Thanks for making us look stupid,Enda.

georgieporgy

Vatican Diary / Catholic Ireland takes away the pope's triple-A

Dublin recalls its ambassador from Rome and downgrades its diplomatic connection with the Holy See. But in the meantime, other countries have decided to reinforce it. And these include the United Kingdom


Currently the Holy See has full diplomatic relations with 179 countries. Missing from the list, in addition to Kosovo, the international status of which is still controversial, are only fourteen states: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Bhutan, Brunei, the People's Republic of China, Comoros, North Korea, Laos, Maldives, Mauritania, Myanmar, Oman, Somalia, Tuvalu, and Vietnam. Formal negotiations are underway with the last of these. While with the newborn South Sudan, the Holy See has already manifested its intention to regularize relations as soon as possible.


Read the full article here http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350075?eng=y

alex73

Totally Pathetic move in the Irish Government.

UK lot less Catholic has even a website on their embassador http://ukinholysee.fco.gov.uk/en/


Anyway its all a distraction from the real issues. Labour wants to get Abortion laws passed in Ireland, and with the Catholic Church against it they want to use the current anti Religious sentiment to get the laws passed.

Onesimus

alex73 wrote: »

Totally Pathetic move in the Irish Government.

UK lot less Catholic has even a website on their embassador http://ukinholysee.fco.gov.uk/en/


Anyway its all a distraction from the real issues. Labour wants to get Abortion laws passed in Ireland, and with the Catholic Church against it they want to use the current anti Religious sentiment to get the laws passed.

True. And the current president Higgins campaign was also financed by Labour, no surprise there.

By the way, what happened with the poll about them being able to change Irelands current constitution? Was it ''Yay'' or ''Nay''?

delta_bravo

Can you outline any benefit of us having an embassy in the holy see considering we are in a financial mess? How many Irish citizens live there? I am a catholic but see little point in having a dedicated ambassador considering we have an embassy in Rome. Pick your battles. This was a logical decision

mikom

delta_bravo wrote: »

Can you outline any benefit of us having an embassy in the holy see considering we are in a financial mess?

Window dressing TBH.
A church gate collection could be held I suppose if we are worried about how other countries would view us.......

charlemont

If you need the embassy go into Italy for it, I think closing it is a great move, Why should the taxpayer fund an embassy just for Catholics to use ?

alex73

delta_bravo wrote: »

Can you outline any benefit of us having an embassy in the holy see considering we are in a financial mess? How many Irish citizens live there? I am a catholic but see little point in having a dedicated ambassador considering we have an embassy in Rome. Pick your battles. This was a logical decision

The Vatican stands up for Human Rights...


The Fact the China has used the Irish Closure of its Embassy in they state news as another reason why this move was badly communicated and badly timed...

It could have been handled a lot better while saving money.

All the the goverment had to do was to move the embassy to a suit in the Irish College, (rent it out) and it would have saved the same money while Still having an Embassy in Rome.

the gob****s in Leinster house have no idea who our moved has played into the hands of so many states who do not afford Christian rights!!! The vatican brings to the United Nations a Christian voice and has stood up for Christian Values...



And I SEE PDN has thanked the Quote above post 4... Nice to see how the Moderator of the Christian forum who Never sides with a Catholic issue. So impartial

gigino

Having an ambassador a stones throw away in Rome is near enough. The Vatican is little over a hundred acres anyway. Long overdue move by the government, considering the 20 billion we are borrowing a year to keep the country afloat.

gigino

alex73 wrote: »

And I SEE PDN has thanked the Quote above post 4... Nice to see how the Moderator of the Christian forum who Never side with a Catholic issue.

Even mods are entitled to their own opinions. You can be a Roman Catholic and hold R. Catholic views and still think its stupid to have an embassy in the Vatican as well as a few miles away in Rome itself...most people want the government to do something to help reduce the budget defecit.

alex73

gigino wrote: »

Having an ambassador a stones throw away in Rome is near enough. The Vatican is little over a hundred acres anyway. Long overdue move by the government, considering the 20 billion we are borrowing a year to keep the country afloat.

Well.. Then they should have handled the communication a little better..

Downsize the Embassy then more it to Ireland. Given what happened this year they could have waited a year.

The current news item just plays into the hands of Muslim Countrys and China who don't have relations with the Vatican and who don't respect Christian Rights. !

PDN

alex73 wrote: »

And I SEE PDN has thanked the Quote above post 4... Nice to see how the Moderator of the Christian forum who Never sides with a Catholic issue. So impartial

Oh give over and cut the drama queenery. Mods are expected to be impartial in their moderating decisions, but are free to express their opinions. In this case I'm actually siding with Catholicism by thanking the post of a Catholic poster (albeit a reasonable sort of Catholic that represents the opinion of most decent Catholics, not the frothing at the mouth fundamentalist minority of Catholics who make the most noise).

Turtwig

alex73 wrote: »

And I SEE PDN has thanked the Quote above post 4... Nice to see how the Moderator of the Christian forum who Never sides with a Catholic issue. So impartial

So surely you meant Catholic here then?

the gob****s in Leinster house have no idea who our moved has played into the hands of so many states who do not afford Christian Catholic rights!!! The vatican brings to the United Nations a Christian Catholic voice and has stood up for Christian Catholic Values...

Figerty

The attitude of the vatican to the enquires made by the Irish Government is reason enough to close it. The economics isn't that important.

I think the song 'Suffer little Children' has a whole new meaning in the Catholic church.

As a disillusioned catholic I think Rome seems to have forgotten its role. If China has used the closure as propaganda it's because Rome hasn't excatly lived up to its own ethod.

Shut down the embassy and let them deal with Irish embassy in Rome.

alex73

Figerty wrote: »

Shut down the embassy and let them deal with Irish embassy in Rome.

They can't. its a separate state.

It the Vatican had not been a state they could not had hid the jews in WWII.... Sure even the Rabhi of Rome later became a Catholic when he saw the compassion that was afforded them..


The failings of Some on the Church and how these failings were handled does not mean the Whole Church is bad. The Vatican is a voice in a secular world. History is History.


Before we rush to "save money"... Might be good the Ireland took our a History book and get some Facts before jumping on the Fine Gael/Labour popular bandwagon.

mikom

alex73 wrote: »

History is History.

And Economics is Economics.

Manach

mikom wrote: »

And Economics is Economics.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know" - Hayek

lmaopml

I think it's a focal point - a 'news' source, much like any other that takes the limelight - x factor today, and Vatican tomorrow - but people aren't that fickle.

Do I think it was 'necessary' - certainly not! It's a sign of the times...

There are very many more things, that in my very meagre opinion are worth talking about - for instance, special needs cuts and the lives they actually effect.....but that doesn't seem to be something that is newsworthy really...and yet it's not political, but has been swept under the carpet....while the noble ones think 'this' is a victory of sorts??

I think it's stupid, and something that the minister pulled out of his back pocket because it pleased him, and he felt comfortable, forgetting the electorate -

I think it's silly, and it's not worth any 'hip hurray'..I'm waiting on something actually worth 'hip hurraying' about in these hard times, but like everybody else Catholic or no, I'll do my bit - but not let junk news confuse me, or stupid politics, I'm one of many....

tommy2bad

Stupid populist move tbh.
What's saved isn't worth saving, they would be better off finding the 440K some where else.
Caught the headlines which is what this move was about, media distraction from the ongoing discussion of paying out money we have no obligation to pay.

I think it's stupid, and something that the minister pulled out of his back pocket because it pleased him, and he felt comfortable, forgetting the electorate -

I don;t think he forgot the electorate, I think he judged them pretty well.
http://www.mediacontact.ie/mediahq/ionainstitute/23196/new-poll-reveals-public-is-split-in-its-attitude-towards-the-catholic-church.html
I think this deserves a thread of it's own, so not to derail, I'll go start one.

mikom

Manach wrote: »

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know" - Hayek

It's better when you use the quote in full.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design"

F.A. Hayek, The Fatal Conceit.

Once enlightened you should begin cut your coat according to your cloth........ or papal vestments according to your cloth.

Keaton

Irrespective of costs or trying to offend the Vatican, this move makes Ireland look cheap, nasty, and petty. It's a bit culchie, you might say. Prestigious states like the UK have a Vatican embassy because the UK is a world player and they regard Vatican State as a key listening post and partner in international development issues. Ireland, on the other hand, is a petty, obnoxious little state with no relevance on the world stage. Now they are just proving it, after bankrupting the country, they close the embassy, to show the world they really are a bunch of thick Irish incompetents, if there was any doubt!

Compare the sophisticated and professional way the UK gov handled the Papal visit. Do you think the Irish gov could do as good a job?

Gilmore is probably too proud to realise what he and his ilk have done.

mikom

Keaton wrote: »

Ireland look cheap, nasty, and petty. It's a bit culchie, you might say.

Ah, those cheap, nasty, and petty people who live outside the pale.
How very Christian.

MrPudding

charlemont wrote: »

If you need the embassy go into Italy for it, I think closing it is a great move, Why should the taxpayer fund an embassy just for Catholics to use ?

I don't know specifically about the Irish one but the British one is only open by appointment and if you go there without an appointment you are apparently directed to the embassy in "Italy."

alex73 wrote: »

They can't. its a separate state.

Rubbish. Geoffrey Robertson visited the British embassy in the Vatican and told them he lost his passport in St Pauls. He was directed to the British embassy in "Italy"

If a person commits a crime in your precious state where are they taken? Is it the vatican police or the Italian police that will charge them? if they are prosecuted where does that happen? Where do the vaticans utilities come from? Doe they have to own water, gas and telecoms? Where do the copious amounts of crap generated there go? Who, exactly, are the permanent population and how many are they? Where to they sleep? Where is the Holy See based?

alex73 wrote: »

It the Vatican had not been a state they could not had hid the jews in WWII.... Sure even the Rabhi of Rome later became a Catholic when he saw the compassion that was afforded them..

Oh, sorry I didn't realise you had to be a state to hide Jews during the second world war. Someone better build a time machine, go back in time and tell Mr Schindler and all the ordinary people that save thousands of Jews from the nazis (who were arguable suported by certain sections of your church) that they can't save any Jews because they aren't a pretend state.

alex73 wrote: »

The failings of Some on the Church and how these failings were handled does not mean the Whole Church is bad. The Vatican is a voice in a secular world. History is History.

Yes, lets look at the voice of the vatican and see how it has used it "statehood:"

Opposing emergency contraception for refugees who were raped:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/341833.stm

Oh no, the gheys!
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0806042.htm
Clearly this is from a catholic source. They are obviously quite proud of the opposition, personally I think it is simply an other indication that this organisation has no place in the UN. Here is another source:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1863465,00.html

Needle exchanges...?:eek:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/27/vatican-un-drugs-policy

Condoms of course...
http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm

It also seems to have an issue ratifying humans rights charters... Why would that be?

alex73 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/341833.stmBefore we rush to "save money"... Might be good the Ireland took our a History book and get some Facts before jumping on the Fine Gael/Labour popular bandwagon.

As I said in the other thread, I hiope this is not just about saving money. I hope it is about sending a message, and I hope it is one that will be picked up an carried by others. The sooner this "state" loses its pretend statehood the better.

MrP

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

smokingman

Tell me again how much the catholic church still hasn't paid our nation state for the child rape scandals and how long they're going to continue to try to find a weasles way out of doing so?

tommy2bad

MrPudding, a couple of points in your post need answering.
You say 'rubbish' to the claim that the Italian embassy cant act for the Vatican as well.
Your wrong. The Vatican wont accredit the ambassador to Italy as an ambassador and neither will the Italians accredit the Vatican ambassador as Italian ambassador. This doesn't mean that either embassy cant represent citizens in either state but it dose mean that access to state officials and representation at state level is reduced. Hence the UK keeping the embassy in the Vatican.
As to removing an ambassador because we want to show disapproval of a state, always an option, one that should be of last resort.However this don't apply here. We are keeping the ambassador just closing the embassy, imho a mistake as we loose the advantage of being on the spot as it were.
The stated reason for these closures is 'no financial return', poor hope for a nation that can't keep it's friends and enemies close. All gain can't be measures in cash. If we have sunk so low that cash has become our only measure of return, we are in bigger trouble that we think.

MrPudding

tommy2bad wrote: »

MrPudding, a couple of points in your post need answering.
You say 'rubbish' to the claim that the Italian embassy cant act for the Vatican as well.
Your wrong. The Vatican wont accredit the ambassador to Italy as an ambassador and neither will the Italians accredit the Vatican ambassador as Italian ambassador.

I am not sure I really care, to be honest. i personally don't think the vatican deserves or qualifies for statehood, so whether or not they won't accredit a particular ambassador is of little interest to me.

The vatican will still, unfortunately, have an Irish ambassador, he will just be in Ireland. This will allow the vatican to continue to pretend it is a proper state. Services to Irish citizen visiting the vatican will, I would expect, see little difference.

tommy2bad wrote: »

This doesn't mean that either embassy cant represent citizens in either state but it dose mean that access to state officials and representation at state level is reduced. Hence the UK keeping the embassy in the Vatican.

Of course. And in practise, at least with respect to the UK, this is what actually happens. You will, for the most part, be directed to the British embassy that is actually accredited to an actual real state, not a makey uppy one.

And really, so what if official representation is reduced? What loss is that to any real state.

tommy2bad wrote: »

As to removing an ambassador because we want to show disapproval of a state, always an option, one that should be of last resort.However this don't apply here. We are keeping the ambassador just closing the embassy, imho a mistake as we loose the advantage of being on the spot as it were.
The stated reason for these closures is 'no financial return', poor hope for a nation that can't keep it's friends and enemies close. All gain can't be measures in cash. If we have sunk so low that cash has become our only measure of return, we are in bigger trouble that we think.

Closing an embassy is, I think, a pretty big deal, whatever reason ti is done for.

Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but I really don't think it is a simple matter of money. Perhaps the governments statement that there is no financial return is an indication that it thinks, as I do, that there is no return at all, financial or otherwise.

I agree with you that, in some things, all gains cannot be measured in cash. But can you tell me what gain the Irish receive form having an embassy to a pretend state?

MrP

tommy2bad

It's not a pretend state. Get over yourself, just because you think it's pretend doesn't make it so.
Diplomacy is about connections, introductions, and keeping a finger on the pulse. The Vatican is still an important player, not military or financially but it's influence is still considerable.

thegreengoblin

tommy2bad wrote: »

It's not a pretend state. Get over yourself, just because you think it's pretend doesn't make it so.
Diplomacy is about connections, introductions, and keeping a finger on the pulse. The Vatican is still an important player, not military or financially but it's influence is still considerable.

The idea that the Vatican is still an important player might give some Catholics a notion of self-worth but Ireland is now rapidly shedding itself of the Catholic church's influence and the less we have to do with that shower of misogynistic, sexist, homophobic dinosaurs in Rome, the better for us as a country.

Manach

thegreengoblin wrote: »

The idea that the Vatican is still an important player might give some Catholics a notion of self-worth but Ireland is now rapidly shedding itself of the Catholic church's influence and the less we have to do with that shower of misogynistic, sexist, homophobic dinosaurs in Rome, the better for us as a country.

Which I and a signifcant number in this country still are part of and fully support.

MrPudding

tommy2bad wrote: »

It's not a pretend state. Get over yourself, just because you think it's pretend doesn't make it so.
Diplomacy is about connections, introductions, and keeping a finger on the pulse. The Vatican is still an important player, not military or financially but it's influence is still considerable.

It is a pretend state. Keeping a finger on the pulse? Really? Are you serious? What "pulse" does the vatican keep its finger on? Its continued existence is due to shameless cowardice of the politicians of the various states that continue to pretend it is a real state.

Manach wrote: »

Which I and a signifcant number in this country still are part of and fully support.

The most significant thing about the number of people that are part of this organisation and continue to support it is the fact that it is getting smaller and smaller.

MrP

tommy2bad

Ireland is now rapidly shedding itself of the Catholic church's influence

Truth in that but worldwide the catholic church is growing, the RCC isn't going to be that put out by our actions.

The most significant thing about the number of people that are part of this organisation and continue to support it is the fact that it is getting smaller and smaller.

This is also true but not to the extent that we are becoming atheist in outlook or demographic, we are still above European norms for mass attendance and declared religious affiliation.
Anyway this isn't about religion or morality, it's about politics. Closing the embassy is a poor call, maybe not that important in the scheme of things but international politics should never be used to score a national point.

MrPudding

tommy2bad wrote: »

Truth in that but worldwide the catholic church is growing, the RCC isn't going to be that put out by our actions.

I expect this is a transitory phenomenon. For the most part it is growing in areas that are low in education and high in poverty and superstition. As these countries develop and the education levels increase they too will begin to see this organisation for what it is.

Poverty strife and poor education is the stuff that religion feeds on, hence, in general, in these areas the church grows.

tommy2bad wrote: »

This is also true but not to the extent that we are becoming atheist in outlook or demographic, we are still above European norms for mass attendance and declared religious affiliation.
Anyway this isn't about religion or morality, it's about politics. Closing the embassy is a poor call, maybe not that important in the scheme of things but international politics should never be used to score a national point.

We are only above the European norms probably because we started form such a high point. Mass attendance is falling quickly. In my parish of birth there were 4 churches, each having several masses per weekend. Now it is down to 1. The church I was brought up with had mass on a Saturday night, 0900hrs, 1015hrs & 1130hrs every Sunday. Now it has mass 1030hrs on Sunday and struggles to fill the church. Anecdotally this type of story is repeated throughout the country.

And really, how good is mass attendance figures to judge how religious a country is? I personally know about 30 people that only attended mass because their parents forced them to. How many attendees now do you think attend for the same reason?

As for religious affiliation, this irritates me somewhat. I was talking with a friend of mine the other day in the UK. He is an atheist, though he was brought up as a catholic. So he does not believe in god, let alone any of the catholic specific rubbish, but when asked will still identify himself as a catholic. The mind boggles.

We have all heard of the Mammies filling in the census for the kids and ignoring anything the kids might say.

And don't even get me started on a la carte catholics. My mother is divorced, used birth control, thinks sex before marriage is ok, thinks the pope is a prick, doesn't mind the gheys, does not believe that bread magically turns into dead flesh but still insists she is a catholic. How do people like that effect declared religious affiliation?

Closing the embassy to the pretend state was an excellent move. It saves the state a few quid that it sorely needs and it shows the church that the days of Ireland pandering to it are coming to a close.

Well done that man. Far from making Ireland look stupid I think he has made the country look intelligent and I hope that more countries follow, as apparently the vatican fears will happen.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/04/us-vatican-ireland-idUSTRE7A33D120111104

MrP

Zaph

I don't see anyone here who is against this decision complaining about the closure of the embassy in Iran or the representative office in Timor Leste. This was a purely economic decision as these diplomatic missions offer poor value for money. Trade with these three countries is negligible and there are few Irish citizens to look after the interests of in any of them. It makes no sense to keep them open when the country is in the state it's in. Maybe at some stage in the future if we ever get ourselves sorted we can allow ourselves the luxury of opening a few embassies in places that don't bring any economic benefit to the country, but for the time being closing them really is the only option.

georgieporgy

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0923/1224304575665.html

In a historic speech to the Bundestag the Pope urged Europeans to leave the postmodern “windowless concrete bunker” they had fashioned for themselves and “embrace the true nature of man”.

Surely only the dumbest of people would shut themselves up in their own windowless bunker.

MrPudding

georgieporgy wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0923/1224304575665.html

In a historic speech to the Bundestag the Pope urged Europeans to leave the postmodern “windowless concrete bunker” they had fashioned for themselves and “embrace the true nature of man”.

Surely only the dumbest of people would shut themselves up in their own windowless bunker.

Hardly being shut in a windowless bunker. Ireland continues to maintain plenty of embassies with actual states that provide benefits, not just financial.

What, exactly, is the advantage of having an embassy in the vatican, aside from satisfying the vatican's delusions of statehood?

MrP

Newsite

MrPudding wrote: »

I expect this is a transitory phenomenon. For the most part it is growing in areas that are low in education and high in poverty and superstition. As these countries develop and the education levels increase they too will begin to see this organisation for what it is.

Poverty strife and poor education is the stuff that religion feeds on, hence, in general, in these areas the church grows.

We are only above the European norms probably because we started form such a high point. Mass attendance is falling quickly. In my parish of birth there were 4 churches, each having several masses per weekend. Now it is down to 1. The church I was brought up with had mass on a Saturday night, 0900hrs, 1015hrs & 1130hrs every Sunday. Now it has mass 1030hrs on Sunday and struggles to fill the church. Anecdotally this type of story is repeated throughout the country.

And really, how good is mass attendance figures to judge how religious a country is? I personally know about 30 people that only attended mass because their parents forced them to. How many attendees now do you think attend for the same reason?

As for religious affiliation, this irritates me somewhat. I was talking with a friend of mine the other day in the UK. He is an atheist, though he was brought up as a catholic. So he does not believe in god, let alone any of the catholic specific rubbish, but when asked will still identify himself as a catholic. The mind boggles.

We have all heard of the Mammies filling in the census for the kids and ignoring anything the kids might say.

And don't even get me started on a la carte catholics. My mother is divorced, used birth control, thinks sex before marriage is ok, thinks the pope is a prick, doesn't mind the gheys, does not believe that bread magically turns into dead flesh but still insists she is a catholic. How do people like that effect declared religious affiliation?

Closing the embassy to the pretend state was an excellent move. It saves the state a few quid that it sorely needs and it shows the church that the days of Ireland pandering to it are coming to a close.

Well done that man. Far from making Ireland look stupid I think he has made the country look intelligent and I hope that more countries follow, as apparently the vatican fears will happen.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/04/us-vatican-ireland-idUSTRE7A33D120111104

MrP

Cripes man, how do you know that??!

But yep, sure most of Ireland are a la carte Catholics.

MrPudding

Newsite wrote: »

Cripes man, how do you know that??!

But yep, sure most of Ireland are a la carte Catholics.

Clearly she did not use it approimately 9 months before I was born, but she did use it subsequently.

MrP

Melanoma

Well I think economics of having highly paid folks in the foreign service and all the expenses they get needs looking at more so than just closing three offices. I do not think Muslims, Jews, Communists will care at all but we can save money the hard way by going through long winded processes to get value for money. Just closing things down scores not a lot. I think the timing will lead many to speculate if there was a connection and if so we could close many other embassy's before the Vatican based on problems over human rights. Its also true we still have a large group of conservative Catholics in the country. I wonder if secular majority rule is the right way to go. There is the fact that the state can do so, but its important to have a more open debate than just deciding within a small group of ministers.

michael999999

Maybe we could have afforded to keep the embassy open if the catholic church had paid there own compensation to the children they raped and sodomised for generations, instead of leaving the Irish tax payer pay for it!

Maybe the local priests could trade down there 2011 cars they all drive or cut down there house keepers hours and use the money to fund the embassy!


How about selling off some of the mansions that the priests live in on there own!

tommy2bad

but its important to have a more open debate than just deciding within a small group of ministers.

It might be but our system is 'deciding within a small group of ministers'.
Look at the end of the day this isn't a big deal, not really worth getting worked up about. I think it short sighted, others think about time. The minister looked at saving a few bob and decided that the Vatican, Iran and Timor Leste could be closed without too many people getting their nose out of joint. He was right. Most people are thinking Fu*k the Vatican, Iran's a hell hole, and Timor Leste ???.
Politics not righteous indignation drove this decision.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Keaton

MrPudding wrote: »

It is a pretend state.
MrP

With all due respect, that is BS.

Vatican is a sovereign territory with its own monarch, its own government, police force, army etc... It is accountable to no other state. I'm sick hearing about this pretend state nonsense which is largely propagated by the ghastly NSS.To save money, why not slash Joe Duffy's salary?

MrStuffins

Keaton wrote: »

With all due respect, that is BS.

Vatican is a sovereign territory with its own monarch, its own government, police force, army etc... It is accountable to no other state. I'm sick hearing about this pretend state nonsense which is largely propagated by the ghastly NSS.To save money, why not slash Joe Duffy's salary?

Jaysus!

Newsite

Lads FFS if it wasn't a state it wouldn't have an embassy in the first place! As mentioned just because you think it isn't doesn't make it so.

MrPudding

Keaton wrote: »

With all due respect, that is BS.

Vatican is a sovereign territory

it is a square and a couple of churches. It has no land to speak of and is completely reliant on Italy for pretty much everything.

Keaton wrote: »

with its own monarch,

Apparently he doesn't even stay there most nights.

Keaton wrote: »

its own government,

The holy see? Interestingly they are actually based in Rome and not the vatican. Not enough room for them I would expect. What kind of state houses its goverment in another state? Oh, I know, a pretend one.

Keaton wrote: »

police force

Really? So where does a pickpocket caught in the square get charged and prosecuted?

Keaton wrote: »

army

The Swiss Mercenaries? Let me give you a clue, it's in their name.

Keaton wrote: »

etc...

Can you please give me a bit more detail on the etc, because nothing you have said so far is helping your argument.

Keaton wrote: »

It is accountable to no other state.

And how do you figure that? They have signed up to various treaties, which makes them accountable to organisations like the UN, and by extension, the states within the UN. Of course, to date they have not been pulled up on a lot of their transgressions, but hopefully the time will come soon. With a bit of luck Ireland's action will spur other to act.

Keaton wrote: »

I'm sick hearing about this pretend state nonsense which is largely propagated by the ghastly NSS.

Yes, very nasty. What with them promoting equality and children's rights. Nasty nasty people.

Keaton wrote: »

To save money, why not slash Joe Duffy's salary?

Whilst I am not a fan, I am going to go ahead and suggest that Joe Duffy is orders of magnitude more useful than an embassy in the vatican.

MrP

Keaton

MrPudding wrote: »

it is a square and a couple of churches. It has no land to speak of and is completely reliant on Italy for pretty much everything.

Apparently he doesn't even stay there most nights.

The holy see? Interestingly they are actually based in Rome and not the vatican. Not enough room for them I would expect. What kind of state houses its goverment in another state? Oh, I know, a pretend one.

Really? So where does a pickpocket caught in the square get charged and prosecuted?

The Swiss Mercenaries? Let me give you a clue, it's in their name.

Can you please give me a bit more detail on the etc, because nothing you have said so far is helping your argument.

And how do you figure that? They have signed up to various treaties, which makes them accountable to organisations like the UN, and by extension, the states within the UN. Of course, to date they have not been pulled up on a lot of their transgressions, but hopefully the time will come soon. With a bit of luck Ireland's action will spur other to act.

Yes, very nasty. What with them promoting equality and children's rights. Nasty nasty people.

Whilst I am not a fan, I am going to go ahead and suggest that Joe Duffy is orders of magnitude more useful than an embassy in the vatican.

MrP

The Holy See government building is on Vatican territory. It's a big impressive building with gardens in front of it. I think you must be thinking of the CDF HQ. In any case, any buildings of the Holy See not on the Vatican main block are still Vatican territory.

MrPudding

Keaton wrote: »

The Holy See government building is on Vatican territory. It's a big impressive building with gardens in front of it. I think you must be thinking of the CDF HQ. In any case, any buildings of the Holy See not on the Vatican main block are still Vatican territory.

I will check my sources when I get home, but I am pretty sure most of the administrative staff live and work outside the vatican city.

Besides, is that the only point you have an answer for?

MrP

Keaton

MrPudding wrote: »

I will check my sources when I get home, but I am pretty sure most of the administrative staff live and work outside the vatican city.

Besides, is that the only point you have an answer for?

MrP

The Vatican State arose out of an agreement with the Italian government. If Italy recognizes it as a state, then why not you?

mikom

Keaton wrote: »

The Vatican State arose out of an agreement with the Italian government.

Thanks Mussolini.

Coriolanus

Don't know if it wss posted already, but for anyone genuinely worried about the plight of pilgrims in the Vatican, as an eu citizen you have the right to consular representation from any eu embassy where your home nation does not have one.
But we all know this isn't about that really.

MrPudding

Keaton wrote: »

The Vatican State arose out of an agreement with the Italian government. If Italy recognizes it as a state, then why not you?

Yes, the state did arise out of a dirty little agreement with a dictator, bought for price price of him being elected to power, but that is not relevant to whether or not it is a state now.

Statehood is now measured by the Montevideo Convention, and your pretend state falls short.

Oh, and by the way, your precious vatican continually breaches article 24 of the very agreement it seeks to rely on for its sham statehood.

As for why I don't recognise it? I made some points in a post above, I even provided links, showing where it pokes its nose in where it does not belong. Besides that, statehood is for states, not cults or religions.

MrP