Student fees protest-Don't Agree...

p1akuw47h5r3it

E-mail from Ed Leamy:

Dear All,

On February 21st during the final week of campaigning in Election 2011 then Labour Party Spokesperson on Education and current Education Minister Ruairí Quinn publically signed a pledge on behalf of the Labour Party stating

“I, Ruairi Quinn, Education Spokesperson for the Labour Party hereby pledge that if elected, we will oppose and campaign against any new form of third level fees including student loans, graduate taxes and any further increase in the Student Contribution.

Furthermore, we pledge to use our position in Dáil Éireann to protect the Higher Education Maintenance Grant from any and all cuts. This Grant is often the only source of funding students have to support their studies.

If the State and the Government are to truly cherish all the children of the country equally, then this Grant must be supported and we will not support any Government that fails in this regard.”

The following day (February 22nd) party leader and current Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore TD also signed the pledge, publically re-affirming the Labour Party’s commitment on 3rd level fees.
Fine Gael also made a strong commitment on education in its election manifesto, stating that the party would not increase 3rd level fees further.

“We will not increase the student registration fee further. Instead, we will pursue greater pay and non-pay efficiencies in the third level system through greater flexibility in working arrangements, in line with the Croke Park Agreement.’ (Fine Gael Election Manifesto)”

DCUSU are calling on all DCU students to join students from every third level college in Ireland and feature in a large-scale student protest outside Government Buildings on November 16th to protect students and their families from becoming the victims of a political U-turn.

We will be sending out details of our plan over the coming days but for now I ask you all to keep November 16th free in your diaries.


In the mean time, Dublin City University Students' Union encourages you to contact your local TD's. You can do so HERE
Thanks,

Ed.

Yippeekayay!!

Does anyone else feel the introduction of fees are a good thing? I e-mailed Ed back asking him why he thinks they are such a bad thing and so am waiting for a response.

(In a bit of a rush so I'll try give more, better reasons why i think they should be brought in when I have more time)

I don't really by into arguments that loads and loads of students will suddenly be forced to drop out of college if fees are brought back in.

I think they would benefit students. It would stop people doing courses "just because" and maybe cause students to think more carefully about what subjects they decide to take on.

Colleges would benefit from increased funding...

What are your views.

Jagle

you do understand most students go to college at 17/18 cos there parents told em too, or forced them to make a choice in a course they dont/wont like and then leave because of that

maybe we should be telling our 17/18 year olds go to college if you know you want to do a specific course, stop sending kids of to courses cos you need a college education

p1akuw47h5r3it

Jagle wrote: »

you do understand most students go to college at 17/18 cos there parents told em too, or forced them to make a choice in a course they dont/wont like and then leave because of that

maybe we should be telling our 17/18 year olds go to college if you know you want to do a specific course, stop sending kids of to courses cos you need a college education

And surely fees would stop this from happening as it's a bigger investment in financial terms for the parents/student, so the parents won't force a student to go and do a course if there is a high probability they'll simple drop out or fail due to a lack of interest...

Jagle

DanDan6592 wrote: »

And surely fees would stop this from happening as it's a bigger investment in financial terms for the parents/student, so the parents won't force a student to go and do a course if there is a high probability they'll simple drop out or fail due to a lack of interest...

WHAT?

no maybe, maybe, stop telling kids

GO TO COLLEGE OR YOULL FAIL IN LIFE

DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO IN COLLEGE? BUSINESS DERP

i mean come on, other then raising costs which would just hurt everyone within the system. and those who wish to go to college in future but wont be able to afford it cos fees are now 5grand a year to keep idiots out

perhaps we need to reevaluate how we parent our kids, and the attitudes we have towards it, stop letting teachers/guidance counselors in secondary schools force kids to sign up to college courses they dont want

p1akuw47h5r3it

Jagle wrote: »

WHAT?

no maybe, maybe, stop telling kids

GO TO COLLEGE OR YOULL FAIL IN LIFE

DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO IN COLLEGE? BUSINESS DERP

i mean come on, other then raising costs which would just hurt everyone within the system. and those who wish to go to college in future but wont be able to afford it cos fees are now 5grand a year to keep idiots out

perhaps we need to reevaluate how we parent our kids, and the attitudes we have towards it, stop letting teachers/guidance counselors in secondary schools force kids to sign up to college courses they dont want

Most people will be able to afford it though. And the only reason everyone goes to college is because it's free and there is no real disadvantage to going, it's seen as something to do by some people.

idiots will be kept out by not getting enough points in there Leaving Cert...

Jagle

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Most people will be able to afford it though. And the only reason everyone goes to college is because it's free and there is no real disadvantage to going, it's seen as something to do by some people.

idiots will be kept out by not getting enough points in there Leaving Cert...

well i cant afford it, and its 2,500 now, so wanna give me some money?

and idiots arnt kept out by points costs, you have no idea how the points system works do ya.

and again everyone doesnt go cos its free, its not free, everyone goes cos there forced to thinking tits the right thing to do


bloodly adults, why ye so silly

thecornflake

Leaving Cert points aren't that good an indication. I knew plenty of people in my course in first year and it was obvious they didn't have what it takes to get through the four years or even the first year.

These are the kind of people that should be stopped. I believe third level should be free but not to all. I think there should be interviews and tests given to see if you are suited to a given course.

I may not be Mr popular after saying this next part but, I also believe that there is too much of a party/mess atmosphere relating to a lot of courses in colleges. I totally understand that it is important to have social nights out, and clubs or societies but not to the large extent that some people take it. Anybody with experience in college can pick out relatively accurately who will pass and who will fail by taking into account the amount of partying ect compared to actual work done by certain students.

College is about education, not pissing away four years. If you want to go on the lash for four years, you pay for it, don't take up a very valuable and underestimated position in third level education.

Louthdrog

Fees come back in and it turns college into a privilege for the upper classes again. I for one simply could not afford any increase on the 2500. Im not from a farm or my parents arent self employed either so unfortunately cant get any grants.
If any fees are introduced, then simply put im out of college. 3 years down the swanny as I head off to Australia or some god forsaken land. This hardly "benefits students". People doing courses for the sake of it is the fault of parents. All that will happen with the intro of fees would be richer children doing courses for the sake of it.

Aoifums

I don't see how fees would stop people doing ****ty courses. They'd still coast into courses they're not that interested in, only now it's because mammy and daddy can pay for them doing it. I'm not sure how sound my logic is, but if there are less people heading into college then the points should drop slightly. So it's easier for people to get in, simply because they can afford it.
To be honest, I feel more sorry for the people in the middle. The ones who can't manage to get a grant but who couldn't afford fees if they were re-introduced. There are quite a few of us out there. So that would be fees + accomodation/living expenses. College isn't cheap, even without the (current) fees.

manlad

DanDan6592 wrote: »

E-mail from Ed Leamy:



Yippeekayay!!

Does anyone else feel the introduction of fees are a good thing? I e-mailed Ed back asking him why he thinks they are such a bad thing and so am waiting for a response.

(In a bit of a rush so I'll try give more, better reasons why i think they should be brought in when I have more time)

I don't really by into arguments that loads and loads of students will suddenly be forced to drop out of college if fees are brought back in.

I think they would benefit students. It would stop people doing courses "just because" and maybe cause students to think more carefully about what subjects they decide to take on.

Colleges would benefit from increased funding...

What are your views.

Are you actually serious, fee's would be a good thing? i've had to to take a year out of college and work at home for the year just so I can afford for my final year in college. Fees are not the only thing that has to be paid, €400 rent per month average and then food and transport??

Ye if yrou parents are well off and afford to be your fees well go ahead and pay them. But for most people this is not the scenario.

You need to wake and smell the coffee.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Jagle wrote: »

well i cant afford it, and its 2,500 now, so wanna give me some money?

and idiots arnt kept out by points costs, you have no idea how the points system works do ya.

and again everyone doesnt go cos its free, its not free, everyone goes cos there forced to thinking tits the right thing to do


bloodly adults, why ye so silly

No I dont. The taxpayer already gives you enough money.

Man that's a pathetic argument, blaming "adults".What age are you!

Ye I do know how the points system works. The system isnt perfect but to say the majority of "less intelligent" people can do better than the majority of "more intelligent"* people is ridiculous

*The terminology I'm using is a bit ridiculous but my point stands. I also recognize that they are different types of intelligence but in this case we're talking about "book smartness".

thecornflake wrote: »

Leaving Cert points aren't that good an indication. I knew plenty of people in my course in first year and it was obvious they didn't have what it takes to get through the four years or even the first year.

These are the kind of people that should be stopped. I believe third level should be free but not to all. I think there should be interviews and tests given to see if you are suited to a given course.

I may not be Mr popular after saying this next part but, I also believe that there is too much of a party/mess atmosphere relating to a lot of courses in colleges. I totally understand that it is important to have social nights out, and clubs or societies but not to the large extent that some people take it. Anybody with experience in college can pick out relatively accurately who will pass and who will fail by taking into account the amount of partying ect compared to actual work done by certain students.

College is about education, not pissing away four years. If you want to go on the lash for four years, you pay for it, don't take up a very valuable and underestimated position in third level education.

See I agree with pretty much all you say. Wouldn't fees stop this party attitude as students would be forced to take more responsibility knowing the financial cost of failing as a result of simply partying all year?

Louthdrog wrote: »

Fees come back in and it turns college into a privilege for the upper classes again. I for one simply could not afford any increase on the 2500. Im not from a farm or my parents arent self employed either so unfortunately cant get any grants.
If any fees are introduced, then simply put im out of college. 3 years down the swanny as I head off to Australia or some god forsaken land. This hardly "benefits students". People doing courses for the sake of it is the fault of parents. All that will happen with the intro of fees would be richer children doing courses for the sake of it.

Firstly this is rubbish. Free fee's hasnt greatly increased the participation of people from disadvantaged areas

In an Irish Times article in November 2010, it was reported that the progression rate of schools in south Dublin to third level education was “more or less 100%”, while many schools from poorer areas of Dublin showed a progression of rate of less than 10%, and that these rates of entry “have hardly changed at all over the 15 years of ‘free fees’”. These statistics make complete sense. The introduction of free third-level education made little difference to those from disadvantaged backgrounds, as they have always been entitled to receive free or partially funded third-level education through grant systems. Thus, the introduction of free third-level education essentially made it free for those who could already afford it – the middle and upper-classes.

http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=5826

I highlighted a point I think is very important.

If you cant get a grant it probably means you can afford to pay fees. Also if you value your 3rd level education so much why not take out a loan.

And again with blaming parents, ridiculous argument. The majority of school leavers are adults, make your own decisions.

I'll also add that if fees are brought back in they will only affect people going into first year so if you are in college already you still can claim free tuition fee's.

Aoifums wrote: »

I don't see how fees would stop people doing ****ty courses. They'd still coast into courses they're not that interested in, only now it's because mammy and daddy can pay for them doing it. I'm not sure how sound my logic is, but if there are less people heading into college then the points should drop slightly. So it's easier for people to get in, simply because they can afford it.
To be honest, I feel more sorry for the people in the middle. The ones who can't manage to get a grant but who couldn't afford fees if they were re-introduced. There are quite a few of us out there. So that would be fees + accomodation/living expenses. College isn't cheap, even without the (current) fees.

I'd agree but a repayment system (i.e student loans or grad tax) would be introduced. 3rd level is supposed to be an investment in your future, not just something you do because your mam or dad want you too, or because your mates are going to college. I think as result of free fee's this attitude is prevalent though.

manlad wrote: »

Are you actually serious, fee's would be a good thing? i've had to to take a year out of college and work at home for the year just so I can afford for my final year in college. Fees are not the only thing that has to be paid, €400 rent per month average and then food and transport??

Ye if yrou parents are well off and afford to be your fees well go ahead and pay them. But for most people this is not the scenario.

You need to wake and smell the coffee.

I'm from a single parent family and worked to pay some of my fees myself so no I'm not well off. However together me and my Mam could just about afford to pay fees (up to a point), therefore do you not think it's fair that we do instead of having other people subsidise my education?

Louthdrog

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Firstly this is rubbish. Free fee's hasnt greatly increased the participation of people from disadvantaged areas

Generally because children in disadvantaged areas dont finish school I would have thought? However society isnt black and white, just because your not "upper class" for want of a better term, doesnt mean you live in a disadvantaged area. Im talking about the modest income household.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

If you cant get a grant it probably means you can afford to pay fees. Also if you value your 3rd level education so much why not take out a loan.

Thats a very idealistic view of the grants system. The grants system is the most corrupt in the country. A fair amount of those receiving grants (I know a few myself) is self employed people or farmers who employ some creative accountants. These people can generally well afford the college package without grants yet claim them driving the requirements to get a grant lower and lower. I know of one person who will proudly tell you that while Daddy paid for their first year of college, they spent the grant on a nice new car.

People like myself who lie just above the line and cannot get a grant really struggle to pay the fees as it is. A grant would go a long long way for me, and believe me 100 percent of it would be spent academically or academically related but yet that money goes towards a farmers daughters new car. Any increase on the 2500 and what am I supposed to do?

As for your "ah shur if you care that much, just take a loan out" attitude, well you really are living in the celtic tiger era if you truely believe that. Firstly, not many places will give a student who works 11 hours a week on near minimum wage a loan and even if I could find one, why would I burden myself with such a headache in a time of financial uncertainty with a loan. When I leave college in 2013 with a very useful teaching degree, who knows what the job market will be like. I cant risk having a huge debt over my head if the prospects of getting a job to pay it back is slim.

Jagle

DanDan6592 wrote: »

No I dont. The taxpayer already gives you enough money.

Man that's a pathetic argument, blaming "adults".What age are you!

Ye I do know how the points system works. The system isnt perfect but to say the majority of "less intelligent" people can do better than the majority of "more intelligent"* people is ridiculous

*The terminology I'm using is a bit ridiculous but my point stands. I also recognize that they are different types of intelligence but in this case we're talking about "book smartness".

I am a tax payer as well, i work to support myself through college and try pay the fees, which are 2,500 up front in september. sorry but who has 2,500 quid sitting around in september, when you have also to pay rent, food, and back to school supplies, and i dunno if you ever have bought a college book, ive yet to buy a book under 100 euros

Im not blaming adults, but adults who have no idea how hard it is, or how it works in the real world make these decisions.

and no the points system doesnt work like that.

anyone can do well, its not a tests of knowledge, its a test of learning off.
I did honours irish, i was the only one in my class who could speak and write irish and hold a normal conversation, everyone else had to just learn off passages of text. and just write them word for word in the exam

Wolfe Tone

Rubbish, I for one will have to drop out, I can barely afford the reg fee.

fox65

I do believe that fees should be brought in. I think the system should be mimicked on the English system but with modifications. In short, students pay but only when they start earning a set amount

To make things easier everything is done through your PPS number. This will make it better in the end. Stream lines everything.

Firstly, currently, the government pays out for university here in ireland. It means free education for everyone but it costs a lot of tax money. The thing is this is essentially a black hole. We dont see any money come directly back from this (ignoring the income tax take, this isnt directly associated).

We need to figure out a way to get some of the money directly back, thus reducing the burdon on our already heavily ladened budget.

• I think that the government should give an unconditional loan/bond to every students, inorder to pay for their university fees. The full whack. This money never changes hands, it goes directly to the colleges, the moment you accept the CAO. (this is how the system is currently)
  This loan will be little to no interest. (at most to cover admin / inflation costs).

• When your finished college, you dont have to pay a penny. And for student x. He is in the exact same boat as if there were free fees. This also applies for the government. They had to pay the money anyway.

As every thing is done through the PPS number, your earnings and amount owed are tracked by revenue commish.

• As soon as a p60 comes into the revenue, with a minimum gross earnings, of say €40000 per annum. You must start paying back your loan/bond. This can be done tax free or before tax. The terms of the loan can be between 6-10 years. This spreads the cost of the loan for the student.

This has many benifeits. The burdon is on the stedent, but only when they are able to pay. There will be a little saving on tax for the student as this comes out tax free. The govenrment gets some 60-80% of its loans back. It is better then none at all.

Looking at the costs.(ballparking)

• on average it costs 5K a year for college. this is for students outside the free fees system. typical 4 year length. This means 20K it costs for any given student.

Now for the loan.

• at 5% interest, flat not compound. this is 21000 owed to the govenrment. spread over 6 years, this is 3500k a year to pay back. or 390euro a month to pay back. You only start paying this back when you are earning a decent wage. Manageable payments.

Further on from this, at the time of the student going to college, the parents/ the student can pay some money towards their fees. This payment is also tax free/before tax. This will inventiveses parents helping out their kids if they can. This allows those who can pay it, to be able to pay it up front. this will reduce the amount of money you need to pay in adult hood.

Currently the government is paying the money anyway. The only cost for the govenrment is the initial outlay of updating systems and some admin staff. If it is done through your PPS number this cost is minimised.

The student gets to choose any course they want, and in real terms it still is free education at time of attendance. The registration fee can also be including in this thus reducing the up front cost for students.

Those who can pay will pay. You can set minimum wage levels for different people. Parents, single parents, married couples etc. This protects the more at risk people from excess payments before they can afford to pay. It reduces the burdon on the tax man. The scheme isnt a money making scheme for the government, it simply reduces the cost for the gov and allows us to contribute to our further education at minimum cost to each party involved.

I think this system can actual work and i wouldn't mind signing up for this if it ment, better primary education or better hospitals

Sod'o swords

I can understand where the OP's coming from, I share somewhat similar views. Being in a course with a massive drop out rate I can quite easily tell you a large percentage of people went to college just because it's now seen as something similar to secondary, just another part of the educational ladder, only you have more fun. The thought people put into course choice is quite small. People go for the sake of it really, if there were fee's it'd save a lot of misused spaces. Of course i'm not saying this applies to everyone and not everyone drops out for that reason.

While it'd be ideal if the grant stayed but realistically I can't see it staying forever. If it is removed we'd just have to do the same as many other countries do and go down the student loan route.

I know people don't want to leave college with a ~28k loan on their heads but compared to say the states we arn't doing half that bad. Perhaps if we adopted systems like Australia where students get low interest loans where it is deducted through their wages over a drawn out period after completely their course. Student loans here as it is have low enough interest, though getting a system like that in this country would be a bit ambitious.

Saying all that i'd protest purely for the fact they're going back on their word and just being the same pack of liars only in a different shade of green...with a tint of red.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Some people are absolutely moronic when it comes to fees... I finished my Leaving Cert with 7 grand in the bank, saved from working my nuts off through 5th and 6th year. I am currently a quarter of my way through 2nd year and I am in debt of approximately 4k and that figure is growing. 3rd year is already looking very unlikely, without any increase on the current costs. I have wanted to do my course for about 5 years now and am determined to finish it, I'm not just in it for the craic or to go drinking or because it's there. :mad:

p1akuw47h5r3it

Louthdrog wrote: »

Generally because children in disadvantaged areas dont finish school I would have thought? However society isnt black and white, just because your not "upper class" for want of a better term, doesnt mean you live in a disadvantaged area. Im talking about the modest income household.

No I'm middle class, I wasnt saying I am disadvantaged, I guess in a sense my area is surrounded by or very close to disadvantaged areas (or areas perceived as such). I'm not rich though.



Thats a very idealistic view of the grants system. The grants system is the most corrupt in the country. A fair amount of those receiving grants (I know a few myself) is self employed people or farmers who employ some creative accountants. These people can generally well afford the college package without grants yet claim them driving the requirements to get a grant lower and lower. I know of one person who will proudly tell you that while Daddy paid for their first year of college, they spent the grant on a nice new car.

People like myself who lie just above the line and cannot get a grant really struggle to pay the fees as it is. A grant would go a long long way for me, and believe me 100 percent of it would be spent academically or academically related but yet that money goes towards a farmers daughters new car. Any increase on the 2500 and what am I supposed to do?

As for your "ah shur if you care that much, just take a loan out" attitude, well you really are living in the celtic tiger era if you truely believe that. Firstly, not many places will give a student who works 11 hours a week on near minimum wage a loan and even if I could find one, why would I burden myself with such a headache in a time of financial uncertainty with a loan. When I leave college in 2013 with a very useful teaching degree, who knows what the job market will be like. I cant risk having a huge debt over my head if the prospects of getting a job to pay it back is slim.

Well the idea around the loan is that a student loan system should be introduced (or a grad tax or some other form of repayment). I know I should have put the following in my OP (it's a pretty poor OP if I'm honest) but I was in a rush: I think that before fees are brought in a form of repayment should be introduced (as I said a student loan system, Grad tax etc.), not simply fees brought back in and the government simply saying to everyone "good luck!".

I agree with you aswell with regards to the grant system. It needs to be drastically reformed, not removed. The problem is like you say, a lot people who need grants don't get them and those who do don't. I have friends who get grants and simply don't need them, but under the grant system qualify ( I also have friends who get grants and do need them). One of my friends last year spent his grant on a holiday to Portugal with his girlfriend. It's outrageous.

Again this needs to be sorted out before fee's are brought back in, or at least a review of the system should begin.

With regards your last line thats the whole conundrum about college. Do you really think it is worth your while in the long to pay X amount to go to college. As I said University education should be about an investment in your future. Some people might not find that investment worthwhile, some will.

Jagle wrote: »

I am a tax payer as well, i work to support myself through college and try pay the fees, which are 2,500 up front in september. sorry but who has 2,500 quid sitting around in september, when you have also to pay rent, food, and back to school supplies, and i dunno if you ever have bought a college book, ive yet to buy a book under 100 euros

Im not blaming adults, but adults who have no idea how hard it is, or how it works in the real world make these decisions.

and no the points system doesnt work like that.

anyone can do well, its not a tests of knowledge, its a test of learning off.
I did honours irish, i was the only one in my class who could speak and write irish and hold a normal conversation, everyone else had to just learn off passages of text. and just write them word for word in the exam

Again a student loan system, or else a Grad tax would be introduced to help pay. Student loans are repayable, for example in England, at 9% of wage earnings through the income tax deductions system when a graduate's wages reach £15,000

Yes adults don't live in the real world! You do know that free fee's only came into existance in 1997, so many of the adults who you claim don't know how the real world works,well, do.

The majority of people who do well in the leaving cert are intelligent. Are you really claiming this is not the case? Yes there are exceptions, but the majority are. The LC isn't perfect, but what examination system is? What would you replace the LC with?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Rubbish, I for one will have to drop out, I can barely afford the reg fee.

See above with regards to student loans.

Sod'o swords wrote: »

I can understand where the OP's coming from, I share somewhat similar views. Being in a course with a massive drop out rate I can quite easily tell you a large percentage of people went to college just because it's now seen as something similar to secondary, just another part of the educational ladder, only you have more fun. The thought people put into course choice is quite small. People go for the sake of it really, if there were fee's it'd save a lot of misused spaces. Of course i'm not saying this applies to everyone and not everyone drops out for that reason.

While it'd be ideal if the grant stayed but realistically I can't see it staying forever. If it is removed we'd just have to do the same as many other countries do and go down the student loan route.

I know people don't want to leave college with a ~28k loan on their heads but compared to say the states we arn't doing half that bad. Perhaps if we adopted systems like Australia where students get low interest loans where it is deducted through their wages over a drawn out period after completely their course. Student loans here as it is have low enough interest, though getting a system like that in this country would be a bit ambitious.

Saying all that i'd protest purely for the fact they're going back on their word and just being the same pack of liars only in a different shade of green...with a tint of red.

Ye when I was reading his e-mail, I was wondering if the main reason for the protest was the fact that the government where going back on their word, but for the majority imo it's that they simply dont want fees.

fox65

Having been in DCU a while, never thought much of the SU. Outside of events ive never seen any real impact made by them.

To be honest, a college student union would be very unpopular if it came out supporting fees. No matter what form. Mr/Miss Student would be outraged.
A repayment system, when people can pay back is the way forward.

Fees are coming back. there is no way around this. either that or the registration fee is going to go up! The SU should back a decent idea rather then let the civil service decide on an unreasonable system while our union are outside protesting.

For anyone who remembers the "credible" campaign and protesting that came around last time. The SU at the time were a joke. and were seen as everyone else in the country at the time. Hopefully someone will have learned from this

p1akuw47h5r3it

fox65 wrote: »

Having been in DCU a while, never thought much of the SU. Outside of events ive never seen any real impact made by them.

To be honest, a college student union would be very unpopular if it came out supporting fees. No matter what form. Mr/Miss Student would be outraged.
A repayment system, when people can pay back is the way forward.

Fees are coming back. there is no way around this. either that or the registration fee is going to go up! The SU should back a decent idea rather then let the civil service decide on an unreasonable system while our union are outside protesting.

For anyone who remembers the "credible" campaign and protesting that came around last time. The SU at the time were a joke. and were seen as everyone else in the country at the time. Hopefully someone will have learned from this

I think all SU's are pretty much a joke, but what happened last year? I wasnt in DCU then?

i90yb8jtdchuwe

I understand where the OP is coming from, there are numerous students who don't deserve the grant because all they use it for is going out, they spend more time out of college than in it! I think that it's a disgrace that these people get the grant and don't even need it, while some of us actually wouldn't be able to go to college without it! I think that fees and grants should be charged individually according to everyones exam results, then there wouldn't be as much of a problem as those actually doing work in college would be provided for while the wasters would be priced out.

Wolfe Tone

Nothing like sentencing someone to a life of debt eh?

Noodleworm

I understand that we have way to many people drifting around colleges, not doing courses suited to them, but what we need to get in place to sort that out is just better education about college, as try to adjust the leaving cert system to better support further higher education.
But we have a system in place to stop people dropping out on a whim already, you only get 1 year of 'free' fees. and grants. If you drop out and start a new course thats full fees.

I understand where the governments coming from too, Countries in a huge debt and a large amount is being spent on our colleges, where it must seem a lot of people spend their time drinking and never finish their courses.

So a nice peaceful protest is a good way to show we do care about our education. The march last year unfortunately had a load of idiots who destroyed the message for the rest of us.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Nothing like sentencing someone to a life of debt eh?

Ye because 20000 would take a life time to pay off. As I said 3rd level should be an investment in your future, you clearly don't view that investment worthwhile

p1akuw47h5r3it

Noodleworm wrote: »

I understand that we have way to many people drifting around colleges, not doing courses suited to them, but what we need to get in place to sort that out is just better education about college, as try to adjust the leaving cert system to better support further higher education.
But we have a system in place to stop people dropping out on a whim already, you only get 1 year of 'free' fees. and grants. If you drop out and start a new course thats full fees.

I understand where the governments coming from too, Countries in a huge debt and a large amount is being spent on our colleges, where it must seem a lot of people spend their time drinking and never finish their courses.

So a nice peaceful protest is a good way to show we do care about our education. The march last year unfortunately had a load of idiots who destroyed the message for the rest of us.

Well in fairness you have around a month of college to decide whether you want to stick with your course Or not. If you didn't have to pay full fees after dropping out, the government would be losing even more money on 3rd level as students could pretty much start a course and drop out as they pls, start another course drop start another etc.

With regards to better education about college, there is enough info about courses out there. Check the colleges website, email department heads, there is open days. What more info do you need?

I think many people choose courses they don't want because going to college is seen as the be all end all. Immaturity may also play a part, I filled out my CAO when I was 16 and entered college at 17. Fast forward 2 years later I'm doing a completely different course and am much happier. What you want to do at 16 17 may be completely different to what you wanna do 2/3 years later. So maybe it would be best if some students, instead of rushing into a decision about col course took a gap year, Lille many do in England. This certainly would have benefitted me. Fees IMO would make students really think about what they want to do, and prevent students choosing unsuitable courses (like I did)

Also how would you adjust the leaving cert?

mcwithcheese

Look. The fees system we currently have is not feasible anymore. For anyone that's had their head buried in the sand, we as a nation have no money. The ECB and the IMF are funding us. They're probably paying a lot of college students' parents' wages.

The possible increase in fees (they may not be increased) is not down to anyone in the government wanting to make college more elitist, they're doing it because they have to. The cuts have to come somewhere, if its not college fees it's something else. There is no easy option and some group are going to lose out. People are still clinging onto the sense of entitlement that pervaded during the Celtic Tiger. A 3rd level education is not a fundamental human right, it's a privilege.

I would also support the introduction of a student loan scheme or grad tax. These systems work in many other countries so why can't we do the same here?

Kavrocks

DanDan6592 wrote: »

With regards to better education about college, there is enough info about courses out there. Check the colleges website, email department heads, there is open days. What more info do you need?

You can read all you like and talk to everybody there is to talk to but until you are in the course and actually realise what is involved in the course you will never know all you need to know about the course.

fox65

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I wasnt in DCU then?

I think it was 2 years ago. Big protests in Town, the su (dont know who was in it) and some DCU people went in and all their signs said simply, and very intelligently F*** Fees. this was their sentiment for the government.This was our students. either the SU at the time was involved or didnt see fit to correct those who were doing this.

Other colleges were laughing at us

I do know one other college had similar signs. so we werent alone

fox65

Kavrocks wrote: »

You can read all you like and talk to everybody there is to talk to but until you are in the course and actually realise what is involved in the course you will never know all you need to know about the course.

Sorry, im not sure what you are saying. The only way you find out is to be in the course.

I disagree. As was said above. there is loads of information up on the web, there are open days. Also there is nothing to stop leaving cert students going into some college lectures. I did it, so did friends. sit down the back of a big first year lecture.

The leaving cert does need to be revised but that is irrevelent in this arguement. the country doesn't have the money, and if it is a bond/grad tax system, you wont be crippled with debt. And i think student unions need to accept this and try to propose these ideas. If we dont engage with the government, a bunch of middle aged career civil servents will decide the fate of education fees!

Does anyone want this?

p1akuw47h5r3it

fox65 wrote: »

Sorry, im not sure what you are saying. The only way you find out is to be in the course.

I disagree. As was said above. there is loads of information up on the web, there are open days. Also there is nothing to stop leaving cert students going into some college lectures. I did it, so did friends. sit down the back of a big first year lecture.

The leaving cert does need to be revised but that is irrevelent in this arguement. the country doesn't have the money, and if it is a bond/grad tax system, you wont be crippled with debt. And i think student unions need to accept this and try to propose these ideas. If we dont engage with the government, a bunch of middle aged career civil servents will decide the fate of education fees!

Does anyone want this?

I agree completely. My biggest gripe with SU's are that they protest these fee's, but dont come up with any alternatives on how to fund 3rd level. In fairness to the DCU SU, they seem like a nicer more intelligent bunch then the TCD SU, where I was last. My disgust at the TCD SU is endless.Idiots!

However with regards fees the DCU SU are no deifferent; all complaining, no new novel ideas.

fox65

DanDan6592 wrote: »

However with regards fees the DCU SU are no deifferent; all complaining, no new novel ideas.

To be seen to be doing something rather then actually doing something.

They have a wealth of knowledge at their disposal in academic staff, im sure some old crack pot profs have new and revolutionary ideas!

Imagine coming to the public forum with all DCUs economic business etc lecturers supporting their idea. Someone will have to sit up and pay attention

Killer_Cheese

I've had a look through everyone's posts here.

The vibe I'm getting is that those that feel students need to take a hit as well as everyone else in the country right now are saying, look to loans or grad taxes.... both of which the Government have already ruled out! (silly in my opinion, they seem to be looking for a magical quick fix to their financial plans)

Those that are expressing that any increase in fees will result in them struggling even more and in cases having to drop out.

Its incredibly clear that there are students for which an increase in fees will not hinder, students for which an increase in fees will make staying in college more difficult and student from whom the increase in fees will result in them not being able to continue their studies.

I know that without the grant that I received I won't have been able to go to college....... actually I should rephrase that.... Even with two part time jobs, without the grant I would have been an unsupportable burden on my family.

I do believe that reform is needed in how our government manages the funding for our third level institutions and the grant scheme. However it seems that positive change never comes over night and the government will be continuing to attempt their quick fix policy and just take another lump sum of cash from every student and their families.

I put it too you.... what alternative would you suggest?

Thunder_Seagull

SU Statement from August:

Dublin, Ireland, Monday 22nd of August 2011:

Dublin City University Students’ Union is calling on the Minister for Education and Skills, Ruairi Quinn, to present his ideas in relation to fees for third level education now that the CAO offers have been released. So far, contrasting stories have been released from different media outlets, none of which seem solid or definite.

The Minister is on record, from before the general election; saying “If elected, I will oppose and campaign against any new form of third level fees; including student loans, graduate taxes and any further increase in the student contribution.”

This country pumps roughly €2 billion per annum into higher education. Third level institutions also receive extensive civic and public support that provides for their philanthropic and business activity.

Ireland at the moment is basically in receivership. Taking this into account, cuts across all sectors including education are imminent. Dublin City University Students’ Union is encouraging the Minister to explore and exhaust every possible option before looking at bringing back third level fees payable by the Student.

Dublin City University Students’ Union President, Ed Leamy, said: “If we take a worldly view on fees, regardless of a nation’s wealth or politics, all expenses of Higher Education are provided by an amalgamation of four sources of funding - Taxpayers, Students, Parents and Institutions/Philanthropists. What Ireland needs to do is to devise a sustainable strategy of cost-sharing, where a fundamental component in such a strategy has to be an efficient scheme for monetary support, in order to provide access for able, but disadvantaged students into Higher Education.”

DCUSU would like to offer the Minister our assistance in helping devise a realistic strategy that will continue to make third level education reachable for the majority of school leavers. The scheme must be affordable to the Students and the State alike, and not jeopardise the quantity of students in our education system or the quality of graduate.

DCUSU feels that there needs to be a process of discourse and interaction; not just between Government and leaders in higher Education, but also the Students.

As we, the students, are the ones that will be affected the most by any change in fees, we ask the Minister to write not just to USI, but to every Students’ Union in the country asking them to forward their ideas to him. There are hundreds of thousands of students in Ireland today. Engagement will be critical to devising a fair and affordable strategy for all.

-Ends-

fox65

Thunder_Seagull wrote: »

SU Statement from August:

Dublin, Ireland, Monday 22nd of August 2011:


This country pumps roughly €2 billion per annum into higher education.

Ireland at the moment is basically in receivership. Taking this into account, cuts across all sectors including education are imminent. Dublin City University Students’ Union is encouraging the Minister to explore and exhaust every possible option before looking at bringing back third level fees payable by the Student.

Dublin City University Students’ Union President, Ed Leamy, said: “If we take a worldly view on fees, regardless of a nation’s wealth or politics, all expenses of Higher Education are provided by an amalgamation of four sources of funding - Taxpayers, Students, Parents and Institutions/Philanthropists. What Ireland needs to do is to devise a sustainable strategy of cost-sharing, where a fundamental component in such a strategy has to be an efficient scheme for monetary support, in order to provide access for able, but disadvantaged students into Higher Education.”

-Ends-

Seems like he is proposing or wants to propose some sort of shared cost. Between parents, students and the government. I am not sure if he is referring to fees or the grant system in the last quoted paragraph.

Killer_Cheese wrote:

I do believe that reform is needed in how our government manages the funding for our third level institutions and the grant scheme. However it seems that positive change never comes over night and the government will be continuing to attempt their quick fix policy and just take another lump sum of cash from every student and their families.

I put it too you.... what alternative would you suggest?

You've pointed out the government has ruled out grad tax. But we should re raise the issue and propose it or something similar as a student body. Get backing of academics, and public figures.

A grad tax would help people. The registration fee would be included so it would make college more immediatly affordable. You only start paying your tax when you can afford. (levels can be adjusted for single income familes and the like.

The sentiment is that the SU is being unrealistic or not being specific enough. "The SU would like to offer our assistance". It is unlikely the government will come calling.

If the SU said these are our ideas, this is the break down, we have the support from this world respected economics guy, from this political expert. The media would take an interest.

My view is protesting is pointless unless we have an alternative to suggest.

Einstein?

Jagle wrote: »

GO TO COLLEGE OR YOULL FAIL IN LIFE

DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO IN COLLEGE? BUSINESS DERP

premdelap11

Might I say that the most 'honourable' student union president architect of the dcu student protest was away in the states :cool:

XPS

premdelap11 wrote: »

Might I say that the most 'honourable' student union president architect of the dcu student protest was away in the states :cool:

He wasn't the only students' union president / sabbatical officer in the country at it - it's an annual event. But if you have an issue about it how about you get it raised at class council.