The greatest ever?

Melion

Not players this time. Managers!

Just watching Football Focus, would anyone dispute SAF as the greatest manager of all time?

Kess73

If you are talking only about the UK, then it is between Bob Paisley and Ferguson in my eyes.

If you are talking World football, then there are a number of managers who could have cases argued for them.

HalloweenJack

As much as I detest his character, you can't knock his achievements.

I'm just hoping guys like Mourinho and Guardiola go on to have more successful careers.

Though, one things about Ferguson, he started at Man U in a different footballing era. I guarantee, they won't give the next guy six years to win a title. He'll be out on his ear if it takes three and a half years to win his first trophy.

G.K.

He's up there, but not necessarily the best.

Melion

Kess73 wrote: »

If you are talking only about the UK, then it is between Bob Paisley and Ferguson in my eyes.

If you are talking World football, then there are a number of managers who could have cases argued for them.

There are only 2 that comes close to him in England, Shanks and Paisley. I meant in world football.

Gillington

The last real club where the actual club itself has evolved around the manager,he knows just about everything that goes on and has a say in nearly everything involved.

I have to despise him,being a City fan but nothing can take away from his achievements

Vanbis

For me yes. 25years at the top. One of his greatest strengths has being able to adapt to the changes in football in his time at Manutd.

Nalz

HalloweenJack wrote: »

As much as I detest his character, you can't knock his achievements.

I'm just hoping guys like Mourinho and Guardiola go on to have more successful careers.

Though, one things about Ferguson, he started at Man U in a different footballing era. I guarantee, they won't give the next guy six years to win a title. He'll be out on his ear if it takes three and a half years to win his first trophy.

That's exactly it, a different era. Who's to say that a young Ferguson wouldn't do it in a shorter time in these modern times at the club which is now a global giant and in a way better shape, not a squad with talented players who weren't producing and fond of the booze?

Took him 3.5 years at a sleeping giant in a mess who were bottom of the league in the mid 80s... no way if attracting overseas quality. He rebuilt that club with shrewdness, vision and well spent money imo

ILikeBananas

Yeah I think so. He's won the same number of trophies as Shankley and Paisley combined which should put paid to any argument about the pecking order in Britain.

He's record at United is amazing but also remember that he won the Scottish league with Aberdeen and went on to win a european trophy with them too.

In terms of world management one of his main challengers would be Trap. Hard to believe it from watching his decisions with the Irish team but Trappatonni actually has a very impressive record, winning titles wherever he goes.

The football pantheon website also highly rates a guy who I must admit I've never even heard of, Helenia Herrera, who won league titles all over europe beteen the 40's and 70's.

Mars Bar

I had a Liverpool fan tell me last night that Tommy Docherty was the greatest manager United ever had. :rolleyes:

Nalz

mars bar wrote: »

I had a Liverpool fan tell me last night that Tommy Docherty was the greatest manager United ever had. :rolleyes:

Ha

You can't even mention that lads name to my Dad! Terrible commentator too, as was little Ron

Mars Bar

Trilla wrote: »

Ha

You can't even mention that lads name to my Dad! Terrible commentator too, as was little Ron

His replies were, "brought them up,class team all attack,got fired cause he fell in love.how morals have changed eh". and "He. Was a gent and no million pound cheques or sad mind games either total respect for the doc"

Kess73

ILikeBananas wrote: »

Yeah I think so. He's won the same number of trophies as Shankley and Paisley combined which should put paid to any argument about the pecking order in Britain.

He's record at United is amazing but also remember that he won the Scottish league with Aberdeen and went on to win a european trophy with them too.

In terms of world management one of his main challengers would be Trap. Hard to believe it from watching his decisions with the Irish team but Trappatonni actually has a very impressive record, winning titles wherever he goes.

The football pantheon website also highly rates a guy who I must admit I've never even heard of, Helenia Herrera, who won league titles all over europe beteen the 40's and 70's.

Then again Bob was Liverpool manager for just under 9 years and won the European cup three times in that time as well as six league titles, not to mention 11 "lesser" trophies. To win that much in 8 years and 9 months is an astonishing record.

Still think it is a toss up between Bob and Ferguson as to who was the best ever UK based manager, with my biased opinion being that Bob was better.


The more I think about great managers in world football the more options that come to mind as potentially the best ever.

One of greats no doubt.

As the saying goes, there's life ouside British football...

Melion

rarnes1 wrote: »

One of greats no doubt.

As the saying goes, there's life ouside British football...

Thats why i asked about world football

born2bwild

Valeriy Lobanovski.

born2bwild

ILikeBananas wrote: »

Yeah I think so. He's won the same number of trophies as Shankley and Paisley combined which should put paid to any argument about the pecking order in Britain.

He's record at United is amazing but also remember that he won the Scottish league with Aberdeen and went on to win a european trophy with them too.

In terms of world management one of his main challengers would be Trap. Hard to believe it from watching his decisions with the Irish team but Trappatonni actually has a very impressive record, winning titles wherever he goes.

The football pantheon website also highly rates a guy who I must admit I've never even heard of, Helenia Herrera, who won league titles all over europe beteen the 40's and 70's.

Didn't Herrera invent the Catenaccio? Thanks for boring us all to death

eagle eye

Rinus Michels is the greatest of all time and its not even close for me.

tommyhaas

ILikeBananas wrote: »

Yeah I think so. He's won the same number of trophies as Shankley and Paisley combined which should put paid to any argument about the pecking order in Britain.

That's a flawed argument IMO, as Ferguson has also been in charge far longer then both Shankly and Paisley combined

jamsieboy86

As an Inter fan I'd have to say Helenio Herrera gets my vote.

He won 3 Scudetti, 2 European Cups and 2 Intercontinental Cups with Inter.

He also won the Spanish League several times with both Barca and Atletico Madrid.

Trap won a league with Inter too, but won too much with Juve to forgive.

born2bwild

eagle eye wrote: »

Rinus Michels is the greatest of all time and its not even close for me.

Ah Michels he gets the credit for Total Football but Lobanovski's predecessor at Dinamo Kiev, Victor Maslov, came up with it first.

Either way, if you choose Herrera, you're choosing the type of football played by his descendants such as Trappatoni and Mourhinio

If you choose Maslov or Michels, you're choosing the football played by his present day inheritors, Guardiola, and, right here in Ireland, Paul Cook.

Give me Michels - Maslov over Herrera - Mourhinio any day.

ILikeBananas

tommyhaas wrote: »

That's a flawed argument IMO, as Ferguson has also been in charge far longer then both Shankly and Paisley combined

That's certainly true but surely there's merit on consistently winning titles over a huge length of time. Otherwise we could just agree that Guardiola is the best manager since he's won 3 leagues and 2 champion's leagues in his 3 years managing Barcalona.

K-9

Kess73 wrote: »

Then again Bob was Liverpool manager for just under 9 years and won the European cup three times in that time as well as six league titles, not to mention 11 "lesser" trophies. To win that much in 8 years and 9 months is an astonishing record.

Still think it is a toss up between Bob and Ferguson as to who was the best ever UK based manager, with my biased opinion being that Bob was better.


The more I think about great managers in world football the more options that come to mind as potentially the best ever.

Plus Shankly, Fagan and Dalglish all gave him credit for being in the background.

To put his achievements in context:

League & UEFA Cup 75/76, League & European Cup 76/77, European Cup 78.

That's a League double and a European treble in the days that the UEFA Cup was a major competition.

League 78/79, 80/81 League Double.
European Cup 81 and League Cup.
Treble in 81.

League 81/82, 82/83
League Cup 82,83, 3 in a row.

Replaced Keegan with Dalglish and made his own team in the early 80's.

Heavily involved with Shankly & Dalglish.

K-9

Kess73 wrote: »

Then again Bob was Liverpool manager for just under 9 years and won the European cup three times in that time as well as six league titles, not to mention 11 "lesser" trophies. To win that much in 8 years and 9 months is an astonishing record.

Still think it is a toss up between Bob and Ferguson as to who was the best ever UK based manager, with my biased opinion being that Bob was better.


The more I think about great managers in world football the more options that come to mind as potentially the best ever.

Plus Shankly, Fagan and Dalglish all gave him credit for being in the background.

To put his achievements in context:

League & UEFA Cup 75/76, League & European Cup 76/77, European Cup 78.

That's a League double and a European treble in the days that the UEFA Cup was a major competition.

League 78/79, 80/81 League Double.
European Cup 81 and League Cup.
Treble in 81.

League 81/82, 82/83
League Cup 82,83, 3 in a row.

Replaced Keegan with Dalglish and made his own team in the early 80's.

This was when Clough was at Forest, Robson at Ipswich and Villa won a European Cup.

Heavily involved with Shankly & Dalglish.

Dotrel

Arrigo Sacchi.

Lobanovskyi also a good nomination.

Eathrin

Who managed Greece to euro 2004?

Het-Field

Sir Alex Ferguson is easily Britain's best, and is probably the World's best.

1) His tangible achievements are second to none. That is not only with Manchester United. He won National and European titles with Aberdeen, and a subordinate title with St Mirren. Along with Jock Stein he also took Scotland to a World Cup finals. The man has brought success, and relative success(with St Mirren and the Scotland National Team)

2) The plethora of players which he cultivated is second to none. Many of these players remained with Ferguson throughout their careers, many of the rest moved on and became hits with other clubs. The likes of Dion Dublin, Gary Walsh, Keith Gillespie, Terry Cooke, Jordi Cruyff and Phil Neville all became lynchpins at the clubs which followed their stints at Old Trafford, having been deemed surplus to requirements. This is a prime example of the "trickle down benefits" of Big Teams. While the likes of West Ham United have benefitted a "trickle up" effect, MUFC's surplus has benefitted smaller teams, who have enjoyed the real benefits of players like Dion Dublin.

3) Ferguson has also been involved in the cultivation of a number of players which have gone on to manage Top Teams. Strachan, Ince, Hughes, Keane, Bruce, Ferguson Jnr etc must have drawn their vocation, to some extent, from Ferguson.

4) Ferguson has built several new teams, occasionally from scratch, which have gone on to succeed. Alan Hansen will never be let forget his comments about "kids" and their abilities on the 19th August 1995. When Ferguson noticed a malaise in the team of 1998 he took remedial action by signing Yorke, Blomqvist and Stam, and developing a squad of players which allowed for the benching of players like Solskjaer, Sheringham, Berg, May, and Van Der Gouw, who would have walked into most other Premiership teams. Although it appeared to be slipping away from him in 2006, Ferguson managed to re-calibrate, and the holy trinity of Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo aided and abetted MUFC in the Championing of England, and Europe.

5) The greatest achievement in modern footballing history is Manchester United's Treble of 1998/1999. United achieved the treble in one of the most comeptitive English Seasons in living memory (in April 1999 it was concievable that 10 Premiership Clubs could have qualified for European Competition), in beating Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, and Chelsea along the way to the FA Cup, and showing huge resiliance in winning the Champions League.

6) Ferguson also displayed great capability in judging a situation when it developed throughout his stint at OT. His decisions to sell fan's favourites like Beckham, Ince, Kanchelskis, Tevez, Ronaldo, and RVN all came at times when it became clear that their continued presence at the club was no longer desirable. Naturally, that incurred the wrath of some of the clubs supporters, however, he took these decisions in the best interests of the club, and in most cases it paid dividends.

Dotrel

Cian A wrote: »

Who managed Greece to euro 2004?

Otto Rehhagel.

losthorizon

Clough - What he did with a small club like Forest was amazing both in England and in Europe at a time when the English game was much stronger in depth then it is now.

Guy Roux - Auxure is a tiny club yet he kept them in Frances highest division and won the Ligue 1 title. Produced some great players as well and the club did consistantly well in Europe.

Zebra3

Ferguson is on the same amount of European Cups as Pep.

So far from the greatest ever.

tdv123

Arrigo Sacchi

Lawrence1895

Ottmar Hitzfeld. What he achieved with Borussia Dortmund in the 90s, was just outstanding

Where To

Dario Gradi.


And I'm serious.

Mr. Presentable

Melion wrote: »

Not players this time. Managers!

Just watching Football Focus, would anyone dispute SAF as the greatest manager of all time?

I would. Top three in England, maybe top ten worldwide.

thorbarry

Het-Field wrote: »

5) The greatest achievement in modern footballing history is Manchester United's Treble of 1998/1999.

I am not sure if I agree with that statement. Arsenal went a whole league season without loosing a single game. Barcelona also won the treble in 2009.

I am not saying either of these is a better achievement, its worth arguing the point tho.

dfx-

thorbarry wrote: »

I am not sure if I agree with that statement. Arsenal went a whole league season without loosing a single game. Barcelona also won the treble in 2009.

I'd disagree with that statement strongly for the same viewpoint. Barcelona picking up all six trophies for 08/09 is by far better alone.

Some good calls, I wouldn't have Ferguson in a top three or top ten worldwide as mentioned.

Michels and as a subsection Cruyff at Barcelona. Cruyff's Dream Team is the style that Barcelona then adopted ever since bringing about the current side which is bearing fruition now, the greatest side ever in my opinion.

Dario Gradi is another great shout. Seriously. Hitzfeld, Sacchi, Lobanovski, Clough, Guardiola, Wenger

J Cheever Loophole

Brian Howard Clough for his alchemy at not just Derby County, but Nottingham Forest as well. That said, the single greatest achievement by any British manager was Stein winning the European Cup in 1967 with a side that had the geographical spread of a pub eleven.

PARKHEAD67

Melion wrote: »

Not players this time. Managers!

Just watching Football Focus, would anyone dispute SAF as the greatest manager of all time?

Jock Stein. Winning a European Cup with 11 Glaswegians is preety unique.;)

Ulysses Gaze

Ernst Happel - Often overlooked: Along with Jose Mourinho and Hitzfeld, the only other Manager to win the European Cup with two different teams.


Management Record

ADO Den Haag
Dutch Cup: 1967–68

Feyenoord

Dutch Championship: 1970–71
European Cup: 1969–70
Intercontinental Cup: 1970

Club Brugge

Belgian Championship: 1975–76, 1976–77, 1977–78
Belgian Cup: 1976–77
UEFA Cup: 1975-76 (Runner-up)
European Cup: 1977-78 (Runner-up)

Standard Liège

Belgian Cup: 1980–81
Belgian Supercup: 1981
Belgian Championship: 1979-80 (Runner-up)

The Netherlands

FIFA World Cup: (Runner–Up) 1978

Hamburger SV

German Championship: 1981–82, 1982–83
German Cup: 1986–87
European Cup: 1982–83
UEFA Cup: 1981–82 (Runner-up)
European Super Cup: 1983 (Runner-up)
Intercontinental Cup: 1983 (Runner-up)

FC Swarovski Tirol

Austrian Championship: 1988–89, 1989–90
Austrian Cup: 1988–89

onemorechance

St. Mirren

Scottish First Division (1): 1976–77

Aberdeen

Scottish Premier Division (3): 1979–80, 1983–84, 1984–85
Scottish Cup (4): 1981–82, 1982–83, 1983–84, 1985–86
Scottish League Cup (1): 1985–86
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1982–83
UEFA Super Cup (1): 1983

Manchester United

Premier League (12): 1992–93, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2010–11
FA Cup (5): 1989–90, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
League Cup (4): 1991–92, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10
FA Charity/Community Shield (10): 1990 (shared), 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
UEFA Champions League (2): 1998–99, 2007–08
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1990–91
UEFA Super Cup (1): 1991
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008

The best ever!

Ulysses Gaze

Lars1916 wrote: »

Ottmar Hitzfeld. What he achieved with Borussia Dortmund in the 90s, was just outstanding

They were mad to move him upstairs and replace him with Nevio Scala.

Still he did a great job with Bayern.

monkey9

Ferguson's longevity at one club is something that counts in his favour. To stay in the one job, and one of the top jobs in world football, and be as successful as he has on a continuous basis, is really quite remarkable!!

His European record counts against him, though. Considering his domination of the Premier League, that hasn't really translated onto the European stage.

What i find amazing about Ferguson is that he's been able to adapt throughout the changes in football and transform his ways as the game dictates. It would have been so easy to have stuck to an old school type management, but he's always been up with the modern game.

The question about the greatest manager can never be definitively answered as it can only be a matter of opinion. What even are the perimeters?? Is it based on trophies won? Is it based on changing the game?? It just can never be definitively answered.

The likes of Rinus Michels and Valery Lobanovski can definitely be considered because they were successful in terms of trophies, but also in terms of inventing a certain style of football. Even Herbert Chapman back in the day should be considered because of his success with Arsenal and Huddersfield and his invention of the WM formation.

In saying all this though, Pete Mahon is the greatest manager of all time. End of story!!

kryogen

Zebra3 wrote: »

Ferguson is on the same amount of European Cups as Pep.

So far from the greatest ever.

Incredible stupid comment for various reasons, most of which i would also be offended to have to spell out

jamsieboy86

Het-Field wrote: »

5) The greatest achievement in modern footballing history is Manchester United's Treble of 1998/1999.

Barcelona and Inter would certainly disagree with that statement, I think you have EPL blinkers on. All 3 trebles were equally great in my eyes.

Zebra3

kryogen wrote: »

Incredible stupid comment for various reasons, most of which i would also be offended to have to spell out

What I stated is simple fact.

You don't like it, tough.

Le King

Zebra3 wrote: »

kryogen wrote: »

Incredible stupid comment for various reasons, most of which i would also be offended to have to spell out

What I stated is simple fact.

You don't like it, tough.

What you stated is a fact. But what you're portraying through that fact is simple bollocks.

I could win the CL with that Barca team.

tommyhaas

Le King wrote: »

What you stated is a fact. But what you're portraying through that fact is simple bollocks.

I could win the CL with that Barca team.

Its not as if SAF won it with a Sunday Lge team either though is it? I'd guess you could also have won it with the Utd team of 08?

If you're going to dismiss Guadiola's achievements at Barca on the basis of him having an excellent side, equally should many of SAF's achievements not be dismissed on the same basis?

I'm not for a second claiming Guadiola has a patch on SAF in terms of claims to be the greatest of all time, but SAF's lack of European success is legitimate mark against any such claim

Le King

Le King wrote: »

What you stated is a fact. But what you're portraying through that fact is simple bollocks.

I could win the CL with that Barca team.

On the playstation perhaps.

Great players need a great manager to gel them together.

There's been many cases of teams with great individuals not reflecting their brilliance with trophies.

doomed

Is SAF the best ever? On the world stage? I doubt it. He is a great manager and has the longest reign and the most trophies in England but he is also managing a club that has consistently had the wealth and power to attract better players. Its impossible to compare.

Look what Clough won with journeymen. Under a lot of other managers Derby and Forrest would have been relegated. There is no other British manager who could have won the European Cup with Notts Forrest.

Mourinho's achievement winning the Champions league with Porto is greater than SAF winning it with MU or Pep doing it with Barca. Then he goes and does it again with Inter.

Ulysses Gaze

Le King wrote: »

What you stated is a fact. But what you're portraying through that fact is simple bollocks.

I could win the CL with that Barca team.

Alright, so should we dismiss all of Fergusons achievements at Aberdeen because the majority of the side that he won all the trophies he did with, was put together by Billy McNeill and his predecessors. And when SAF took over they'd finished second in the League the previous season and hadn't lost a game since December?

And no you couldn't win the CL with Barca.

Why Utd fans feel the need to denigrate Guardiola's achievements I don't know.

SAF took over the most supported club in England with a mammoth stadium, glittering history and deep pockets and with several star, if underachieving, players.

It's not like he took over Pompey and achieved all he did.

aramush

GIOVANNI TRAPATTONI