Could you survive?

ajhalpin

Don't know if this has come up before but, if you had to take to the hills, (say to hide out from an invasion of ticked off european bureaucrats), where would you go and is it possible to survive off the land in Ireland? I mean there isn't exactly an abundance of wild food apart from the odd stray deer or a few blackberrys in autumn. Or am I completely wrong and is there a whole hidden world of gourmet delights waiting to be discovered in our forests and fells?

Hibrion

A well stocked bug out bag would be a nice starting point

Tabnabs

If you had to BO to a rural location and live off the land, you'd have to be very lucky to find a good place. In any major emergency in Ireland IMHO you have to look at either bugging in or going the closest port and/or airport to evacuate.

kildare.17hmr

that would be true for the majority of people alrite. I have a few spots within walking distance of where i live, when i say walking distance i mean a few days hike with resources along the way like good cover, water and food. Most people will do as you said and while the airports and ferry ports shut down and everyone is left around them there will be a few others like myself going the opposite way!

krissovo

I have done a few reccy's and have a few sites that I will attempt to get to if the worst happens. My primary plan is to try and stay in my home as its fairly rural. I have plenty of bunnies, rats and fish to keep my family going.

The sites I have looked at and even spent weekends trying to live off the land would keep my family going for a few weeks I think. After this time we would need to think about nutrition.

You can live quite well off the land in Ireland. There is plenty of food out there if you know how to get it. Water is plentiful and reasonably clean, wildlife is plentiful and year round

kildare.17hmr

krissovo wrote: »

I have done a few reccy's and have a few sites that I will attempt to get to if the worst happens. My primary plan is to try and stay in my home as its fairly rural. I have plenty of bunnies, rats and fish to keep my family going.

The sites I have looked at and even spent weekends trying to live off the land would keep my family going for a few weeks I think. After this time we would need to think about nutrition.

You can live quite well off the land in Ireland. There is plenty of food out there if you know how to get it. Water is plentiful and reasonably clean, wildlife is plentiful and year round

I have done the same but unfortunatly i live in a town but only a few miles down the road is rural and i would very rarely meet people ut when im hunting. 20 min walk from my house is another world that few people visit, rich with rabbits, squirels, foxes, all kinds of birds and even deer all of which would be on the menu for me.

krissovo

When we go camping out my family often joke that we eat better when wild camping than when at home.

Breakfast is often fresh trout and dinner is normally a rabbit stew with a fish starter

Tabnabs

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Most people will do as you said and while the airports and ferry ports shut down and everyone is left around them there will be a few others like myself going the opposite way!

Where did I mention ferry ports?

If I can't get airlifted, my boat will take me to safety abroad. It has heat, shelter, power, water and off grid living.

Living off the land is a fine idea in a country as large as the US or Canada. But even UK preppers admit that the population vs land size of these two islands makes it difficult to survive for anything more than an individual. In normal times your stomping ground (and we all have them) is wide and empty. In a post SHTF time you'll be competing with all sorts of people on the road.

Grizzly 45

There is a whole load of wild food available out there in Ireland that people walk past every day and ignore.But id you were to put a European here ,they will eat all and sundry.Simply because they recognise it as food and we dont.
However, as said heading for the hills isnt going to be a great option as everyone else will be doing it as well.Unless you have a pre cached supply and a very good cammoflaged retreat somwhere,running off isnt going to get you much.You can just live so long in the wild from a backpack too.It will depend on the threat as well which will decide your evacuation plans or staying put.If we were being invaded say.I doubt very much that heading for airports oe ferry ports would be a smart move.:pac:

kildare.17hmr

Tabnabs wrote: »

Where did I mention ferry ports?

If I can't get airlifted, my boat will take me to safety abroad. It has heat, shelter, power, water and off grid living.

Didnt notice you didnt say ferry:D Would love to have my own boat, maybe some day!

Living off the land is a fine idea in a country as large as the US or Canada. But even UK preppers admit that the population vs land size of these two islands makes it difficult to survive for anything more than an individual. In normal times your stomping ground (and we all have them) is wide and empty. In a post SHTF time you'll be competing with all sorts of people on the road.

your probably right but ill take my chances, i certainly wouldnt be rushing off to dublin airport with the rest of leinster i think initially that would be very dangerous

ajhalpin

I could see how you might make it through the spring, summer, or autumn, but winter would be a different kettle of fish altogether. In fact there would be no fish for your kettle, except maybe the odd pike. If you dont have a rifle then I guess youre pretty screwed. I used to snare rabbits as a kid but never had much luck. Actually, it was my mate who would check the snares while I got the fire going. Its funny how my snares never seemed to have anything in them but his invariably did. I guess without a gun bugging in is the only option.

kildare.17hmr

have shotgun and rifle so Thats covered

slowburner

ajhalpin wrote: »

Don't know if this has come up before but, if you had to take to the hills, (say to hide out from an invasion of ticked off european bureaucrats), where would you go and is it possible to survive off the land in Ireland? I mean there isn't exactly an abundance of wild food apart from the odd stray deer or a few blackberrys in autumn. Or am I completely wrong and is there a whole hidden world of gourmet delights waiting to be discovered in our forests and fells?

Don't think I'd take to the hills. You wouldn't even get blackberries (the fruit:D) up there. You might get frauchans but they wouldn't sustain you and a very short season. F'all sustaining plant life up there unless you're a grouse. The calories expended in getting a deer in such open country wouldn't make any sense, sheep might be a better choice. There might be the odd trout in the streams and loughs but you'd be so fricking cold that you wouldn't want to go anywhere near water. Food is probably going to be the last thing you think about up there as you suffer howling winds and mega chill factors.
In my humble opinion, anywhere above the 900m contour is best left to the deer and the ravens. See yah, I'm going to the farmlands.

Hal Emmerich

Could someone eat leaves?

slowburner

Kinda depends on what leaves!

Hal Emmerich

tree leaves....:o

slowburner

I don't know for sure, but I think the nutritional value of most leaves is very low.
Oaks are full of tannic acid - that would make you feel pretty bad I'd imagine.
Beech - dunno.
Ash - dunno.
Birch might be ok - the sap is supposed to have anti-cancer properties. Hazel - well if you can eat the nuts you can probably eat the leaves.
Willow - the source of salycilic acid (sp) (aspirin), too much of this could lead to internal bleeding.
Alder - dunno.
As to conifers, I think you can make a tea out of the needles of scot's pine which is supposed to be high in vitamin C.
Spruce (the forestry tree) dunno.
Big no-no is Yew, highly toxic.
I'm sure I am missing out loads of trees here, hopefully someone with more knowledge of this area will drop in

Hibrion

Hal Emmerich wrote: »

Could someone eat leaves?

Salad springs to mind

But seriously, there are a few plant leaves that are edible.

slowburner

For sure there are buckets of leaves you can eat in the summer. Emm, I think that's where most of our veggies come from. But what about the winter, are there any edible leaves, on trees or otherwise?

Doc Ruby

slowburner wrote: »

I don't know for sure, but I think the nutritional value of most leaves is very low.
Oaks are full of tannic acid - that would make you feel pretty bad I'd imagine.
Beech - dunno.
Ash - dunno.
Birch might be ok - the sap is supposed to have anti-cancer properties. Hazel - well if you can eat the nuts you can probably eat the leaves.
Willow - the source of salycilic acid (sp) (aspirin), too much of this could lead to internal bleeding.
Alder - dunno.
As to conifers, I think you can make a tea out of the needles of scot's pine which is supposed to be high in vitamin C.
Spruce (the forestry tree) dunno.
Big no-no is Yew, highly toxic.
I'm sure I am missing out loads of trees here, hopefully someone with more knowledge of this area will drop in

Pine is pretty good, you can brew a high vitamin C tea from the needles or just eat them as-is. The inner bark is edible in some types of pine, and makes for a good nutritious meal. You can also use the resin as glue or a fire starter.

Rabbits likewise are easy to catch, just lay out snares along their runs. You can eat birds of all sorts too, although its mostly the breast muscles that are worth the effort. One thing that people often overlook in this country, surprisingly, is the sea shore. There is a veritable bonanza of delicious animals such as shellfish, shrimp, crab and fish along almost every stretch of Irish coastline. If you can find a boat or something that floats, you're home free.

Its more than possible to survive in the Irish countryside I would say.

Hibrion

+1 for surviving in a sea side location.

Limpets, razor fish, and mussels can all be gathered with little effort; ok you'll need a snorkle for the mussels

Shore fishing is easy enough and if you're willing to eat a dogfish you definitely won't starve.

Crabs and lobsters are also easy to catch in rock pols with a bit of patience.

A fish trap in a small river is also a good way to catch fish in a survival situation.

If push comes to shove seals can also be eaten. But this would be an extreme situation.

slowburner

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Pine is pretty good, you can brew a high vitamin C tea from the needles or just eat them as-is. The inner bark is edible in some types of pine, and makes for a good nutritious meal. You can also use the resin as glue or a fire starter.

Rabbits likewise are easy to catch, just lay out snares along their runs. You can eat birds of all sorts too, although its mostly the breast muscles that are worth the effort. One thing that people often overlook in this country, surprisingly, is the sea shore. There is a veritable bonanza of delicious animals such as shellfish, shrimp, crab and fish along almost every stretch of Irish coastline. If you can find a boat or something that floats, you're home free.

Its more than possible to survive in the Irish countryside I would say.

Countryside - yes
Sea shore - definitely
Mountains - don't think so above a certain height at certain times of year

fodda

You and your neighbours would have to join up to defend what you have as hungry townies would overun you taking any and everything.

slowburner

fodda wrote: »

You and your neighbours would have to join up to defend what you have as hungry townies would overun you taking any and everything.

Yes indeed.

Builderfromhell

If it was possible to survive in hills and mountains there would be derelict cottages left from people who used to live there a hundred years ago.

If it is possible to easily live off the land then why did so many die in the famine?

I would stay in my rural dwelling, work with he local community and share our resources.

Might be no harm to practice living frugally for a while to get some experience.

Peoples survival strategies would differ widely depending on their situation. I couldn't see myself lasting long if I were in a sub-urban housing estate. But rural people help each other and have many survival skills as it is.

slowburner

Builderfromhell wrote: »

If it was possible to survive in hills and mountains there would be derelict cottages left from people who used to live there a hundred years ago.

If it is possible to easily live off the land then why did so many die in the famine?

I would stay in my rural dwelling, work with he local community and share our resources.

Might be no harm to practice living frugally for a while to get some experience.

Peoples survival strategies would differ widely depending on their situation. I couldn't see myself lasting long if I were in a sub-urban housing estate. But rural people help each other and have many survival skills as it is.

People died in the famine for a number of reasons, many political, some to do with diet.
In a survivalist situation you would presume there is a freedom to range far and wide - that luxury was not available to the folk who suffered in the great famine.

krissovo

Builderfromhell wrote: »

If it was possible to survive in hills and mountains there would be derelict cottages left from people who used to live there a hundred years ago.

If it is possible to easily live off the land then why did so many die in the famine?

The land can only give up so much food.

In a well prepared site that can farm arable and hold livestock you need about 3 to 5 acres with fertilizers and insecticide for a family to live off the land and another 4 to 6 acres for growing your fuel.

In a survival situation that same family would need around 30 to 50 acres for the land to produce enough food. This would be meat and edible wild plants.

In the hills you are looking at 300 acres of land if not more to produce enough food and that would be a mostly meat diet but will sustain you until things calm down.

At the coast you can reduce those numbers slightly with the additional food available.

If everyone in Ireland discovered bush craft then the land would not sustain the population in a survival situation its quite simple. However by practicing bush craft I increase my chances and I know that my family have a good chance.

Doc Ruby

krissovo wrote: »

In a well prepared site that can farm arable and hold livestock you need about 3 to 5 acres with fertilizers and insecticide for a family to live off the land and another 4 to 6 acres for growing your fuel.

In a survival situation that same family would need around 30 to 50 acres for the land to produce enough food. This would be meat and edible wild plants.

An acre of spuds will supply enough food for a family of four, to the best of my knowledge. Thats why the potato blight was so devastating, you had these small cropholders living almost completely off potatoes - also the reason the population was booming. It was supplemented with milk or butter, maybe meat once a week, but you don't need much land if you're prepared to accept a lower quality of life.

Builderfromhell wrote: »

If it was possible to survive in hills and mountains there would be derelict cottages left from people who used to live there a hundred years ago.

If it is possible to easily live off the land then why did so many die in the famine?

If the knowledge isn't there its just not there. The English had to bring in a man from Scotland during the 19th century to teach Claddagh fishermen how to smoke and preserve their catch. Anyone who knew that trick in previous generations had either left the country or been killed off. Some families still remember parts of what was once common knowledge, but even then its only vague and dim at best.

slowburner

Ireland: population 4,582,269 (2011 census)
Ireland: area 20,047,572 acres
Area/population = 4.38 acres per person

or looking at it another way;
If we were to presume that 60% of the total area of Ireland is productive (probably an overestimate?) this would give a total acreage available of 12,028,543

If a family of four needs around 11 acres for food and fuel (using Krissovo's figures which might be an underestimate?) the land could support 1,093,503 family units or a total population of 4,374,015

So using these optimistic figures, the island is already overpopulated by 208,254.

Discuss.

Doc Ruby

slowburner wrote: »

If a family of four needs around 11 acres for food and fuel (using Krissovo's figures which might be an underestimate?) the land could support 1,093,503 family units or a total population of 4,374,015

It was over 8 million back in the 1840s, and that was with much less effective farming methods, preservation or industrial infrastructure. Plus the country was exporting enormous quantities of food at the same time, some called it the breadbasket of the British empire.

slowburner

From here http://www.mapspictures.com/ireland/history/ireland_population.htm



The population of Ireland 1700-2000 numbers in millions

slowburner

There's a very good summary of the causes and effects of the famine of 1845 here http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1841.htm

The Census Commissioners in 1851 stated that, had the Famine not occurred, the population would have been 9,018,799

Could this island sustain such a population now?

fodda

Doc Ruby wrote: »

some called it the breadbasket of the British empire.

That's a new one.

fodda

slowburner wrote: »

There's a very good summary of the causes and effects of the famine of 1845 here http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1841.htm

Could this island sustain such a population now?

No cause of the way we live and a lot more land taken up with roads and industrial estates etc.

You have to realise how much of your life relies on oil and gas. Take this away and you will see total population collapse to pre famine levels.

slowburner

fodda wrote: »

No cause of the way we live and a lot more land taken up with roads and industrial estates etc.

You have to realise how much of your life relies on oil and gas. Take this away and you will see total population collapse to pre famine levels.

Absolutely.
Except that the population will crash way below pre famine levels - we're at 4.5 million now, it was around that figure in 1800. My guess is that the population would fall back to much earlier levels, something similar to the 18th C population of 2.5 million, if that.

fodda

slowburner wrote: »

Absolutely.
Except that the population will crash way below pre famine levels - we're at 4.5 million now, it was around that figure in 1800. My guess is that the population would fall back to much earlier levels, something similar to the 18th C population of 2.5 million, if that.

Well if the population was at the true figures banded around, it really is amazing how if the population was that hard done by they managed to increase by probably 4 times in less than 150 years:) Or is it that the population figures are distorted for some reason:)

slowburner

fodda wrote: »

Well if the population was at the true figures banded around, it really is amazing how if the population was that hard done by they managed to increase by probably 4 times in less than 150 years:) Or is it that the population figures are distorted for some reason:)

I don't think the figures are distorted.

fodda

slowburner wrote: »

I don't think the figures are distorted.

Then that was some repressed population, i dont think china has managed a 4 fold population increase in less than 150 years without being under any other country.

Off Topic !

Builderfromhell

Builderfromhell wrote: »

If it was possible to survive in hills and mountains there would be derelict cottages left from people who used to live there a hundred years ago.

If it is possible to easily live off the land then why did so many die in the famine?

I would stay in my rural dwelling, work with he local community and share our resources.

Might be no harm to practice living frugally for a while to get some experience.

Peoples survival strategies would differ widely depending on their situation. I couldn't see myself lasting long if I were in a sub-urban housing estate. But rural people help each other and have many survival skills as it is.

Didn't intend starting a famine discussion here. sorry about that.
Ijteresting discussion though, maybe could use it's own thread.

slowburner

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Didn't intend starting a famine discussion here. sorry about that.
Ijteresting discussion though, maybe could use it's own thread.

How is it off topic? We are merely discussing the capacity of this island for sustaining its population. If we look back into history for references, sure what harm, where else would you look?
And the famine was every bit a survivalist situation too.

fodda

slowburner wrote: »

How is it off topic? We are merely discussing the capacity of this island for sustaining its population. If we look back into history for references, sure what harm, where else would you look?
And the famine was every bit a survivalist situation too.

If those figures are correct -2.5 million to almost 9 million in 150 years that it incredable population increase. There was no shortage of food or anything to get that kind of increase. you would have to triple todays population increase per head of population and this isnt taken into account infant and child death rates and adult death rates which would be very high in those days.

Doc Ruby

fodda wrote: »

If those figures are correct -2.5 million to almost 9 million in 150 years that it incredable population increase. There was no shortage of food or anything to get that kind of increase. you would have to triple todays population increase per head of population and this isnt taken into account infant and child death rates and adult death rates which would be very high in those days.

Behold the magic of the humble and highly nutritious spud. Also note that developing countries have burgeoning populations, while developed countries have flat or negative population trends. There's a lot of factors involved I think.

In order for Ireland's population to drop to 2.5 million you'd need to have every piece of technology and knowledge accumulated over the past century removed, basically everything would have to vanish overnight leaving people shivering and naked, and the rest of the world would have to similarly collapse, which I can't see happening. Plus, if they could sustain double the population in the 1840s, it can certainly be done today.

In fact, a collapse scenario might well provide a massive population increase, if the examples of developing countries are anything to go by. People under stress don't just lay down and die, they breed like rabbits.

Anyway many new alternatives to fossil fuels are making themselves felt, look at what Desertec are doing for example, there's no shortage of energy in the world. And once you have the energy, you can produce everything else.

To my mind there is no extant or inevitable collapse en route.

fodda

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Behold the magic of the humble and highly nutritious spud. Also note that developing countries have burgeoning populations, while developed countries have flat or negative population trends. There's a lot of factors involved I think.

In order for Ireland's population to drop to 2.5 million you'd need to have every piece of technology and knowledge accumulated over the past century removed, basically everything would have to vanish overnight leaving people shivering and naked, and the rest of the world would have to similarly collapse, which I can't see happening. Plus, if they could sustain double the population in the 1840s, it can certainly be done today.

In fact, a collapse scenario might well provide a massive population increase, if the examples of developing countries are anything to go by. People under stress don't just lay down and die, they breed like rabbits.

Anyway many new alternatives to fossil fuels are making themselves felt, look at what Desertec are doing for example, there's no shortage of energy in the world. And once you have the energy, you can produce everything else.

To my mind there is no extant or inevitable collapse en route.

Doc there are many alternative and renewable energy sources becoming avaliable but they are minute in the amount of energy we are using from fossil fuel and there is no way they could take up the shortfall of fossil fuel disapearing.

Basically micky mouse countries like Ireland are well and truely in the shi-ite if they want the standard of living we have today because the energy isnt here and the money to pay for it isnt either.

Agriculture is a huge and one of the biggest users of fossil fuels and Irelands is also.

One example is fertiliser....without this and at the right price you get world wide famine. Ireland also needs it and besides vegetables it is also a major componant of the beef industry and animal feed together with fuel oil.

On and on.........

sheesh

Doc Ruby wrote: »

It was over 8 million back in the 1840s, and that was with much less effective farming methods, preservation or industrial infrastructure. Plus the country was exporting enormous quantities of food at the same time, some called it the breadbasket of the British empire.

it should be pointed out that the productivity of the land before the famine was quiet high supposedly not match until modern fertilizers were used.

back on topic: if there was some sort of 'european emergency' and we were stuck here there would be a significant die off of people after the first couple of weeks. with loss of drinking water and no food. come winter anybody without a fireplace or stove will probably not survive.

Doc Ruby

fodda wrote: »

Doc there are many alternative and renewable energy sources becoming avaliable but they are minute in the amount of energy we are using from fossil fuel and there is no way they could take up the shortfall of fossil fuel disapearing.

If you have a look at Desertec they maintain that covering 2% of the uninhabited portions of the Sahara with solar panels would supply all of the world's energy. I ran a few numbers myself and they seem to be correct.

You wouldn't literally do that mind you. Just getting across that renewables dwarf fossil fuels. And then we have Sustainable Energy Ireland saying we could supply all of our energy needs from onshore wind alone.

The way I see it, it will take 40+ years for fossil fuels to reach critical levels, its not going to vanish overnight. What people like Desertec are doing is slowly rolling out renewable alternatives over that timescale, which get more attractive as fossil fuels get more expensive. Governments around the world are doing similar - a wind farm with enough capacity to supply energy for 68,000 homes just got the green light not far from me here.

Don't worry lads, there's plenty of other ways that preparation can be invaluable, just ask those poor souls who passed over in the floods recently. It doesn't need to be the end of the world, just the end of your world.

fodda wrote: »

One example is fertiliser....without this and at the right price you get world wide famine.

There's nothing particular to fertiliser that means it must be derived from fossil fuels, its fairly straightforward to produce.

fodda

Hey Doc look i am def NOT a doom and gloom merchant, in fact quite the opposite, but there are facts which apply.

Oil running out......i dont know when but i do know in the past 10 years there must be another 3 billion people who have suddenly gained the wealth and demand the same resources as we had all to ourselves, so demand and supply means more demand then the price goes up........of course if you live in a banana republic with all around you in decline with many other probs.........then you aint got the cash anymore when prices get high.......then add to it (oil) getting in short supply and expensive to get out of the ground and you have a disaster for those countries whose tax take to run the country relies so much on oil usage.:)

Cover all desert in solar panels.......the idea has been around since i was a baby:) at least 50 years........problem is that it takes energy to push leccy down wires and it takes masses of energy to install and maintain those wires and you get huge losses of leccy from those wires the longer they are.........result is........it's not really viable..........unless businesses relocate nearer........oh dear that means not in Ireland......up sh-ite creek without a paddle:)

Fertiliser......sh-ite:).........In one end....out the other:D.....but the golden rule of physics is "you dont get more out than what you put in":).......this also applies to when you make it with gas or mine it or try to recover it from other sources like the sea or the air.........the only reason it is cheap from gas is because gas just burst out of the ground for relatively nowt until we have used most of the cheaply recoverable natural gas reserves in less than 40 years........40 years ago the UK switched over from towns gas made expensively from cheap coal to even cheaper natural gas from the North sea. Local coal merchant by us was so piffed off about it he stuck his head in the oven to commit suicide......after 30 mins he got fed up sat back and lit up a fag:eek:;)......havent seen him in a long while.:)

Where my mom lived in the 1950's the local farmers used to get sewage from the sewage works and spread it on the fields........read somewhere they still do this in countries where they cant afford bagged fertiliser.........what you doing in 5 years time.....i have a trailer on my car:)

Honestly without being doom and gloom unless you are a wealthy country in the very near future then your standard of living is going to be not what you are used to now.

eth0

and they are still building more gas power stations now so massive blackouts a few years down the line unless they give up this policy of not building nuclear plants or phasing out nuclear for political reasons

Doc Ruby

Fodda, if there's one thing I'm sure of its that they'll never run out of things to tax.

I'll just say I don't see it happening, in my opinion. I feel pretty comfortable about the prospects for the future. But its important that we learn and relearn the bushcrafting skills not just because things can go horribly wrong on different scales, but its feckin awesome as well.

fodda

I dont know what will happen just like anybody else but at least if it has made you think you are in a better situation than flapping about at the last minute.

psychward

ajhalpin wrote: »

Don't know if this has come up before but, if you had to take to the hills, (say to hide out from an invasion of ticked off european bureaucrats), where would you go and is it possible to survive off the land in Ireland? I mean there isn't exactly an abundance of wild food apart from the odd stray deer or a few blackberrys in autumn. Or am I completely wrong and is there a whole hidden world of gourmet delights waiting to be discovered in our forests and fells?

You dont' need to leave the comforts of home to eat well during a crisis. Just invite the neighbours in for dinner with promises of some hard to find luxury food from when we had it good while explaining that good neighbours have to stick together etc but just don't tell them that they are on the menu :pac:

kildare.17hmr

psychward wrote: »

You dont' need to leave the comforts of home to eat well during a crisis. Just invite the neighbours in for dinner with promises of some hard to find luxury food from when we had it good while explaining that good neighbours have to stick together etc but just don't tell them that they are on the menu :pac:

Your name suits ya well anyway:D