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Nogi submission wrestling comp 4th dec
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07-11-2011 4:56pm#1
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wow what a long day! Must say that the gym looked great, nice and clean, well laid out and very professional.
The day itself was good, it was good watching the intermediate and advanced level and really enjoyed watching chris from Darraghs gym, hes a sure talent to watch out for. Same goes for the young ginger boy who got knocked out by the big guy! That should never of happened.....but thats what happens when you enter an absolute.
Definitely an awesome day , that young kid was a certifiable badass with his flying triangles and the like, all in all great day
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Hi guys,
First of all I want to point out that I don't have any experience organizing or running any form of competition except for a few mini world cups at big break in secondary school. But I have some 'complaints' about yesterdays tournament from a competitors point of view...
I realise this was not a jiu jitsu tournament so I wasnt expecting jiu jitsu rules. The rules that were enforced however, made little sense and were poorly maintained in the majority of matches. There was little consistency between the two matted areas in terms of rulings.
Some of the rules I can remember;
1. No pulling guard, which turned out to mean no open guard at all, so if i open your closed guard and stand up, i can ask you to stand up too.
2. Reaping the knee was allowed at all levels, beginner to advanced.
3. Toe holds and kneebars- allowed at all levels.:eek:
4. No flying submissions (this rule was only enforced on one mat)
5. In the event of a draw, the winner was decided by first takedown, We were told judo rules would be used to decide who scored a takedown but this was rarely enforced - One of my teammates lost a decision as his opponent failed a scissor takedown. His opponent flopped to his back and my teammate dropped to his knees almost into his opponents closed guard. This was deemed as a takedown which knocked my teammate out of the absolute division
There was also numerous occasions where takedowns were scored way out of the area and up against a cage wall in some cases ( we had been told they would only count inside the area)
As there were no points awarded and the matches were only 5 minutes long (and the clock wasnt stopped when the ref was resetting a position) a lot of the matches were decided by first takedown, unfair in a lot of cases, especially to beginners who have not developed much of a stand up game.
Submission only is great in theory but not necissarily when the matches are so short, I could positionally dominate my opponent for 5 minutes only to lose by a takedown which in IBJJF rules, only counts for 2 points.
90% of the people at the competition, spectators and staff included were walking on the mats with their shoes on, not only is this in my opinion very disrespectful to the competitors and the owner of the gym - but also extremely unhygienic.
This is just my 2 cents, these are the reasons I wont be competing at this tournament again. Having said that, I want to congratulate everyone who competed, hopefully I will see some of you guys on the mat under different circumstances.
This is not a personal attack on Jason or anyone involved at all, I just want to highlight the issues I had as a 'paying customer'.
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Hey Chris, we spoke about this in person but for anyone else who was at the tournament just to clarify -
(for those who don't know I was the ref with the awesome panda hat)
Jason and John asked me to referee when I arrived and informed me of the rules yesterday morning. I did say that I disagreed over the rules - particularly allowing toe holds in beginner divisions (Jason said he took my point that it's a dangerous technique but felt it would be unfair to change the rules at the last minute)
I also argued that flying submissions are really not that dangerous, as flying armbars are usually not actually finished in midair but once the competitors land; so no more dangerous than a normal armbar from guard applied quickly.
To clarify your point about the difference between the two mats here, in one of the very early matches on my mat a competitor was flying armbarred and tapped. I then asked John if he wanted me to disqualify the competitor who performed the armbar and he said no - therefore I continued to allow flying submissions all day. I appreciate that it's not at all fair to have different rules depending on which mat you're fighting on but as we were operating under Jason and John's rules, I asked John to clarify and just went with his decision.
Takedowns. I knew this would be a tricky one so I conferred with colin, jason and john as to how we would decide what a 'successful takedown' counted as and we chose the 'judo' style rule of whoever's back hits the mat first loses.
I'm not really sure what happened with the takedowns you saw, I did see a few odd seeming decisions. I don't want to speak for Colin and I definitely don't want to have a go at him, refereeing is a difficult job at the best of times and I'm sure if he did make any mistakes they were made with honest intent. Having said that, I'm not sure why there would be any confusion as we did specifically go over a few scenarios in the rules meeting to explain the takedown rule.
As for reaping the knee I actually thought that was a good thing as I think it's a silly rule Darragh said he felt it shouldn't be allowed for beginners at least which I think is reasonable.
Pulling guard - again, I don't want to be mean to Colin (he's far too nice for one thing) so this is not a personal attack. I was however confused as to why Colin was disallowing pulling guard. Jason told me that they did not want to see 'butt scooting' - he said he wanted people stood up if this happened. I asked for clarification and he meant someone chasing their opponent around in the butt scoot position.
If I remember correctly (I may be wrong, it was a long day and i hadn't had much sleep) i did mention in the rules meeting that sitting to guard was fine if your opponent accepted it and engaged but we would allow him to have you stood up once or twice. At that point we would warn for stalling. It was my understanding that there would only be an issue if you sat down and your opponent backed off and wanted you stood up. This actually never came up on my mat as every time someone pulled guard it was either into a closed guard from which they attacked, or their opponent continued to engage. I'm really not sure why Colin was not letting people pull guard, that's for him to answer.
All that being said. It was my understanding that Jason and John's intent was to have a grappling tournament focused towards people training for MMA. Hence the rules about butt scooting, allowing leglocks etc. I can see where they're coming from regarding this. However I do feel it would have been a lot better to be clear about the rules. I would imagine that the unusual nature of the rules (to those of us from a BJJ background) contributed to 90% of the problems.
I would like to say thanks to Jason and John for putting on the comp, it's a very difficult job and fair play for putting yourselves out there. I hope all criticism is taken as constructive, I'm certainly not having a go at anyone just trying to explain a bit why there were some inconsistencies.0 -
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Hi guys,
First of all I want to point out that I don't have any experience organizing or running any form of competition except for a few mini world cups at big break in secondary school. But I have some 'complaints' about yesterdays tournament from a competitors point of view...
I realise this was not a jiu jitsu tournament so I wasnt expecting jiu jitsu rules. The rules that were enforced however, made little sense and were poorly maintained in the majority of matches. There was little consistency between the two matted areas in terms of rulings.
Some of the rules I can remember;
1. No pulling guard, which turned out to mean no open guard at all, so if i open your closed guard and stand up, i can ask you to stand up too.
2. Reaping the knee was allowed at all levels, beginner to advanced.
3. Toe holds and kneebars- allowed at all levels.:eek:
4. No flying submissions (this rule was only enforced on one mat)
5. In the event of a draw, the winner was decided by first takedown, We were told judo rules would be used to decide who scored a takedown but this was rarely enforced - One of my teammates lost a decision as his opponent failed a scissor takedown. His opponent flopped to his back and my teammate dropped to his knees almost into his opponents closed guard. This was deemed as a takedown which knocked my teammate out of the absolute division
There was also numerous occasions where takedowns were scored way out of the area and up against a cage wall in some cases ( we had been told they would only count inside the area)
As there were no points awarded and the matches were only 5 minutes long (and the clock wasnt stopped when the ref was resetting a position) a lot of the matches were decided by first takedown, unfair in a lot of cases, especially to beginners who have not developed much of a stand up game.
Submission only is great in theory but not necissarily when the matches are so short, I could positionally dominate my opponent for 5 minutes only to lose by a takedown which in IBJJF rules, only counts for 2 points.
90% of the people at the competition, spectators and staff included were walking on the mats with their shoes on, not only is this in my opinion very disrespectful to the competitors and the owner of the gym - but also extremely unhygienic.
This is just my 2 cents, these are the reasons I wont be competing at this tournament again. Having said that, I want to congratulate everyone who competed, hopefully I will see some of you guys on the mat under different circumstances.
This is not a personal attack on Jason or anyone involved at all, I just want to highlight the issues I had as a 'paying customer'.
+1 for everything Chris says I have to agree with. Some of the rules IMO were crazy, and largely there was no consistency between the two mats. Some people won by flying arm bar others got a warning and stood back up
Some of the takedowns in overtime were insane, with a choke slam thrown in for good measure:eek:. Some people won when there shoulders hit the mat while others lost when the same thing happened
IMO all tournaments in future should aim to use the prepay method, it makes the day so much smoother and faster and helps the organisers be so much more prepared.
I don't want to be too negative but just wanted to voice some of the complaints that I think a lot of people encountered. Fair play for putting the comp on the North needs a lot more of them and I hope some of the criticisms aired can help to make the next one a much better success:) So fair play to the organisers, the refs and those who competed and with clearer rules and a bit better organisation, I think you guys could be on to a good thing.
PS I hope the girl that got hurt was ok, any news?0 -
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Irish bjjf would be well in its right to help organise this if it was a BJJ] tournament but its kinda not, its as the name suggest is a submission wrestling tournament which if you look at this doesn't just apply to BJJ. As Jason rightly pointed out, its only the second time Evolve have went to the trouble of organising one of these events and all the nice negative folk here could next time maybe give a hand.
Well done to the competitors on the day and a big thanks to team who made it possible on the day
PS Mark was telling Ciaran I was contemplating stealing your hat. Next time
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Irish bjjf would be well in its right to help organise this if it was a BJJ] tournament but its kinda not, its as the name suggest is a submission wrestling tournament which if you look at this doesn't just apply to BJJ. As Jason rightly pointed out, its only the second time Evolve have went to the trouble of organising one of these events and all the nice negative folk here could next time maybe give a hand.
Well done to the competitors on the day and a big thanks to team who made it possible on the day
PS Mark was telling Ciaran I was contemplating stealing your hat. Next time
I'm not saying they help organise it.
The munster open was held this year for the second time.
If anyone asks for help they generally get it.0 -
You can't just sit down and expect the guy to pass your guard. If you do he has no obligation to engage you, he can just ask you to be stood up and you get a penalty. You must have a point of contact on him before pulling guard ie. a sleeve/collar or in no gi an overhook, armdrag etc. etc. Then once a guard is established, the opponent MUST engage and try to pass it. he can't ask for you to be stood up. It's grappling after all, he'd just be asking you to not grapple anymore.lawrencesummers wrote: »What rules cover it?
In fairness, they're not untried. Variations on the theme have been running for years.I don't get why people want to run competitions by their own untried rules,
To be clear, there are 2 qualified FILA referees in Ireland and zero ADCC qualified refs.There are sets of rules like the ibjjf, fila, adcc that can be used, and more importantly qualified experienced referees that can be used. Just because an organiser doesn't agree with some of them why not adapt them and make it clear in advance.
So you mean... uh... establish some sort of untried rules?In this case award more points for a takedown?
I agree and I like both points AND sub only. But for me, sub only is only kind of good as a one off kind of thing, and you have to incentivise it. The old NSC rules were 3 points for submitting a guy, 1 point each of it's a draw. They were run on a round robin basis so you were incentivised to look for a finish. For me, in a straight elimination, there is nothing to stop a guy stalling for 5mins and then relying on a good wrestling game.There seems to be an opinion that no points encourages submission, I don't agree, people are always looking to finish regardless of the rules but in nogi it's more difficult, and its easy to dominate someone in all aspects of the fight only to loose on a scrappy takedown.
That's really unfair, a really pithy comment to make. If a guy makes a million quid on a tournament I wouldn't care as long as he makes it good value for the competitors and puts on a good day. In any case the tournament only cost £10!!!!! They were hardly picking your pocket.As far as I see money is the motivation behind not using these rules, in a short sighted way.
It was only Evolve's second go a tournament. I've done something like 10 now and I still make the occasional organisational boo boo and I'm sure there are people cribbing about one of mine somewhere. You learn on your feet to some extent and I'm sure the next one will be better. More well run competitions from good organisers like Jason and John are needed, regardless of what rules are used.
However, love or hate IBJJF rules, at least they're standardised. You know what you're getting every time you walk onto the mat, you can prepare for them well in advance, and you're not going to walk in that morning and discover your favourite technique is banned, or that say leglocks are allowed since last week.
I love ADCC rules for nogi, but they're not for the inexperienced and to properly establish them we'd need a lot more experienced refs. The novice categories also... surprise surprise... ban heel hooks, crushers cutters etc.
Reaping is dangerous for novices I agree, but I think the current BJJ rule as it stands closes off a whole range of good (and just as safe as what's currently allowed) leglocks. Personally I've a good bit of experience in competition and on the mat and I won't let a strong novice anywhere near my feet or knees in training. They touch them, I tap.
In any case I wanted to go to this but real life got in the way. I would like to go to the next one if the rules were sorted out as I'm sure they will be since the internet has spoken
Congrats Jason and John, best of luck with the next one.0 -
PS Mark was telling Ciaran I was contemplating stealing your hat. Next time
Who are you!? :eek:
Just for the sake of fairness, i dont believe that any of the problems were caused due to the 'negative people' not helping out (Altho I wouldn't have minded the odd break) - the problems were as a result of confusion over the rules, not lack of officials.
I also don't really think it's fair to have a go at people for 'being negative' - Jason himself said he was happy to accept fair criticism, and people who pay to attend competitions and spend hours travelling each way have a right to complain if they want to.0 -
Yeah I agree fully.
If you pay the money, you are fully entitled to an opinion, but people have to bear in mind that competitions very rarely run without a hick up as barry said ,as well as John and Jason weren't fully expecting the volume of people who appeared through the doors that day.
That being said John did mention a preregistering system along the lines of the leagues for the next event.I suppose you have to live and learn
Roll on the next one 0 -
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