Do you think transexualism is a mental illness?

horsemeat

It's listed in the DSM-IV as a psychiatric disorder.

Do you think this reflects adequately on the concept, or is transexualism inherently ingrained in human genetics?

I personally would have to agree that it is a mental illness/psychiatric disorder.
I imagine that in years to come and with more research, pharmacological treatments will be available to cure this sickness.

Haelium

Thinking that you are the opposite gender? Yeah, that's a disorder in my book. Of course that makes me a bigot, intolerant, etc, because everything is cultural and the Y chromosome doesn't exist.

galwayrush

I think it's more to do with the ratio of male to female hormones a person has,

Gummy Panda

No.

You are who you are.

Da Shins Kelly

I dunno. I'm a live and let live kinda person, and if it makes them happy and it's what they want to do then I don't see anything wrong with it. They're not hurting anybody. There's far worse things going on in the world.

Giblet

horsemeat wrote: »

It's listed in the DSM-IV as a psychiatric disorder.

Do you think this reflects adequately on the concept, or is transexualism inherently ingrained in human genetics?

I personally would have to agree that it is a mental illness/psychiatric disorder.
I imagine that in years to come and with more research, pharmacological treatments will be available to cure this sickness.

Let's just say it's a chemical hormone imbalance. Lets pump you with enough **** to make you think you're a different gender. Or, just leave well enough the f*ck alone. They don't want to be cured. You want them to be cured. Live your own life and they'll live theirs.

Haelium

Gummy Panda wrote: »

No.

You are who you are.

So why go through a medical procedure to change your gender?

Haelium

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I dunno. I'm a live and let live kinda person, and if it makes them happy and it's what they want to do then I don't see anything wrong with it. They're not hurting anybody. There's far worse things going on in the world.

What if it's paid for by you, the tax payer? It is in Ireland. I contend, that by taking money from the tax payer for this procedure they are taking money away from schools and stuff.

starbelgrade

horsemeat wrote: »

It's listed in the DSM-IV as a psychiatric disorder.

Do you think this reflects adequately on the concept, or is transexualism inherently ingrained in human genetics?

I personally would have to agree that it is a mental illness/psychiatric disorder.
I imagine that in years to come and with more research, pharmacological treatments will be available to cure this sickness.

Psychiatric disorders are extremely common and affect billions of people across the planet at various stages in life. Attatching stigma or discrimination of any sort to these disorders does little good for anyone - except to try & make the person doing it feel in some sad little way, better about themselves.

And a mental disorder is not a sickness - it's called a disorder for a reason.

As for transexuality being a mental disorder? I wouldn't be so sure. And in any case, I say live & let live... if someone wants to do something with their own body, then that's up to them. It ain't for me to judge.

Giblet

Haelium wrote: »

So why go through a medical procedure to change your gender?

Who they are, in this case, is someone who wants to undergo surgery to change the outward appearance of their own gender.

smk89

Haelium wrote: »

So why go through a medical procedure to change your gender?

Well who doesn't want to do this?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMynC4twXV8

Pilotdude5

No

Giblet

Haelium wrote: »

...and stuff.

Thought provoking stuff indeed!

Haelium

Giblet wrote: »

Thought provoking stuff indeed!

What an enlightening and view changing response.

Dravokivich

Its not something I've ever felt the need to think about really.

I have read and seen shows were some people feel it's a cause of their confusion and proclaim themselves that they have the mindset of the opposite gender. Stands to reason with their own arguement, it can be then understood that to have the body of 1 gender, but to mentally feel as if they are the opposite, would be a mental issue as physically there are no "faults."

Not that I'm saying the above would be a mental fault, but thats where their gender issue is generally looked at.

horsemeat

starbelgrade wrote: »

And a mental disorder is not a sickness - it's called a disorder for a reason.

people who have mental illnesses are sick, how can you even question that? it's akin to saying someone with cancer isn't sick, they've just got a neoplasia.

Spunge

horsemeat wrote: »

It's listed in the DSM-IV as a psychiatric disorder.

Do you think this reflects adequately on the concept, or is transexualism inherently ingrained in human genetics?

I personally would have to agree that it is a mental illness/psychiatric disorder.
I imagine that in years to come and with more research, pharmacological treatments will be available to cure this sickness.

Just like people try to cure homosexuality, which always turns out fine, right ?

Giblet

Haelium wrote: »

What an enlightening and view changing response.

I don't think you "got" what I was implying.
It's ok, go back to thinking that these surgeries are taking away from "Schools and stuff!"

i.e.: Provide some evidence.

Haelium

Spunge wrote: »

Just like people try to cure homosexuality, which always turns out fine, right ?

Yeah, because gender denial and sexuality are one in the same right?

Two separate issues entirely.

Giblet

horsemeat wrote: »

It's listed in the DSM-IV as a psychiatric disorder.

Do you think this reflects adequately on the concept, or is transexualism inherently ingrained in human genetics?

I personally would have to agree that it is a mental illness/psychiatric disorder.
I imagine that in years to come and with more research, pharmacological treatments will be available to cure this sickness.

What will the DSM V say, do you reckon?

Haelium

Giblet wrote: »

I don't think you "got" what I was implying.
It's ok, go back to thinking that these surgeries are taking away from "Schools and stuff!"

i.e.: Provide some evidence.

Do I really need to? If the government is paying for something, and they can only spend a limited amount, then paying for one thing means that they can no longer pay for another thing. Opportunity cost.

Jen Pigs Fly

No, I don't think so at all. Some people are born thinking they are the other gender, and in order for them to feel comfortable in their own skin, they will either emulate the other gender or go through surgery to become the other gender.

horsemeat

Spunge wrote: »

Just like people try to cure homosexuality, which always turns out fine, right ?

The efficacy of heterosexual conversion camps is has absolutely no relation to that of curing people with mental sickness.

Homosexuality is no longer in the DSM, so your attempt at being intelligent failed.

A more acceptable commentwould have been ''just like people try to cure depression/schizophrenia, which always turns out fine, right?''

Giblet

Haelium wrote: »

Do I really need to? If the government is paying for something, and they can only spend a limited amount, then paying for one thing means that they can no longer pay for another thing. Opportunity cost.

Yes? You are making a claim, surely you can back it up. Or do you just go by gut feelings for any random **** you encounter? Prove. Governments pay for it. That the money was earmarked for something else.

Giblet

horsemeat wrote: »

The efficacy of heterosexual conversion camps is has absolutely no relation to that of curing people with mental sickness.

Homosexuality is no longer in the DSM, so your attempt at being intelligent failed.

A more acceptable commentwould have been ''just like people try to cure depression/schizophrenia, which always turns out fine, right?''

Ah, so you admit the DSM will change, so you quoting it, is irrelevant...

Thanks!

starbelgrade

This thread reminds me of a quote I read recently...

"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

horsemeat

Giblet wrote: »

What will the DSM V say, do you reckon?

Expected out in 2013, I don't think DSM V will declassify transexualism from its current status as a psychiatric disorder.

Giblet

horsemeat wrote: »

Expected out in 2013, I don't think DSM V will declassify transexualism from its current status as a psychiatric disorder.

It changed homosexuality, as you pointed out earlier.
Will that change your mind if it does. I'll ask Siri to set a reminder :cool:

Dravokivich

starbelgrade wrote: »

This thread reminds me of a quote I read recently...

"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

You only read that recently?

:pac:

pragmatic1

Dont know enough about the subject but couldnt give a rats arse what people do with their lives when its hurting no one.

Giblet

Dravokivich wrote: »

You only read that recently?

:pac:

So did you :P (again, but recently :P)

Haelium

Giblet wrote: »

Yes? You are making a claim, surely you can back it up. Or do you just go by gut feelings for any random **** you encounter? Prove. Governments pay for it. That the money was earmarked for something else.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082329.html
I'm not going to provide evidence for the existence of opportunity cost. The existence of a budget and limited resources should be enough for a reasonable person.

landsleaving

horsemeat wrote: »

The efficacy of heterosexual conversion camps is has absolutely no relation to that of curing people with mental sickness.

Homosexuality is no longer in the DSM, so your attempt at being intelligent failed.

A more acceptable commentwould have been ''just like people try to cure depression/schizophrenia, which always turns out fine, right?''

So it can be changed? Then perhaps transexualism will be off the list in a few years. If homosexuality were there, would you be as willing to accept that it was a 'psychiatric disorder' rather than a societal relic?

Spunge

horsemeat wrote: »

The efficacy of heterosexual conversion camps is has absolutely no relation to that of curing people with mental sickness.

Homosexuality is no longer in the DSM, so your attempt at being intelligent failed.

A more acceptable commentwould have been ''just like people try to cure depression/schizophrenia, which always turns out fine, right?''

Because homosexuality did used to be considered a mental disorder as well as being illegal, i find it a fair comparison.

horsemeat

Giblet wrote: »

Ah, so you admit the DSM will change, so you quoting it, is irrelevant...

Thanks!

it's relevant to the extent that the current book classes it as a mental sickness, and there's no indication that this will change in the next edition.

your argument is silly, it's akin to me going ''the world is round'' and you saying ''i don't believe you,i think it's cuboidal, it used be considered flat and they were wrong about that so automatically they must be wrong about it being spherical too''

Giblet

Haelium wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082329.html
I'm not going to provide evidence for the existence of opportunity cost. The existence of a budget and limited resources should be enough for a reasonable person.

Did you read the article? The procedures are proven to be medically necessary. Of course, an unreasonable person would judge it not necessary as they would unreasonably not recognise the issue as important. Due to whatever preconceptions or bias they have.

galwayrush

Haelium wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082329.html
I'm not going to provide evidence for the existence of opportunity cost. The existence of a budget and limited resources should be enough for a reasonable person.

14 operations in 5 years...:eek::eek: No wonder we have to have serious cut backs in health / education / infrastructure.:rolleyes:

L.Jenkins

In before the lock. I actually find that being characterised as having a disorder by DSM-IV is somewhat insulting and most other Transgender people would too. I admire your curiosity, but this would be better suited to the LGBT forum.

As you can see from previous posts, the level of hostility varies across the board. The fact of the matter is, the level of ignorance around the issue is quite high and there needs to be some education. I'm not going to bombard boards with resource links. If people want to learn they can ask me personally given good reason or go find out for themselves.

Giblet

horsemeat wrote: »

it's relevant to the extent that the current book classes it as a mental sickness, and there's no indication that this will change in the next edition.

your argument is silly, it's akin to me going ''the world is round'' and you saying ''i don't believe you,i think it's cuboidal, it used be considered flat and they were wrong about that so automatically they must be wrong about it being spherical too''

It's nothing like that. You open your post quoting it, then dismiss the opinion of another poster by saying it's removed? Not getting the fact that it once appeared in the very source you are quoting which is due for revision (and will actually revise the point you are trying to make). Seriously, watch for it.

Seaneh

It is, almost certainly, a mental disorder. Which in itself isn't a terrible thing, a lot of people live with mental disorders, everything from Major Depressive Disorder to OCD to Bi-Polar Disorder to Borderline Personality Disorder and everything in between.

The problem with Gender Identity Disorder is that it is a mental disorder than is being treated as a Medical problem.

The suicide rate in post-op transexuals is insanely high, the adiction rates are insanely high, the depression rate is insanely high, the instances of people starting hormone therapy and changing their mind is pretty high, in short, the current treatments aren't really effective.

There was a German Doctor who had overseen hundreds of patients treatments over the course of something like 20 years who in the last few years has started to speak up about how he feels the current treatments aren't working and using the stats of suicide and depression in his post operative patients as proof. He said that a lot of his patients had later expressed an extreme regret in having the treatment and a frighteningly high number had said it made very little difference to their happiness.

It is a disorder, and it does need to be treated, but I am not convinced that it should be treated medically.

Spunge

Seaneh wrote: »

It is, almost certainly, a mental disorder. Which in itself isn't a terrible thing, a lot of people live with mental disorders, everything from Major Depressive Disorder to OCD to Bi-Polar Disorder to Borderline Personality Disorder and everything in between.

The problem with Gender Identity Disorder is that it is a mental disorder than is being treated as a Medical problem.

The suicide rate in post-op transexuals is insanely high, the adiction rates are insanely high, the depression rate is insanely high, the instances of people starting hormone therapy and changing their mind is pretty high, in short, the current treatments aren't really effective.

There was a German Doctor who had overseen hundreds of patients treatments over the course of something like 20 years who in the last few years has started to speak up about how he feels the current treatments aren't working and using the stats of suicide and depression in his post operative patients as proof. He said that a lot of his patients had later expressed an extreme regret in having the treatment and a frighteningly high number had said it made very little difference to their happiness.

It is a disorder, and it does need to be treated, but I am not convinced that it should be treated medically.

Any links ?

Killer Pigeon

What defines mental disorders? To a large extent, it's defined from an ideological/social perspective.

Blondy below explains (watch it):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsglDXW34yo

And why should we "treat" transsexuals/ transvestites? They're cool, just look at Eddie Izzard.

L.Jenkins

Seaneh wrote: »

It is, almost certainly, a mental disorder. Which in itself isn't a terrible thing, a lot of people live with mental disorders, everything from Major Depressive Disorder to OCD to Bi-Polar Disorder to Borderline Personality Disorder and everything in between.

How about Homosexuality which was removed from the DSM manual? Many post-op transsexuals who commit suicide, do so for various reasons. For example, continuous abuse, assault or lack of acceptance within the community and or family and friends. As I said, reasons for suicide vary, especially among the hetro-normative community.

randylonghorn

horsemeat wrote: »

It's listed in the DSM-IV as a psychiatric disorder.

Being human is a psychiatric disorder.

Seaneh

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Also, is XXY a mental disorder or a genetic disorder?

It's clearly a genetic disorder that can, in about 50% of cases, lead to learning and development problems.

[edit]
That was actually an extremely stupid comparison.
[/edit]

baby and crumble

Seaneh wrote: »

The suicide rate in post-op transexuals is insanely high, the adiction rates are insanely high, the depression rate is insanely high, the instances of people starting hormone therapy and changing their mind is pretty high, in short, the current treatments aren't really effective.
.

Perhaps those rates are so high because of attitudes like those which have displayed themselves on this thread: transphobia, homophobia, bullying and discrimination are also "insanely high" in Irish society...

Annasopra

Seaneh wrote: »

It is, almost certainly, a mental disorder. Which in itself isn't a terrible thing, a lot of people live with mental disorders, everything from Major Depressive Disorder to OCD to Bi-Polar Disorder to Borderline Personality Disorder and everything in between.

The problem with Gender Identity Disorder is that it is a mental disorder than is being treated as a Medical problem.

The suicide rate in post-op transexuals is insanely high, the adiction rates are insanely high, the depression rate is insanely high, the instances of people starting hormone therapy and changing their mind is pretty high, in short, the current treatments aren't really effective.

There was a German Doctor who had overseen hundreds of patients treatments over the course of something like 20 years who in the last few years has started to speak up about how he feels the current treatments aren't working and using the stats of suicide and depression in his post operative patients as proof. He said that a lot of his patients had later expressed an extreme regret in having the treatment and a frighteningly high number had said it made very little difference to their happiness.

It is a disorder, and it does need to be treated, but I am not convinced that it should be treated medically.

How would you treat it if not medically

biko

horsemeat wrote: »

I imagine that in years to come and with more research, pharmacological treatments will be available to cure this sickness.

Sickness? Are you a fundamentalist Christian?

Bipolar Joe

This is a pretty interesting subject. The question has nothing to do with "Should we leave the trannies alone or fix 'em?" like some of you read.

I'm not an expert on anything apart from laziness, but I'm fairly sure they found a "Gay gene" or something, so if that's right it means it's just something that happens. Beats me how actual classification works, but if it's something like the "Gay gene" where it's traceable, it's not something that happens in your brain, then I wouldn't call it a disorder or mental illness. There's probably something in there you can point at and say "Check it, every transgender person has this exact thing in their DNA or whatever, this might be a thing to look into."

Seaneh

mango salsa wrote: »

How would you treat it if not medically

I'd start by treating it the same way we would other mental disorders, psychologically and psychiatrically, explore all elements of it over a long period of time before resorting to butchering people in the hope it makes them alright.

I honeslty think that in 100 years time we will look back at gender reassignment surgery with the same regret we do Frontal Lobotomies and Electroconvulsive therapy.

L.Jenkins

It could be argued that people develop as the wrong gender during the gestation period, due to an influx of hormones that does nothing to inhibit the opposing hormones.

They have found some evidence to support the idea that for example someone like myself who is male but identifies as female was actually born with a female brain. Link ---> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html So the argument for Psychiatric disorder is a bit dyfunct.