Irish in WW2 fighting for Germans ?

dubhthach

Slightly off topic, but with regards to O'Donnell in Austrian service. One of the titles of Austria is:
Graf O’Donell von Tyrconnell (Graf = Count)

The current holder is I believe a Major in the Austrian Army



Source:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~vod/jahrgang.htm

Obiturary of his father Gabriel Johannes Graf O’Donell von Tyrconnell is in this O'Donnell newsletter from 2005, along with more information about the trip of the "Jahrgang O'Donell" class of Austrian army cadets and their visit to Donegal.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vod/BinderODA34.pdf

Wikipedia has an article about Maximilian Karl Lamoral O'Donnel who in 1853 prevented the assasination of the young Emperor Franz Joseph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Karl_Lamoral_O'Donnell

Snickers Man

snafuk35 wrote: »

I was reading a book about the Burmese campaign during the Second World War. A large portion of the British forces fighting there were Indians.

60 % according to The World At War.

snafuk35 wrote: »

In once incident described in the book, a British soldier describes how an Indian fighting in his same unit who he made good friends with told him that after the war the Indians would fight him. In hindsight it is easy to judge. Not everything is black and white.

Why would you want to judge? This is a standard dilemma that many subject nations find themselves in. The Irish Volunteers found themselves in just such a quandary in 1914. They were arming up to fight the British, or at least those unionists who were set to oppose Home Rule which had been legally enacted. The actions of the British officers at The Curragh showed that they could have been fighting the Army as well, despite the Volunteers being on the legally correct "Government" side.

Then they get told their real duty is to sign up and go out to fight the Germans. Many did; many others didn't.

snafuk35 wrote: »

Similarly many of the Algerians who fought for the Free French were a decade later fighting a guerrilla war for Algerian Independence.

The leader of those Algerians, or at least of their "army" was one Ahmed Ben Bella who had won the Croix de Guerre TWICE while serving with first the French and later the Free French forces in the second World War.

Many of the Irgun (and even the Hagannah) who fought the British on behalf of the Zionist cause in Palestine had served in the British Army in the war. They had a real dilemma: Nazi Germany was their mortal enemy but the British in Palestine were their immediate foes. Especially following the famous "Government White Paper" which was published before the war which planned first to restrict and gradually to ban Jewish immigration to Palestine.

So why did so many Palestinian Jews join up for the war? As their leader Ben Gurion put it "We shall fight the war as if there is no White Paper, and fight the White Paper as if there is no war."


This is a pretty standard dilemma. There are oodles of other examples I could give. Back to George Washington, even!!!

Fuinseog

dubhthach wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but with regards to O'Donnell in Austrian service. One of the titles of Austria is:
Graf O’Donell von Tyrconnell (Graf = Count)

The current holder is I believe a Major in the Austrian Army



Source:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~vod/jahrgang.htm

Obiturary of his father Gabriel Johannes Graf O’Donell von Tyrconnell is in this O'Donnell newsletter from 2005, along with more information about the trip of the "Jahrgang O'Donell" class of Austrian army cadets and their visit to Donegal.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vod/BinderODA34.pdf

Wikipedia has an article about Maximilian Karl Lamoral O'Donnel who in 1853 prevented the assasination of the young Emperor Franz Joseph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Karl_Lamoral_O'Donnell

Douglas O Donell pictured above is a major in the reserves. As an Austrian citizen he is not permitted to call himself count as titles of nobility were abolished in 1918.
for those interested in The Wild Geese there was an interesting exhibition in Dublin a few years back. the accompanying book is well worth a read.

280special

snafuk35 wrote: »

Among the men who fought in the ranks of the French Foreign Legion in Indo-China and Algeria following World War 2 or were guns for hire in Africa in 1950s, 60s and 70s were veterans from Allied and also from Axis armies.

Including perhaps the best known of them all, Mad Mike Hoare...but not forgetting guys like Jan Zumbach in his A-26 invader over Biafra !

Delancey

Snickers Man wrote: »

Many of the Irgun (and even the Hagannah) who fought the British on behalf of the Zionist cause in Palestine had served in the British Army in the war.

The famous Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Dayan served as an officer in the Jewish Brigade of the British Army and it was while fighting Vichy French Forces in Tunisia that he lost his eye.

Snickers Man

Delancey wrote: »

The famous Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Dayan served as an officer in the Jewish Brigade of the British Army and it was while fighting Vichy French Forces in Tunisia that he lost his eye.

Lebanon actually.

And in order to join up he had first to be released from jail where he had been put for fighting against.....er, the British!

HavingCrack

snafuk35 wrote: »

I
There was a sizable following among the Blueshirts and in the IRA who were fiercely Catholic and anti-communist.

Interestingly, many of the 1930's IRA were actually staunch Marxists. 100-200 Irish (always forget the exact number) joined the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War. Many of these, such as Frank Ryan*, were ex War of Independance and Civil War veterans. The IRA were suspected of being communist at the time. The Blueshirts were the closest to a Fascist organisation.

*Ryan actually ended up in Germany in WW2 after years in Spanih Nationalist prisons. The Germans attempted to smuggle him back to Ireland to link up with the IRA to from a German-IRA alliance. He never made it and died in Berlin. His story is actually fascinating.

laoch na mona wrote: »

Paddy equals cannon fodder:rolleyes:
but some in Ireland defiantly supported Germany not the allies only logically a few would fight for Germany (Frank Ryan)

Ireland was far more pro-allied in the war than pro-axis, even amongst the general population. 50,000 Irish joined the British forces.

jonniebgood1

InTheTrees wrote: »

MY uncle spent most of ww2 in various prison camps around germany after being captured at Dunkirk.

AT one point he was approached about joining the german side, and out of curiosity, he took it as far being warned of the seriousness of messing with them and so he dropped it.

I wonder if many irish prisoners changed sides? Maybe as spies? maybe as double agents?

Not to many. Attempts were made at Friesack camp to turn Irishmen captured fighting for the allies into German soldiers. This was partially referenced earlier. In reality very few would seem to have changed sides, the exceptions rather than the rule. It seems in this book that the POWs commanding officer Colonel McGrath felt he needed to convince his fellow POW's that they should not change sides (*see quote on pages 72 & 73). Further evidence of the attempts made to get POW's to change sides are given in same book.