the above question, we are encouraged to use the residuary method of making a determination, which means that we can make a determination as to your community background on the basis of the personal information supplied by you in your application."

Yep. Unbelievable. It seems insane to me that in the EU, in 2011, employers are allowed to bully you into claiming a 'community'.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

What if you went to an integrated school your name is Seamus Williamson* and your hobbies are cricket and hurling ?

* Or Ahmed Cohen

I'm in that situation. I genuinely am neither Catholic or Protestant. My parents are mixed, I have an Irish name but went to a Protestant school. I think it counts against me, tbh. Too much trouble for them to decide 'what I am'. God, how I hate the North.

OneArt

I'd be so tempted to write down Neoclassical Snake Worshipper or something like that. And draw a little picture of the Holy Snake.

oranbhoy67

mcmoustache wrote: »

Taigs have scruffier hair. That's all he was seeing.

what does taig mean? i mean i know the expression but what does it actuallly mean? & do you really have a moustache, & why do most of the population that are loyallist in the north have a moustache, especially the women??

Mike 1972

Kyra Sharp Bullfighter wrote: »

Yep. Unbelievable. It seems insane to me that in the EU, in 2011, employers are allowed to bully you into claiming a 'community'.

Not exactly.

You can tick neither or refuse to answer. They can use their residuary bullshyte (they are generally not compelled to) but they have to inform you in writing if they do and you have the right to inform them in writing if their determination is incorrect and they have to keep it on record (Its never got to that stage with me but if/when it ever does I will be informing them in pretty strong terms.)

Around 10% of the workforce in my current workplace are "undetermined/other" I am one of them.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Mike 1972 wrote: »

heres a clue.

Percentage of persons with no religion or religion not stated = 11.06

http://www.ninis.nisra.gov.uk/mapxtreme_towns/report.asp?settlementName=Bushmills&BandName=Village

19.9% were aged under 16 years;
22.1% were aged 60 and over;
the average age was 39.3 years (NI average age 35.8 years);
49.2% of the population were male and 50.8% were female;
2.2% were from a Catholic Community Background;
97.0% were from a 'Protestant and Other Christian (including Christian related)' Community Background;
6.6% were born outside Northern Ireland; and
0.2% were from an ethnic group other than white.

Mike 1972

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Not exactly.

You can tick neither or refuse to answer. They can use their residuary bullshyte (they are generally not compelled to) but they have to inform you in writing if they do and you have the right to inform them in writing if their determination is incorrect and they have to keep it on record (Its never got to that stage with me but if/when it ever does I will be informing them in pretty strong terms.)

Around 10% of the workforce in my current workplace are "undetermined/other" I am one of them.

So they say. What's to say they just don't bin your application for being too much hassle? Any time I've refused to claim Catholic or Protestant in NI, I've been made to feel like I'm being purposely awkward. A lot of people don't seem to believe you aren't part of one community or another.

gurramok

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Nationality and national identity dont always coincide either.

Besides why ask the question at all ?

They needed something easy to help stop discrimination against members of both communities, religion was the easiest way.

If not nationality, try national identity? They're going to have to replace it eventually as religion is a dying breed for both sides.

Mike 1972

gurramok wrote: »

They needed something easy to help stop discrimination against members of both communities,

And what of the rest of us

Kyra Sharp Bullfighter wrote: »

So they say. What's to say they just don't bin your application for being too much hassle?

You application and your monitoring form are supposed to be handled separately.

Any time I've refused to claim Catholic or Protestant in NI, I've been made to feel like I'm being purposely awkward. A lot of people don't seem to believe you aren't part of one community or another.

In my experience it is very rare to be asked such a question within NI (other than in the form of irrelevant questions on forms) --people just make assumptions (or at least I assume they do :pac: ) based on where you live/where youre from/accent/hobbies/who you hang out with/etc

On the other hand If one says theyre from NI while on holidays they get asked all they time. And the correct answer ("No") gives rise to much puzzlement.