USI student march: November 16th

LeixlipRed

In before the lock :pac:

Seren_

Such high hopes for this thread :P

The tshirts are red this year.

LeixlipRed

Red like me

DB21

Looking forward to it. Hopefully there'll be no nutcases intent on hijacking this one.

LeixlipRed

Didn't seen any nutcases bar the Gardai last year so unless you're planning on asking them not to come along I'm not sure you'll get your wish.

LeixlipRed

http://corkindependent.com/stories/item/5606/2011-45/Teacher-and-class-occupy-AIB-on-South-Mall

Lucky the Gardai didn't get a sniff of this today or they'd have had that batons out sharpish :pac:

Eric Cartman

DB21 wrote: »

Looking forward to it. Hopefully there'll be no nutcases intent on hijacking this one.

too late

karaokeman

Should be good.

Red is my favourite colour:cool:

tootyflutty

Really good coverage of campus with posters, much better than last year already!

LeixlipRed

Free Education for Everyone (FEE) Maynooth and Maynooth Students' Union (MSU) have announced that they will work together to build for the USI march on Wednesday November 16th. The slogan of Stop Fees, Save the Grant runs parallel to FEE's goal of free education. FEE would encourage all students to attend this march as the government has already indicated that it will increase the student registration fee in December's budget. Students have already faced rises in the reg fee and decreases in the grant and it is clear that the government is more intent on repaying unguaranteed financial speculators than providing a free and modern education system for its citizens.

Last years student march brought tens of thousands of students out onto the streets, severeal thousand of whom supported the occupation of the Department of Finance by FEE. It was clear that a large minority of students were just not content with marching from A to B and listening to a speech from Gary Redmond. FEE welcomes the soundings emerging from USI that mention more direct action revolving around the march. Students who want to engage with FEE's more radical message of free fees, no education cuts should join the FEE Bloc on the day of the march. Students should not be afraid to make themselves heard, too often in this country do people lie down and accepts cuts and austerity as inevitable. These cuts are a direct result of the EU/IMF bailout, closing hospitals, cuts in SNAs in schools, all these things are linked together.

FEE are aware that one march will not defeat fees and educations cuts. We are calling for a sustained campaign of protest against the government. We call on students, lecturers and staff members at all third level institutes to join together with students and staff from second level schools to build a broad campaign against cuts in education. The people united will never be divided.

So FEE and MSU have decided that the best way to build for this march, the best way to get as many Maynooth students into Dublin for the march, is to work together. Anyone who is interested in helping out with leafletting, postering, lecture addresses, etc, can contact Martin (martin.grehan@gmail.com, 0863282745). MSU has arranged with Irish Rail to provide extra trains into Dublin at a subsidised rate, we would encourage everyone to avail of this service.

Free Education for Everyone
http://free-education.info/

Daemos

I don't think this is advertised enough in the Arts Block. Put some posters up for Heaven's sake :pac:

Seren_

Daemos wrote: »

I don't think this is advertised enough in the Arts Block. Put some posters up for Heaven's sake :pac:

Looking forward to seeing the sheer amount of them when I finally make it into college tomorrow

banquo

You can also help out with the campaign by emailing StopFees@nuimsu.com with the subject line 'I'm in'.

We really need people with laptops. We meet every morning at 9am in Arts Block, but you can drop over any time when you've an hour - or even a few minutes - free.

/too exhausted right now to make longer post

Duddy

Arts Block today. Actual photo.

banquo

There may be the odd poster.

You'd swear there was some kind of campaign on.

Seren_

There's a march?

LeixlipRed

Good to see a slogan everyone can work together on. FEE will out in force from Wednesday on, once we get our leaflet back from the leaflet man.

DB21

Yeah, I think I seen a few posters around the place. Don't know if it's enough to get people's attention.

dillo2k10

DB21 wrote: »

Yeah, I think I seen a few posters around the place. Don't know if it's enough to get people's attention.

I think the posters in the arts block really grab your attention.

Won't be able to go though, I have two MCQ tests on the same day.

shannon_tek

I'll be waiting with my gun. Its not really your standard gun but i cant go into detail cause we'll there's Superstition around it and well anyway i'll be there with my red and black and yellow and whistle and flair :pac: see you all on the 16th to.... (Follow this link for more details about what may or may not happen. No aclopops involved)

Seren_

The SU are trying to get departments to cancel lectures and tutorials for the day, so you might be able to go yet I know last year English and Sociology lectures were cancelled, but I suppose that was probably down to the large percentage of lefties making up those departments

Norrdeth

Music have no lectures on Wednesdays! :pac:

DB10

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I think the posters in the arts block really grab your attention.

Won't be able to go though, I have two MCQ tests on the same day.

Same have one at 3pm.

Even if they could just have it in the morning.

Wendero

Again we have a bunch of idealistic college students protesting reality.

Suggest solutions instead. Is it too much asked that people with third level education sit down and discuss solutions instead of rioting/marching?

My solution (though it's of course only a partial solution), that I have brought up before, is to simply introduce fees for students of programs which are unprofitable, economically speaking. We don't need any more geography, history, english or irish majors, so if you want to major in those subjects, pay up! Just look at the unemployment rate among these graduates and you'll get what I mean. It makes no sense for society to first pay for the education of these mostly liberal arts majors and then pay them unemployment benefits when they can't find a job because of their useless degrees.

Put the money you save on that and invest more in engineering, computer science, finance, business etc. That is to say, degrees where you learn skills that are demanded by the labor market.

Imagine a job interview: "Why should we hire you?"
Finance grad: "Because I can help you develop a model for how much debt you should have relative to your equity and by doing so, I can help you save money. I also know how to scientifically evaluate investments"
English grad: "Because I can like, read all these really tick books and everything like, like I can totally quote Shakespeare, and once I wrote an essay proving Romeo is gay"

Who gets hired?

Of course, some people who major in english do get jobs - but they will mostly have nothing to do with their degrees. And if you're not going to have a job that has something to do with your degree, then what was the point with the degree? Yeah, I'm sure you had really fun doing "self-realization", but that's not something you should expect taxpayers to pay for.

LeixlipRed

We should do away with all the professions except yours Wendero. Look at how amazingly brilliant the economists of the present have done for us. Question, how good is your maths Wendero? All this modeling of debt and equity you're doing could you explain to me what the derivative of a function is? I highly doubt you could. Economists are spoofers of the highest order.

And your comments about other subjects are sickening, that sort of neo-liberal agenda will wipe out the idea of educating oneself for the pure pleasure of it. I know so many random things from my general education, you'd love to replace that with only the "useful" stuff. But who decides what's useful? You? Your buddies who want to cut the minimum wage and slash social welfare to make the country more "competitive"? And when things continue to go wrong, whose fault will it be then? Not the arts graduates but the dole scroungers or maybe the immigrants? Or the bears? Why not the people who got us into this situation, the people you hold in such high regard, economists You're so deluded it's almost funny.

Wendero

Economists did NOT get us into this crisis. Politicians who refused to listen to economists did. Media who basically censored anyone who during the boom didn't claim that the boom was going to last forever. Economists were far from perfect, but at the end of the day, economics has done more for humanity than probably any other science (except medicine).

And we do quite a bit of maths in economics, thank you very much! Yes I know how to differentiate a function.

Nothing of what you said changes anything: For the state to subsidise people majoring in geography makes ZERO sense and is a waste of money. Learn for the sake of learning? Yes, please do. But do it in a library, not a university.

dillo2k10

Your Text Here wrote: »

The SU are trying to get departments to cancel lectures and tutorials for the day, so you might be able to go yet I know last year English and Sociology lectures were cancelled, but I suppose that was probably down to the large percentage of lefties making up those departments

The Economics Dept. are refusing to reschedule the MCQ. At least our 1st year Microeconomics lecturer is!

Seren_

It's ironic that you mention how useless a degree in geography is Wendero, when it is probably one of the most useful subjects to have a degree for the forseeable future, what with climate change and so on. Also, just because some people think Arts degrees are laughable doesn't mean they are. There is a serious amount of work involved in them. And why shouldn't people be allowed study what they want?

If higher fees are brought in, my brother will most likely have to leave college, and there is no chance that will my youngest brother will be able to go. I'm lucky; I'm probably finished after this year. This situation is the same in thousands of houses throughout this country. The government will definitely have to spend more money on dole then!

The politicians of this country need to realise that education is a right, not a privilege. Why should only the rich be allowed attend college? It makes absolutely no sense.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Wendero wrote: »

Again we have a bunch of idealistic college students protesting reality.

Suggest solutions instead. Is it too much asked that people with third level education sit down and discuss solutions instead of rioting/marching?.

I was with you until there.

Wendero we have had this discussion before. You cannot pick and choose who has to pay and who doesn't. That's very borderline discrimination. Every degree has it's merits. I know plenty of science grads without jobs and plenty of arts grads with jobs. Some with extremely high importance jobs. Half the judges in this country have arts degrees.

Either everyone pays or no one does. There is no inbetween

LeixlipRed

Wendero wrote: »

Economists did NOT get us into this crisis. Politicians who refused to listen to economists did. Media who basically censored anyone who during the boom didn't claim that the boom was going to last forever. Economists were far from perfect, but at the end of the day, economics has done more for humanity than probably any other science (except medicine).

And we do quite a bit of maths in economics, thank you very much! Yes I know how to differentiate a function.

Nothing of what you said changes anything: For the state to subsidise people majoring in geography makes ZERO sense and is a waste of money. Learn for the sake of learning? Yes, please do. But do it in a library, not a university.

I asked you could you explain the theory behind the mathematics...most finance/economics students can't, I know that from experience. So how exactly do they interpret these models mathematically?

I actually think it's offensive that you, first think economics is a science and secondly but it almost on par with medicine. Of course people of your ilk got us in this situation. Who are the financial speculators? They're neo-liberals like yourself.

You do realise there's more to life than accumulating excess value right? That some people don't care about making profits. And those people are as entitled to an education as you are. Some might say more entitled.

LeixlipRed

dillo2k10 wrote: »

The Economics Dept. are refusing to reschedule the MCQ. At least our 1st year Microeconomics lecturer is!

That's because you're implicitly marching and protesting against everything that person stands for. Last year, IFUT Branch in NUIM release a statement condemning cuts in education. No one from the Economics Dept signed the think. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and all that.

LeixlipRed

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

I was with you until there.

Wendero we have had this discussion before. You cannot pick and choose who has to pay and who doesn't. That's very bodetkibe discrimination. Every degree has it's merits. I know plenty of science grads without jobs and plenty of arts grads with jobs. Some with extremely high importance jobs. Half the judges in this country have arts degrees.

Either everyone pays or no one does. There is no inbetween

While we disagree on whether there should be fees or not, this is a really important point. If you start deciding who pays and who doesn't then you're prioritising one type of education over another. That's discrimination essentially. Who is anyone to say what types of education are more "worthwile" than others. People like Wendero think the only reason people educate themselves is to get a highly paid job. That is not the reason I went to college or continue to educate myself and a large number of people feel the same, no matter what he might think.

XxMCRxBabyxX

LeixlipRed wrote: »

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

I was with you until there.

Wendero we have had this discussion before. You cannot pick and choose who has to pay and who doesn't. That's very bodetkibe discrimination. Every degree has it's merits. I know plenty of science grads without jobs and plenty of arts grads with jobs. Some with extremely high importance jobs. Half the judges in this country have arts degrees.

Either everyone pays or no one does. There is no inbetween

While we disagree on whether there should be fees or not, this is a really important point. If you start deciding who pays and who doesn't then you're prioritising one type of education over another. That's discrimination essentially. Who is anyone to say what types of education are more "worthwile" than others. People like Wendero think the only reason people educate themselves is to get a highly paid job. That is not the reason I went to college or continue to educate myself and a large number of people feel the same, no matter what he might think.

When I was a kid my dad always taught us that you can get a good high paying job no matter what you do as long as you're good at it, you enjoy it and you're determined to do well at it. So that could be economics or bin collecting.

Education isn't just about a job. Those who go to college for that reason will never do as well as those who genuinely enjoy their education.

You can't pick and choose what degrees are "worthwhile". That's a personal opinion for every person.

I asked you this before Wendero and I don't think I got an answer. My degree is Law and History. A "worthwhile" subject and a "useless" subject. Should I have to pay fees?

LeixlipRed While our views on fees are different I think we do have the same outlook on education in general. We both want a proper education for everyone. We just have different views on how to achieve that aim.

LeixlipRed

Well you'd pay half fees of course :pac:

XxMCRxBabyxX

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Well you'd pay half fees of course :pac:

Ah now let's not make this complicated or anything :-P

LeixlipRed

I like this equation, half of zero = zero

Norrdeth

Sorry, not to regress or anything,
but money and medicine didn't create the whole world we live in it's entirety...
I'd like to hear what he thinks about Einstein, Freud, Jung,
Nietzsche(yes I spelt it from memory), Joyce, Beckett, or Stockhausen etc.

Ostrom

Wendero wrote: »

Again we have a bunch of idealistic college students protesting reality.

Suggest solutions instead. Is it too much asked that people with third level education sit down and discuss solutions instead of rioting/marching?

My solution (though it's of course only a partial solution), that I have brought up before, is to simply introduce fees for students of programs which are unprofitable, economically speaking. We don't need any more geography, history, english or irish majors, so if you want to major in those subjects, pay up! Just look at the unemployment rate among these graduates and you'll get what I mean. It makes no sense for society to first pay for the education of these mostly liberal arts majors and then pay them unemployment benefits when they can't find a job because of their useless degrees.

Put the money you save on that and invest more in engineering, computer science, finance, business etc. That is to say, degrees where you learn skills that are demanded by the labor market.

Imagine a job interview: "Why should we hire you?"
Finance grad: "Because I can help you develop a model for how much debt you should have relative to your equity and by doing so, I can help you save money. I also know how to scientifically evaluate investments"
English grad: "Because I can like, read all these really tick books and everything like, like I can totally quote Shakespeare, and once I wrote an essay proving Romeo is gay"

Who gets hired?

Of course, some people who major in english do get jobs - but they will mostly have nothing to do with their degrees. And if you're not going to have a job that has something to do with your degree, then what was the point with the degree? Yeah, I'm sure you had really fun doing "self-realization", but that's not something you should expect taxpayers to pay for.

My only despair is that a third level system produces this level of argumentation. I'll retort with a similar baseless anecdote and suggest that a shrewd interviewer would likely spot the cynical chip on your shoulder before that of a rounded graduate, irrespective of discipline.

In all seriousness - you think all English graduates work as professional literary critics? All philosophers are paid-up logicians?

If you can supply the necessary evidence to support your claim of disproportionate unemployment, I'll gladly recant. As you (hopefully) know, arts degrees are typically shorter than more 'vocational' or technical degrees such as science or medicine, because (academia aside) specialisation is usually sought at postgraduate level, where such graduates may enter fields such as teaching, administration, research, accounting etc.

The attraction of an arts degree (aside from the classical grounding in humanities which i'll assume you consider irrelevant) is the latitude it offers in terms of postgraduate specialisation.

irish_goat

Ah, the Annual "Head into Dublin for a day's drinking, craic and tshirt wearing" Parade.

Call me cynical but when did the government start listening to students?

LeixlipRed

irish_goat wrote: »

Ah, the Annual "Head into Dublin for a day's drinking, craic and tshirt wearing" Parade.

Call me cynical but when did the government start listening to students?

They'll listen to us if people stop having attitudes like your own, cease being apathetic and life becomes so much easier. If 10,000 students camped out in the grounds of Leinster House for a few weeks I'm sure they'd quickly come around to our way of thinking.

irish_goat

LeixlipRed wrote: »

They'll listen to us if people stop having attitudes like your own, cease being apathetic and life becomes so much easier. If 10,000 students camped out in the grounds of Leinster House for a few weeks I'm sure they'd quickly come around to our way of thinking.

That's not going to happen so my point still stands, the march isn't going to make any sort of difference.

I am also not apathetic.

LeixlipRed

No, you're studying Economics too if I recall

No, but something is going to happen. Wait and see

irish_goat

LeixlipRed wrote: »

No, you're studying Economics too if I recall

No, but something is going to happen. Wait and see

I am studying economics yes though don't lump me in with Wendero(no offence!).

Try and behave yourselves this time.

LeixlipRed

I'm not a Garda, hence I was very well behaved last time out. Only student I seen acting that maggot was some drunk twat who was a USI steward. And the USI have something planned. They're going all radical. We said they could hang out with us if they did. It was reminiscent of that scene from the Simpsons, "China still cool, you pay later". Youtube doesn't seem to have it

Daemos

You call it apathetic; I'd call it realistic. Obviously it would be fantastic if it did work, but I don't see it happening, either this year or in the near future

LR, what I want to know is, if things go south like they did last year, will you stick around to defend it or slink away like last time?

Eric Cartman

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I'm not a Garda, hence I was very well behaved last time out.

werent you one of the violent students who decided to have an illegal protest inside a goverment building last time ? if im wrong on that i appologise but i know a few SWP'ers got pulled out of there by the gards

LeixlipRed

Daemos wrote: »

You call it apathetic; I'd call it realistic. Obviously it would be fantastic if it did work, but I don't see it happening, either this year or in the near future

LR, what I want to know is, if things go south like they did last year, will you stick around to defend it or slink away like last time?

What now?? You just called me a coward there, that's a pretty bold statement, exactly what the hell are you on about?

LeixlipRed

Here's last years' thread on the march: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056077520&page=8

Where do I slink off there?

Also, even if I had, which I regularly do when it comes to online arguments, disappeared, you do realise the internet isn't the real world right? That people who disappear from internet conversations may be sick and tired of hearing the same old lies and rubbish directed at them and want a break from it so they just don't bother replying anymore?

In real life you'll find I rarely shy away from confrontation. You can ask Rob about that if you want.

Daemos

Yeah I was just rereading that thread myself, it does seem I misremembered it a bit, sorry about that.

But for the record, I still completely disagree with most of what you said, and still think it doesn't paint you in the best light.

But, a new year, a new start. Let's agree to disagree and move on

Dr. Nguyen Van Falk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

werent you one of the violent students who decided to have an illegal protest inside a goverment building last time ? if im wrong on that i appologise but i know a few SWP'ers got pulled out of there by the gards

in fairness now just because they where involved in the occupying of the dep. of finances doent mean they where involved in violence.

LeixlipRed

Should have perhaps re-read it first before you posted?

And as for your comment about it not painting me in a good light, not sure what that means. I know what I seen that day, several disgusting incidences of violence perpetrated by the Gardai and only one minor incident of violence perpetrated by a drunk USI steward who had nothing to do with FEE. People need to wipe the fog from their eyes when it comes to policing. The police aren't there to keep us safe, they're there to maintain the status quo. Just look at the attacks on Occupy Denver and Occupy Sydney, the macing of a group of women just standing around on Wall Street.

Anyway, as you said, disagree and move on.