Hypocrisy in Northern Ireland - Burning Poppies??

woodoo

A few teenagers were arrested for burning poppies in Coleraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15563139

What about all the Irish Tri Colours burnt on the 12th of July in the same place and all over Northern Ireland.

Such Hypocrisy... or have i missed something??

seiphil

Didn't even think it was a crime to burn a poppy. Joke!

prettygurrly

those poppies represent not only english but the many thousands of irish that fought in WWI. I for one am very proud of the men that fought for me.

Burning tri-colours is totally different, it only represents one country, one nationality. Poppies are not political. It's a disgrace.

woodoo

prettygurrly wrote: »

Burning tri-colours is totally different, it only represents one country, one nationality. Poppies are not political. It's a disgrace.

Burning tricolours could be considered incitement to hatred. Its every bit as bad as burning a poppy imo.

prettygurrly

i didn't say i thought it was ok...i was saying its a totally different kettle of fish and therefore not hypocrisy.

dont agree with burning anyone's flag! they should have been arrested for burning the flag true

seiphil

prettygurrly wrote: »

those poppies represent not only english but the many thousands of irish that fought in WWI. I for one am very proud of the men that fought for me.

Burning tri-colours is totally different, it only represents one country, one nationality. Poppies are not political. It's a disgrace.

If I want to show respect for the people that fought for me I would be wearing a lily and not a poppy.

prettygurrly

the poppy is still the flower that represents the WW1 veterans. who you want to commemorate is not the question here.

woodoo

prettygurrly wrote: »

i didn't say i thought it was ok...i was saying its a totally different kettle of fish and therefore not hypocrisy.

dont agree with burning anyone's flag! they should have been arrested for burning the flag true

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1103/breaking37.html

It looks like they were arrested for incitement to hatred. Which is exactly what burning the tricolour is imo.

seiphil

prettygurrly wrote: »

the poppy is still the flower that represents the WW1 veterans. who you want to commemorate is not the question here.

But those Irish soldiers did not fight for Ireland. They fought for Britain. That Poppy also stands for the same people who have killed thousands of Irish over many of years.

Alopex

How is burning a poppy "incitement to hatred" - i would think that charge applies to encouraging others to hate minorities a?

So who is the victim here? Poppy Gardeners?

Every year bonfires are set up with irish flags in some areas and union flags in others. In both cases they often put up pictures of actual real people. These are on display for days before being burnt. How that is acceptable but burning a poppy isn't is beyond me. The message is that if you are a thug who sets up a bonfire to intimidate people it is ok and you won't face consequences but if you're a kid showing off to your mates on facebook you're a crim

The psni should have just given off to the kids and cautioned them. our taxes wasted on bringing them to court

woodoo

Alopex wrote: »

The psni should have just given off to the kids and cautioned them. our taxes wasted on bringing them to court

After this i would expect to see anyone burning a flag in NI arrested.

Alopex

woodoo wrote: »

After this i would expect to see anyone burning a flag in NI arrested.

that would also be utterly stupid and a waste of money

votecounts

Proper Irish people would never wear a poppie, never mind fighting for a foreign army that is responsible for the murder of numerous inncocent Irish people. Burn them away, end of.

V Eight

The teenagers responsible for the incident should have been ignored, the incident should have been ignored..... reporting the incident on the BBC gives the senario some form of legitimate protest....when it was likley just an attention seeking act by bored teenagers.

Hayte

The poppy doesn't represent the veterans of WW1. It represents the fallen in WW1. There is nothing to criticize, nothing to mock and nothing to hate in what it symbolizes. It transcends nationality and is a universal symbol of one of the few good things I can say about human beings which is that some are capable of sacrificing everything so that others need not suffer, need not be inconvenienced.

I suppose this liberty also extends to people who disrespect the very sacrifice that gave them the freedom to choose the life of a fool.

Desecrating a remembrance poppy doesn't make any sense. Theres nothing funny or clever about it, theres no point or criticism that you can make by doing it and its just, offensive really. I can't say I'm shocked but the pure unadulterated ignorance of it is depressing.

Desecrating a flag isn't something to be taken lightly either but it doesn't symbolize anything as universally good as the poppy. Flag burning can be used symbolize discontent with national policy, both domestic and foreign. I can see how it would make sense if there is legitimate grievance, even if there is no justification in riling up social tensions to make a point.

irishh_bob

woodoo wrote: »

Burning tricolours could be considered incitement to hatred. Its every bit as bad as burning a poppy imo.

both acts are incredibly obnoxious

woodoo

Hayte wrote: »

The poppy doesn't represent the veterans of WW1. It represents the fallen in WW1. There is nothing to criticize, nothing to mock and nothing to hate in what it symbolizes. It transcends nationality and is a universal symbol of one of the few good things I can say about human beings which is that some are capable of sacrificing everything so that others need not suffer, need not be inconvenienced.

I suppose this liberty also extends to people who disrespect the very sacrifice that gave them the freedom to choose the life of a fool.

Desecrating a remembrance poppy doesn't make any sense. Theres nothing funny or clever about it, theres no point or criticism that you can make by doing it and its just, offensive really. I can't say I'm shocked but the pure unadulterated ignorance of it is depressing.

Desecrating a flag isn't something to be taken lightly either but it doesn't symbolize anything as universally good as the poppy. Flag burning can be used symbolize discontent with national policy, both domestic and foreign. I can see how it would make sense if there is legitimate grievance, even if there is no justification in riling up social tensions to make a point.

In that case then burning the poppy couldn't be considered incitement to hatred if it commemorates the fallen of WW2. There is no nationality or section being targeted for hatred. Who is being incited?

irishh_bob

votecounts wrote: »

Proper Irish people would never wear a poppie, never mind fighting for a foreign army that is responsible for the murder of numerous inncocent Irish people. Burn them away, end of.

i dont agree with this , i think those who fought against germany in ww1 and ww2 were heroes who were on the side of right

RichieC

Nobody should be arrested for burning either the tri colour, the poppy, or the union flag for that matter...

Hayte

woodoo wrote: »

In that case then burning the poppy couldn't be considered incitement to hatred if it commemorates the fallen of WW2. There is no nationality or section being targeted for hatred. Who is being incited?

Hayte

RichieC wrote: »

Nobody should be arrested for burning either the tri colour, the poppy, or the union flag for that matter...

I agree. But really, when it comes to protected speech, just because you can say something, doesn't mean you should. I'm equally uncomfortable about the idea of society tolerating action without thought to consequence.

RGDATA!

votecounts wrote: »

Proper Irish people would never wear a poppie, never mind fighting for a foreign army that is responsible for the murder of numerous inncocent Irish people. Burn them away, end of.

thanks for disabusing me of the notion that I am a proper Irish person.

Roll on the day when just 'being an idiot' is a criminal offence.
The flag issue is so sensitive in NI that they barely ever use them on any building. Burning flags IS wrong but poppies is worse. If WW2 hadn't happened, ROI wouldn't exist so they should be grateful the troops were off fighting.

KeithAFC

A non story really.

nesf

votecounts wrote: »

Proper Irish people would never wear a poppie, never mind fighting for a foreign army that is responsible for the murder of numerous inncocent Irish people. Burn them away, end of.

Less of the crap with calling people on your side proper Irish people, thanks.

partyguinness

Sorry people, wearing the poppy is not the issue here for the OP.

The fact that it is perfectly acceptable to place Irish tricolours on top of bonfires on July 12th and set them on fire with gay abandonment but burning a piece of plastic to commemorate Britain's historical collective guilt gets you arrested...say no more...:rolleyes:

dara.obriain

nesf wrote: »

Less of the crap with calling people on your side proper Irish people, thanks.

the british army is a symbol of brutality and murder in this country. the poppy is a symbol of the british army. no irishman with an iota of self-respect would wear one.

KeithAFC

dara.obriain wrote: »

the british army is a symbol of brutality and murder in this country. the poppy is a symbol of the british army. no irishman with an iota of self-respect would wear one.

It is mostly worn by Ulstermen and women. It isn't a big deal. Some Irish people wear it too. Some people want to pay respect to the war dead. I think that is all it is about.

jam_mac_jam

dara.obriain wrote: »

the british army is a symbol of brutality and murder in this country. the poppy is a symbol of the british army. no irishman with an iota of self-respect would wear one.

Maybe they respect their grandfathers or other relatives who fought for that army. There were plenty of "proper" Irish men who fought in the British army and if people want to wear one to show respect then its not for you to say they are less Irish than anyone else.

glic71rods46t0

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Maybe they respect their grandfathers or other relatives who fought for that army. There were plenty of "proper" Irish men who fought in the British army and if people want to wear one to show respect then its not for you to say they are less Irish than anyone else.

He is entitled to express his opinion on what he considers to be "proper Irish".
Depends on your definition of Irish or proper Irish.
I am thankful that I live in country where its ok to express my opinions without fear fro my safety. I'm sure our forefathers in 1916 would have been glad of such freedoms

nesf

dara.obriain wrote: »

the british army is a symbol of brutality and murder in this country. the poppy is a symbol of the british army. no irishman with an iota of self-respect would wear one.

A lot of Irish people served in the British army in WW1, it's perfectly legitimate to wear it to commemorate their memory.

nesf

ds2bxmrkhu4pnf wrote: »

He is entitled to express his opinion on what he considers to be "proper Irish".
Depends on your definition of Irish or proper Irish.
I am thankful that I live in country where its ok to express my opinions without fear fro my safety. I'm sure our forefathers in 1916 would have been glad of such freedoms

Calling your side "proper Irish" is trolling pure and simple. There's no freedom of speech on this website either.

glic71rods46t0

nesf wrote: »

Calling your side "proper Irish" is trolling pure and simple. There's no freedom of speech on this website either.

Its a political opinion. Your last sentence has a whiff of "its my ball so my rules" nonsense about it. A politics forum should allow political discussion of all colours and opinions. Pretty small minded if it doesn't.

LondonIrish90

partyguinness wrote: »

to commemorate Britain's historical collective guilt gets you arrested...say no more...:rolleyes:

No collective guilt from the British people at this time of the year. In their millions they wear their poppies and attend their memorial cceremonies with dignity and pride. Its a shame you lowered yourself to such a level with that wildly inaccurate description of this obviously sad yet beautifully observed* time of the year.

* except some at celtic park who erupt into fits of anger at this time of the year, often with classless results. However, as Churchill once said: "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life".

Wolfe Tone

The men and women I commemorate, who fought on my behalf fought for neither King nor Kaiser but Ireland.

This is a joke, nothing happens over the tons of tricolors burned every year. I doubt someone who burned a Lily would be arrested. Thats the Brits for you eh?

ardmacha

This episode and the general sh|t stirring by poppy wearers at this time of year is indicative of how little has changed in the North. As noted by other posters anything from tricolours to GAA flags are routinely burned without any action by police whatsoever. A paper poppy is just that and they generally end up in the bin, burning it is neither here nor there, although it provides heat, which is some use.

The most insidious thing is the myth peddled by many that somehow poppies are not political. An emblem associated with British militarism in Ireland is clearly a provocative symbol given that this country has been on the receiving end of that military action and indeed has been the longest recipient of it. The imperial superiority continues, our symbols are "normal", yours on the other hand are dangerous. The cringing hat tipping on this matter in Ireland is sickening.

nesf

ds2bxmrkhu4pnf wrote: »

Its a political opinion. Your last sentence has a whiff of "its my ball so my rules" nonsense about it. A politics forum should allow political discussion of all colours and opinions. Pretty small minded if it doesn't.

We allow a broad range of opinions but some are inflammatory so they are not welcome. Same as if I called SF supporters idiots, sure it's a political opinion but it's hardly a constructive one now is it?

If you want a free-for-all hop over to Politics.ie, you may prefer it there.

Jimoslimos

prettygurrly wrote: »

those poppies represent not only english but the many thousands of irish that fought in WWI. I for one am very proud of the men that fought for me.

Burning tri-colours is totally different, it only represents one country, one nationality. Poppies are not political. It's a disgrace.

I disagree, since poppies are used not only for those killed in WWI and WWII but also represent fallen soldiers in current conflicts then they are very political. They also only represent one side in any war - so you can't call the poppy an apolitical symbol.

Were these guys crass to do something like this? - Yes
Is the burning of tricolours pretty much the same? - Yes
Should either side be prosecuted for such acts? Probably not?

One point nobody seems to have picked up on, to burn the poppy they must have had to purchase then - therefore contributing towards the good work of the British Legion:D

Wolfe Tone

In the six counties, without a doubt, the poppy is a political symbol. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

blahfckingblah

hmm the way i see it, they were teenagers they shouldnt have been arrested just told off by their parents as they would have in any other NORMAL society. on the other hand what they done could be seen as offensive as could burning the tricolour which is why neither should be done.

it really shouldnt be a problem.. if the poppy doesnt represent them they should ignore it or wear a lilly. It is seen as a British establishment thing so i guess it was a form of rebellion like a lot of teens do, you have all done something stupid as a teen yourselves

nesf

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

In the six counties, without a doubt, the poppy is a political symbol. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

It's a good deal more complex in the South though. Mainly because we lack Unionists pushing them in our faces.

Alopex

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

In the six counties, without that for mosta doubt, the poppy is a political symbol. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

depends what you mean by political really. thousunds wear them with no interest in politics. is an irish flag political on st patricks day? personally I don't think so. its in the same vein as

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

In the six counties, without a doubt, the poppy is a political symbol. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

So what if it is? It is in remembrance to our fallen volunteers. People in Ulster should be proud to wear the poppy.

partyguinness

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

No collective guilt from the British people at this time of the year. In their millions they wear their poppies and attend their memorial cceremonies with dignity and pride. Its a shame you lowered yourself to such a level with that wildly inaccurate description of this obviously sad yet beautifully observed* time of the year.

* except some at celtic park who erupt into fits of anger at this time of the year, often with classless results. However, as Churchill once said: "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life".

Well..you are certainly the conforming and and obedient type...good for you...:rolleyes:..proper cannon fodder

It says more about the fragile and insecure ego of the British that they feel this compulsion to wear pieces of plastic to feel better about themsleves and to ease their guilt for murdering thousands of their own citizens. Plus it keeps support for current Army high and dissent muted. Sad for you that you are a puppet in the game and cannot see it.

I find it quite pitiful and somewaht disrespectful to the actual dead who were slaughtered in their thousand's for NOTHING....but you can't admit that can you?

It was state sanctioned murder on a disgusting and unprecedented scale (on all sides I hasten to add). The British just cannot stomach that fact and they hide behind this poppy charade.

It is pathetic.

ps Quoting? Churchill said a lot of things and was a failure of a politician...but again if it makes you feel better...good for you.

I am actually giving ther British too much credit. Most I meet (sorry everyone I have met) look at me with blank faces when I ask what WW1 was about...the propaganda has worked. I live in England.

Wolfe Tone

nesf wrote: »

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

In the six counties, without a doubt, the poppy is a political symbol. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

It's a good deal more complex in the South though. Mainly because we lack Unionists pushing them in our faces.

Not really.

You get some folk(our friend Martin would call them west brits) wearing poppies, who wax lyrical about how those British soldiers who fought for Britain 'died for us', yet never have a thing to say about Irish patriots, you wont see them with Lilys.

It is a political symbol, it commemorates british soldiers, wether thats Paddy who died at the Somme or the Brits who ravaged Ireland during the tan war or the sectarian nasties who did so during the troubles... I have no respect for Irish people who commemorate those people and 'look after' ex British servicemen by buying poppies... Your rarely see those people wearing Lilys or at commemorations for Irish patriots. With that in mind its apparant that its not truly about commemorating Irish dead. If it was they wouldnt ignore Irish patriots, or insult them by glorifying the deaths of their enemy.

tayto lover

Only sad people burn anything with the intention of causing annoyance, anger and disgust to the other side. The people who engage in acts like this just want to keep the hatred going. Sad really.

southsiderosie

prettygurrly wrote: »

those poppies represent not only english but the many thousands of irish that fought in WWI. I for one am very proud of the men that fought for me.

Burning tri-colours is totally different, it only represents one country, one nationality. Poppies are not political. It's a disgrace.

Poppies are absolutely political, whether in the North or in London. Funny that the BBC reported in this, given the annual kerfluffle about who wears a poppy on air, who does not, and how early to start wearing it.

tayto lover

southsiderosie wrote: »

Poppies are absolutely political, whether in the North or in London. Funny that the BBC reported in this, given the annual kerfluffle about who wears a poppy on air, who does not, and how early to start wearing it.

AND people let things like that annoy them ?
If so they have little to worry about.

Alopex

tayto lover wrote: »

Only sad people burn anything with the intention of causing annoyance, anger and disgust to the other side. The people who engage in acts like this just want to keep the hatred going. Sad really.

they're a bunch of kids having a laugh and trying to be the man. Its really nothing compared to what goes on up here around the loyalist and republican bonfires.

what a hypersensitive people we have become. no one got hurt here.

partyguinness

prettygurrly wrote: »

those poppies represent not only english but the many thousands of irish that fought in WWI. I for one am very proud of the men that fought for me.

Burning tri-colours is totally different, it only represents one country, one nationality. Poppies are not political. It's a disgrace.

Oh dear...what history book are you reading from...that statement is..well ignorant is the most polite word I can think of and...well...blonde.

They did not fight for "you". They fought for a foreign army for a foreign King in an emperial adventure. They did not fight for Ireland. They were clearly brave and died terribly but lets not blur the facts here.

LondonIrish90

partyguinness wrote: »

Well..you are certainly the conforming and and obedient type...good for you...:rolleyes:..proper cannon fodder

It says more about the fragile and insecure ego of the British that they feel this compulsion to wear pieces of plastic to feel better about themsleves and to ease their guilt for murdering thousands of their own citizens. Plus it keeps support for current Army high and dissent muted. Sad for you that you are a puppet in the game and cannot see it.

I find it quite pitiful and somewaht disrespectful to the actual dead who were slaughtered in their thousand's for NOTHING....but you can't admit that can you?

It was state sanctioned murder on a disgusting and unprecedented scale (on all sides I hasten to add). The British just cannot stomach that fact and they hide behind this poppy charade.

It is pathetic.

ps Quoting Churchill said a lot of things and was a failure of a politician...but again if it makes you feel better...good for you.

ps I am actually giving ther British too much credit. Most I meet look at me with blank faces when I ask what WW1 was about...the propaganda has worked. I live in England.

I'll break down your posts into the multiple points you make tomorrow at some point and try and answer, for some of it at least. For other parts I cannot really understand what you are trying to say. Your aggressive tone isn't needed and doesn't help make you any more coherant. And if there is one thing you are lacking a little it is coherance.

I will take you up on the point about the First World War while I am here though. I agree with you that it was futile (I agree with nothing else of what you posted, which for the most part was utter drivel) but if anything that makes wearing the poppy all the more poignant and important.

You are clearly very emotional about this and love your country. You have joined an Irish republican boards group. I'm sure the tricolour flag and the easter lily mean much to you. Would I automatically call you fragile and insecure because of this? No, you are not necessarily. Surely you will admit if I am a puppet (I know far more about war and warfare than you do, of that I am confident) for the militaristic causes of Britain than you are as much a puppet for Irish Republican groups?