Which Taoiseach damaged Ireland the most?

Slideshowbob

W. T. Cosgrave Éamon de Valera John A. Costello Seán Lemass Jack Lynch Liam Cosgrave Charles Haughey
Garret FitzGerald Albert Reynolds John Bruton Bertie Ahern Brian Cowen Enda Kenny
Can a mod establish a poll here? Thanks!!

irishh_bob

bertie ahern by a mile , the man had one priority , to harvest votes and was prepared to use the nations stocks to do so , a man with no idealogy who stood for nothing

pconn062

This is a bit of a lame duck, everyone is going to jump on Bertie (with good reason) because its so fresh in the mind!

jam_mac_jam

Dev or Bertie. In the long run it was probubly Dev although its hard to say at this stage as we dont know how long the current problem will last.

cml387

DeValera wreaked a lot of havoc in the 1930's with his pointless,populist reneging on land annuities causing the economic war with Britain.
That would probably come close to Bertie.
But to hand over power of the economy to foreigners, well, yes.It's Bertie.

the groutch

Bertie of the Taoiseachs, but Charlie McCreevy did even more damage than him.

Sponge Bob

Haughey borrowed 20% of GDP in around 1 year flat once and that not to deal with exceptional issues. Inflation was 20% that year ( 1980-1981)

Devalera presided over a 20% GDP fall in 2 years , entirely self inflicted during a massive depression.

I would say Haughey Ahern Devalera ...no other Taoiseach inflicted damage on anywhere near their scale.

Max Power1

Dev.

His constitution was so regressive, backward and biased towards religion, it cast the countrys mindset into the dark ages for decades, and we are still dealing with the fallout to this day.

murphaph

the groutch wrote: »

Bertie of the Taoiseachs, but Charlie McCreevy did even more damage than him.

Nonsense. Watch RTE 1 now to see why McCreevy was "packed off" to Europe-he was far too fiscally conservative for giveaway Ahern.

Prop Joe

i think Bertie was OK,I would take him back in the morning

Hootanany

Prop Joe wrote: »

i think Bertie was OK,I would take him back in the morning

:eek:

irishh_bob

the groutch wrote: »

Bertie of the Taoiseachs, but Charlie McCreevy did even more damage than him.

how can you say this ?

irishh_bob

Max Power1 wrote: »

Dev.

His constitution was so regressive, backward and biased towards religion, it cast the countrys mindset into the dark ages for decades, and we are still dealing with the fallout to this day.

how secular , liberal and progrssive do you think most countries were in the 1930,s ? , dev cow towed to the church but fine gael were no better in this regard back in the day

D500B

I always felt that Jack lynch acted very low in that he was willing to let some total innocent (and not so innocent but for other reasons) people go to jail just to save he own political career.

It probably didn't damage the country in general too much in the long term though.

irishh_bob

murphaph wrote: »

Nonsense. Watch RTE 1 now to see why McCreevy was "packed off" to Europe-he was far too fiscally conservative for giveaway Ahern.

bar the bertiesque and ubber populist special savings scheme introduced in 2001

irishh_bob

D500B wrote: »

I always felt that Jack lynch acted very low in that he was willing to let some total innocent (and not so innocent but for other reasons) people go to jail just to save he own political career.

It probably didn't damage the country in general too much in the long term though.

he was too sheepish in dealing with the likes of heath in downing street aswell

washman3

Prop Joe wrote: »

i think Bertie was OK,I would take him back in the morning

were you a member of the golden circle too??
one of the very rich people he made even richer.?? :mad:

doc_17

Cowen for two reasons.

1 - The Bank Guarantee

2 - Poor leader. Worried as much about the party as the country

ardmacha

Charlie Haughey, without doubt. A profoundly unprincipled individual who lowered the conduct of Irish politics and cleared the way for the later debacles.

Prop Joe

washman3 wrote: »

were you a member of the golden circle too??
one of the very rich people he made even richer.?? :mad:

Well in fairness we were never as well off when Bertie was in charge..Everyone was doing well and when he left it all went arse ways.we could of really done with a cute rouge like him to negotiate with the IMF.

mike65

Easier to inquire which did the lest damage to be honest.

murphaph

irishh_bob wrote: »

bar the bertiesque and ubber populist special savings scheme introduced in 2001

It was however introduced in an attempt to curtail inflation (it was a stupid way of doing it). Anyway, I'm not a McCreevy fanboy or anything but he would have done a lot less damage than Ahern.

I think people still underestimate just how much damage Ahern has done to Ireland.

irishh_bob

murphaph wrote: »

It was however introduced in an attempt to curtail inflation (it was a stupid way of doing it). Anyway, I'm not a McCreevy fanboy or anything but he would have done a lot less damage than Ahern.

I think people still underestimate just how much damage Ahern has done to Ireland.

agreed and alligning mcreevy with aherne is moronic , they were two men with completley different outlooks and idealogys , mc reevy was a social liberal and fiscal conservative , bertie was a populist and thats where it ended

Alibaba

doc_17 wrote: »

Cowen for two reasons.

1 - The Bank Guarantee

2 - Poor leader. Worried as much about the party as the country

1- The Bank Guarantee

2- IMO Poor leader . Worried more about the party than the country

Slideshowbob

ardmacha wrote: »

Charlie Haughey, without doubt. A profoundly unprincipled individual who lowered the conduct of Irish politics and cleared the way for the later debacles.

On reflection I think he did very little damage compared to Ahern and Cowen.

They were their own men, able to think for themselves, knew CJH's wrongs, and still made major boo boos

irishh_bob

Slideshowbob wrote: »

On reflection I think he did very little damage compared to Ahern and Cowen.

They were their own men, able to think for themselves, knew CJH's wrongs, and still made major boo boos

+1 , haughey was immoral but he didnt wreck the joint , in fact the man had quite a few ideas and plenty of vision

Dannyboy83

It's unquestionably Dev.

Sure, Bertie has caused a hell of a lot of damage - and arguably some good too.
Despite the mess he has caused, he - for the first time - gave Irish people a taste of affluence, entrepreneurial self confidence (short lived) and a reason to be proud of being Irish (even if it was just a mirage). Some Irish even became snobs - especially toward immigrants - a fairly remarkable feat considering the signs only a generation ago were 'no dogs and no irish', and even more remarkable considering Irish people are now immigrants again, in the usual places such as the UK, OZ etc.


Dev tho - Dev was a whole different level.
Dev went way beyond economics, altho he caused sh1tloads of economic damage too - a million irish pounds per day during the civil war, economic retardation from the 30s to the 50, blocking the progression of people who tried to sort out the mess, such as Lemass, while he held onto "the levers of power" for as long as possible etc.

Dev burrowed much deeper than anyone else tho.
He infected the very DNA of Irish people.
He sowed very stupid notions about what Irishness is, tried to rewrite history, tried to supplant culture & language, and above all, promoted a poisonous brand of nationalism and religion.

nesf

Dev. He set up a system that gave total power to the Executive without any overview and laid the foundations of the mess that Ahern and Co. made in the last decade.


That and I'd defend McCreevy to be honest. He actually tightened the purse strings when it was a good idea but got removed from office by Ahern because it wasn't politically the easiest option.

celticcrash

the groutch wrote: »

Bertie of the Taoiseachs, but Charlie McCreevy did even more damage than him.

Charlie wanted to stay on as finance minister but was pushed by Bertie
for commisior for europe

andrew

Dev; protectionism in the 30's set the country back decades.

nesf

doc_17 wrote: »

Cowen for two reasons.

1 - The Bank Guarantee

2 - Poor leader. Worried as much about the party as the country

When I think about this I have trouble truly blaming Cowen. He was just seriously out of his depth with none of the training needed to appreciate the problem. It's like blaming a toddler for hiding a sandwich behind the radiator. Yeah they've done something wrong but they really don't grasp the situation.

I agree that he was a poor leader, and an even poorer Finance Minister, but both of these fall mostly at Ahern's feet rather than Cowen's.


I think that Cowen would have done fine in some less important roles but Ahern rose him up to second-in-command because he wanted someone malleable and not too independent. It was Ahern's want for no rocking of the boat that landed us in this mess. Blaming Cowen misses the point really.

[Jackass]

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Haughey borrowed 20% of GDP in around 1 year flat once and that not to deal with exceptional issues. Inflation was 20% that year ( 1980-1981)

Devalera presided over a 20% GDP fall in 2 years , entirely self inflicted during a massive depression.

I would say Haughey Ahern Devalera ...no other Taoiseach inflicted damage on anywhere near their scale.

IMO, the 3 worst Irish men who ever lived.

Corrupt, disgusting, greedy, selfish humans, who in their own unique style, used this country, it's people, and ruined it to varying extents.

southsiderosie

irishh_bob wrote: »

how secular , liberal and progrssive do you think most countries were in the 1930,s ? , dev cow towed to the church but fine gael were no better in this regard back in the day

Well most European countries were moving towards a more liberal progressivism in the 1930s, particularly those with a large urban industrial workforce. The tension between liberal progressives and religious conservatives drove a lot of the domestic conflict across Europe in the 1930s; certainly Spain is a key example. However Ireland lost its industrial workforce with partition, and Labour was never an electoral force to be reckoned with in the Free State/Republic.

Sectarianism and nationalism ruined any chance of Ireland developing a social democratic (or even Christian Democratic) left in the 1930s, putting it out of step with most of its neighbors.

doc_17

nesf wrote: »

doc_17 wrote: »

Cowen for two reasons.

1 - The Bank Guarantee

2 - Poor leader. Worried as much about the party as the country

When I think about this I have trouble truly blaming Cowen. He was just seriously out of his depth with none of the training needed to appreciate the problem. It's like blaming a toddler for hiding a sandwich behind the radiator. Yeah they've done something wrong but they really don't grasp the situation.

I agree that he was a poor leader, and an even poorer Finance Minister, but both of these fall mostly at Ahern's feet rather than Cowen's.


I think that Cowen would have done fine in some less important roles but Ahern rose him up to second-in-command because he wanted someone malleable and not too independent. It was Ahern's want for no rocking of the boat that landed us in this mess. Blaming Cowen misses the point really.

Yeah I agree with all of the above....but those are also reasons why he was disastrous in his roles. Weak, our of his depth and utterly usleless

Crazy Horse 6

Enda Kenny is doing his upmost to ruin whatever is left after the FF disaster.

Dirk Gently

This is a no contest. Dev made sure we remained an authoritarian conservative religious backwater well into our independence. He created a secretive, authoritarian, abusive economic basket case run by the church and sold it through romantic nationalism. It was his direction which shaped our country right up to recent times. There are others in the list who damaged us to various lessening degrees, notably Ahern but none stand out more than Dev.

antoobrien

Gareth Fitzgerald for bailing out AIB in the 80s. Cost to the taxpayer, well we're still paying out on premiums from that debacle.

Oh yeah and that let Charlie back in, setting us up for almost 20 years of FF.

Max Power1

irishh_bob wrote: »

how secular , liberal and progrssive do you think most countries were in the 1930,s ? , dev cow towed to the church but fine gael were no better in this regard back in the day

The prior existing constitution (1922 afaik) was generally regarded as more liberal.

Max Power1

andrew wrote: »

Dev; protectionism in the 30's set the country back decades.

This too.

I think that if Bertie/Cowen (and to a lesser extent Haughey) were not far more recent than Dev, that there would be a clear winner of this poll (Dev). The Irish nation (and the populus in general) is a nation of short term memory.

bamboozle

Bertie, ably assisted by Michael Neary.

Bertie's tenure has seen 200k extra unemployed, 200k extra emigrated, govt expenditure in 1996 was €19 billion, by 2008 it was €56 billion and billions of bank debt loaded onto those of us left...beat that Dev!

irishh_bob

southsiderosie wrote: »

irishh_bob wrote: »

how secular , liberal and progrssive do you think most countries were in the 1930,s ? , dev cow towed to the church but fine gael were no better in this regard back in the day

Well most European countries were moving towards a more liberal progressivism in the 1930s, particularly those with a large urban industrial workforce. The tension between liberal progressives and religious conservatives drove a lot of the domestic conflict across Europe in the 1930s; certainly Spain is a key example. However Ireland lost its industrial workforce with partition, and Labour was never an electoral force to be reckoned with in the Free State/Republic.

Sectarianism and nationalism ruined any chance of Ireland developing a social democratic (or even Christian Democratic) left in the 1930s, putting it out of step with most of its neighbors.

1. Ireland was a poor country and had a completely different recent history than sweeden Denmark Uk etc

2. As for the sectarianism, that was a reaction to something we didn't start

murphaph

Dev's fcuk ups were far reaching but I have a hunch that Ahern's damage is like an iceberg that we've only seen the tip of so far.

I predict it will have just as far reaching effects as Dev's. Ireland is the most endebted nation in the WORLD per capita now as a direct legacy of Bertie Ahern's fuel on the fire policies.

I think Dev let the ship run aground from where it slowly leaked oil for decades, while Ahern ploughed it like a speed boat onto the rocks where it exploded in a ball of flames.

Balmed Out

Haughey,
I think most before him whether good or bad tried to do the job.

He set up a culture of corruption. Bertie in a sense was merely standing on the shoulders of giants.

Fighting Irish

Definitely Bertie Ahern, i voted him in twice and he made me get a huge mortgage, spend all my money on stupid sh1t and max out my credit cards on holidays and electronics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

southsiderosie

irishh_bob wrote: »

1. Ireland was a poor country and had a completely different recent history than sweeden Denmark Uk etc

2. As for the sectarianism, that was a reaction to something we didn't start

Who said anything about Sweden? I specifically mentioned Southern European countries; Ireland has far more in common with these countries, both politically and culturally, than its other small Northern European counterparts.

You also conveniently left out my point about nationalism which, in the Irish case, was a particularly inward-looking variant. This certainly did not help its economic or political development, especially since political leaders knew they had mass emigration as a 'safety valve'.

hatrickpatrick

I wasn't alivei n his time but I'd almost say that Haughey has the edge over Bertie. This is based heavily on my family's opinion of him, but from what they say of him he was pretty much a known, flagrant fraudster whose corruption, croneyism and self serving mentality were displayed without even an attempt to hide or disguise them.

Is that a little harsh? I've often heard that he was in charge during the absolute worst years of FF corruption when it seemed like pretty much everyone in his circle had something to hide.

Prop Joe

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Definitely Bertie Ahern, i voted him in twice and he made me get a huge mortgage, spend all my money on stupid sh1t and max out my credit cards on holidays and electronics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

Very true....Bertie was just a scapegoat for our reckless spending..Bring Bertie Back!!

eire4

I would go with DeValera. His constitution was socially so repressive. He allowed the Catholic church way to much power and influence which it badly abused. Not to mention his fantasy land economic notions which ensured we continued to have large scale emigration and poverty for so many.

anymore

I am sure that Bertie ahern hasnt finished yet, so it is probably too early to answer the question.

anymore

eire4 wrote: »

I would go with DeValera. His constitution was socially so repressive. He allowed the Catholic church way to much power and influence which it badly abused. Not to mention his fantasy land economic notions which ensured we continued to have large scale emigration and poverty for so many.

Lets not forget much of the UK's social policies were repressive as well until the end of the fifties, books were also banned in britain and sex before marriage was frowned on officially for much of the firat half of the century. Divorced people were even banned from the Royal Enclosure at Ascot and Princess Marget was not allowed to maary a divorced man.

ILikeBananas

Slideshowbob wrote: »

W. T. Cosgrave Éamon de Valera John A. Costello Seán Lemass Jack Lynch Liam Cosgrave Charles Haughey
Garret FitzGerald Albert Reynolds John Bruton Bertie Ahern Brian Cowen Enda Kenny
Can a mod establish a poll here? Thanks!!

Fascinating. So far I think one person has picked each of Fitzgerald, Cowen, Kenny and Lynch but all of the other picks have been for the three bolded above. It really doesn't say very much for Fianna Fail given that all three of those men were from that party and they each dominated Irish politics for years in their own generation. More evidence if any were needed that FF needs to be wound up for the good of the country!