Sold crashed car without airbags - Next course of action?

thom119

Not sure if this is the correct forum to post in / allowed, please feel free to delete or move mods

So, I bought a car last November from a dealership in the santry area.
I just brought the car for a first service and afterwards when I spoke to the mechanic he informed me the car was badly crashed. All airbags were deployed upon the crash and never replaced. The bulb on the dash was also removed. I've been driving around for the past year without airbags.

I specifically asked when buying the car if it was ever involved in an accident and was told it was not. My dad was with me when buying the car and can confirm this.

I was literally just informed of this an hour ago and was wondering what you boardsies would advice to be the next course of action.
Who should I contact first? (dealership, gardai, solicitor or insurance company)

Is there any need to contact my insurance company over this issue?
If this is a civil matter should I still submit a report to the gardai?

Would there be any point in even contacting the dealership or should I let my solicitor deal with them?
To be honest, I'd absolutely love to put this dealership out of business. I believe what they did is absolutely disgraceful. Myself or any other passengers I've carried over the last year could have been killed of seriously injured in the event of a crash.

*I am not naming and shaming the dealership under any circumstance

Thanks lads

Bigus

I think the dealership should be first point of call "they may have been unaware of the state of the car if it was traded in in that condition"
Nothing less than a full refund if they plead this.

alias no.9

Straight to a solicitor, under no circumstances enter SIMI arbitration, they are a vested interest, not an independent broker. The time elapsed since buying the car may work against you.

CiniO

Bigus wrote: »

I think the dealership should be first point of call "they may have been unaware of the state of the car if it was traded in in that condition"
Nothing less than a full refund if they plead this.

They may have been unaware of missing airbags and car being badly crashed in the past?????/

Jesus - who do you think they are.
If they call them selves "car dealer" then they should be professionals about cars.
In this case you don't even need a professional. Missing airbags and car badly crashed can be observed by an amateur.

It's kinda like you went to the butchers, and he would sell you a green meat.
Would you be saying as well that he could have been not aware that beef is normally red, not green?

Bigus

CiniO wrote: »

They may have been unaware of missing airbags and car being badly crashed in the past?????/

Jesus - who do you think they are.
If they call them selves "car dealer" then they should be professionals about cars.
In this case you don't even need a professional. Missing airbags and car badly crashed can be observed by an amateur.

It's kinda like you went to the butchers, and he would sell you a green meat.
Would you be saying as well that he could have been not aware that beef is normally red, not green?

Thats why i used " quotation marks"
If the op wants his money back and a quick solution this might be the way to approach the situation.

In the past this is what clockers used to do , write a cheque refund straight away,when found out .

Effectively the op is car-less now as he shouldn't be driving around with the knowledge the airbags are missing.

Retribution would be great but the op needs either a replacement car or money back straight away not a long drawn out court case and the chance the dealer could wind up the company in the meantime.

Not fair or idealistic but a refund would be best scenario in the real world.

mickdw

A year has passed since purchase. This may cause you a problem as they could try to claim that you repaired it this way after an accident you had yourself.

You need to get some history on the car. Do a history check - Motorcheck guy posts on here and might help you dig out the details personally. If that check revealed crash damage prior to your ownership, that will be a big help to you.

L-M

As my father always said "I don't mind buying a crashed car, as long as it was repaired right".

Your car obviously wasn't repaired right.

Was the NCT done whilst in the garage you purchased it? If so, I'd be asking how it passed the NCT without the airbag light working.

It's very easy spot a car that's been crashed/repaired, I would not accept this as an excuse.

Find out if the car traded the car in or purchased it out right, if it was the latter I'd be somewhat more concerned.

Act fast, but plan how you are going to act. Don't go running into the showroom shouting at roaring at the salespeople.

thom119

Thanks for the replies guys,
I think the best course of action is to go get advice from a solicitor tomorrow morning. If I'm going to go down the legal route would a motorcheck report be sufficient to prove the car was crashed before i bought it?

With regards to the NCT, the car passed an NCT re-test for visual defects the day before I bought it and I have the test certificate in the car.
Surely they should have noticed the car had no airbag? Or the bulb on the dash was removed?

Should I report this incidence to my insurance company? Is it of any relevance to them?

slimjimmc

Yes, you should certainly report it to your insurer. The car is not what the insurer expected as and it may also call the car's integrity into question. I imagine those would be important risk factors for any insurer.

L-M

thom119 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys,
I think the best course of action is to go get advice from a solicitor tomorrow morning. If I'm going to go down the legal route would a motorcheck report be sufficient to prove the car was crashed before i bought it?

With regards to the NCT, the car passed an NCT re-test for visual defects the day before I bought it and I have the test certificate in the car.
Surely they should have noticed the car had no airbag? Or the bulb on the dash was removed?

Should I report this incidence to my insurance company? Is it of any relevance to them?

They should of noticed, at least you know it's not unsafe structurally... That's if you trust NCTS.

If you have the white sheet along with the cert, have a look at "No. of inspections" and see how many is there.

Owen

Most airbags can be replaced by a 4 Ohm resistor, that's enough to fool the ECU into thinking they're fitted.

Mr Benevolent

Owen wrote: »

Most airbags can be replaced by a 4 Ohm resistor, that's enough to fool the ECU into thinking they're fitted.

So how do you prove they are in the car?

thom119

Limerick man wrote: »

They should of noticed, at least you know it's not unsafe structurally... That's if you trust NCTS.

If you have the white sheet along with the cert, have a look at "No. of inspections" and see how many is there.

Just got the white sheet, up top it says there were 2 inspections.
To be honest when i bought the car I had a lot of faith in the NCT, and that was before I started reading this boards forum.
The fact it passed a couple of days before I bought it was a big selling point for me...how very wrong i was!

Pov06

thom119 wrote: »

Just got the white sheet, up top it says there were 2 inspections.
To be honest when i bought the car I had a lot of faith in the NCT, and that was before I started reading this boards forum.
The fact it passed a couple of days before I bought it was a big selling point for me...how very wrong i was!

To be honest the NCT means nothing with dealers these days. Dealers themselves know people who they can pay to get the car through no problem.

The thing that shows this will happen is when it says on an ad something like "car will come with a new NCT once you buy it". Suspicious right? How they just happen to know it WILL pass etc.. Obviously it's possible but unlikely.

trepasers

Dont mean to hijack the thread but just wondering what's the easiest way to check if the car has all its air-bags....I bought a car similar to the one stated above and am afraid that one of the air bags (if not more ) is missing

L-M

trepasers wrote: »

Dont mean to hijack the thread but just wondering what's the easiest way to check if the car has all its air-bags....I bought a car similar to the one stated above and am afraid that one of the air bags (if not more ) is missing

No way to yourself really. You could get it scanned for faults and see does anything show up, also check if your airbag light is working.

unkel

Selling a car knowing it doesn't have airbags anymore is criminal. Go to the Gardai, to report this crime. They will be able to check when the car was crashed (provided it is in their PULSE system)

And do not drive your car anymore and notify your insurance company asap. What is the car (year, make, model)?

mickdw

Pov06 wrote: »

The thing that shows this will happen is when it says on an ad something like "car will come with a new NCT once you buy it". Suspicious right? How they just happen to know it WILL pass etc.. Obviously it's possible but unlikely.

Thats a silly statement. They are saying that they will get it through - as in whatever it needs to pass. It would be a very poor car that couldnt be got through.

I do agree though that an NCT that is arranged by a dealer might not be as reliable as one you would have carried out yourself

scotty_irish

trepasers wrote: »

Dont mean to hijack the thread but just wondering what's the easiest way to check if the car has all its air-bags....I bought a car similar to the one stated above and am afraid that one of the air bags (if not more ) is missing

crashing it tends to determine if they're working properly!

trepasers

could you go after a private seller regarding missing airbags ??

thom119

unkel wrote: »

Selling a car knowing it doesn't have airbags anymore is criminal. Go to the Gardai, to report this crime. They will be able to check when the car was crashed (provided it is in their PULSE system)

And do not drive your car anymore and notify your insurance company asap. What is the car (year, make, model)?

I asked a garda for advice there a while ago. I told him the story I told you lads and he said it was a civil matter and to contact a solicitor. I thought he might've at least taken a statement from me as I thought it was a criminal offence.

I brought the car home from the garage and i'm not planning on making any trips in it. I'll give the insurance co. a call in the morning and tell them the story and that i will be contacting a solicitor.

It's a '00 VW Golf, 1.4L

I'll keep ye updated

jhud

Someone bought from a dealer near me and the car was just traded in. They bought the car for cash and later had the car pulling to the left so went to get tracking done he was told that the car was written off and repaired but not very well. On further inspection of car found scrapped sheets in glove box for uk and the car was imported here and traded for a new car. Owner had to get solicitor to get his money back off the dealer. You should find out if it was imported as well.

Hope this helps but the owner didnt have the car too long. You having the car a year is a worry hope it works out for you best of luck.

Fishtits

unkel wrote: »

Selling a car knowing it doesn't have airbags anymore is criminal.

Rant On!

Prove it... :rolleyes: (Act #?, Statute#?, burden of proof?)

Of course, this being Ireland such an act would not actually be criminal so the "perp" will as usual "walk"

When will we (the proletariat ) actually manage to have our laws reformed to punish the protected classes (business folk, bankers etc ...those who historically influenced said laws) for their crimes.

Sorry for the Sophomoric Thread Drift, its been one of those nights...

Back on topic
OP, talk to a Solicitor, explain what happened, and listen to the advice/options you're given.

THEN decide what you want to do.

fishtits.

mickdw

Remember, even a perfectly good 00 1.4 golf is not worth alot. Sure you must chase them but dont end up so far down that road that you will spend more than the value of the car on solicitors etc.

unkel

thom119 wrote: »

I asked a garda for advice there a while ago. I told him the story I told you lads and he said it was a civil matter

I'm usually the first on here to tell people not to bother calling the guards because it's a civil matter (like clocked cars, people giving false details about cars they're selling, car crashes, etc. etc.)

This is different. A dealer selling a car knowing the main safety system is disabled is very much like a butcher knowingly selling poisoned meat (as someone stated). It is NOT a civil matter, it is a criminal one. I suggest you try talking to another Garda, as it seems the one you talked to didn't pay too much attention while he was in Templemore...

thom119

mickdw wrote: »

Remember, even a perfectly good 00 1.4 golf is not worth alot. Sure you must chase them but dont end up so far down that road that you will spend more than the value of the car on solicitors etc.

I know the car isn't worth a significant amount of money, but right now it also feels like a matter or principal.
I've been driving around for the past year with a very unsafe car. The potential for serious injury or fatality has been very high. Not only my safety but the safety of my passengers have been at risk.

And unkel, i'll try talking to another garda after the solicitors tomorrow. Also, if anyone could PM me details of one that specialises in this area i'd really appreciate it.

darg

unkel wrote: »

I'm usually the first on here to tell people not to bother calling the guards because it's a civil matter (like clocked cars, people giving false details about cars they're selling, car crashes, etc. etc.)

This is different. A dealer selling a car knowing the main safety system is disabled is very much like a butcher knowingly selling poisoned meat (as someone stated). It is NOT a civil matter, it is a criminal one. I suggest you try talking to another Garda, as it seems the one you talked to didn't pay too much attention while he was in Templemore...

Can you quote the criminal legislation relevant to the OP?

slimjimmc

unkel wrote: »

I'm usually the first on here to tell people not to bother calling the guards because it's a civil matter (like clocked cars, people giving false details about cars they're selling, car crashes, etc. etc.)

This is different. A dealer selling a car knowing the main safety system is disabled is very much like a butcher knowingly selling poisoned meat (as someone stated). It is NOT a civil matter, it is a criminal one. I suggest you try talking to another Garda, as it seems the one you talked to didn't pay too much attention while he was in Templemore...

While air-bags are indeed an important supplementary safety system the lack of a legislative requirement for them in the EU clearly indicates that none of the EU members considers them to be the main safety system on par with tyres, brakes and seatbelts.

It is however an offence to sell a car to the public if the car is in such a condition as to render it a danger to the public including the car's occupants. You'll have to make a very strong argument to claim that the absence of air-bags makes a car unsafe because at present it's just no more dangerous than any other car that doesn't have air-bags fitted. Maybe that Garda did pay attention and knows his stuff afterall?

I agree that selling a car with a disabled air-bag system should be a criminal matter, I have serious doubts that it currently is so. What is that makes you so sure it is?

JP 1800

It may not be a European legislation but the sale of the car can be considered contrary to the Sale of Goods act 1980 where the car was not as described. Personally I think this surmounts to fraud on behalf of the dealer.

corktina

I would tell the dealer you want all your money back instantly or you will sue the bollix off him for putting you at risk. Any arguement or delay, down the solicitor instantly.

opinion guy

corktina wrote: »

I would tell the dealer you want all your money back instantly or you will sue the bollix off him for putting you at risk. Any arguement or delay, down the solicitor instantly.

To be honest I would at least talk to a solicitor first. Get him to contact dealer.
If you do go to dealer, don't go on your own - bring somebody with you as a witness. If you go there on your own, this guy cold claim anything - given we know he is ruthlessly unscrupulous already.

I also think try another garda on this.

slimjimmc

JP 1800 wrote: »

It may not be a European legislation but the sale of the car can be considered contrary to the Sale of Goods act 1980 where the car was not as described. Personally I think this surmounts to fraud on behalf of the dealer.

Selling something which is not as described is not an offence under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980, but it is an offence to restrict the consumer's right to redress. Of course the OP would have to prove such a claim (most likely to a civil court) that the air-bags were missing when he purchased the car and not removed in the intervening year while the car was in his possession.

johnos1984

slimjimmc wrote: »

Selling something which is not as described is not an offence under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980,

It is an offence under the Consumer Protection act 2007 in this case I'd wager

Under the act it is an offence for any retailer or professional to make a false or misleading claim about goods, services and prices. It is also an offence to sell goods which bear a false or misleading description.

Selling a car with airbags that doesn't have them is an offence going on that much

slimjimmc

johnos1984 wrote: »

It is an offence under the Consumer Protection act 2007 in this case I'd wager



Selling a car with airbags that doesn't have them is an offence going on that much

Agreed, it could very well be under sections 43 and 46 but you'd have to prove you were mislead by the dealer. The onus would be on you to prove your case unlike a dangerous car scenario where the onus is on the dealer to prove the car was safe when sold. That could be a hard thing to do if you've only discovered the problem 1 year down the road.

L-M

Wait...

It's a 00 Golf?

Is there airbag still in the steering wheel? It's also a case of popping off the passenger side cover to see if the "bag" is still inside there. Bar that and two in the seats, I don't think there are many more

johnos1984

slimjimmc wrote: »

Agreed, it could very well be under sections 43 and 46 but you'd have to prove you were mislead by the dealer. The onus would be on you to prove your case unlike a dangerous car scenario where the onus is on the dealer to prove the car was safe when sold. That could be a hard thing to do if you've only discovered the problem 1 year down the road.

Very true.

I'm with LM on this though.


IIRC the airbag system in a 00 Golf has the cover stuck to the bag itself on the steering wheel and dash board. If the airbags went off this gets ripped.

The cover cannot be bought seperately to teh bag so how come they are their or the OP didn't notice the tears and or lack of bags

Bigus

thom119 wrote: »

I know the car isn't worth a significant amount of money, but right now it also feels like a matter or principal.
I've been driving around for the past year with a very unsafe car. The potential for serious injury or fatality has been very high. Not only my safety but the safety of my passengers have been at risk.

And unkel, i'll try talking to another garda after the solicitors tomorrow. Also, if anyone could PM me details of one that specialises in this area i'd really appreciate it.

Principal is going to cost YOU money. You've got good advice here but won't listen to it.
A solicitor is not the law, nor law enforcement so listen to what the Garda said.

Best result a solicitor will get you is a refund and nothing more, whether you like it or not.

What extra damages could you sue for ?embarrassment ? compensation for what MIGHT have happened ? cop on

As for the butcher selling green meat .... a butcher doesn't take trade ins so he has no defense, whereas the dealer may well have not known about the lack of airbags, at least a Judge would believe him. Take your refund if offered and move on.

But wait you've no chance of a refund when you haven't even started to ask for one!

Post this over on the Legal forum if you don't believe the lads here

oregano

A customer of mine had an issue with his airbag system. The car was a Japanese import and a new controller unit was nigh on impossible to get. He had the controller taken out, effectively having no airbags. His SRS light on the dash for some reason did not glow as brightly as the other lights do on the dash. He forgot about all this, did an NCT a few months back. Failed on a tyre and something else petty. Point is, that car now has an NCT, with no envelopes being passed to anyone. The current owner knows about the airbags, and got it for a song for this reason.

In no way am I defending the guys who sold the OP this Golf, my point is purely that I doubt NCT check that the airbags can deploy. And if they can't/don't check this, perhaps they should.

(insert name)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0013.html#sec13

Darsad

Op no matter what this is going to cost you! If you go the legal route you will need independent reports etc and will drag on and on . Bear in mind you have had a year out of the car which is now nearly 12 yrs old.
Why not give the garage an opportunity to rectify the situation first before incurring serious costs, phone him then folluow up with a letter as others have said he may have been unaware of the issue. Maybe the airbag system can be reactivated with a minor repair as there is obviously airbags fitted otherwise you would have big holes in the dash and steering wheel. Many on here seem to hate the motor ind and will tell you to go for the jugular like most things in life if you initially take a calm common sense approach your more likely to get the desired / acceptable outcome !

chicken fingers

I love the title "sold crashed car without airbags"... how the action that happened is that you were sold this car. The action that happened was that you "bought crashed car without airbags", and it says something about your mentality.

alias no.9

chicken fingers wrote: »

I love the title "sold crashed car without airbags"... how the action that happened is that you were sold this car. The action that happened was that you "bought crashed car without airbags", and it says something about your mentality.

I think that's a little unfair on the op who may have been somewhat naive in thinking it was worth the premium price, that dealers charge compared to private sales for such an old car, to have the peace of mind that they were dealing with a professional and the trust and integrity that is supposed to bring. Rightly or wrongly, the general public put their trust in motor trade professionals. IIRC the op even asked the dealer straight out if the car had been crashed and was told no.

Sunnyisland

chicken fingers wrote: »

I love the title "sold crashed car without airbags"... how the action that happened is that you were sold this car. The action that happened was that you "bought crashed car without airbags", and it says something about your mentality.

How many people here or anywhere check to see if the airbags are actually in the vehicle (said in a garda tone)

-Chris-

realies wrote: »

How many people here or anywhere check to see if the airbags are actually in the vehicle (said in a garda tone)

I'd guess neither buyers, nor dealers, would check a car for airbags in any more detail than just checking if there are any lights lit up on the dash.

chicken fingers

Missing the point.
The very fact that he was sold a car, rather than bought a car, in his mind, shows something about how he feels, as a buyer, and I can empathise with how he feels cheated.