Another new 'heritage' railway for Waterford?

Judgement Day

No folks, it's not April Fools Day but there's a new group set-up to reopen the Waterford - New Ross line if this news report is correct:


http://www.newrossecho.ie/news/eykfqlidoj/

Heritage railway for New Ross!

THE NEW Ross Echo can exclusively reveal this week that plans to re-open the railway line between the town and Waterford City are at an advanced stage of planning.

The scheme is being developed by Suir, Nore & Barrow Railway Heritage Ltd. and once realised will see a fully operational heritage railway operating on the line as a tourist attraction.

Representatives of SNBRH spoke about their plans to The Echo at the weekend.

“The primary aim of the group is to operate a standard-gauge railway for the enjoyment the general public [and] tourists and our members,” they said.

One of the group member, Eddie Hannon, said a number important measures still have to be implemented but plans have already reached the point where Iarnrod Eireann has agreed to grant a licence for the SNBRH to use the railway line.

Referring to the work that has to be done Mr. Hannon said it includes the acquisition and use of locomotives and rolling stock; establishing engineering teams and permanent way and vehicle maintenance crews from among volunteer members who will maintain, and in the long term, rebuild these and other rolling stock items.

He also said the plan is to develop the line so people can “enjoy the operation of a heritage railway in a safe and professional manner”.

The SNBRH also said one of its aims is to assist in re-building the tourism trade in the south east. It also hopes the re-opening the line will act as “a catalyst for social and economic regeneration of New Ross and Waterford areas.

The SNBRH has been working on the project for over three years and a lot of work has been done in that time.

“We’re spending around 30 hours per week on the project outside of our working hours,” said Mr. Hannon. However, he also pointed out that it’s a labour of love as the Board members of the SNBRH are all passionate about railways. They have a number of schemes and ideas planned to raise money for the project too and they are in the process of securing charity status for the company.

“Our plan would be that once operational any profits made from the railway would go to various charities in the region,” said Mr. Hannon.

One of the ideas the Board is considering is ‘selling’ sleepers on the track to local people and businesses.

“There are around 30,000 sleepers between Waterford and New Ross and if they were sold at even €20 each that would generate around €600,000,” said Mr. Hannon.


“We would then offer the people who ‘own’ those sleepers two free family rides on the train per year,” he added. He also commented on some of the scenes that are visible from the line but since its closure have remained hidden from the general public.

“There are some fantastic spots along the track,” he said.

“There’s one point where the cliff rises around 30 feet above it and on the other side there is a drop of around 20 feet; it’s like something out of a film,” he added. He also highlighted the fact that in Glenmore there are five counties visible from the railway line.

One of the plans in place is to build a new station in New Ross on the Stafford’s side of O’Hanrahan Bridge with the line running from there to another new station at Abbey Park in Waterford. Commenting on the proposals for New Ross Mr. Hannon said it would include a station, main platform loop, and future plans for a ticket office, toilets and information centre.

“This would dovetail very well with the existing Dunbrody project and other future projects in New Ross,” he said. He also commented on an idea the Board has to link the railway in with the proposed new swimming pool complex in New Ross: “There is no public swimming pool in Waterford so we’re looking at an idea where we could offer trips to the public pool in New Ross for people in Waterford.”

The SNBRH also pointed out that it will be encouraging as many local people and groups as possible to get involved in it.

“We will be setting it up and getting it off the ground but we will be looking for local people in the New Ross and Waterford areas to also get involved to help with maintenance and its ongoing running,” said Mr. Hannon. The Board is also looking at ways that the railway would not just be accessible for people with disabilities but that opportunities would exist for disabled people to becoming involved as members of the volunteer crews.

“We want this to be about the community and we are looking at running the type of engines that could be controlled by two drivers and perhaps provide opportunities for everyone who has ever dreamed of driving a train to do so in a controlled and safe environment,” said Mr. Hannon.

A delegation from the SNBRH is due to meet with New Ross Town Council at its next monthly meeting to discuss the matter in detail. The delegates will be asking the local councillors for their support in the project.

---

I discovered this information by accident and, bizarrely, their only piece of rolling stock appears to be an ancient, decrepit ex.Bord na Mona carriage which saw service on the Stradbally NG Railway before being returned to Bord na Mona, being donated to the Irish Narrow Gauge Trust before being finally dumped by them at the old Bord na Mona Littleton workshops in Co.Tipperary back in 1989/90.



Don't hold your breath while you wait for the first train from New Ross to Waterford.

flyingsnail

I wish them the best of luck but after reading through that I don’t think the realise the enormity of the mountain ahead of them.

Also are you allowed to sell sleepers that have been treated with creosote?

L1011

flyingsnail wrote: »

Also are you allowed to sell sleepers that have been treated with creosote?

My reading is that they're not intending to sell the sleepers to someone, but "sell" them an extant sleeper in a sponsorship deal, like how football clubs often "sell" a block for a stadium and so on.

Much as I'd love to see a standard gauge heritage line here, its going to be a huge task.

Eiretrains

I partially inspected the New Ross line last April and I can say that some sections of the route are in pieces and would require enormous amount of work just to clear the debris and everything else on the track. They might be better off doing a Waterford & Suir Valley style line, a railway which shows what can be done with a bit of disused line.

L1011

Eiretrains wrote: »

I partially inspected the New Ross line last April and I can say that some sections of the route are in pieces and would require enormous amount of work just to clear the debris and everything else on the track. They might be better off doing a Waterford & Suir Valley style line, a railway which shows what can be done with a bit of disused line.

We don't need another narrow gauge line running non-preserved stock, really.

OurLadyofKnock

"standard guage"...(?)

corktina

new ross to waterford? is that the same line as rosslare to waterford? I dont think it is is it? If its what I think it is , it is totally derelict,

how would they access waterford?
what stock would they use?

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

new ross to waterford? is that the same line as rosslare to waterford? I dont think it is is it? If its what I think it is , it is totally derelict,

how would they access waterford?
what stock would they use?

Sure they have the ancient, rotten (so bad that we dumped it back on Bord na Mona) carriage what more could they want? Perhaps a rotten ex.Bord na Mona Ruston - I'm sure the 'kingpin' of steam at Dromod has plenty in stock. :rolleyes:

corktina

so not Standard Guage then?:rolleyes:

We really could do with a decent full size genuine restored railway in the south but I can't see New Ross to Waterford being it! Not unless theres a hellova lot of Waterford people wanting to go swimming!

Midleton To Youghal would be my preference.

cml387

Mullingar hoped to get a standard gauge heritage railway on the Mullingar Athlone line some years ago.With an intact line and a good depot with some work needed).Nothing came of it.

As much as I'd want something like this to go ahead, I can't see it happen. The trackbed is absolutely in bits, even then I doubt they'd be allowed to use the IE station in Waterford so they'd have to build their own. I sometimes wonder if the barrier to preserved railways in the Republic is IE itself?

If anyone here has a right to be critical it's JD for sure.

Judgement Day

Thanks Karsini, I have to admit that while being burnt out due to my involvement in preservation, I hold no animosity towards the people involved in the New Ross project but see it as yet another 'pie in the sky' idea. There must be a hell of a lot of railway enthusiast (volunteers) living near Waterford to support two preservation projects. I have never rated the Waterford & Suir Valley due to its lack of steam, authenticity, CIE/IE type volunteers - you know high viz vests but no safety boots, propulsion of trains in one direction by loco, locosexual (?) self important chemistry between staff which makes visitors feel a nuisance (quite an authentic replication of some parts of the real railway) and there's no reason to come back. A second similar type operation will be a disaster. Now if somebody was to start a company to operate services on the Waterford/Rosslare route using chartered stock that would be a different matter.

corktina

that route would be the obvious candidate in that area but I fear the barrow bridge would be the big obstacle.

However, it could indeed be its USP couldnt it? No other preserved line in the Uk has anything like it and maybe it could indeed be the raison d'etre of a Heritage Project that could possibly attract lottery and EU funds.

L1011

the Barrow Bridge is on Waterford - Rosslare not Waterford - New Ross. There was also a Barrow bridge on New Ross - Macmine but they don't appear to be proposing to reopen that.

corktina

well were you to read JDs post that I was referring to, you'd see he is talking about the Waterford Rosslare line...

Niles

Like others I would have no objection to the idea in principle, but can see a lot of issues. For one thing a lack of volunteers, the existing Irish preservation groups struggle for volunteers is it is. In theory staff could be hired, but of course running costs would spiral upwards.

As for it being standard gauge (I assume they mean the Irish standard gauge), it would be interesting to see where they might acquire stock from, a steam engine would probably be a "must have" to attract tourists, coaching stock too, although in theory some of the heritage carriages based at Whitehead could be loaned I suppose.

I'd also be sceptical if the Waterford area can support two heritage lines, although I suppose it could be tied in with the Dunbrody Famine Ship project, perhaps making New Ross some sort of "heritage town".

As for the station, I guess they would have to build a new one in Waterford, possibly in the vicinity of the Bus Éireann garage?

Like many I'd love to see it happen, but can see many pitfalls. I wish them all the best.

dmcronin

To be blunt about it, only the English have the mindset for preservation/heritage.
If it were up the the Welsh, the various Great Little Trains of Wales projects would never have got off the ground.

All we're interested in here is drink, diddly-diddle music/rebel songs and flaking a large or small ball around a field.
We don't have the critical mass for volunteers/patrons and we scrapped pretty much everything of interest since the 60's.

dermo88

It would require cooperation from the Ministry of Transport, Iarnrod Eireann, Tourist Boards others to make it work.

Unfortunately, the result would be a lot of people wanting to be the chief and not enough Indians. It would make a nice Southern alternative to Whitehead for the RPSI. The ideal solution is to have several groups cooperating for a common cause, that means the RPSI, IRRS, ITG and MRSI. Then you get the synergies and economies of scale. Someone ex Iarnrod Eireann from the operational side to manage it, and Lottery grants also.

The problem is the line itself. Its an operational nightmare due to having 1/60 Gradients. The likes of 461, an ex D&SER engine will make it (it was built for the route after all), but anything smaller may have problems with a load of more than 6 coaches.

You also have the level crossings, tight curves, and more.

By the time its all done, insurance certification, resleepering, the rest, you won't get change from 20 Million Euro. Oh....and watch one more thing.

On a rather cynical note.....and its an unproven opinion.

Iarnrod Eireann will make sure it fails, because if a bunch of hobbyists can operate a railway for preservation for less than they can operate a modern one, the bean counters might see it.

Thats why no other standard gauge outfit exists in the Republic of Ireland.

Partizan

When I stumbled across this piece of news on a Monday morning hoping to cheer me up, I was hit by a wave of scepticism and finally resigned myself as to why it won't happen. I think dermo88 has summed it up why a perfectly sane idea that would be hugely beneficial to the SE with regards to tourism will come to grief. Too many egos, too many vested interests, too much bureucracy, too many quangoes and of course there is IE who will never allow a private operator on any of its lines, for reasons stated above.

It will never happen and like the Save the Rail crowd on the South Wexford line, will come to nowt. Not because of them, but its because of the powers that be, the political establishment hell bent on protecting its interests and that of its hangers on i.e. parasites.

Niles

dermo88 wrote: »

Unfortunately, the result would be a lot of people wanting to be the chief and not enough Indians. It would make a nice Southern alternative to Whitehead for the RPSI. The ideal solution is to have several groups cooperating for a common cause, that means the RPSI, IRRS, ITG and MRSI.

It could possibly work in terms of loaning rolling stock, but the issue of volunteers would still come into play. Most of the RPSI's volunteers are based in the Dublin area (or Belfast which is further still). Likewise the IRRS, with the MRSI further away again. That said the ITG have a base in nearby Carrick on Suir, but from what I understand they're not exactly riddled with volunteers either.

dermo88 wrote: »

The problem is the line itself. Its an operational nightmare due to having 1/60 Gradients. The likes of 461, an ex D&SER engine will make it (it was built for the route after all), but anything smaller may have problems with a load of more than 6 coaches.

True, but then again smaller locos like 186 aren't suited to loads greater than 6 carriages even on the level (that's what 186 is normally restricted to). Though I would be surprised if passenger numbers were high enough to warrant 6 carriage trains on such a line anyway. Might be the case on some lines in the UK but I would be (pleasantly) surprised to see that happen on a New Ross-Waterford set-up.

purplepanda

In theory a decent idea, a heritage railway with potential for commuter services, no point in rebuilding any railway without making full public use of it :rolleyes:

However IE will obviously put obstacles in the way of any interested parties, I'm assuming that they still own the railway & land?? Another well maintained
IE line in situ :mad:

There does seem to be some interest in the various disused railways of the south east from other operators & these type of stories just keep turing up http://www.munster-express.ie/business/rail-revolution-proposed-for-city-tramore-and-wexford/

Until IE is broken up with track & infastructure separated as per Network Rail none of this is going to happen. The government should be acting swiftly before IE brings down the rest of the rail network!

corktina

you need to qualify Network Rail as being a UK outfit. Lots of people here in Ireland wont have a clue what it is and it could be confusing.

L1011

corktina wrote: »

well were you to read JDs post that I was referring to, you'd see he is talking about the Waterford Rosslare line...

You should quote a post if you're discussing something that's different to the topic, particularly if you're then going to accuse another poster of being confusing!

Judgement Day

purplepanda wrote: »

In theory a decent idea, a heritage railway with potential for commuter services, no point in rebuilding any railway without making full public use of it :rolleyes:

However IE will obviously put obstacles in the way of any interested parties, I'm assuming that they still own the railway & land?? Another well maintained
IE line in situ :mad:

There does seem to be some interest in the various disused railways of the south east from other operators & these type of stories just keep turing up http://www.munster-express.ie/business/rail-revolution-proposed-for-city-tramore-and-wexford/

Until IE is broken up with track & infastructure separated as per Network Rail none of this is going to happen. The government should be acting swiftly before IE brings down the rest of the rail network!

Will there be room for the new tramway alongside the proposed 'heritage' line?

Cookie_Monster

The line could be rebuilt to standard guage, then one of the UK expert group could come over, fill it full of UK heritage gubbans and make millions :rolleyes:

corktina

MYOB wrote: »

You should quote a post if you're discussing something that's different to the topic, particularly if you're then going to accuse another poster of being confusing!

no what you mean is"sorry my mistake, I should have read it properley":)

L1011

corktina wrote: »

no what you mean is"sorry my mistake, I should have read it properley":)

Erm, no.

corktina

okey doke, but in real life conversation ,you would reply to what the previous person has said or , if you wanted to refer back to something said earlier in the conversation , you would refer to the original item before making your comment. You are advocating the opposite. C'est la vie!

dowlingm

Iarnrod Eireann should not be part of the conversation if the venture will not be connected to the network. The railbed should be divested by them to the OPW or the local councils since they have no interest in running service on it. If service has not run on any piece of railbed in the last five years, IE should be forced to give it up to someone who will make use of it or at least pay the cost of maintaining bridges and whatnot.

As it is, IE would probably say "of course you can run through service from the network! You just have to pay the cost of CTCing the entire Waterford terminal area so we don't have to!" like the stroke they pulled with Foynes where they let the line go to sh!t and told the Port they'd have to pay to reinstate it.

Judgement Day

And like they did for the Ardee branch at Dromin Junction, when they looked for the grain traffic operator to pay for the entire cost of retaining the connection to the Dublin/Belfast line. :rolleyes:

L1011

dowlingm wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann should not be part of the conversation if the venture will not be connected to the network. The railbed should be divested by them to the OPW or the local councils since they have no interest in running service on it. If service has not run on any piece of railbed in the last five years, IE should be forced to give it up to someone who will make use of it or at least pay the cost of maintaining bridges and whatnot.

Guarantee we'd see IE road haul EM50 to Youghal, Kingscourt, New Ross, Moate, Charlestown, Fenit, etc to run it up and down the first vaguely safe bit of track they find...

dowlingm

MYOB: If the NTA was stupid enough not to specify revenue service I guess that wheeze might work all right.

purplepanda

MYOB wrote: »

Guarantee we'd see IE road haul EM50 to Youghal, Kingscourt, New Ross, Moate, Charlestown, Fenit, etc to run it up and down the first vaguely safe bit of track they find...

Is there really any chance of disused lines been taken away from IE by the government or NTA? Do IE sell any adjacent land beside these old lines for development that they own, old freight yards, buildings ect? What about cost of repair of old bridges on these disused lines?

There's plenty of these lines justing lying in limbo whilst others seem to have been made into greenways for example. The Waterford New Ross line was used up until the '80's for freight so IE must still own it all. What about the other side of the New Ross Barrow bridge line eastwards to Macmine, who owns the land & trackbed, the council?

Three iron river crossing bridges built in the South East 100 odd years ago & IE have managed to close down services on them all. What a waste of a transport legacy!:mad:

IE are still responsible for the bridges on the North Kerry trackbed, there's one underbridge near Kilmorna (east of Listowel) which has the yellow "If this bridge is struck by a vehicle..." sign on it, even though there's zero risk of a train coming off it!

dowlingm

Karsini wrote: »

IE are still responsible for the bridges on the North Kerry trackbed, there's one underbridge near Kilmorna (east of Listowel) which has the yellow "If this bridge is struck by a vehicle..." sign on it, even though there's zero risk of a train coming off it!

I think some of the lines have fibre optic down them from the Esat deal (which was a botch job where the cable had to be relaid in places IIRC) but surely the income from that can't defray the entire amount of the liability that these bridges etc. represent?

dowlingm

dowlingm wrote: »

I think some of the lines have fibre optic down them from the Esat deal (which was a botch job where the cable had to be relaid in places IIRC) but surely the income from that can't defray the entire amount of the liability that these bridges etc. represent?

Yes the North Kerry certainly has the Esat fibre optic network installed through it. I agree with what you're saying, they have to spend money maintaining infrastructure that no longer has any railway interest.

dubhthach

BT fibre these days, their major back haul to both Cork and Galway run along the rail track. main competitor for back haul IP traffic is ESB Telecom

Drimnagh Road

They could even run a "heritage bus shuttle" between the SN&BRH station in Waterford City and the W&SVR Railway at Kilmeaden...

(this Bombardier somehow manages to survive at Waterford bus depot, photo taking during the Toll Ships which explains the Dublin Buses)

Judgement Day

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

They could even run a "heritage bus shuttle" between the SN&BRH station in Waterford City and the W&SVR Railway at Kilmeaden...

(this Bombardier somehow manages to survive at Waterford bus depot, photo taking during the Toll Ships which explains the Dublin Buses)

I hope you're not suggesting that horrible looking heap is a 'heritage' vehicle. Send it down to the Kells Transport Museum.

Drimnagh Road

Actually, ironic you should mention Kells, because I believe the reason why a few of these buses have survived was because of court action taken against Bus Eireann by a certain Mr. Grimes, something along the lines of because they refused to sell them to him after they were withdrawn.

As a result, Bus Eireann were ordered not to scrap the vehicles concerned until an outcome was reached.

Open to correction on this though.

dermo88

Its about as welcoming a part of Irish heritage as a TB Ward, a Coffin ship and an Industrial school.

But heritage nonetheless.....

Cookie_Monster

They're great auld yokes those bombadiers

I remember getting one to Cong from whatever the nearest railway station was (Galway??) many moons ago with scouts.
We lost the roof skylight about halfway there and then it over heated.

dermo88

If I had to use one on a regular basis, I have to admit, I'd wear a Burqa and start singing "The wheels on the bus go round and round"......

With some extra dynamite.

roundymac

Judgement Day wrote: »

I hope you're not suggesting that horrible looking heap is a 'heritage' vehicle. Send it down to the Kells Transport Museum.

Might not be a good idea.
http://examiner.ie/ireland/gardai-probe-arson-attack-on-vintage-bus-museum-157892.html

Judgement Day

roundymac wrote: »

Might not be a good idea.
http://examiner.ie/ireland/gardai-probe-arson-attack-on-vintage-bus-museum-157892.html

That' s why I suggested it.

purplepanda

dermo88 wrote: »

Its about as welcoming a part of Irish heritage as a TB Ward, a Coffin ship and an Industrial school.

But heritage nonetheless.....

Got a bus from Longford Town 7 miles northwards to Drumlish in the mid 80's , the design was like a St Trinians school bus & it was as old as one!!!!

First thing you noticed when you stepped up to pay the driver was a 18" wide gapping hole on the floor right beside the drivers cab!!!:eek:

Not sure if it was a BE or private company, probably the later!!

Judgement Day

So now it appears that there are two groups reopening the New Ross branch - perhaps it will be double track as a result?

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

So now it appears that there are two groups reopening the New Ross branch - perhaps it will be double track as a result?

Who is behind said letter, good man?

purplepanda

So which crowd has the Facebook group page?

http://www.facebook.com/groups/164404710348355/

Sligo Quay

purplepanda wrote: »

So which crowd has the Facebook group page?

http://www.facebook.com/groups/164404710348355/[/QUOTE]
Ah people are well meaning and have the hearts in the right place, but its all pie in the sky stuff, ask Judgement Day, he's been there and done that.
As for the facebook page, it reminds me of an RPSI railtour brochure, great pictures but awful reading, full of nonsense, reminds me of a great quote from the late Maeve Binchy when the editor of the Irish Times would put her under pressure for an article ''don't get it right, just get it written'' think she got that from James Thurber.

end of the road

the line won't reopen either as a heritage line or a nothing line, CIE will do whatever it takes to make sure of it. i wish the group or groups involved the best of look trying though, i'm open to being proved wrong but i have a feeling i won't be.